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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
new release type "c64dtv release" ?
as shown in the goof info to Space Taxi +DTV-Samplefixed ppl start adding stuff that for one reason or the other are inferior to "real" c64 releases because they were "fixed" to work with the c64dtv - make a new cathegory? |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Yeah, adding some new catagories would be quite nice.
Like MMC64 Fix, IDE64 Fix and C64DTV Demo.
Esspecially the last one will be an issue for 2006.
The DTV is surfacing everywhere in Europe now and I expect some productions for it really soon.
R.
---
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http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
maybe instead of adding a bunch of new cathegories the database could be reorganized into having main- and sub- cathegories... |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 407 |
I think DTV qualifies as a new "platform", so an own category for it is justified. But IDE and MMC are extensions to the c64; if they have a category, then there could be one for the AR, RR, FC3, 1581, FD2000... naaah. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I think DTV qualifies as a new "platform", so an own category for it is justified. But IDE and MMC are extensions to the c64; if they have a category, then there could be one for the AR, RR, FC3, 1581, FD2000... naaah.
why one for multifunctional cartridges? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
maybe making it "attributes" which are attached to every release would be a better idea.... so for all the stuff mentioned (ar,fc3,mmc64,ide64,4player adapter, reu etc blabla) there would be a checkbox in the release edit dialog.... that way you could later easily search for all mmc64 fixes, or all programs that support a reu...etc (i sometimes wish i could do that for stuff that uses the ar ram) |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
I like Groepaz idea of main- and subcategories. Would be great to have the checkbox with all the REU proggies... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: maybe making it "attributes" which are attached to every release would be a better idea.... so for all the stuff mentioned (ar,fc3,mmc64,ide64,4player adapter, reu etc blabla) there would be a checkbox in the release edit dialog.... that way you could later easily search for all mmc64 fixes, or all programs that support a reu...etc (i sometimes wish i could do that for stuff that uses the ar ram)
Great idea! |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
"MMC64 fixes" here so far have been onefiled games. Should all one-file demos, tools, cracks etc. be tagged as MMC64 & IDE64 fixed? If that's the case then I want C2N232 & Silversurfer fixed categories as well...
What I'm trying to say is that releases shouldn't be tagged as "XYZ compatible" just because they manage to work with that hardware without crashing, they should utilize it as well. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: "MMC64 fixes" here so far have been onefiled games. Should all one-file demos, tools, cracks etc. be tagged as MMC64 & IDE64 fixed? If that's the case then I want C2N232 & Silversurfer fixed categories as well...
What I'm trying to say is that releases shouldn't be tagged as "XYZ compatible" just because they manage to work with that hardware without crashing, they should utilize it as well.
Good point.
So to make a long story short, only a "C64DTV Demo" category would be needed.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
Quote:
So to make a long story short, only a "C64DTV Demo" category would be needed.
i dont agree with that. that particular version of space taxi for example has a sample-fix specially for the dtv (and it sounds worse than the original on a real c64). also a checkbox "works on mmc64" or "works on ide64" makes equal sense to me as "uses reu" or "uses ar". it doesnt *matter* if it accidently works with mmc64 because its onefiled anyway here - what matters is the additional value of having the thing tagged like this for easier searching. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Quote:
So to make a long story short, only a "C64DTV Demo" category would be needed.
i dont agree with that. that particular version of space taxi for example has a sample-fix specially for the dtv (and it sounds worse than the original on a real c64). also a checkbox "works on mmc64" or "works on ide64" makes equal sense to me as "uses reu" or "uses ar". it doesnt *matter* if it accidently works with mmc64 because its onefiled anyway here - what matters is the additional value of having the thing tagged like this for easier searching.
Absolutely agree here. Notice some things, though:
It's most likely to be named "CDTV Fixed" and then the quesion wether it's the PAL or the NTSC CDTV and wether the fix breaks the compatibility/quality on the real machine or not, as in example of "Space Taxi".
I do not hope that such examples will be the rule. A fix should not break something for the real hardware!
"Demo" as you suggested would mean for me a demo that only runs on the DTV (which sounds bad to me again). |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
Just a little nitpick here... but DTV != CDTV.
It appears the best suggestions have come from Gropey.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Yeah, fully agree with Groepaz' suggestions, very good idea! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
Quote:
It's most likely to be named "CDTV Fixed" and then the quesion wether it's the PAL or the NTSC CDTV and wether the fix breaks the compatibility/quality on the real machine or not, as in example of "Space Taxi".
it could be made like this
mmc64 []supported []required []fixed []breaks
- supported means additional features are utilized
- required means the device is required for the program to work at all
- fixed indicates that the release was explicitly fixed to work with the device
- breaks indicated that the release does not/no more work (perfectly, or at all) with this device
so for that spaceinvaders release
stock c64 [x]supported []required []fixed [x]breaks
c64dtv [x]supported []required [x]fixed []breaks
pal [x]supported []required []fixed []breaks
ntsc [x]supported []required []fixed []breaks
...you get the idea (someone else might have a better system anyway :=P)
Quote:
I do not hope that such examples will be the rule. A fix should not break something for the real hardware!
