| |
Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **
Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.
Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.
If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.
Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.
I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.
But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.
There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:
"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."
So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.
It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?
On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?
One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.
This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.
Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?
This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.
Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.
So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;) |
|
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
perhaps protovision thinks they would lose sales if people were able to try out their games first |
| |
Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
These games belong to Protovision and this database belongs to NoName. If they don't want cracked versions available for download here then there's not really anything to discuss, is there? |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
* Is this a SCENE database or a SALES database?
* What type of scene database pays attention to copyright? A kiddie-database? Surely this site can handle such releases without this wild-censoring. The releases on FTP sites are NOT the responsibility of this database's administration.
* Does the whole argument about piracy have to be done all over again within the scene? That is crazy. This scene has existed for two decades, shouldn't we be the most mature scene of them all? Or are we still trying to discuss the principles?
* And it seems crack intros are a casualty of the whole crack thing on csdb as well, that's just not right!
|
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Remind me to make a copyrighted demo til the next party. Without copyprotection? Yes. And only two-player mode, with support for the 4-player adapter (tm).
Seriously though, I can't understand the reason for not providing links to the releases themselves. This issue of the scene contra the sceners which make games have been a hot potato ever since Sodan first released "The Vikings" for Kele Line in 1986/87. Back then, when you basically could become rich from your work, it was quite another thing. These people could make a living out of it and felt threatened (eg. Sodan) and some just didn't care (eg. Ian&Mic, God&Hake, etc.) since they understood that the scene hardly was the target for these games.
Now things are different, and perhaps both we and the makers of the games should view things from other angles. First, you can't make good money out of C-64 games anylonger. If you're after the money, you're on the goddamned wrong scene. Second, people which buy games do it for the sake of the package and the feeling of getting a new original. Cronosoft, for example, keeps this view and doesn't really care if the games are spread on the scene earlier. The reason for tht is that they're mostly targeted towards a retro-scene, which want the stuff, the tape, the jewelcase and the packaging. I've actually bought a Richard Bayliss game (!) from them myself, just for the sake of enjoying the original, loading it from tape, etc. And I can tell you, the packaging, the anticipation and the procedure around loading it gave it value.
Perhaps this is what PTV games lack? Some distance to the games and some polishing on the product, graphical design, the onefilers (Hockey Mania, are not available on tape (which is the easiest way to make a good packaging). No, instead you get a disk and a diskcover in a cheap plastic bag. How handy. The thing which is left to value is the game itself, so that's why they are so keen on protecting it. |
| |
Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
mature and scene in the same sentence, shouldn't there be an "im" there somewhere. Or was it a typo for manure? |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I've purchased several games from Protovision and Twoflower's point is quite right. When I made those purchases it was to have the originals. Just like when I got my last boxed original which was SWORD OF HONOUR back in 1995. What a feeling! But the Protovision originals are quite cheap as far as their packaging is concerned. Heck, for the price you pay you should at least get some type of packaging, plastic bags don't cost that much, especially when ordered in bulk.
In regards to censoring the links, I agree with Twoflower again, censoring on a "SCENE" database is wrong. Collectors of cracks will download cracks. Collectors of original will order the original.
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Quote: mature and scene in the same sentence, shouldn't there be an "im" there somewhere. Or was it a typo for manure?
Mermaid, to explain, the scene has been around long enough to have had these discussions before (in fact many times). Why are people still questioning certains aspects of the scene? A cracker cracks games. A coder codes. A collector of originals collects originals. A collector of cracks collects cracks. Is it that difficult to understand?
|
| |
Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Jazzcat, to explain, I was making a statement about the scene. Is it that difficult to understand?
Also I don't see why being anti copyright is more mature than being pro copyright. Anyway...who cares, it is all manure in the end. |
| |
fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
STFU
Protovision are selling games to their scene friends.
STFU
Oh.. and Bayliss sux :) |
| |
Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Thanks for proving my point Fade |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Here's the thing we all should give a thought...
The internet is not a geek thing anymore, everybody and his grandma surfs the web or googles around. That includes company employees and lawyers.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have all links to cracks removed than have someone who still owns the right to this or that game discover that there's some quick money to make and sue the Noname guys just because he legally can.
Just a week or so ago, a german publishing company lost the case where they were sued for 500,000 Euro in damages by the music industry because they published an article about a DVD copying program (programs that circumvent copy protections are considered illegal in Germany) and supplied a link to the vendor's webpage. ( http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/58249 )
In a world where things like that happen, I'd rather be on the safe side, even if it means not to list URLs to cracks of games that most of the time aren't worth the trouble to download them anyways. |
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: mature and scene in the same sentence, shouldn't there be an "im" there somewhere. Or was it a typo for manure?
i thought you had quit the scene |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Quote: Jazzcat, to explain, I was making a statement about the scene. Is it that difficult to understand?
Also I don't see why being anti copyright is more mature than being pro copyright. Anyway...who cares, it is all manure in the end.
Your entitled to your statement. Its not difficult to understand, as is my view on the scene and "tradition".
I think some of us have been doing this long enough to understand certain principles, a pity those who don't understand have no willingness to try and consider it. |
| |
Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote: i thought you had quit the scene
I thought so too :-( |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
What offences me the most is that the person in question (MacGyver) is a CSDB admin *and* a member of Protovision.
How can an admin of a (warez) scenedatabase have commercial ties to a games company?
Macgyver should make a choice and stop playing the bully with admin rights.
R.
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Well, I've been part of this scene thingy for quite a long time, and all I can say is that I totally agree with Seven on this.
But then again, I don't give a flying fig about the cracking scene anyway, never have :) |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Scout: good points. It seems ONLY to be MacGyver who has the problem with some links. NO ONE else.
This is a fucking scene database. If there is links to FTPs, then this is no ones fault. The database is open to the public.
|
| |
cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
yeah this MacGyver seems to have way to much power here,
I've already suggested to the REAL csdb staff to
remove his rights, but apparently they seem to be
very happy with him and just decided to do nothing.
This while he's the one that removed my locks on
the two Protovision cracks 'Ice Guys' and 'Bomb Mania'
and place his own name on it.
Heard later from Jazzcat that he pulled the same trick
with him on the release from Hockey Mania...
This database has been infected by some commercial minded
lamer
A shame...
Niels |
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: What offences me the most is that the person in question (MacGyver) is a CSDB admin *and* a member of Protovision.
How can an admin of a (warez) scenedatabase have commercial ties to a games company?
Macgyver should make a choice and stop playing the bully with admin rights.
R.
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl
then he can also stop (ab)using his ability to see the identity of anonymous voters |
| |
Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Quote: then he can also stop (ab)using his ability to see the identity of anonymous voters
And then again, maybe _everyone_ should have that ability. Woops, wrong discussion. :) |
| |
Street Tuff
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 88 |
fullack hollowman!
mac guyver asked me some weeks ago why i downvoted him
on the csdb. i wasn't aware of the fact, that he is an
admin of the database. my votes are non-public and he
really pissed me off that day!
greetz
street tuff |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
MacGyver has been viewing who anonymous voters are???
|
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: And then again, maybe _everyone_ should have that ability. Woops, wrong discussion. :)
Maybe everybody should be admin here, that would really rock! |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: MacGyver has been viewing who anonymous voters are???
Yup!
Now he actually deserves an anti-demo.
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Yup!
Now he actually deserves an anti-demo.
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl
Too bad you're too lazy to code one ;) |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Too bad you're too lazy to code one ;)
Wooops! Wrong discussion! :)
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
I have no problem with MacGyver being removed, never quite understood what's his claim to fame is anyway.
