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2004-08-08 15:29

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

One Man Army

(I wanted to post this in the LCP thread at first, but it is not really on-topic. Still, I'm interested enough to find out what you guys think, so it turned up here)

To one-man-armies and 'multi-taskers' such as Dane, Hein, Hollowman, HCL, Jeff, etc... Manfred Trenz... :

You know, I have been thinking about joining Dane's one-man-army club, but I'd rather focus on the things one does best. Spreading out your forces eventually eats the time you have available, and you can't do as much for each thing as you'd like.

You do have the advantage of being without conflict as far as the implementation of one's ideas is concerned, but I have a feeling that you get this feeling of "...if I had the freedom to only do *insert element here*, I would have had the time to go much further."

Doing two things is already 'dividing'... what's your viewpoint?

What do the other 'multi-taskers' think? Work in a small group for focussed teamwork and more time for what you like most, or multi-task for a better overview on the prod?

In your opinion, is multitasking a result of necessity, or general interest and love for the c64? Other reasons, perhaps?

Let's talk =)

2004-08-08 17:01

ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1391

For me, multitasking is partly about control and partly an ego thing - I want to say to the world 'hey, look what I can do!'.

I can't speak for artists in general, but I know that coders have a definite streak for not liking to use other peoples code because they think they can do better - one-man-army (OMA) just takes that pattern to the next (il)logical level :)

OMA also saves attempting to find other people who you can work well with - no "interviews", no asking to join groups, no arguments about how best to do something, or who gets to do what.

There are definite downsides; biggest is that your time pressure is multiplied by an order of magnitude. The other is it's hard to find time to keep well rounded. I haven't regularly composed in ten years, as my full time coding job was very demanding. Pixeling's also been thin on the ground for a while. Someone who only does one thing will always have more experience in that one thing than anyone who tries to do many things

Of course, that way you also lose out on the cameraderie (group good feeling) of working on a group production. You also miss out on the sort of creativity you get from bouncing ideas off people.

I like the idea that the scene seems to be becoming more fluid - more cooperation between groups, more collaboration between people who just happen to get together for a single production, and maybe do it again some time.

And if people also act as OMA inbetween working with others, then that's more demos for us all to appreciate :)

c.

2004-08-08 17:26

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933

For myself, I know I will never be a proper programmer, so it would be a waste of time, if that excists, to try to become one. It's always difficult to get multiple noses in the right direction, at least more difficult than my own nose. I'll always agree with myself about ideas. And, ideas that are on the edge, can become dull when a few people try to make a compromise. Ofcourse, it's a lot of work if 1 person has to do everything, which may also result in a half product.

Personally, I like teamwork, hearing different opinions, discussions going on, possibly even fights over a simple idea, but if u can stick together after a fight, you know it's been worth the black eyes and bloody noses.

Professionaly I think it's best to have all tasks divided so productivity will be quite fast, and everybody will be happy with their bankaccount, and with their freedom of exploring 1 task as deep as possible. It's boring that way, and can be annoying for instance, if a coder has a great idea about design, but the designer doesn't think it's great at all. This ideal situation can only be found in Star Trek, not in the real world.

Than again, this scene is not about profesionalism, rather about enjoying your time with what one does. So I guess a one man army attitude is just as cool as team work, but like I said, I prefer teamwork, which is good for the ego, give and take, so to say.

2004-08-09 02:05

Stryyker

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465

I guess if the one man army decides their weakest area(s) is(are) dragging them down then maybe drop them. For myself I have wanted to have the thought patterns so I could draw - I have long wanted to make a all on my own. Too bad I just give up with gfx not even trying :(

2004-08-09 02:24

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

I do more things that I can count, but they all lead in the same way.

Coding makes order in chaotic thoughts.
Chaotic thoughts for patterns that become music.

Seemingly non-related things, all lead to the same, they all want you to make your innermost dreams happen.

So I don't think it matters how many things you do, as long as you know what you want in the end.

As for working with others, I do like company, so I will involve others, as needed.

In some areas, teamwork is required, in others not.

Let the situation decide what is best, and always follow your inner self, then it cant go wrong.

2004-08-09 10:26

Dane
Account closed

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421

Well, I do what I think is fun. I started pixeling and I enjoyed it, next I started playing around with music - but that doesn't mean I stopped pixeling really, just that I did it less often. Nowadays, I often take breaks from either music, graphics or code to focus on one thing - what I find is most fun at the moment.

And as far as coding goes it's always been about taking my graphics or music to the next level. This is why I do graphics formats and weird players. I'll never be a math guru.

As to working in a team versus doing it all yourself, I'd say my best experience so far was working in a tight team doing Cycle as a duo with Hcl. I want to be able to have a say about what things look like and sound like and what they contain. I just can't live with sending a prv to someone and say 'insert random effect' or 'insert random logo'. Sorry. I'd rather do things all by myself than with someone who I can't work with. Thankfully, it seems I've found someone. :)

2004-08-09 13:18

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 719

As i'm almost questioned, i feel i have to insert a few lines here as well.

