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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
Downloads and votes and the public
We in offence got this mail, and also several others like it in meaning... I think this is something we could have a talk about as it is something that is a bit important. It really is, because there are so many people out there actually liking the things we do create. CSDB is a hangaround place where we get away from the rest of the world maybe but could we do something with this in future?
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Hey,
can you forward this to Ole Marius?
He said that "hundreds of people download tunes to check them out, but only 20 or so care to vote" about the Highscore Ballad Compo. Well ... I know why! You can't get an account at CSDb unless you can call yourself active in the scene, so lots and lots and lots of people out there will never have an account (= can't vote) because they don't know how to code / to make a SID / whatever. And since I don't have an account either, I can't tell him that ... :)
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Just something I think is important to talk about.... |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187 |
CSDb is not lemon64. I even wish there would be a more strict selection before admitting random ppl that doesn't understand this is not a generic c64 forum |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
A bit naive to think there are hundreds of potential voters out there for non-mainstream stuff. ;-) Yes, you can get a lot of attention when you open gates, but you won't achieve what this site did and does every day/month/year.. getting old sceners active again, etc. Most of people return back thanks to the fact that the stuff they get here is the stuff they loved back in time. The people understand you they talk the same language, so to speak. Yes some sceners are active on Lemon, and yes, Lemon was able to discover some cool people relevant for scene too, but majority of it's visitors don't give a crap about active c64 scene. OR at least they did not when I was more active around it. Did it change?
And yes. What iAN said. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
I think PAL is absolutely correct. There is a much larger audience out there than just the ever decreasing set of same old names and faces on CSDB.
there are oldschool names who appear on Lemon and indeed on facebook who have their own entries listed on here and quite frankly won't set foot in the place.
the solution I would have thought is that if this place is so far up it's own backside being "leet" then move all the compos over to Lemon, whose voting system is far more suited to competition voting than the csdb one.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
Okay, I'm willing to change my opinion, point me to the creative art compo (music, gfx, demo, intro) organised at Lemon, having at least over 100 voters and at least 20 entries in the compo. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
tell you what, why don't you try a compo on there and see if you get more than the 100 who can actually vote on it on csdb?
Of course it would have to be a current "scener" that organises it because anyone else couldn't post on here to advertise it could they? :)
entry numbers will similar tho won't they?
simply because if you enter you become one of the chosen ones by virtue that you are now a "scener"
I find it quite bizarre that on CSDB people who have typed in some text or downloaded an unprotected digital copy of a new game and passed it to someone else via email to "crack" are "sceners" and can vote, but rabid c64 fans who know more than I do about it's history and games and download and BUY everything they can are somehow not worthy. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
STE'86: you are absolutely hard and stright on feedback, I love that! And this is the discussion I wanted as I also think a lot of people really like the things we do... example... I have a lot of clients in my company, and they actually write me e-mails about the last c64 demo we did and so on... there are a brave new world outside the gates of CSDB and they do also love the old computer stuff!
Sometimes they even seem more into it than the ones on here and they see the productions in another light and not only like nerded stuff tech vise... I kinda love that too... they like something for the mood og humor og idea and not like... but why did you use only 7 sprites when you have 8? doohhhh..... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
+1 for letting more people in here. |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
What Oswald said. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
STE'86: I'm not interested in philosophical debates. I believe in numbers and facts. That's why I asked if there actually WAS some compo organised that could be taken as a case study or how to put it.
Yes, organising compo directly on CSDB is not a good idea, as it doesn't have infrastructure for such purpose (yet). You can use it the way it was used with the "Highscore power ballad compo", but as you correctly pointed out, it is closed for wider audience. But it doesn't matter for me, because I organise(d) compos outside CSDB.
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And as far as brave new world is concerned. There are the tools and services for maintream, everyone is allowed to explore the possibilities.
Goto80 does, and he does quite interesting things although that last performance "A musical performed with C64s, a band, and PETSCII visuals. World first! http://youtu.be/fQEw602X6F0 " was a bit hard to digest (for me).
Maybe 0,1% of stuff that gets done have chance to reach (more or less) mainstream audience and go viral (although combined media production has higher potential than pure C64 excecutable stuff). All it needs is to use the existing mainstream channels available (youtube, facebook, soundcloud.. whatever).