This, however, doesn't change that in my opinion we're all a little bit better off and on the safe side without links to illegal content, especially since this database IS open to public and there's no telling if the next MacGyver, who happens not to be promoted to admin status, won't take legal steps to ensure his games won't be downloaded. |
| |
Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote: Maybe everybody should be admin here, that would really rock!
or maybe everyone should have their own database, that way Jazzcat (hi mate) could add all the cracks he wanted and we could all be at #1 in the charts without having to downvote anonymously (oops wrong discussion) |
| |
H.O
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 70 |
I can understand if CSDb doesnt want to host files where there might still be copyright issues, but as long as the file is related to the c64 scene, I see no problem with providing links.
After all, this is a scene database, and the scene is built on cracking. The demo-scene is based on the cracking scene, and while cracking today is more of a nostalgic (and/or quality) project, there can be no doubt that the c64 scene once was built on cracking.
|
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: I have no problem with MacGyver being removed, never quite understood what's his claim to fame is anyway.
This, however, doesn't change that in my opinion we're all a little bit better off and on the safe side without links to illegal content, especially since this database IS open to public and there's no telling if the next MacGyver, who happens not to be promoted to admin status, won't take legal steps to ensure his games won't be downloaded.
I didn't know who this MacGyver was before this incident.
My bad then...
Anyway, I guess this whole removing of links to (Protovision) games is a one man action and not a decision made by the REAL CSDb crew.
Furthermore, it's up to the REAL CSDb crew to decide to change their disclaimer and to remove links to cracks when the server is located in a country that makes a hassle of links to (oldskool yet copyrighted) warez.
R.
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
The original *removed* comment was submitted by Perff, not MacGyver. So it looks like either MacGyver, with his admin rights, managed to fake the comment (dunno if that's possible for an admin here), or Perff is backing him. |
| |
cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
Quote: The original *removed* comment was submitted by Perff, not MacGyver. So it looks like either MacGyver, with his admin rights, managed to fake the comment (dunno if that's possible for an admin here), or Perff is backing him.
No Richard was making a comment on the Bomb Mania crack.
And yes Perff seems to be a big PTV lover.
Niels |
| |
MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.
Actually, we used originals where we could (e.g. the crt image for Pitstop, and a few others). We only had two weeks to fix 30 games, so unfortunately there wasn't time to hunt down original tapes or disks.
As for this rather weird topic: CSDB is a scene database. Either have cracks in the db, with links, or don't have any game entries at all. Using admin rights to watch anonymous votes and lock entries is extremely lame.
|
| |
Street Tuff
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 88 |
somewhen in a not to distant future.
welcome to CSDb
the commodore scene demo base
(cracking is a crime!)
*scnr* |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
scene database := no public access, access applications, application reviews
Information on CSDb is readily available to anyone, most of it even without user account. It might not have accured to anyone yet, but while CSDb might be a database about the scene, it is not primarily a database for or by the scene... as proven by MacGyver being an admin =D |
| |
iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
Just to start up an old discussion again.
I still think that cracks/games should _not_ be stored in the form they are today. I would prefer a Gamers Guide form instead. Where the game itself is at toplevel and the cracks, with infos such as block length/trainers, are included as different versions.
This would prevent strange comments like giving 10 to a crack of Turbo outrun because the music in the game is "sooo great!".
To be on topic, the so called "commercial" PTV and "Bayliss" games shouldnt be here at all. There are other sites for that, gamebase64 for example. Or would it be ok for me to add my c64 based pr0n-pay site as a "c64 misc." release? given that I had such. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
<MacGyver: Everybody who wrote negative about me in this thread is ip-banned from CSDb>
** Comment removed by Slarti due to copyright ** |
| |
Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Iopop, wrong topic! Promote your site elsewhere! |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
(still) my full ack to the "games and their cracks" thing.
Sometimes I get the impression Perff isn't really interested in spending much time on CSDb anymore, much of the things that have been discussed never really got done. |
| |
The Blue Ninja
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 4 |
I really do not understand how some people here can be proud of their cracking career and do think why cracking is still essential today for the C64 scene.
I can hear them yell:
Jippieh, I am #1 in the "being lame by cracking unprotected games, adding some simple trainers and being able to link an intro infront of them" Top-10.
That cracking scene is no scene, it is a kindergarten.
Who really needs those people anyway? IMHO there are no challenges anymore to justify the existence of that scene!
Times have changed and the crackers lost their justification to exist.
Maybe there are some exceptions that make old games work with hardware they were not designed for as well as emulators and those people that preserve old software for the generations beyond. But besides that I can not see any justification to support such a scene.
Culture in that scene has died long ago. Sad as it is.
The Blue Ninja |
| |
Jak T Rip
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 39 |
I am really depressed by all this needless hostality in the community. Why is it so much easier to pick on the projects others put so much effort in?
I can only say that Protovision does put a lot of effort in their projects.
The other thing I want to say is that MacGyver is a valuable and wonderful person who, like many of us, tries all he can to support the c64 in the way he can do that best. He is also one of the most active csdb users and has fixed many many entries with false information, which IS a good reason for him being an admin here (and now PRAY DONT pick on this like "I can imagine what kind of "false" information this would be." It's not all idiological)
btw: Hey, Vanja! It is wonderful to read that you are alive. Hope you are OK.
|
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: I really do not understand how some people here can be proud of their cracking career and do think why cracking is still essential today for the C64 scene.
I can hear them yell:
Jippieh, I am #1 in the "being lame by cracking unprotected games, adding some simple trainers and being able to link an intro infront of them" Top-10.
That cracking scene is no scene, it is a kindergarten.
Who really needs those people anyway? IMHO there are no challenges anymore to justify the existence of that scene!
Times have changed and the crackers lost their justification to exist.
Maybe there are some exceptions that make old games work with hardware they were not designed for as well as emulators and those people that preserve old software for the generations beyond. But besides that I can not see any justification to support such a scene.
Culture in that scene has died long ago. Sad as it is.
The Blue Ninja
You are totally and I mean TOTALLY missing the point here and about cracking historywise, Mr First-Time-on-CSDB-with-a-big-mouth-who-happens-to-be-a-Protovision-member-too!
Yo peeps! Devour him! =)
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: I am really depressed by all this needless hostality in the community. Why is it so much easier to pick on the projects others put so much effort in?
I can only say that Protovision does put a lot of effort in their projects.
The other thing I want to say is that MacGyver is a valuable and wonderful person who, like many of us, tries all he can to support the c64 in the way he can do that best. He is also one of the most active csdb users and has fixed many many entries with false information, which IS a good reason for him being an admin here (and now PRAY DONT pick on this like "I can imagine what kind of "false" information this would be." It's not all idiological)
btw: Hey, Vanja! It is wonderful to read that you are alive. Hope you are OK.
Maybe McGuyver is a nice person who helps old ladies crossing the street and gives soup away for the Salvation Army on Xmas evening but still he has no reason to
- Delete Protovision entries
- Unlock PTV entries, put them on his name, edit them and lock them again
- Investigate "anonymous" downvoters
All of this regardless of the CSDb disclaimer.
I call this lame and a mis-use of his admin-rights.
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
H.O
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 70 |
"That cracking scene is no scene, it is a kindergarten."
I am not certain whether this comment reflects to the cracking scene of today, or cracking in general. I interpreted the post as an attack on cracking in general, which is the basis of my reply here. If I misunderstood "TheBlueNinja" (and other posters) my apologies.
Also, my apologies in advance if I stray too far from the subject.
Anyway; Cracking is the basis of the demo scene as it is today. Anyone disrespecting what the crackers of before did, or the importance of cracking in the growth of the scene are basically disrespecting the demo scene of today (and past)
Demos grew out of intros, which grew out of cracking games. The distribution network that from the late 80:s was used to support a larger and larger demo-scene was a distribution network created to support cracking and the distribution of cracks.
That is why all groups wanted originalsuppliers and provide cracks of their own during the first 5-7 years of the c64 scene, since everyone know and acknowledged the importance cracking and crackers had for the scene as we knew it then.
