There was some earlier Algorithm demo with porn animations where people voiced their objections and said that they can't show this demo to their wife, ...

Oh and one more point, does the C64 scene NEED anymore pixelled breasts?

It’s 2013 (almost 2014!) and creativity with computers is no longer a field dominated by 13 year old boys. Excitement over (and arguments trying to justify) pictures converted from the pages of FHM just make us look like a sad, closed, mens' club.

As for the claim that people pixel naked women because they adore the female form, why do most of the naked girls seen on the C64 look like they’ve had implants or suffered various unnatural forms of digital manipulation before being converted into pixels? Or why do they generally look poised for sex or ready to give a blow job? Very few C64 pictures depicting naked women come across as a celebration of female form, they more come across as a celebration of the content of misogynistic “lad mags”.

I would question anyone claiming that it doesn’t turn women away from the scene. if an awesome demo was full of digitally “enhanced” naked men, can we honestly say that no-one would down vote it, or at the very least, make some comment about how the penises made them “uncomfortable”? Bear in mind that to put things on a truly equal footing, it wouldn’t just be one demo, it would be a steady stream of demos over a long period of time with a few forums posts along the way asking what’s wrong with dicks in demos anyway?

it’s more a question of WHY do you WANT do it?

And btw: I have also no problems with showing this to women, e.g. my gf

not sure about that. its pretty clear to me why i like boobies and everything connected to it (*g*) so i can imagine why someone likes to draw some.

Prudishness is the ultimate perversion. Sexuality is a natural expression of life, and should be celebrated. It is a sick faith that seeks to subvert natural urges.

To suggest that anyone is victimized by artistic representations of female nudity is ridiculous.

Sex has a value dependent on its scarcity. Consider that the next time you hear someone objecting to sexual imagery or to "slutty women" - are they really just reacting to a perceived devaluation of their currency?

I didn’t say anything against sex or nudity in art, but what artistic expression is there in copying a picture of a naked woman offering sex? Aside from the public wank I already mentioned. And why is this an admittedly dwindling, yet still noticeable, part of the C64 scene?

To me it doesn't look like it matters for the complainers if the boobs are a copy (poor from an artistic view, but i'd still watch them, as it's boobs) or selfmade. Even if selfmade i am confronted with comments that carry the message: "actually boobs are bad, but i make a exception with this one". For me that always leads to the conclusion that i have to do with unfucked morons that moved their wanking to the brain. So am i just right with my conclusion or is anyone willing to bring me that strange thinking a bit closer? Are there really deep thoughts behind it or is it a brainless copying of empty politcal correctness terms?

Even if it were "porn" (that term differs in definition from person to person, but let's assume I mean "explicit depictions of sexual acts") What's the big deal? Why should this bother anyone who is an adult?

No, and that's the odd thing. We're only talking about nudity. Never seems to be any controversy over violence.

So you’re saying it’s about having some kind of public wank? That’s what I thought

We’re back to the need to have a public wank again…

Has violence been a regular fixture in C64 demos? Not sure what you’re referring to here?

in my experience the demoscene in general is quite accepting when it comes to female (or LGBT or any kind of non-male/non-heterosexual) sceners

I would add that its each to their own. Dont know what other people think, but i do things the way i want to without considering satisfying others. If that gets low votes because of this, then so be it. I dont care :-)

There's always that one guy - the one who puts on to be the militant feminist - and all the other guys aren't supposed to realize that he's simply hoping some woman will notice and bang him for it.

In your experience, as a male heterosexual? I'm glad you haven't experienced the amount of hatred and ridicule I've been met with, the people telling me that the only reason people vote for me is because I have tits, the batshit insane people who send me anonymous emails with manipulated pictures and crazed ramblings. And the flip side of the coin, having creepy stalkers make websites about me. Not any better. I wouldn't assume that the scene in general is any better than society in general because in my experience it is just as bad if not worse.

I still don't determine a certain community's ethics or virtue as a whole by the deeds of immature, gullible individuals who didn't know better.

even males experience really serious attacks/hostility. It is mostly based on grudge and/or envy/rivalry.

shortsighted, destructive and sociopathic people exist everywhere, especially if they could easily hide behind a wall of anonymity.

a much more interesting question to me is: why don't female artists do the same with men and penises?

Exactly. I have no illusions of being able to stop anyone from making what they want. I'll still voice my opinion on their release if I've watched it, but I tend to avoid releases from certain people when it becomes clear to me that I'm in no way part of their "target audience".