I don't believe general population will give a fuck about C64 scene database, community whatever you name it when it get's less strict towards building of the user base (although I think it wouldn't hurt if having account here and posting to forums would be easy, but getting access to editing of database would need moderators approval). And if by any chance general population gets more interested towards it, I'm sure the feelings of C64 scene will be rather mixed. What I hate(d) about lemon forums was tons of people talking about C64 instead of doing anything with it. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
Quote:why don't you try a compo on there
or why dont YOU ?
Quote:I find it quite bizarre that on CSDB people who have typed in some text or downloaded an unprotected digital copy of a new game and passed it to someone else via email to "crack" are "sceners" and can vote, but rabid c64 fans who know more than I do about it's history and games and download and BUY everything they can are somehow not worthy.
a) the least important thing on csdb are votes b) the most important thing on csdb are the people who actually create or do something with their c64
and MY vote still goes for removing all the voting crap alltogether, its useless and hardly ever shows decent results anyways. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
ok, lets ignore the votes and say...
they aren't allowed to POST either.
so anyone who may be actually interested in doing something c64 related can't talk to anyone directly on here because they haven't already done something on the c64.
catch 22. you can't actively encourage new blood if they can't talk to you.
now maybe some of you were abducted by aliens early in life and empowered with a full working knowledge of the c64.
The rest of us however gained experience and knowledge in the 80's by TALKING to people actually doing it. like for instance COMPUNET :).
lets face it the forums on here are hardly rip roaring busy and could do with a shot in the arm.
and finally yes forums do get many many people who talk about doing things and never do/finish them Lemon is full it atm, and this place has its fair share. the database is full of half done game demos from the last 25 years too.
is a 2 tier access system possible with the current setup? posting and voting but not database access? that would solve everyones objections I think |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
Quote:they aren't allowed to POST either.
wrong. you assume too much. actually we are not very strict when it comes to granting access and everyone who is able to point out that he is actually interested in doing something with his c64 (other than downloading games and playing them) gets an account. actually most of the time the reason for turning down a signup request is that the person gave a self description that reads like "OMG LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!". someone writing "i am interested in coding a game and need to talk to someone for advice" will almost certainly get an account too. (and there have been a few such cases in the recent past) and someone writing "OMG I AM ELITE CRAXXOR FROM 1988 LET ME IN I NEED AXXS!!!" will certainly not if that is all he says =P |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
ah right, i'll take your word for it then and just tell Paul Carter (logikstate) who is a current games developer and retro nut, that he was just unlucky or typed the wrong phrase into his 4 or 5 requests to join CSDB.
CreamD however was nice enough to let him in when I asked. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
"posting and voting but not database access?"
Hooray :) we already have that. Images get more votes than downloads quite easily :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
believe it or not, for some reason some people are unable to give a proper selfdescription even after explicitly being told what to write =P that indeed happened more than once (and we cant really do anything about it either).
and please get your facts straight. single mod can not let anyone in, its the same procedure always. and the person you are mentioning applied for an account at the beginning of 2011 and was granted access _immediatly_ (and his selfdescription was fine). then he applied *again* in the middle of 2012 for another account, and *that* wasnt granted access, simply because we dont allow double accounts. and if i interpret the logs correctly, at this point something with the site code screwed up - because i cant see details on that second account at all =P so thats probably why it took longer than normal. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
thanks for that then. thats all cleared up now. and PAL can now tell his people what they have to do to get access. We'll see how it goes now. cheers |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quote: believe it or not, for some reason some people are unable to give a proper selfdescription even after explicitly being told what to write =P that indeed happened more than once (and we cant really do anything about it either).
and please get your facts straight. single mod can not let anyone in, its the same procedure always. and the person you are mentioning applied for an account at the beginning of 2011 and was granted access _immediatly_ (and his selfdescription was fine). then he applied *again* in the middle of 2012 for another account, and *that* wasnt granted access, simply because we dont allow double accounts. and if i interpret the logs correctly, at this point something with the site code screwed up - because i cant see details on that second account at all =P so thats probably why it took longer than normal.
What about WEC mate?
Let the poor bastard back in! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
that is one of these cases where i'd totally agree IF we could make it so people can post but not screw up the db =P |
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G-Fellow
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 103 |
Talking about getting fresh blood to the C64 scene, mentioned above. Someone could make here in the CSDb a "How to start your C64 szene career" with alot links to most useful tools for coders, graphicians and musicians. Also links to descriptions of several tools such a link to the C64 http://codebase64.org/doku.php Also with hints for the best tools in use with the a C64 Emulator, for example which Cartridge tool and hints to the best hardware tools, for example 1541Ultimate-II.