Not until the late 80's did the focus shift into demos, where pure demo-swappers started to appear and where some group felt a need to distance themselves from cracking by naming themselves demogroups. In some parts this was caused by the demoscene getting a life of its own, but in some cases it was pure necessity; a lot of groups got busted in the late 80's and rather then quitting altogether they went to the legal scene, the demo scene.
I have no doubt there would still be a demo scene today, even it hadnt been for cracking, but that scene would have been born later and looked a lot different then what it did, and the demo scene today would also be a lot different.
If you disrespect cracks and crackers you disrespect those active in those days, the demo scene of the past and the demo scene as of today.
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: scene database := no public access, access applications, application reviews
Information on CSDb is readily available to anyone, most of it even without user account. It might not have accured to anyone yet, but while CSDb might be a database about the scene, it is not primarily a database for or by the scene... as proven by MacGyver being an admin =D
MacGyver is not scener? Are you the head of scener accreditation office? ;-) What is making him worse scener than for example you? Give me examples. But first try to check what he actually does for the scene.. maybe you would be surprised.
Roman |
| |
The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
Seems that nowadays there's nothing interesting to say if many sceners start a witch hunting against cracking scene. |
| |
The Blue Ninja
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 4 |
I had prepared a much longer posting last time, but it timed out without me saving it.
My last comment tells it all:
"Culture in that scene has died long ago. Sad as it is."
I respect the cracking scene as it was once. This might not be very clear in my statement. It surely is the founder of the creative scene (this means all those people creativly producing output, as demo-scene is just too limiting) as it is today.
But the cracking scene lost this role many years ago. When I started being at the scene 1989 the demo/legal scene already existed. We already had this discussion back then when lamers cracked "magic disk"- and "game on"-titles and were proud of it.
Do you understand what I mean? People like that should be ashamed to be proud of doing that!
Back then crackers were needed (thinking of the giant amount of games that nobody could afford to buy them all), but nowadays with just a few commercial titles per year? Who needs crackers now? The scene? What for? In my first post I wrote some reasons that may justify crackers today like modifying games for new hardware and fixes. But releasing those few games without any (real) added value is no justification in my mind.
I knew that I would upset some people (as I have). And: Yes I may not be a member of the scene anymore in some people's eyes. But I supported the C64 longer than many of those "legends" that left it long ago, me being creative and productive.
The Blue Ninja
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
MacGyver is member of my group - Dmagic. He does a lot of support for c64.sk and CSDB which cooperate together since the beginnig. It's a positive cooperation for both sides and if you have individual problems with Maccie please discuss them privately with him. The Protovision releases aren't your property, so how can you blame him for guarding it the every possible way, especially when he does a lot of other things which help this database? There are other ways how to get that "live" software. Get it on ftp sites, or ask for e-mail sending or whatever else. Do you really need to have download link here? If you do, ask Perff for direct answer.
One thing is keeping scene traditions, and other is direct spitting into face of Protovision members and programmers, some of them even sceners. It's a "doublethink" paradox of this scene. But consider the fact that this is happening publicly and online. It's not as in past, when this was a sort-of undergorond activity. Now when there are no law enforcements and no criminal prosecution of such activites it's just about communication between us sceners. I find it quite malicious to blame Protovision for their naive, but understandable activities.
roman |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
*sigh*
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: * Is this a SCENE database or a SALES database?
* What type of scene database pays attention to copyright? A kiddie-database? Surely this site can handle such releases without this wild-censoring. The releases on FTP sites are NOT the responsibility of this database's administration.
* Does the whole argument about piracy have to be done all over again within the scene? That is crazy. This scene has existed for two decades, shouldn't we be the most mature scene of them all? Or are we still trying to discuss the principles?
* And it seems crack intros are a casualty of the whole crack thing on csdb as well, that's just not right!
Jazzcat you know my opinion about this problem. It's about the fact that scene distances shrunk... keeping traditions is harming your "eighbour" feelings.. today.. how many active sceners are there 1000? 2000? Stealing in communism was not considered bad thing to do.. people stole from resources which belonged to everyone, so why should they care. Today it's different... if you steal from your company you steal the property of your boss.. you are harming someone you know. And this is similar with today scene.. it's so small that all we do is sooner or later affecting our future. That's why I don't "eat" all those old traditions.. My sympathy or antipathy towards protovision doesn't have anything to do with that...
|
| |
cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
Quote: MacGyver is member of my group - Dmagic. He does a lot of support for c64.sk and CSDB which cooperate together since the beginnig. It's a positive cooperation for both sides and if you have individual problems with Maccie please discuss them privately with him. The Protovision releases aren't your property, so how can you blame him for guarding it the every possible way, especially when he does a lot of other things which help this database? There are other ways how to get that "live" software. Get it on ftp sites, or ask for e-mail sending or whatever else. Do you really need to have download link here? If you do, ask Perff for direct answer.
One thing is keeping scene traditions, and other is direct spitting into face of Protovision members and programmers, some of them even sceners. It's a "doublethink" paradox of this scene. But consider the fact that this is happening publicly and online. It's not as in past, when this was a sort-of undergorond activity. Now when there are no law enforcements and no criminal prosecution of such activites it's just about communication between us sceners. I find it quite malicious to blame Protovision for their naive, but understandable activities.
roman
Roman,
Sure MacGuyver is protecting it as best as he can,
by removing locks from my entries and then locking them
again under his name , pfff what do you call this sort
of behaviour ? , I call it a display of POWER that he
seems to be having here.
Blue Ninja (who ever he is) wrote about MacGuyver doing
such a great things for CSDB, like correcting stuff and adding stuff, well who cares ?, we are all doing this and even without having ADMIN rights, the fact is, this guy is just
abusing his admin power by looking who has down voted PTV and to see if there are cracked versions from PTV games at CSDB, I mean, do I really still trust CSDB from this point on ? , not really, I lost all trust in this very nice system that I've been supporting since a couple of years.
I still hope the CSDB staff will REMOVE the admin rights from Mc-I change everything-Guyver!,
I told Perff today that I will no longer support CSDB with this guy being an admin, a shame for such a nice project here, but power minded people seem to win it.
Niels
|
| |
Earthshaker
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 118 |
If this is a Scene Database, what are those Protovision games doing in here? Only the cracked versions should be here with or without the download links. |
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: If this is a Scene Database, what are those Protovision games doing in here? Only the cracked versions should be here with or without the download links.
apparently they like some kinds of promotion better than other |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote:
Roman,
Sure MacGuyver is protecting it as best as he can,
by removing locks from my entries and then locking them
again under his name , pfff what do you call this sort
of behaviour ? , I call it a display of POWER that he
seems to be having here.
Blue Ninja (who ever he is) wrote about MacGuyver doing
such a great things for CSDB, like correcting stuff and adding stuff, well who cares ?, we are all doing this and even without having ADMIN rights, the fact is, this guy is just
abusing his admin power by looking who has down voted PTV and to see if there are cracked versions from PTV games at CSDB, I mean, do I really still trust CSDB from this point on ? , not really, I lost all trust in this very nice system that I've been supporting since a couple of years.
I still hope the CSDB staff will REMOVE the admin rights from Mc-I change everything-Guyver!,
I told Perff today that I will no longer support CSDB with this guy being an admin, a shame for such a nice project here, but power minded people seem to win it.
Niels
I understand your point, but maybe you should contact MacGyver and ask him not to touch entries added by you. It seems his intention is to keep them without links, and I understand why he does it. One thing is getting credits/points for cracking achievments, other things is giving links to cracks of currently distributed games here. I think everyone (who wants to play them) knows where to get them, or sooner or later gets them. It would be nice if we pretended that we respect PTV for their vain effort of pleasing this ungrateful scene ;-)
Downvoting sucks. I would appreciate the transparent voting system. Then we wouldn't have to discuss Maccies rights to check anonymous voters names. |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
we've been discussing transparent votes for years now, but the very same administration that refuses to do something about it is the very same administration that allows MacGyver to do as he sees fit, to unlock cracks of his own games while his own claim to fame (if you can call it that) is a so-called story-board (read: textedit) of an X-Ample game.