I try not to do that either. My point isn't that the scene as a whole is a terrible thing (it most certainly is not - most sceners are very friendly and nice) because of some individuals, it's that the scene is not really any better than the rest of (western) society.

...*most* C64 nudity is simply about lusting after breasts

I do also think that *because* the C64 scene does have such a high percentage of males, it would be good if it seemed more welcoming to women, rather than some kind of men only club where people get excited over 8 bit breasts.

In regards to respecting the feeling of others, what if someone would be disgusted at demo's featuring cute animals or cartoons all the time, Would the coder/designer of this demo have to respect the feelings and stop doing demo's like this?

If we're talking about particular examples, then sure, sexism still exists on some level, but it's hardly determinative globally.

Interesting. Most women I know check out and admittedly get excited when they see nice breasts or whatever body part they like on a photo/movie/piece of art, it's definitely not a male-only/scene-only phenomenon. People tend to react positively on things they appreciate. I strongly doubt that a few males painting and/or casually reacting excitedly to a seldom pair of 8bit boobs is an active/conscious act of sexism or the main reason why there are so few women on the (C64) scene.

it would be good if it seemed more welcoming to women, rather than some kind of men only club where people get excited over lowres nipples.

People who dislike cute animals aren’t generally discriminated against in society. It’s not WHAT the picture is of, but the attitude it’s reaffirming. I still haven’t had an answer from anyone as to why they WANT to produce things that make them look like a misoganist.

Scene is dominated by men because there is general lack of interest between women in this department of human creativity. There is not much women musicians in the scene (if any) and I don't think it is because there is too much sex in our music.

If there was more disk-mags I'm suppose, there might be some women editors. Also maybe you could find some girls that would be able and willing to review C64 art if asked, but I don't think there is much chances they would get hooked on creating C64 stuff.

If I wasn't already involved and was judging the C64 scene based on this thread, I would stay well clear.

The funniest think about this thread is, that actually (almost) everyone involved can differentiate between true work art (your example, mermaids example, JB's example) and kitsch (your example, JB's example) with sexist undertones (motivations)), but argument about political correctness and morality of the theme continues.

Sure, I don’t think the tiny number of women in the scene is due to pixel porn, but the scene might appear a more welcoming place without it.

Last time I was wondering was in the women managed private group on FB called (translated) "Chubbies are sexy!". They are quite militant towards any example of culture of thin models and mentions of fatness, yet regularly it's members post dreamy pics of cute half naked male models. Thats wondering me... (not literaly) I tell ya.

its evolution. are fatty toneless under muscled bodies natural btw ?

If this is really about making the scene a more welcoming and cozier place for women, if it would be up to me, first I'd ditch the violence.

What violence are you referring to?

And that second thing about sids... you talking to me? Don't understand why it is so important to you to make point of that.

If this is really about making the scene a more welcoming and cozier place for women, if it would be up to me, first I'd ditch the violence.

I mean violent, or more or less inappropriate imagery (depending on a person's sensitivity/stance: drugs, guns/soldiers, gore, death, horrorristic images, fighting scenes, etc. etc.) in releases, not violence among sceners.

Some of the usual motifs in releases paint a much more unwelcoming, immature and uninteresting picture of us as a community than nudity.

Was talking about SID musicians. Not about girls using some accessible PC (or something) based tools.

Images that use male sexual urges to gain a response, whether they be of women, men, or sheep wearing lipstick, are exploitive of MEN, not the subjects of the imagery.

Like Goat Tracker? :)

it's a question of why people want to support and defend those kind of attitudes

Which is why it's not about "political correctness", it's a question of why people want to support and defend those kind of attitudes. Especially since women suffer far, far worse than men*
*except one :)

Was talking about SID musicians. Not about girls using some accessible PC (or something) based tools.

I see a lot of men working their assess off in gyms, laying in the tan bed or ruining their health with steroids just because they are uncomfortable in their natural bodies since popular culture, but even traditional art suggests that we should be aggressive, ripped and masculine - whilst a lot of women expect us to fit into that image. Interestingly, no one mentions all those pictures here which reaffirm stereotypical, unnatural male body shapes and cliched roles. By definition, they seem to me sexist as well.

it's the sort of harassment that Mermaid has experienced. If there's something we need to address and eliminate from our community, I think that behavior should be at the top of the list.

That and the fact that i use my nowadays skills to achieve what i couldn't as a teenager, might make me appear naive, i'm fine with that, i see it as a compliment.

That being said, i was rather shocked to hear what Mermaid had to endure. I would have never guessed that people like that exist within the scene, and I am truly sorry to hear that! I'm quite sure they only exist at the remote perimeter of the scene though, cause clearly anyone claiming that people only vote for Mermaid because she has tits is a fucking ridiculous idiot and has no idea what he's talking about!...