This "How to start" could be above in the Help section or it get a own area. Maybe there could be made a Beginner and Advanced "How to start".
Than every possible new scener can create his own first C64 product, a PC graphician can use several tools to make C64 graphics, a C++ coder could learn coding on the C64 and a PC musician could learn some of the C64 music-editors. The people could than create directly a own product and release it at the CSDb and get the full C64 szene CSDb account.
If this not already exist somewhere... |
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OMP
Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 10 |
Ah, they're not voting cause they can't... Of course. Never thought about that. Not sure I knew either. So I can't create profiles to vote all my shit up?
Those are all interesting questions raised here. Should perhaps be able to have guest members of some kind. But as mentioned this isn't Lemon or Pouet or what ever. Hmmm
Hmmmm
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Hmmmm indeed.
PAL wants to let all of his friends in here so they can vote for his stuff.
STE wants to allow access to a hitherto unknown phalanx that is too refined for CSDB.
DANE wants public votes. Or no votes at all. I think it's been at last two months since we had that old thread bumped.
And browsing the thread I see that almost everybody got what they wanted. Except me. Bummer. |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
And I want 100% anonymous votes in competitions or/and without the possibility to change it whenever a vote is given. Actually I'd like to see the vote statistics hidden as long as the voting is going on as well. And to get rid of a little bit of the downvoting we can do like they do in ski jumping: Remove the highest and lowest votes and make an average of the rest... or something like that :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
Kristian, you will get your 100% anonymous voting (and 100% anonymous entries) in upcoming C64.sk Sid Compo. ;-)) |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187 |
The way the competition was started here is actually an abuse of CSDb, strictly speaking. This is a database where to document releases and party/compos held somewhere else, and votes on single entries here shouldn't be mixed with the compo votes, they don't reflect those in the actual compo in an absolute manner, because people can still vote entries after the compo ended and results published. CSDb in other words, isn't actually the place to hold compos, but only to document them. Hence, the request for changing how things work here to make better compo voting, shouldn't get any consequences. Make a site, put stuff there and manage your voting as you want. my 2 cents. |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
Creamd, looking forward to it :) |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
Ian, that's true, but maybe CSDB could expand a little to cover those things as well? I mean, since (some) of the active people are already here, why "chase" them elsewhere to have their fun? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
The place is visited and motivates it's community to be creative, so it would be useful to have tools for online compo organising. There is a lot of stuff that could be done to move this site to next level. Allowing guest accounts (for non-editor) is one of them. Ditching of anonymous voting another (hi Dane ;-) |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
I think you are getting a bit to blue-screen nerdy a lot of times... I just thought I would post that email here because I think it is important to have a talk on these matters... It is no personal thing from me? I do not even know that guy... and all I said were that even MY PAYING CLIENTS, THE ONES THET PAY FOR MY HOURS AT WORK do watch the c64 demos on youtube and think it is really great... And to me that is really exciting... it is just outstandingly cool. This is not people sitting at the room in their parents home, it is grown people of both gender thinking these rear things are cool... it is even people that do not know the machine at all... but they like the style and retro and sound or different things... it is worth taking into consideration for our community and that were my thought on posting something about it here.
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
I wouldn't mind non-anonymous voting, but only if vote statistics are disabled until voting is over and as long as you are not able to change your vote. I think that might prevent strategic voting a bit. Of course, you can vote strategically, but you know you will be busted for it once the voting is over. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
...Ohhh... and forgot... the ones they seem to enjoy the most all of my artist friends or clients and such... are the ones captured live with cam on screen with the audience sound... they did that! It is like a cool thing... just the noise in the room and the hard hitting demos and applouses and so on... I think that is really cool to show them... not like movies with machenes and sweety people likeus picking our noses and scratching our arses but the real tension feeds from the compos... LOVE IT!!! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
PAL: Very interesting point! The demos with crowd sounds in background are similar to laughs in sitcoms, it transfers the positive emotion from audience onto watcher.. a marketing idea worth exploiting actually ;-))
Kristian Røstøen: that's the way how the votingh should be done. Releasing of entries on fly, voting phase anonymous and not revealed until the voting phase comes to the end. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
Quote:Allowing guest accounts (for non-editor) is one of them. Ditching of anonymous voting another (hi Dane ;-)
if you are planning to remove me and have me put all effort into removing all my work i have put into the db, then yes. and i am not kidding there =P
i still dont get the problem though. as much as csdb isnt a releases site, its not made for organizing compos. and i dont even want to imagine what happens if such infrastructure would be there - it seems about as useless and annoying as "polls" on lemon. (that also brings us to the question: why wasnt that compo organized on lemon afterall? then you get public voting and anonymous votes. would it be too easy?)