Clearly, we're working with two standards here... games by others are fair game for MacGyver, MacGyver/PTV games are taboo...
braindead yet? |
| |
Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
Well, I think it's just silly. |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Well, I think it's just silly.
*ROFLMAO*
:D
Go Enno!
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
It is plain silly really. I agree with H.O's views completely. The scene started with cracking, in the beginning there was no such thing as a demo group or even a demo. There was cracking only, and it IS the basis of the scene. And it continues to be
a large part of the scene today.
TheBlueNinja: Obviously you know squat about cracking, and are biased against it in some way. So you should just keep your mouth shut on such subjects as you don't have any clue what your speaking of.
Mermaid: Are you whining again? Oh for pete sake... grow up yourself.
|
| |
Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1927 |
It's gonna be a busy day at the csdb.
"A site dedicated to gathering as much information as possible about the productions, the groups, the sceners and the events in the Commodore 64 scene."
A site which indeed is an excellent meeting place for sceners of today and the past, but it sure mustn't stay that way.
Lose your credibility now, keep it lost for the next decade actually. I still don't respect some people from the past for the work they delivered ...
... which takes me straight to Protovision.
I am a cracker, I used to be a cracker and I will remain a cracker forever :)
- but I also fixed games from time to time, leading me to take a close look at some codings. I am for sure not a good coder at all - heck NO - still I can see the difference on good, bad, quick and sluggish code. Seen it from this level, I am not willing to pay the money PTV is asking for MOST of their productions - ESPECIALLY not 8.00 Euro for e.g. VirtualAss which is a proven resource and stolen in major parts from TASS.
(Atleast admit it properly, like we do, and release it for free to the public, no?)
I agree that people want to protect their property and I see the conflict of interest csdb and PTV have at this point. Still, under *no circumstances* the database should get compromised in this way.
That makes it unreliable and renders some contributions people do here simply useless.
Will make you loose a larger part of your userbase aswell probably, or make people withdraw their entries even - who knows.
The CSDB staff should by itself decide which way to go, since they host the system. They need to point out a few things though and should make their point clear to the public then. Always considering that they apparently count themselves in as sceners and atleast all of the cracking scene here (an interestingly large part) will not accept censorship.
You even comply to most countries laws by ONLY placing a link and not offering a direct download from your servers.
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC |
| |
anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 267 |
Seven pointed me to this discussion - and to my surprise we are warming up the same discussions again.
In any case, a public statement with regards to the accusations of 'taking over' locked entries in the 'db' from the admin team or the accused would be appreciated.
If the assumed rules have changed, it would be helpful to know the new rules, and to see that they applied to everyone. What about 'stolen' music in demos for example? ;-)
/Frank |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Since some people here seem to be born clueless, I guess I need to spell it out...
People responsible for something like
Mega Starforce Remix
have no right to suddenly go all huffy about copyright.
It's as easy as that. |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: we've been discussing transparent votes for years now, but the very same administration that refuses to do something about it is the very same administration that allows MacGyver to do as he sees fit, to unlock cracks of his own games while his own claim to fame (if you can call it that) is a so-called story-board (read: textedit) of an X-Ample game.
Clearly, we're working with two standards here... games by others are fair game for MacGyver, MacGyver/PTV games are taboo...
braindead yet?
There is one difference. That game is an old game, those games are (more or less) new and in distribution. I can't take this from you as a killing argument, although I admit that it's lame to claim full credits for remixed game.
I don't know if Burglar reacted on your post, but I agree with him, such behaviour as with MegaStarforce Remix is silly.
Roman |
| |
Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
I was responding in general.
Anyway, my crack of Ice Guys got censored, eventhough the game is from 1997, so the 'new' issue doesn't count at all.
It's just silly. |
| |
Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
I think this blows way out of proportion.
Being The Copyright Hater, I see this removing as a futile attempt to preserve something that is freeware for a long time now.
What is the %$#$&%# point?
But if Protovision has the true (c) mark,I can understand that they need all the money they can get,just to cover the expenses. |
| |
Earthshaker
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 118 |
If this MacGyver guy doe so much work on this site, why hasn't he responded here? And where are the site maintainers? Maybe they can clear some things up. |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
I don't see that cracking is a driving force of todays C64 scene. But I must admit that it's the most anoying part of todays scene, especially with all those irritated returning sceners who despise oldie cracking groups and with all this serious fuzz around newly cracked games. It's almost as anoying as game remakes, mp3 remixes and retro. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
just remove the damned games already. they donnt belong here if they arent cracks (and thus not scene related)
and everyone else gets a 10 as cracker from me now
|
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Enno beat me to it, anyways...
Ice Guys is from July 1997.
That's almost 8 years.
It was 'censored' "due to copyright".
Most of the games on here are copyrighted.
Protovision members cared shit about copyrights in the past and present, as long as it's not "their" money on the line.
I don't see why the scene should readly accept and support hypocrites like that.
|
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: MacGyver is member of my group - Dmagic. He does a lot of support for c64.sk and CSDB which cooperate together since the beginnig. It's a positive cooperation for both sides and if you have individual problems with Maccie please discuss them privately with him. The Protovision releases aren't your property, so how can you blame him for guarding it the every possible way, especially when he does a lot of other things which help this database? There are other ways how to get that "live" software. Get it on ftp sites, or ask for e-mail sending or whatever else. Do you really need to have download link here? If you do, ask Perff for direct answer.
One thing is keeping scene traditions, and other is direct spitting into face of Protovision members and programmers, some of them even sceners. It's a "doublethink" paradox of this scene. But consider the fact that this is happening publicly and online. It's not as in past, when this was a sort-of undergorond activity. Now when there are no law enforcements and no criminal prosecution of such activites it's just about communication between us sceners. I find it quite malicious to blame Protovision for their naive, but understandable activities.
roman
have you checked macgyvers profile here?
centric+4/flt orginal supply: macgyver
spitting in the face of reflex is ok, or was he just young and naive? i'm sure you can think of an excuse to defend his actions, since that seems to be your main activity here at the moment |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
Quote: have you checked macgyvers profile here?
centric+4/flt orginal supply: macgyver
spitting in the face of reflex is ok, or was he just young and naive? i'm sure you can think of an excuse to defend his actions, since that seems to be your main activity here at the moment
Indeed, I supplied this one. And as you can see, I don't even try to hide it. Even added that myself.
The original was bugged like hell (the loader didn't work). And I wanted to be able to PLAY the game I bought.
It was Quiss' last work on the C64 in any case.
But just keep on writing things you know shit about. |
| |
Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1927 |
Wonder if it's worth the various fluids you can be covered with, Mac.
Rather go and answer the other things people here mentioned, coward.
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
what's there to know? we figured out by now that you're a hypocrite, and that pretty much settles it.
interesting how you didn't even try to justify the whole thing this thread is about though. |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: have you checked macgyvers profile here?
centric+4/flt orginal supply: macgyver
spitting in the face of reflex is ok, or was he just young and naive? i'm sure you can think of an excuse to defend his actions, since that seems to be your main activity here at the moment
Well... what a nice example of argumentation between two advocatus diaboli.. I think I should add one more irritating thing to my list in previous post. Hollowman and his killing arguments. ;-))) |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
@ Andreas: Why should I waste my time with explaining what is obvious? But for you it's normal to fuck around with other people's work, I know!
@ Björn: Wow, what an impressive statement! *cough*
For those who never heard of me: Why not checking who maintains the news site which you spam with your "Another new forum" posts?
Also take a look at the CSDb stats who put some content to this DB. |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
MacGyver,
This was your chance to set things straight and explain your actions regarding the deletions etc.