If you want to know what keeps most of the women away from scene: They say: Keep me away from that goddamn unfucked (it is not my words, but women's words) nerds. I asked quite some ladies aboout what they think about the scene, and they all went just went "oh noes /o\"

As for me: I've had a guy (also posting in this thread btw) write a whole article slagging me down in some mag - and I had NEVER EVEN MET THE GUY!

Most females i showed demos to reacted rather positive and mildly interested in my explanations about demos, their creation, their makers and the parties.

right, females are much better in at least pretending trying to understand any explanations about our obsession

I still maintain that intelligent women exist who can follow my - granted, generalized - statements about this topic.

I meant the "trying to understand" part (which implies not understanding)

Try not to burst out in laughter? About what, exactly?

Wow, this is quite unlike my experiences. When was this, and how old were those women? Most females i showed demos to reacted rather positive and mildly interested in my explanations about demos, their creation, their makers and the parties. No negative stereotypes like those you mentioned popped up. Interesting.

that said, most people who i tell what i am doing in my spare time are trying to be polite and not burst out in laughter. the only thing noteable about women there is, they are better at it, or perhaps men just dont care enough.

You are right in saying, any general statement about women or men _can_ already be the beginning of sexism, even if positive discrimination.

I see pretending trying to understand as a skill, which I experienced(!) to find more often in women.

I have no problems with people immune to my 8bit enthusiasm :)

Genuinely trying to understand is noble while just feigning interest is polite at best but basically nothing more than a petty lie.

f.e. I've compared pixelling to making digital gobelin tapestries

you're probably more interested than you thought - if not in the topic, then in the person you're talking to.

yep, spot on.

these kind of "lies" are btw what makes us social beings. and people who try to not get involved with them are social outcasts.

i believe "social outcast" is the wrong term in a setting like this, as it does not imply a conscious choice not to partake by the person being cast out of some society.

Wow, this is quite unlike my experiences. When was this, and how old were those women? Most females i showed demos to reacted rather positive and mildly interested in my explanations about demos, their creation, their makers and the parties. No negative stereotypes like those you mentioned popped up. Interesting.

dramas when girlfriends/wifes accompanied their guys to some scene event.

but i challenge anyone to do the experiment once, just for one day - be honest and tell the truth, always, to anyone. (and you cant cheat by not talking) you will be surprised how much your daily routine relies on outright lying. you will also find out that you have lost one or two so called friends. and eventually found one person who will be with you forever, no matter what.

I was really emabarassed when they played some fat girl/porn or what was it pics on big screen and laughed on them (point probably was that it was someone's girlfriend, dunno). Also once she visited me on Forever parties I'm co-organising, and made me a scene when I didn't want time for her.

Don't take your girlfriends and wifes to the parties, unless they are sceners like you (which means, *don't*).

If you want to know what keeps most of the women away from scene: They say: Keep me away from that goddamn unfucked (it is not my words, but women's words) nerds. I asked quite some ladies aboout what they think about the scene, and they all went just went "oh noes /o\"

Dunno which C64 scener.. told me that I should close behind myself.. like if I was idiot from east-europe who don't know that you should close the toilet

that brings us back to the question why so few men are involved into the knitting scene ... =)

Would I have to speak up every random bit that's normally on my mind during the day or all the tasteless/irrelevant/absurd thoughts I think of but hold back when I speak with someone (by definition, that isn't lying, right?), or just to answer honestly when someone asks me something?

But I did compensate for that myself and tried to balance the lack of objectification of men

I´ve been to other meetings for people who do knitting, crochet, embroidery etc. where the majority have been women, and I never met anyone who did pictures of male genitals or had to use motives with naked men to motivate themselves to finish their work.

Bitbreaker: Touché!! There are three possibilities (which can be combined in order to get more accuracy. 1. poser, 2. (closeted) gay, or 3. virgin.

But I DO honestly hope that another person will have a good day when I say it.

From now on, I'll definitely pay more attention to this, but really don't know of cases when I'd be dishonest with others (except the occasional "Hey, you look great today", but that's rare anyway).

are you sure? on every single occasion? i somehow doubt it :)

see, you are already coming up with exceptions - those occasions are exactly what its all about.

Sure, but it's not that I lie all the time, or that I can't live even a day without lying. And I tend to say "you look great today" to people who radiate out energy and seem alive and happy. Is that even a lie?

I live a kind of life where I simply don't really have to lie.