I started with doing gfx, then i made some music, but since 10+ years i mostly code. In the beginning, the thrill of coding took overhand. But at the time i started to know how it worked, the scene started to decay. I almost had to do everything myself in order to release it. Since then i have slowly worked my way up from being a OMA, to having a whole team (2 people ;) working with me.

The pros and cons have already been mentioned, and like some others i do some gfx from time to time when i get inspired, but rarely music. To me it's a relief to have someone else helping out with music or gfx, maybe because i remember the time when i had to do everything myself. But not only for the effort, nowadays i'm totally convined that the final result will be better if i don't do it all my self.

..and yes ofcourse, Cycle is a star up in the sky. Maybe not as a demo (it's only #9 today ;), but the teamwork was really perfect. I still can't imagine how we made that demo from scratch, starting only three months before it was finished. Sometimes 1+1 is not 2, but 7.

2004-08-09 19:30

Cybernator

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 154

HCL wrote:

> Sometimes 1+1 is not 2, but 7.

And what math theory implies this? :P

2004-08-09 19:32

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Thanks for your input, everyone. It seems like OMA grows from being motivated to do something, but standing alone at the same time. Of course, there is also the motivation to learn everything about the c64. Since this is cool, OMA is cool too.

On the other hand, some feel that teamwork is better and personally, I agree. Cooperation allows you much more focus on the things you love the most (because I would find it hard to believe that someone has no preference between graphics, music and coding).

But yeah, then there are those moments where 'nothing happens'. A big project is finished, everyone takes a break, and it will take a certain amount of time before you're motivated as a group again.

This leads me to another question: During those periods, while you're waiting for the others to have time again, would it be wise to go OMA? Or would it be wiser to stick with your specialty and simply keep practising it so that you're at your best when the others come back?

I've been playing with these two ideas for a long time. I know I could be a good math coder if I would get myself to learn assembler, so OMA is a possibility. Conversely, I'd like to make some damn fine graphics and/or music, so just keeping it slow and working on those things quietly is very appealing, too.

What do you think? Is there a wiser choice, or does it really not matter?

PS: HCL - You were directly questioned, btw. =)

2004-08-09 23:12

macx

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 252

>I like the idea that the scene seems to be becoming more >fluid - more cooperation between groups, more collaboration >between people who just happen to get together for a single >production, and maybe do it again some time.

exactly!

eventually groups _may_ become obsolete as we're all individual artists trying different ways of expressing ourselves individually or in some context.

the thing is that the scene has matured and it is more contemporary. we're making demos for one another, not trying to make demos for those we were when we were 17. hence less and less nude phantasy chicks.

but also that there are nude phantasy chicks for those who like it, and coder pr0n without any design whatsoever :-)

in any way i believe these changes are for the better and it also gives me good hopes for the future demoscene.

2004-08-10 07:57

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 719

@Cybernator: > Sometimes 1+1 is not 2, but 7.
And what math theory implies this? :P

Hmm, i was hoping the text explained that.

@_V_: What do we do inbetween great releases? Philosofying at CSDB of course ;) (at least noone can question the truth in that). My intention says that you're worrying too much, do what you feel like, how can it be wrong. Or take the opportunity to just fantasize about the next demo or whatever you want to do. You know how it is, this is the short time of freedom when everything is possible. Later on reality hits you and you have some impossible demoparts to finish ;).

2004-08-10 08:37

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5034

hell, whats the point on philosophing on going to OMA or not OMA ?! To be or not to be ? Just do what you would like to do, and dont just think on what you could do.

2004-08-10 08:44

macx

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 252

Quote: HCL wrote:

> Sometimes 1+1 is not 2, but 7.

And what math theory implies this? :P

emergent qualities.

compare with our consciousness. all the physical components of our body/brain/surroundings cannot entirely explain how we are sentient and how we can think, fantasize, etc.

"there is something more than the sum put together" (c64love2)

2004-08-10 09:42

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

A type of gas holds physical/spiritual together, it's called Orgon, therefore the word orgasm, when it is released.

Orgon is released in orgasm, because we generate more of it then we need - to make babies. Sex for fun is just a great way to get rid of the surplus.

Orgon, aka the force from starwars - not sci fi, but is in the universe everywhere.

2004-08-10 10:14

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

So who wants to join my new group Orgon then? One condition: you have to be an OMA, meaning my first task is to kick myself out

2004-08-10 11:16

VIC

Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 73

"One Man Army" what a sad concept...

...sad but impressive, if the result is well executed :P

2004-08-10 13:06

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Well believe it or not, but my question wasn't philosophic (this time =). It's almost a personal question - I really am not sure what to pick, so I want to find out what the pros and cons of each side are. And it's much appreciated to hear your opinion.