Instead of this you lower yourself to a non-admin worthy level by throwing mud/shit at respected sceners who actually have a point, bro.
2 of 3 lives left. Get Ready...
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
You're just a poor little wannabe with too much free time on his hands, lack of better things to do aswell as the delusion, that adding information noone really needs and posting a bit of news here or there will grant you the scene recognition you're apparently so desperately searching for.
Here's the newsflash for you:
Pissing off members of SCS*TRC, a group where each and every single member has contributed more to the scene than the entire Protovision staff combined, is not gonna help you.
Unless "moron of the decade" is what you're aiming for. |
| |
carlsson
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 41 |
CreaMD wrote: "One thing is getting credits/points for cracking achievments, other things is giving links to cracks of currently distributed games here."
Does that also mean that someone adding a crack of a freely distributable game (incl. MiniGame and Crap Game) in the future will get the download links etc censored, or is the keep clean regulation only effective on commercial material? :-/ |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: MacGyver,
This was your chance to set things straight and explain your actions regarding the deletions etc.
Instead of this you lower yourself to a non-admin worthy level by throwing mud/shit at respected sceners who actually have a point, bro.
2 of 3 lives left. Get Ready...
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl
Thanx for giving me chance to tell something to MacGyver, Scout. I agree with you. It seems that only think MacGyver can do now is to accept that some of the accusations are justified. And then gently ask people to respect the movement PTV tries to do to protect their games. Some compromise: allowing to add crack versions of the game, but not the link. Could maybe satisfy demands from both sides.
And how about me, I asked for my friends in PTV? Especially JTR who is a great dude and practically the leader of this group? JTR is a cool dode, believe me. So pretty please give'em chance.
This is my very last entry in this debate for today and ever. Have a nice nite everyobody.
Roman |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
Which games did SCS*TRC code? |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Quote: Which games did SCS*TRC code?
Lemme spell it for you:
S - C - E - N - E
Get it now?? |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
@ Seven & groepaz: Btw, where's Detonators 2 ? |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
Quote: Lemme spell it for you:
S - C - E - N - E
Get it now??
All or most members of Protovision members are sceners.
Get it now? ;-)
It seems you, as most people here, went to a frozen sleep in the early ninties and didn't mention a few things changed in the meantime. |
| |
Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
You are right..
I better get that copyright on:
LDA #$00
STA $D020
STA $D021
Whenever somebody uses this,I will get some money..
Ayeah,the times sure are evolving.. :( |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
You're just that dumb, aren't you?
I'm done trying to explain it to you, maybe you give Roman's last post some thought, if you're actually capable of such that is. If not, for your own good, try not to post anymore cause it's only getting worse. Have someone with a brain explain it to you first or, even better, have that person post for you.
P.S.: As for Detonators 2, the answer to that was written to this very database 2 years ago, oh my admin. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
"@ Seven & groepaz: Btw, where's Detonators 2 ?"
how exactly is that related to you and your abuse of admin rights?
and while we are at asking unrelated stupid questions, whats your latest world first?
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CreamD: I'm not questioning his support for the database or anything else.
Back to the point.
Deletion of links and taking over ownership of groups cracks is wrong.
Courtesy would have been for MacGyver to message the groups involved and done it in a respectful way, after all, this is a SCENE database, not a SALES database. MacGyver should show some fucking respect.
MacGyver removed:
Hockey Mania+ Docs, Ice Guys and Bombmania links.
He also removed the Hockey Mania file on ftp://c64.rulez.org
from a private ONSLAUGHT folder that OUR webpage was using for a download link. Fortunately I co-maintain that FTP and restored things.
Rather than him fucking around like a little girl, he should come clean with this shit and keep to the point. Stop changing the point MacGyver, answer these allegations.
Se7en said it best:
"Clearly, we're working with two standards here... games by others are fair game for MacGyver, MacGyver/PTV games are taboo..."
|
| |
Courage
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 16 |
Hi!
Thanks for all these comments! Before i'll try to explain something please let me say "sorry" for my bad english. Now i feel ashamed of falling asleep during our english lessons in school. ;)
Many years ago i've tried to be a cracker. A bad one...but a cracker. Now, many years later, i'm not very proud of that. But that's a thing of the past...i can't turn back the clock! :( Without crackers the C64 wouldn't be what it is, but in 2005 "cracking" is (in my opinion) senseless. It destroyed more than it helps to keep the scene alive. Bugfixing old games, fix them for IDE64, CMD-Hardware or whatever: That's great! But being proud making a "first release" of a gamepreview!?!?!? I don't know! ;)
And i think there is a difference between a game which is purchasable and a game which is not any longer possible to buy. I think these are two totaly different things! Where is my error in reasoning?
Also we have different opinions about the "scene". I think in 2005 everyone who like his c64 and try to keep it alive is part of the "scene". Maybe I'm wrong: In that case it would be better that every PTV-Release would be deleted from this database.
But remember: The aim of PTV is not to earn money. That's simply impossible! The number of 35 sold "Hockey Mania"'s is not enough to drive Ferrari! ;) When PTV was founded it was the aim trying to keep the scene alive by being the last commercial softwarecompany. We thought it could be encouraging for the scene that there are some ppl who sell hard- and software. Did we failed? I don't think so! Represented at for example many partys and printed magazines I think we are part of the todays scene and keep the c64-spirit (at least a bit) alive.
So i'm not really understand why we will be so much attacked! Someone think it's unbelievable that this fucking PTV sells no tape-version of their games. Someone is pissed off by Hockey Mania. Someone hate our lame Intros and so on...! I'm a bit sad that there are only a few ppl who treat our work with respect. We don't say that we make the ultimate 10 of 10 gamehits. It's nearly impossible to code a game which satisfy EVERYONE! It is so heavy to make criticism in a normal way?
About Mega Starforce Remix: This remix should be a tribute to this great game. Ok, some of these credits are very hapless...but nothing to be exercised so much!
@MacGyver: Sleep one night and than take a stand! But reasonable!! To gripe is actually not the best way to resume this discussion!
@rest: MacGyver has to answer to some of these allegations...but I hope i could clear up all this a little bit. If there are any questions feel free to send me a PM or an email! Again: Maybe the sense of my text could be a little curios...the reason is my crappy english! :)
Bye! Yours Courage |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Courage: Thanks for your comments. A lot of us here are hoping that MacGyver can answer some of the allegations presented to him.
I order games from Protovision myself, in fact I have 3 here that are "unreleased". I'm a bit saddened that Protovision don't try to increase their packing quality just a little bit. I mean, its just a disk in a fucking plastic bag, come on! But this is beside the point...
MacGyver: as Courage wisely said, have a good night's sleep and then come back here and answer some simple questions, its not that hard.
|
| |
Courage
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 16 |
Quote: Courage: Thanks for your comments. A lot of us here are hoping that MacGyver can answer some of the allegations presented to him.
I order games from Protovision myself, in fact I have 3 here that are "unreleased". I'm a bit saddened that Protovision don't try to increase their packing quality just a little bit. I mean, its just a disk in a fucking plastic bag, come on! But this is beside the point...
MacGyver: as Courage wisely said, have a good night's sleep and then come back here and answer some simple questions, its not that hard.
Ok Jazzcat! The packing quality is a point we'll have to discuss in Protovision. But with (as i told) 35 selled units each product it's hard to upgrade the package by holding the price. And with a higher price i'm afraid much more ppl will say that we do all this to make profit! :( |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Well, Hockey Mania was expensive for me. I send packages from Australia to Europe. It costs $3au for post and around 10c for a blank disk. Which is around 2 euro. That calculates to about 80% profit from Protovision already?
I'm sorry, but the packaging should be better, the sales would be better, ignore the profit. If profit is needed, another platform is the alternative. As you know, C64 is for fun these days.
|
| |
fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
brrraaaaaiiiiiiinnnnnssssss.. |
| |
Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Ok, seeing as this seems to have gone over certain people's heads, I'll restate it. As Twoflower pointed out, releasing commercial games should be about value adding.