i think i understand now why se7en disagreed with adding file storage to the db - over 15 years ago he predicted that the result will be that people will see csdb as the one central storage, and stop bothering to maintain their own websites. seems he was right afterall :(
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424 |
Quoting Groepazi think i understand now why se7en disagreed with adding file storage to the db - over 15 years ago he predicted that the result will be that people will see csdb as the one central storage, and stop bothering to maintain their own websites. seems he was right afterall :(
Sure, but that's not a problem, is it? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
imho it is. infact its one of the core problems. people are getting more and more lazy, and they demand everything to be served on a golden plate at a central place.
eventually the central place disappears and everyone except those who didnt fall for the lazyness will disappear with it.
people should understand that csdb is not the scene. the scene is what happens outside of csdb. and if there is no more scene hapenning outside of csdb, you can safely assume that the scene is finally dead and buried. posts like g-fellows make me shudder for this matter. its not csdbs job to attract new blood to the scene. its the scenes job. ie: ITS YOUR FUCKING JOB YOU LAZY BASTARDS. |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quote: ...Ohhh... and forgot... the ones they seem to enjoy the most all of my artist friends or clients and such... are the ones captured live with cam on screen with the audience sound... they did that! It is like a cool thing... just the noise in the room and the hard hitting demos and applouses and so on... I think that is really cool to show them... not like movies with machenes and sweety people likeus picking our noses and scratching our arses but the real tension feeds from the compos... LOVE IT!!!
I second that! I've shown people youtubes with screencapture and with crowdcapture. Crowdcapture works best! I mean: Listen to EoD live at X'08 <- a crowd starting to "sing" to the refrain of a music they hear for the very first time! Amazing, 4 years later still gives me the shiver I had actually at the partyplace.
And about the topic of "opening csdb for the masses": Please don't! There is a reason lotsa dudes and dudettes here are NOT active on lemon and stuff! For me, its cosy as it is :)
If you read in the forum as a guest visitor you can find codebase and tools and all, the hurdle is not that high. And if one is really interested in getting productive thats a jump one can take (resulting in a granted account ;) ). |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: imho it is. infact its one of the core problems. people are getting more and more lazy, and they demand everything to be served on a golden plate at a central place.
eventually the central place disappears and everyone except those who didnt fall for the lazyness will disappear with it.
people should understand that csdb is not the scene. the scene is what happens outside of csdb. and if there is no more scene hapenning outside of csdb, you can safely assume that the scene is finally dead and buried. posts like g-fellows make me shudder for this matter. its not csdbs job to attract new blood to the scene. its the scenes job. ie: ITS YOUR FUCKING JOB YOU LAZY BASTARDS.
I sincerely respect you all folks. Hearing both sides, I completely agree with Groepaz and iAN. I've been through something like this in a pretty different scene ages ago and as far my experience goes, the more you add as a maintainer beyond a point - the less it's working. CSDb at the moment has already been at that point as I see. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
I agree with Groepaz and ian, too. There is a place for everything. CSDb is a great place because it's a C64 Scene Database, it's main function is to be just that. There are other places that work as forums for everyone. Lemon64 is out there f.ex. In Sweden we have got Folkvagnen, germans have Forum64 etc etc.
My main concern, and I do not want to sound elitistic here, is that letting "anyone" in to csdb is that the database will be FUBAR. People that have the understanding for how the scene works, how releases should be credited etc, adds stuff for CSDb, and I would be sad if all the hours I have spent finding and preserving stuff would be fucked up because some moron changes stuff or want to trash stuff. Yes, it can happen even now, and hs hapened, but with "anyone" in here, all our hours would go to save the stuff that is already here. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
same for the forum actually - there is a reason for why lots of sceners fleed from lemon +10 years ago. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote: I agree with Groepaz and ian, too. There is a place for everything. CSDb is a great place because it's a C64 Scene Database, it's main function is to be just that. There are other places that work as forums for everyone. Lemon64 is out there f.ex. In Sweden we have got Folkvagnen, germans have Forum64 etc etc.