Yes, I'd like to do what my heart and mind tell me to do. Right now, however, they flip and flop between both alternatives. Hopefully you guys can help me get my bearings right, and perhaps even help out others who are struggling with the same problem.

2004-08-10 14:22

Earthshaker

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 118

Quote: So who wants to join my new group Orgon then? One condition: you have to be an OMA, meaning my first task is to kick myself out

You an OMA? I always thought you were an OPA! ;)

2004-08-10 15:11

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: You an OMA? I always thought you were an OPA! ;)

Duh! That's why I can't be part of the team ..

(And no, although I feel like one sometimes, I am not an opa yet ..)

2004-08-10 18:09

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

i didnt have much of a choise, i had been doing
mostly gfx, but also some coding, but then logger
disappeared and i could either pick up coding
or try to find another coder(not much chance
in sweden around spring '99)

it would be nice to focus on one thing, but
i dont think i could become a great graphician
or a great coder, so i do my best and try
to make something good out of the combination.

i would really like to work with more
people, but most are too unreliable

2004-08-10 18:25

Optimus

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122

That's an original and very interesting discussion. For I was always admiring in a strange way those few OMAs. And because it has just something to do with my feelings too. I wanted to become one of them but now I totally avoid the thought.

Reaching that point depends on the focus. If mine was attention(egoism?), then this will hardly lead me to this point. I can't even stand up in my one and only activity, coding, but that's perhaps because I was oppresing myself, for doing something I don't totally like. I won't reach that focus with the wrong motivations in my head. Instead I am trying these days to find better motives for being active in the scene.

The words control and egoism that someone mentioned complete each other imho. If the reason of being hyperactive is my egoism, then I have to control myself to reach that. Because myself will prefer to stay lazy than working hard for the scene, so I will have to oppress myself in order to achieve my (misfocused?) goal. At this point, I am away of the real motives that could drive up my activity. So, I wondered how those people can keep beeing really so active and going on doing that? They HAVE to like it like hell! Or not?

I choosed to be a coder, but I'd like to try tracking or pixeling oneday. At least they might be more fun and direct than coding. But I never found the opportunity because I always oblidge myself to finish some coding for a new demo (which I also never finish :P). I am chasing deadlines again without a good cause. I wish I could give time to myself for trying something else :(

But then again, I would do one activity for a longer time, instead of everything for a little. I still can't get how some people can be OMAs!

Not questioned to me, but I decided to express my thoughts, because they mean something for me..

2004-08-10 20:02

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Optimus__Not questioned to me, but I decided to express my thoughts, because they mean something for me..__

Yes, you weren't questioned directly, because I don't know all the OMAs (and the OPAs ;) out there (hence the ... in the lead post). Nonetheless, your thoughts are more than welcome =).

An undying motivation for their platform is what drives someone to become an OMA. I remember when I was 14-17 years old, seeing those great Bonzai and Censor classics. I really, really, really wanted to make something just as cool.

Although the demos I look up to have changed (platform, even), that drive to 'make something just as cool' still is there. And yeah, if you happen to be alone, the urge to produce becomes so dominant that you force yourself into doing everything.

Because others often aren't that reliable, true. You really have to search long and hard to find someone with the same drive and motivation, who happens to be good where you are a bit weaker, and who you can work with.

Finding the dream team is just that... a dream which takes seemingly forever before it becomes true. But when it happens, it's bliss. Which is why I am a bit envious, yet also happy for the BD trinity of HCL, Dane and Jailbird. There's an enormous potential there, and I hope they can find the time to make it happen.

Speaking of such,

Hollowman__i would really like to work with more
people, but most are too unreliable__

Don't give up. I'm sure you'll get the teammate(s) you need some day.

__it would be nice to focus on one thing, but
i dont think i could become a great graphician
or a great coder, so i do my best and try
to make something good out of the combination.__
You have, on several counts. I won't say more, because then we're in another discussion =).

Anyway, the drive which brings someone to become an OMA is clear. But, is it better to focus this drive on what you do best, or distribute it just so you can produce something before your brain short-circuits (so to speak ;)?

Right now, you all have made me feel that the Focus-thing is perhaps the wiser choice... I have read somewhere that each graphician has 10000 bad drawings in him or her. You first have to draw these before you get to the good stuff. I'm beginning to feel that whoever said that, is right. Same goes for music and code, too, I guess, but I'm not sure if 10000 is the right number in those cases :)

2004-08-10 21:50

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

_V_ , my advise is that you do what you are best at and have the most fun from. And if you then need to apply another area to get your main thing carried out fully, seek help as needed.

?

If you just can't stop doing something that is really not your strong force, it must be because you want to improve, or have fun doing it anyway.

Nobody's forcing you.

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