"Demo" as you suggested would mean for me a demo that only runs on the DTV (which sounds bad to me again).
it will happen i am sure. the c64dtv is a completely new platform (to me atleast) that just happens to be somewhat c64 compatible. plays pretty much in the same area as the scpu - just that soon a lot more ppl will have a c64 than there are scpu owners :)
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Quote:
It's most likely to be named "CDTV Fixed" and then the quesion wether it's the PAL or the NTSC CDTV and wether the fix breaks the compatibility/quality on the real machine or not, as in example of "Space Taxi".
it could be made like this
mmc64 []supported []required []fixed []breaks
- supported means additional features are utilized
- required means the device is required for the program to work at all
- fixed indicates that the release was explicitly fixed to work with the device
- breaks indicated that the release does not/no more work (perfectly, or at all) with this device
so for that spaceinvaders release
stock c64 [x]supported []required []fixed [x]breaks
c64dtv [x]supported []required [x]fixed []breaks
pal [x]supported []required []fixed []breaks
ntsc [x]supported []required []fixed []breaks
...you get the idea (someone else might have a better system anyway :=P)
Quote:
I do not hope that such examples will be the rule. A fix should not break something for the real hardware!
"Demo" as you suggested would mean for me a demo that only runs on the DTV (which sounds bad to me again).
it will happen i am sure. the c64dtv is a completely new platform (to me atleast) that just happens to be somewhat c64 compatible. plays pretty much in the same area as the scpu - just that soon a lot more ppl will have a c64 than there are scpu owners :)
Your idea of making the releases is very good! Thanks for the suggestion and the care.
The difference is, you can just buy a super CPU and plug it in, a DTV you have to modify first to get it to the way it works the way required. OK, there are people and so who offer the modification, but question is for how long, and I admit, I am not a technical and soldering freak to make hardware modifications, hehe.
Other than that, it's possible in my eyes, to keep the release in a way it still works as normal on an original stock C64, just include both routines or whatever in the release and let users choose from it. I have seen game cracks allowing to run on NTSC and PAL this way. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote:Other than that, it's possible in my eyes, to keep the release in a way it still works as normal on an original stock C64, just include both routines or whatever in the release and let users choose from it.
That's easier said than done; the DTV has a 8 bits per plane mode and the possibility to change the color palette.
So some effects/demo's won't run on a stock C64 in the near future.
This said, the PAL (V2) DTV has the 8bpp mode and the NTSC version doesn't.
Geez...
R.
---
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http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Quote:Other than that, it's possible in my eyes, to keep the release in a way it still works as normal on an original stock C64, just include both routines or whatever in the release and let users choose from it.
That's easier said than done; the DTV has a 8 bits per plane mode and the possibility to change the color palette.
So some effects/demo's won't run on a stock C64 in the near future.
This said, the PAL (V2) DTV has the 8bpp mode and the NTSC version doesn't.
Geez...
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/
So explain a bit what this is about please?:
The King Is Back
Thanks :)
It scares me, I really prefer a real C64 and I hope most of the C64 sceners still will! |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: So explain a bit what this is about please?:
The King Is Back
Thanks :)
It scares me, I really prefer a real C64 and I hope most of the C64 sceners still will!
I haven't got a modded DTV yet, so I trust on other ppl observations; you see some moving rasterbars which use a modified palette. Don't know what's up with the pic but I guess it has something to do with the modded palette too.
It was coded by a German guy called Roland (no, not this Roland (me) because I'm dutch ;-) and got it from a german forum.
Don't know if "Roland" should be added to CSDB as a scener. I could send him a mail tho.
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
So, is it a Crest demo by Xbow or not? |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I haven't got a modded DTV yet, so I trust on other ppl observations; you see some moving rasterbars which use a modified palette. Don't know what's up with the pic but I guess it has something to do with the modded palette too.
It was coded by a German guy called Roland (no, not this Roland (me) because I'm dutch ;-) and got it from a german forum.
Don't know if "Roland" should be added to CSDB as a scener. I could send him a mail tho.
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/
Thanks!
Well, he should be added as a scener then, since he did scenish activities this way. please ask him also for a screenshot and adding him to CSDb, etc :)
New C64 sceners are always welcome, too ;) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1724 |
Quote: I haven't got a modded DTV yet, so I trust on other ppl observations; you see some moving rasterbars which use a modified palette. Don't know what's up with the pic but I guess it has something to do with the modded palette too.