Not you personally of course, but you're definitely an active part of a group that objectifies and encourages objectification of women.

And we're not animals. Lo' and behold: we have conscience, we feel love, strong empathy, we have free will, but also the painful emotion of shame. And our purpose in life isn't just reproduction, you know.

The problem with physical attractiveness today: it would have to be about being healthy and feeling comfortable in your own body rather than basically forcing yourself to look like clichés from popular culture whilst destroying yourself mentally and physically (as otherwise you might feel degraded and less recognized).

Well what your previous example shows, is, that a very high percentage of idiots are on this planet, but it lacks the whole path of correlation to the said theory. I could simply proof the opposite. We have one secretary and else men only, but she is pretty fine here, noone molests her in any way. Maybe, because here it is a pretty good reason to get fired in case.

Also, how is the victim you describe being objectified?

You only can treat things equally if they are equal or can be made equal. But you can't make crap taste like vanilla iceream, by just stating that they have to taste equal.

An no, if you boil it down, the only reason to be here is reproduction, this also applies to humans. The rest is nice sugar on top, but not necessary. Those "extraskills" might even help us to destroy humankind faster then intended.

imho there's no purpose of life, unless you make one for yourself. and we're animals

, and its not wrong liking and drawing nice boobies. people are always having various problems, low self esteem, not liking your body ? blame it on men who are naturally obsessed with nice women. how wrong they are! they shouldnt! women shouldnt work on their low self esteem, or do something about their fat body, its all caused by evil men... I think this story has 2 sides.

Indirect female input doesn't counts?

So, my judgement and assumption based by numerous obvious, evidently negative incidents experienced and retold by women are just subjective and questionable views just because not too much women participate in this discussion? Well okay, that's interesting.

This thread contains some points here and there made by various different people, but those points aside it's generally making the mistake of first asking a structural question and then answering it without using even the most basic semblances of structuralist analysis, instead reducing everything down to individual example mixed with ad hominem.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/.

you know what's really sexist? men talking about how women (should) feel, without any female input on the whole matter.

List of things I've learned, here and elsewhere, that feminism is after posting in this thread:

* An ideology adopted by gays, prudes, lunatics, fanatics, hairy women, whiners, asexuals and guys who just want to get laid
* Hot air
* Of interest to women only
* A disguise

When the woman is lying on her back and your balls are bouncing on her ass

...
I should watch what I say.. you might try to have me locked up for being hysterical!!! :D

anyone who feels that someone must lead their relationship is an idiot and deserves to get dumped.

and wtf is SO? considering this is csdb, i guess it means "social outcast"?

To each his own: some like to lead, some like to be led.

People use this term and the SO abbreviation quite extensively since decades.

as far as idiots go, perhaps. we have been partners in our relationship for that matter.

but those who feel the need to be led, they deserve a leader.

i have never seen it in 40 years until now in this thread.

Are you aware that there are other sites on the internet except CSDb

I don't see it's negative context at all. "Significant other" describes an intimate relationship with an important person in my life. It isn't elevating my partner above me as "better half" does.

Even Oswald knew what it means.

...writing "SO" instead of "significant other" is about as retarded as writing "BH" for "bessere hälfte" (which is pretty much the german equivalent). ...

Well I honestly thought it's an evident abbreviation, I constantly run into it on forums, social networking and entertainment sites...

Quote:

Are you aware that there are other sites on the internet except CSDb

yes. idiots are everywhere. writing "SO" instead of "significant other" is about as retarded as writing "BH" for "bessere hälfte" (which is pretty much the german equivalent).

no wonder communication goes to shit.

Just out of curiosity, which forums, social networks and entertainments sites would you be referring to?

Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Reddit, IMDb, Gawker, Something Awful, Buzzfeed, Cracked, The Oatmeal, even 4chan

Care to come up with some explicit examples for once, except that they're retarded or idiotic by your own perceptions and standards of intelligence?

And I really adore your snarky comments used for distractions whenever you don't have anything valuable to add to the conversation ;)

Bitbreaker wanted drama, we provided. Entertainment is a valuable form of activity!

Considering the popular sites, I'd be the first to say that there is indeed a lot of idiotic content, but there is also a great amount of intelligent and useful substance on them. You just have to filter well, it ain't that hard. And you may do know about them, but in that case, you keep ignoring their positive sides for some reasons unbeknownst to me.

He was just not familiar with the abbreviation, which is actually quite reasonable considering he's practically living on CSDb :)

The number of idiot/clueless users doesn't decreases a service's benefits or defines its practicality, at all.