It's an old old argument, people that download pirate copies of games are not the ones who are interested in the value of an original. These people are not directly in your market.
A game with nice packaging, something that makes it feel like you are getting value for your money, that will guarantee sales. If you cater for that, even crack releases become free publicity for your game, if it's good enough people from outside your initial market may want the value of the extras you add to your commercial release.
One old example I can think of is Ultima and it's map on a tea towel. I thought that was great at the time.
These days all it would take is some nice packaging...
The Blue Ninja said this:
"But releasing those few games without any (real) added value is no justification in my mind."
I put that straight back to Protovision like Twoflower did, is releasing commercial games in nothing other than a plastic bag adding any value whatsoever? Or with that level on inconsideration to your consumers make them feel that a pirate copy would be enough.
After all, at least a crack comes with a funky intro and a trainer, and possibly even bug fixes.
This should be seen as an opportunity to change the way you are doing business. Surely if Hockey Mania has only sold 35 copies since 2003, cracking is not a serious threat to it's sales. If you think about it clearly, this is another method of distribution that could create even more sales.
With so few sales, and such a small market, and the justification of wanting to make some money from all of your hard work (which is fair enough), wouldn't it be even better to distribute your games as shareware? Donationware? Beerware? Any other method has to be more profitable than making only 35 sales over that time.
But then Courage does point out that Protovision's aim is not to make money. What's the problem with crack releases of their games then?
Is Protovision planning to release Metal Dust on a few disks in a plastic bag? If so, I am sure that would be a great disappointment to many, and will do nothing for potential sales.
Protovision, take a step back, try to see past the good you have done for the community, and see how you might make a win/win situation for the scene with a little maturity and responsibility. |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
I wonder how some people can come up with this "in nothing other than a plastic bag"-thingie. Even cheap games like Team Patrol and Hockey Mania come with a colored disclabel and a printed manual. Actually, a photo of what you get when buying a game from us can be seen at our online shop.
As for Virtual Ass: It is available for free download. It
is Appreciate Ware, so you are free to pay, but you don't have to.
Protovision is not commercial since we only cover our costs, the rest of the money goes to the creator of the particular product. Anyhow, calling anything "commercial" beeing for the C64 in 2005 is pretty strange.
@ Slarti: As you can see from the Metal Dust section at our homepage, various news items and from the new trailer, Metal Dust will be available with box and colored (!) manual.
Btw, if you consider yourself beeing a really good cracker, go ahead and do a bugfixed version of Turrican 3 - if you can, that is. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
MacGyver: once again avoiding the points.
What gives you the right to remove external links to CSDB which point to groups cracks? Haven't you read the CSDB disclaimer?
What gives you the right to abuse your admin power and view who downvoted you?
What gives you the right to have Hockey Mania removed from a private folder on an FTP you have no affiliation with?
|
| |
Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
@mac:"Btw, if you consider yourself beeing a really good cracker, go ahead and do a bugfixed version of Turrican 3 - if you can, that is."
Guess you are a bit off topic with this. It has nothing to do with cracking in t3. All the bugs in the game are intentionally done by AEG as he believes that this state is all you could get out of your c64.
I dont spend half of my life in recoding this game.
If aeg someday finds the time to fix some bugs then he should do it. and well, you are free to do it yourself, just download the source and off you go.
maybe you can make use of the 4 player adapter or the scpu ;-D |
| |
fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
I'd rather an encrypted hiscore save file for gianna sisters, to stop people cheating the high scores |
| |
ThunderBlade
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 77 |
Well, I haven't read all these postings, so just a few points.
1) 'Respected Sceners' - those who celebrated themselves back then in magazine charts made by themselves, are now creating those CSDb group/scener entries with the same empty words like 'elite' etc., without ever having done anything for the C64 scene at all. Cracking unprotected games is ridiculous. Period.
2) Dividing C64 fans into 'scene' and 'non-scene' is nonsense today. Everyone still owning and using a real C64 today belongs to the C64 scene more or less.
3) Calling Protovision a 'commercial' group is ignorant. Commercial would mean trying to make profit. PTV isn't trying to achieve that.
4) Keeping up 'traditions' that don't make sense any more is mentally retarded.
5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew.
6) Cracking on the C64 in 1982-1991 was heroic. Cracking on the C64 in 1992-2001 was ridiculous. Cracking on the C64 TODAY is, well. Guess what.
And finally - look at all those people here who are against MacGyver and what he does, or Protovision and what they do. What do those people who are so upset here all have in common? They are afraid. They are so terribly afraid that the only thing they can be proud of in their lives - their 'cracking' activity - is taken away from them. Is put to a place where they can't be proud of it anymore. Which could turn the so called 'respected scener' to a 'despised person'. So, this tells it all. Their self confidence is suffering so heavily, that they shoot all they have against this kind of attack. I know what I am talking about, this happened in a similar way 10 years ago.
Nothing has changed - at least for them. Back then they were great, or thought that they were great - and they still WANT to be great, now they clutch at straws, desperately. Traditions, facts from the past but not from the present, faking history. Why we don't read comments from real crackers here? Because the real crackers long time ago stopped cracking and started making copy protections, or founded their own software companies, or whatever. They don't care about this ridiculous discussion. They have found new things to be proud of. They don't have to steal other people's work any more to look cool.
So folks, get a life.
|
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
"3) Calling Protovision a 'commercial' group is ignorant. Commercial would mean trying to make profit. PTV isn't trying to achieve that."
then who except a commercial company would even remotely care about their stuff beeing downloadable (or not) via csdb?
"5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew."
and ppl backstabbing on others because they voted them down is what? SS STYLE i say
"Why we don't read comments from real crackers here? Because the real crackers long time ago stopped cracking and started making copy protections, or founded their own software companies, or whatever. They don't care about this ridiculous discussion. They have found new things to be proud of. They don't have to steal other people's work any more to look cool."
you have zero insight into todays cracking scene do you? the so called "real" crackers are no more active on the c64 (i have to agree cracking c64 stuff in 2005 is ridiculous) - but they are still cracking. (also look up the term "stealing" and how it doesnt apply to cracking at all)
oh well, we still don't know why all that justifies the abuse of admin rights.
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
ThunderBlade: I have a feeling you will regret saying some of those words. You comment about something you know nothing about.
People release games today because they enjoy doing it or they do it for nostalgic reasons. People code games today because they enjoy doing it or for nostalgic reasons. People create demos today because they enjoy doing it or for nostalgic reasons. Saying that cracking on the C64 is crap in 2005 is just bullshit!!! We release games. Is it the crackers fault that Protovision are too lame to put some serious protection on their games? Give us a challenge with some of your titles!!! (Instead of having MacGyver challenge us to fix the bugs of an source-available-to-public-Turrican 3, which is the game coders duty!). Defining what crackers do is another matter and has nothing with this forum thread. This database holds C64 Scene products, which include cracks, these should be respected equally as any other "scene" release. They haven't been respected and thats the whole point of this thread.
Keep to the point ThunderBlade!! Why do the rules get bent for Protovision?
Why has MacGyver accessed a private folder on an FTP site he had no affiliation with?
Regarding Downvoting. What gives MacGyver the right to view who does this when no one else does?
"Stealing other people's work to look cool" - You really have got it all wrong haven't you?! As a cracker you keep a specific philosophy the whole of your life. I suggest you have a bit of a read on http://home.c2i.net/nirgendwo/cdne/
"Cracking on the C64 in 1992-2001 was ridiculous." How so? When Onslaught NTSC fixed IT'S MAGIC (C) PROTOVISION and gave you guys the original (fixed) so you could distribute in the USA, you weren't finding that so "ridiculous" now were you?!