It was coded by a German guy called Roland (no, not this Roland (me) because I'm dutch ;-) and got it from a german forum.
Don't know if "Roland" should be added to CSDB as a scener. I could send him a mail tho.
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/
It's Crossbow/Crest, so he's already in the database. Maybe you should have examined it a bit more thoroughly? ;)
I corrected the credits and added a trivia with the text found in the demo.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: It's Crossbow/Crest, so he's already in the database. Maybe you should have examined it a bit more thoroughly? ;)
I corrected the credits and added a trivia with the text found in the demo.
I hope that anybody will anyway add a screenshot :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1724 |
Quote: I hope that anybody will anyway add a screenshot :)
It looks like crap in VICE, is there an emulator for C64DTV stuff?
If not could anyone with a C64DTV take a photo of the demo, please?
:) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
There's no emulator yet, chances are there won't be in the immediate future too because the DTV is quite a complex likkle beast and, from what i understand, when it's in "fast" mode with some features disabled it goes a metric fuckload faster than a stock C64. Because of that VICE with it's hard-wired CPU speed can't touch it in the same way VICE still can't do C128 or 264 emulation correctly 'cos the speed is shot when the hardware goes to 2MHz or is running in fast mode respectively.
And it just *had* to bloody be Xbow doing the first demo didn't it? Couldn't let us mere mortals have a go before he made us look silly, ooooh no... [comedy muttering, still haven't got a modded DTV yet!]
Oh... as for the comments about it not being a real C64, neither is a C128 but we have Risen From Oblivion in the Db so if that gets an entry... |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1724 |
@T.M.R: Atleast you can buy one! It seems like Argos U.K is the only one that has the PAL V2 in stock, and they won't sell to me as I want it delivered to Sweden. (UK mainland delivery only.) :( |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
Is there a PAL V1 btw? no idea what i bought then :]Yesterday at Praxis in Holland (some big shop with garden stuff, wood, metal, bricks etc). that shop has storded plenty of them..
http://www.praxis.nl/upload/8ee0160107313b7f57015ad6.jpg
the company logo on the stick differs from this photo, it was something like lobsterware (something like that) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
All PAL units are V2, i think i paid only marginally less for my unmooded PAL than they're doing modded ones (unless the postage is horrific...!)
Easy way to spot a V2; the Games series are multi loads rather than broken into seperate events. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: It's Crossbow/Crest, so he's already in the database. Maybe you should have examined it a bit more thoroughly? ;)
I corrected the credits and added a trivia with the text found in the demo.
*lol*
No, i didn't peek in the memory at all.
Cool that this has been cleared up.
@Shake: I bought my 2 DTV's at the Praxis the day before yesterday.
They have *a lot* in stock!
Btw, the pic used in the advert is a NTSC DTV.
R.
---
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http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1724 |
Aaargh! :P I really want one of those! I which I was Dutch! (or atleast in the Netherlands...) Does anybody know a place a webshop (or a place in Stockholm) that has them in stock and will ship to Sweden? |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Why not ask Scout?
Maybe if you do it real nice,he gets you one and sends it to you.. ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I just bought one @ the Praxis as well, although the sales-woman told me that tomorrow it was the last day they were sold. Only six left here (five now) ;)
Guess I gotta make a call to Jayce/Focus, our hardware-guru :) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
Well... to be correct here, this isn't the first demo done on C64DTV. It might be the first publicly released demo, but not the first demo. The first "real demo" was/is done by Style (US group) - same guys that make Turbo Assembler mod for DTV. I'm also not counting the little test demos that Six/Style released back when DTV was first released.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Well... to be correct here, this isn't the first demo done on C64DTV. It might be the first publicly released demo, but not the first demo. The first "real demo" was/is done by Style (US group) - same guys that make Turbo Assembler mod for DTV. I'm also not counting the little test demos that Six/Style released back when DTV was first released.
Please upload them to CSDb and if they are already in CSDb, post the links here. Thanks in advance! :) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
Majority of them are available for down directly from http://dtvhacking.info
...and everyone should be aware these are little test projects mainly.
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Hey, i just uploaded a proper Screenshot of "The King is back" and added DTV in brackets to the title so people don't try running it on their real c64s... |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Hey, i just uploaded a proper Screenshot of "The King is back" and added DTV in brackets to the title so people don't try running it on their real c64s...