My main concern, and I do not want to sound elitistic here, is that letting "anyone" in to csdb is that the database will be FUBAR. People that have the understanding for how the scene works, how releases should be credited etc, adds stuff for CSDb, and I would be sad if all the hours I have spent finding and preserving stuff would be fucked up because some moron changes stuff or want to trash stuff. Yes, it can happen even now, and hs hapened, but with "anyone" in here, all our hours would go to save the stuff that is already here.
Quote:My main concern, and I do not want to sound elitistic here, is that letting "anyone" in to csdb is that the database will be FUBAR.
+1
Still, while I can relate to Groepaz' point of view there is a flipside to the coin: Would the scene be as relatively healthy as it is now without CSDB being the central place? I doubt it.
Just have a look at how many old retired geezers (including me, although my roots are to be found in the 90s Amiga scene) gained interest back by discovering CSDB.
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
The C-64 scene is a pretty small scene. Why spread it all over the place? Yes to centralization. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
I never said I demand having new features here. I'm just not agains them in general.
And yes. Lemon was different society when I was checking it more often than once a year. I still believe, that if something related to scene works there, it doesn't mean it's the right place for the scene. But of course it's not bad if people willing to use it are going to use it and find it useful for what they do. I woudln't mind if there was C64 compo that would attract thousands of listeners/watchers, whatever. But that's probably not going to happen unless we make a special compo (I think I know what could work.. we should try it.. but I don't want to say what is it, I should do it right now instead ;-))
roman |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364 |
"Why spread it all over the place? Yes to centralization."
the various sometimes very different opinions on how to run a compo in this thread are a good example of why that is a bad idea, imho. centralization inevitable (for both technical and manpower reasons) means same rules for everyone and kills all diversity. this is already a problem for the db itself - which in turn is another good example of how and why this is problematic and why "csdb is not the scene" is fundamental. infact imho the thought of "the scene is on csdb" is quite discriminating towards a lot of people who are not active on csdb for whatever reason (and not because they wouldnt get an account). |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Kristian Røstøen: C64 is actually the second biggest scene there is (Windows is no 1, but going down, C64 is going up!). Not that it is big, but it is a true survivor. ;)
http://blog.subsquare.com/state-of-the-demoscene-in-numbers |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
Pity I didn't see graph with demoparties in that article. I would expect C64 scene having quite nice curve there too. |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 545 |
Quote: I think you are getting a bit to blue-screen nerdy a lot of times... I just thought I would post that email here because I think it is important to have a talk on these matters... It is no personal thing from me? I do not even know that guy... and all I said were that even MY PAYING CLIENTS, THE ONES THET PAY FOR MY HOURS AT WORK do watch the c64 demos on youtube and think it is really great... And to me that is really exciting... it is just outstandingly cool. This is not people sitting at the room in their parents home, it is grown people of both gender thinking these rear things are cool... it is even people that do not know the machine at all... but they like the style and retro and sound or different things... it is worth taking into consideration for our community and that were my thought on posting something about it here.
"it is grown people of both gender thinking these rear things are cool..."
I too think those rear things are cool ;-)
It'a a rare thinng to not like those rear things (hehe)
Sorry, coudn't resist. OT though: Yeah I agree with all of you! |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: Pity I didn't see graph with demoparties in that article. I would expect C64 scene having quite nice curve there too.
I believe C64 is even bigger than his statistics show. He used Pouet as source for the data. It would have been much more interesting if he used CSDb. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
Pouet really is a bad measure for C64 activity. I fully agree... |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
as data driven as I like to be, you don't even need too much data to see that C64 scene is soon to be the #1 scene again :)
I agree with Groepaz mostly. CSDB is a scene database. Unfortunately it has also become the main "release platform" and storage area.
Voting here is ridicilously broken. But it is the best platform right now for demo makers to get some feedback on their work. Pouet feedback is just not as well thought. And proper demo reviews in diskmags would have been better (but doesn't happen often enough anymore).
So it is what it is. Don't think too much about it :)
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