Try keep to the point ThunderBlade, MacGyver has to justify his actions and so far he has been a COWARD!
Copyright finns inte!
|
| |
Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote:4) Keeping up 'traditions' that don't make sense any more is mentally retarded.
for a moment I thought you were referring to selling c64 games when only 35 people were buying them :) |
| |
Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Yes Macgyver , please address the questions brought to you.
Thunder Blade. Crackers today are about data preservation, keeping these old games from being lost forever. Becuase the "old" crackers couldn't do it right the first time, due to time pressures of the scene in those days. So I beleive preserving these games in 100% working state is very important indeed. Lest we all spend thousands of dollars collecting originals (which I like to do anyways) and then having to wait for our crusty old 1541's to load these some times dog slow loaders and beat the shit out of our drives... no thanks.
So we REAL CRACKERS will keep doing what we do, regardless of your opinions. It IS a hobby and we enjoy it, so clutching at straws for fame and recognition would just be a fucking moronic thing to do these days. Why? Nobody fucking cares about that anymore...
It's an old ass argument, quality over quantity, isn't it stupid to make such comparisons over it? Been done to death...
|
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote:
5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew.
afaik streettuff gave macgyver a 1 as Public Relations Manager, and as we can all see, this seems rather justified
Quote:
And finally - look at all those people here who are against MacGyver and what he does, or Protovision and what they do. What do those people who are so upset here all have in common?
And look at those who defend him, what do they have in common? Maccie is lucky having a brother and a brother in law to defend him when he isnt able defend himself beyond using the rhetorical skills of a four year old
|
| |
Trash
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
In response to Thunderblade:
Programming games nobody wants is idiotic, trying to sell them is even stupider but I can respect one would like to keep them oneself and not getting them spread.
In general, since cracking is a big tradition on the little commie everybody should respect that. The crackers are generally good at what they AND at what they don't do, they (even those that still are active) do earn respect in my eyes, their work is in my opinion just as well as the gameprogrammes work a bit of history with it's place in the demoscene. All in all, if you like a game buy it, if you don't please make sure you have access to the cracked version, someone else might like it. |
| |
HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 727 |
Going off topic..
Comparing a game of today and a demo production of today, it's only history that speaks for which one is possible to sell and which one is only possible to spread. I'm wondering why demo makers see CSDB as a brilliant place to spread their demo(s), while certain game makers just see it as a threat to their creations. What if i'll put a f**kn copy-protection on my next demo and sell it instead of spreading it here. Copyright is just lame by nature. |
| |
H.O
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 70 |
(All quotes from Thunderblade)
"Well, I haven't read all these postings, so just a few points."
Maybe you should have read the posts before trying to reply to them. That way you wouldnt have been so off the mark.
"1) 'Respected Sceners' - those who celebrated themselves back then in magazine charts made by themselves, are now creating those CSDb group/scener entries with the same empty words like 'elite' etc., without ever having done anything for the C64 scene at all. Cracking unprotected games is ridiculous. Period."
I dont see myself as respected. Heck, I dont even see myself as a scener but rather a retired scener these days. The time I put into CSDb -- which admittedly is a lot less then those who have contributed the most -- is to document those years I was active. One of the groups I was a member of -- Science 451 -- were active as crackers, and -- as we have already established -- since cracking was important in the birth of this scene I'd like be given a good reason if I can no longer provide information about the work that was done back then.
"4) Keeping up 'traditions' that don't make sense any more is mentally retarded."
And here I thought the database part of CSDb actually implied storing data about what has been done (and is done) on the scene. That includes data about cracks.
"5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew."
Agreed, but the question is; is Macgyver doing a good job? As far as I can tell -- from an outsiders perspective -- he is abusing his powers. Now, this happens in a lot of communities; whether they are boards/forums, online games or databases, but some people cant just handle having more "power" (quoted since power implies strength, and I've always seen administrator rights as more of a burden) then the average user and starts abusing it. I've seen it happen on forums, and I've seen it happen on online games (mostly MUDs) and it's equally sad to see every time. You are given additional "power" to be able to serve the group better, not to better your own goals.
"6) Cracking on the C64 in 1982-1991 was heroic. Cracking on the C64 in 1992-2001 was ridiculous. Cracking on the C64 TODAY is, well. Guess what."
I left the scene 1990, so I wont comment on anything after that year. But, the point is; cracking is a part of the scene, shouldnt that equal that cracking also should be part of a scene database?
"And finally - look at all those people here who are against MacGyver and what he does,"
My problems are:
1. As a scene database, my opinion is that CSDb should contain data (including links) about cracks, since cracking was (I still dont want to comment on the scene as of today) a founding force in the scene as of today.
2. If there are restrictions to what can be linked, and what can not _this should be clearly stated in some way_ If we cant link to cracks of games released 95 or later (or whatever year is being set) this should be clearly stated. If we cant link to cracks of games released to Protovision (or whichever companies that is included) this should be clearly stated. It should be stated on the main page, and every time you add a production. This statement should also include a link to a longer text motivating why.
3. Macgyver has been accused of abusing his powers, by overtaking ownership of entries and seeing who has given him low votes. He needs to adress these accusations. I dont know who he is; clearly he wasnt active the same time period as I was, but whoever he is, it is a major concern _if_ an administrator is abusing his "powers" .
"or Protovision and what they do."
I've never commented on Protovision. In fact, I think it is great that someone cares enough about the c64 to form a commercial company. But, this discussion is not about Protovision of if what they are doing is good or not, but rather about what CSDb should contain and what liberties someone with admin rights should have.
"What do those people who are so upset here all have in common? They are afraid. They are so terribly afraid that the only thing they can be proud of in their lives - their 'cracking' activity - is taken away from them. Is put to a place where they can't be proud of it anymore. Which could turn the so called 'respected scener' to a 'despised person'. So, this tells it all. Their self confidence is suffering so heavily, that they shoot all they have against this kind of attack. I know what I am talking about, this happened in a similar way 10 years ago."
You seriously should read the posts you reply to before you reply to them. You dont know me, and you dont know why I posted or what I posted. If you had read my post you would at least know what I am saying and stop these silly accusations.
|
| |
Street Tuff
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 88 |
afaik streettuff gave macgyver a 1 as Public Relations Manager, and as we can all see, this seems rather justified
well... my votes are HIDDEN but you're absolutely correct.
my votes reflect my OPINION about how a person managed to do something in a special field or show respect to his/hers talent.
|
| |
Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
whenever there is a slightly unclear thread every post tends to pull the discussion to a direction where the author has a lot to say about, regardless of the initial points. we end up with threads like this where it is not clear anymore what was being discussed. in this thread what are you discussing?
a- cracking and how much respect it deserves
b- mac-gayver's use of admin rights
c- protovision and their worth
d- csdb site administration
e- c64.sk administration
f- turrican 3 fixes
g- copyrights
although it is all mixed up and quite unfruitful now, let me add a few of my views
- c64.sk and csdb are two very important and succesful sites . they contribute a lot to the pseudo-active atmosphere
- csdb administration has been quite inactive with regards to some of the feedback that came to this site for some unknown reason. things like transparent voting has been discussed many times and csdb admins did not act in parallel with the outcome of discussions. this lowers their credibility
- i do not play any protovision games but i think it is good to have a commercial company around at least to sell some hardware.
- noone has a right to view some hidden info even if he is an admin. especially when most members complained that info (votes) should not be hidden but the admins kept them hidden. it gives really terrible impression
- i respect crackers of the past and crackers of today. i do not see any "justification difference" between coding a demo for c64 or cracking.
- copyright and intellectual property are fundamentally flawed concepts of todays capitalist world. but it is a long philosophical discussion.
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
The CSDB staff need to become involved. Why aren't they acting on what we have discussed? Are their heads up Protovision's arse that much that we have to unplug them (just like in the Matrix) so that they can see reality? Come on guys!!!