Thanks! :)
Now I wish somebody would do the same with Moloch's mentioned DTV releases so that CSDb gets more complete |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Done. -> Cblast
Don't have any screenshots from these other DTV-demos here though: http://orrville.net/dtvhacking/demos.zip |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Done. -> Cblast
Don't have any screenshots from these other DTV-demos here though: http://orrville.net/dtvhacking/demos.zip
Thanks, I just saw that =) Do you think adding the others with screenshot still is possible?
Because I wonder how NTSC demos for DTV work on PAL DTV or whatever you have there. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
I've added a few more...
Palette
Palette
(screenshot in archive - my image compression kungfu sucks)
Color Bars
Color Bars
Linear Scroll
Linear Scroll
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I've added a few more...
Palette
Palette
(screenshot in archive - my image compression kungfu sucks)
Color Bars
Color Bars
Linear Scroll
Linear Scroll
Thanks!
I have converted it to .gif. It looks very close to the original .PNG. :) |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1666 |
I guess it's about time I write something here in the thread.
If people want an extra release type "c64dtv" I can do that for you right away. But then there should also be a lot of other types perhaps, as it have been mentioned.
In stead the right way to go would be to make subtypes or checkboxes as has also been sugested here.
Internally in CSDb similar things have also been discussed, the way releases are categorised.
The main conclusion was that the basic database-design for this was way to naive, and it would take a lot of db-hacking to make it work correctly. That is not nice, and not easy to do, so it have been kinda dropped. :(
But there have been some new discussions about CSDb V2 here recently, so if that ever happens, it would for sure be one of the things that should be implemented. :)
So the simple question that remains: Do you want a c64dtv release-type and have what may follow, or not?
No checkboxes and subtypes etc. for the moment.
(There is always the trivia and production notes etc. to write stuff in. ;) ) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1724 |
Quote: I guess it's about time I write something here in the thread.
If people want an extra release type "c64dtv" I can do that for you right away. But then there should also be a lot of other types perhaps, as it have been mentioned.
In stead the right way to go would be to make subtypes or checkboxes as has also been sugested here.
Internally in CSDb similar things have also been discussed, the way releases are categorised.
The main conclusion was that the basic database-design for this was way to naive, and it would take a lot of db-hacking to make it work correctly. That is not nice, and not easy to do, so it have been kinda dropped. :(
But there have been some new discussions about CSDb V2 here recently, so if that ever happens, it would for sure be one of the things that should be implemented. :)
So the simple question that remains: Do you want a c64dtv release-type and have what may follow, or not?
No checkboxes and subtypes etc. for the moment.
(There is always the trivia and production notes etc. to write stuff in. ;) )
As there already are a couple of C64DTV releases added as C64 Misc, it's probably best to give in and create a type for it ;).
There will be even more confusion soon when C64DTV V2 productions start to appear, but I guess will discuss that when it happens...
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: As there already are a couple of C64DTV releases added as C64 Misc, it's probably best to give in and create a type for it ;).
There will be even more confusion soon when C64DTV V2 productions start to appear, but I guess will discuss that when it happens...
all PAL DTVs are version 2. NTSC DTVs version 2 will start soon then one will have version 1 and 2 for NTSC but only for NTSC. That's how far I know it.
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1724 |
Quote: all PAL DTVs are version 2. NTSC DTVs version 2 will start soon then one will have version 1 and 2 for NTSC but only for NTSC. That's how far I know it.
That's how I understand it is aswell. The prods added so far are all C64DTV V1 (NTSC) releases. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: That's how I understand it is aswell. The prods added so far are all C64DTV V1 (NTSC) releases.
hmm, so it should not possible to flag a PAL version 1 release, I just forgot that sentence in my post, haha - sorry, without this sentence it just is a rephrase of what you actually said, my bad |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
NTSC DTV2 is already out but under the disguise of a game unit called "GM Hummer Steering Wheel Game". Basically DTV2 hardware with a steering wheel and a custom game coded by Macbeth, dW, and Six. This unit was sold nationwide in Radio Shack stores.
DTV2 is NTSC/PAL unit of course, has a built in switch. Of course the output is black/white.
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
If this DTV thing is going to be like..
Version ad infinitum,I don´t give a freeballzz..
The beauty of C64 was that everything worked on it.
(The SID may cause problems and Pal/NTSC is an issue,
but IT WORKED!)
I hope the DTV will be able to settle on ONE standard. ;) |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: If this DTV thing is going to be like..
Version ad infinitum,I don´t give a freeballzz..
The beauty of C64 was that everything worked on it.
(The SID may cause problems and Pal/NTSC is an issue,
but IT WORKED!)
I hope the DTV will be able to settle on ONE standard. ;)
A lot of stuff needed patching or either crashing. So a new thing - DTV 1/2 PAL/NTSC fixing scene could appear again like in the good old N`TSC/PAL time for games |