Whats going on!?!!
And as for MacGyver, he is just a COWARD and cannot react to any of the points and allegations made against him.
CBA and myself want our entries given back to us (Hockey Mania, Ice Guys and Bombmania).
MacGyver should have his access to this site revoked! He just abuses his power here.
This is not a discussion of the good things that CSDB and c64.sk does. This is a discussion on some bad things that have happened. Let's discuss these things (hello CSDB administration, is anyone home??)
|
| |
cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
Quote: The CSDB staff need to become involved. Why aren't they acting on what we have discussed? Are their heads up Protovision's arse that much that we have to unplug them (just like in the Matrix) so that they can see reality? Come on guys!!!
Whats going on!?!!
And as for MacGyver, he is just a COWARD and cannot react to any of the points and allegations made against him.
CBA and myself want our entries given back to us (Hockey Mania, Ice Guys and Bombmania).
MacGyver should have his access to this site revoked! He just abuses his power here.
This is not a discussion of the good things that CSDB and c64.sk does. This is a discussion on some bad things that have happened. Let's discuss these things (hello CSDB administration, is anyone home??)
Infact I've got back my entries , Ice Guys + Bomb Mania.
But I'm not allowed to add a link to an enternal place.
Great post done by HO/Science451 and Nightlord,
this thread should stick to the subject !
* Link removed due to copyright"
And to Mr. MacGuyver,
Can you for once just reply to the critics here and
just tell everybody why you are such a big boy using
your 'ADMIN' powers ?
Niels |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
"Infact I've got back my entries , Ice Guys + Bomb Mania.
But I'm not allowed to add a link to an enternal place."
leet hax0r skills required there. remove and readd the entry :=P |
| |
Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
I guess I should say something...
As I see it there are two main issues here:
MacGyvers admin-usage and the removal of links to cracks.
About MacGyver let me first state that he is NOT admin. He have what we call a 'trusted' status, which a few other users also have. This is mainly people we know and trust, and who are willing to put some effort into keeping CSDb clean. Therefor they have a few additional right like being able to alter locked entries and see anonymous votes to spot suspicious votings, and pass such information on to us.
These rights should of course not be abused, and we have also confronted MacGyver with this. What should happen is still being discussed.
The other thing about the removal of links. In CSDb we have the general policy that if someone have a problem, rightfully of course, with some of the information in CSDb, they can asked for it to be removed. This was mainly for people not wanting their name, address, e-mail, phone, etc. in CSDb, but is also the case for entire entries - and yes, download links.
Since the beginning of CSDb I have altered and removed a lot of information from CSDb on such requests, and no one have complained. Now silly 3 links have been removed and all hell breaks loose.
So now I'm also involved in this discussion - after 100+ posts. I think that no thread have ever had so much attention before. ;)
(Please remember that this site is not my fulltime occupation but more like a hobby, so I'm not always so active)
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Perff: but this still doesn't fix the problem. External links to this site are not the concern of CSDB and out of your control (remember the disclaimer).
I now have Hockey Mania+D/Onslaught back under the right ownership (I created the entry), if I link to The Digital Dungeon, will the link be removed (AGAIN)? And if it is removed can you please ellaborate on why you have a DISCLAIMER that you don't appear to follow? |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
"The other thing about the removal of links. In CSDb we have the general policy that if someone have a problem, rightfully of course, with some of the information in CSDb, they can asked for it to be removed. This was mainly for people not wanting their name, address, e-mail, phone, etc. in CSDb, but is also the case for entire entries - and yes, download links.
Since the beginning of CSDb I have altered and removed a lot of information from CSDb on such requests, and no one have complained. Now silly 3 links have been removed and all hell breaks loose."
removing private info (which shouldnt be added by 3rd parties in the first place) is one thing, removing releases which are "out in the wild" already is a different thing IMHO.
like someone else already said, there should be a policy for everyone to read that clearly states what should be added and what shouldnt.
|
| |
Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
The disclaimer is there because anyone can enter anything, and because noone checks all that is entered. So theoreticly Bin Laden can use CSDb to communicate through. :)
However, when information are found by someone that dosn't think it should be here, and are somehow entitled to this information, we will of course remove it.
This also regards links to copyrighted material, so yes - if you reenter the links and Protovision asks me to remove it, it will be removed.
"What's the point in having cracks in CSDb then?"
Basically CSDb is a site of information of the scene - not an archive of all cracks and demos ever made. That there are download-links to a lot of the releases inhere is only a plus. (Actually dl-links was first added to CSDb after about 6 months)
Most cracks are no longer copyright-enforced, so there are no problems in having links to these. So I don't see the big problem in a single company that still would like to enforce their rights on 3 (THREE!!!) games. |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
1. Stop comparing cracking on the C64 today with cracking on the C64 15 years ago - this is nonsense.
2. Stop calling Protovision commercial, cause as I pointed out before, we only cover our costs (not even!) and forward the bigger amount to the creator of the product.
3. Hockey Mania, as well as Ice Guys and Bomb Mania, are (C)opyright Protovision and so no one but Protovision (and the game's authors, if they are not a member of PTV) have a right to decide if and how they are going to be offered for free download.
3. In contrast to most other C64 games, these games are still sold today. Get that!
4. If you want to try out the games, get the previews available.
5. We try to keep our games compatible to other devices like those from CMD. Copy protections hamper the games working on these drives.
6. Stop calling my points off topic, but you come up e. g. with me providing Centric. I bought most (if not all) upper quality games for the C64 from the mid-90'es on, beeing it Flummies World, Walkerz and Leisure Suit Leo II or titles when they were still distributed by the authors, like It's Magic 1, Ice Guys and Bomb Mania.
7. Interesting you always pretended to be nice towards me, StreeTuff, but downvoted me without given any particular reason. Instead, you shout at my for "misusing" my admin rights.
8. Nice seeing some guys showing their real faces, next to StreeTuff e.g. Hollowman and Fungus. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
"Most cracks are no longer copyright-enforced, so there are no problems in having links to these. So I don't see the big problem in a single company that still would like to enforce their rights on 3 (THREE!!!) games."
the problem is that a crack of say, jumpman-jr, is in no way "less illegal" than a crack of ice-guys or even windows-xp. whats enforced or not doesnt really matter unless everything is threatened equally. so it should be "links to cracks are ok" or "links to cracks are bad" not "links to cracks are bad except to those 3 which for some strange reason we dont know ourselves are different" |
| |
H.O
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 70 |
Quote: The disclaimer is there because anyone can enter anything, and because noone checks all that is entered. So theoreticly Bin Laden can use CSDb to communicate through. :)
However, when information are found by someone that dosn't think it should be here, and are somehow entitled to this information, we will of course remove it.
This also regards links to copyrighted material, so yes - if you reenter the links and Protovision asks me to remove it, it will be removed.
"What's the point in having cracks in CSDb then?"
Basically CSDb is a site of information of the scene - not an archive of all cracks and demos ever made. That there are download-links to a lot of the releases inhere is only a plus. (Actually dl-links was first added to CSDb after about 6 months)
Most cracks are no longer copyright-enforced, so there are no problems in having links to these. So I don't see the big problem in a single company that still would like to enforce their rights on 3 (THREE!!!) games.
Ok, I can buy that. I dont necessarily agree, but I can see your point and why you have it.
That said, I'd like to see that policy highlighted a bit more; maybe a disclaimer at the top of the "add entry" page, or something similar.
(And my apologies for qouting so much text for a short answer, but I am a bit lazy at the moment)
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
MacGyver: why didn't you just message the crack groups who uploaded these releases and inform them of your wishes and discussed it with them? Of course if you took over their entry and removed the download link they would be insulted, what would you expect?
What do you expect from people who have had their anonymous votes looked at by you and when you question them why they downvoted such and such. This is abuse of power and you know it!
Perff:
This is such a huge database you cannot be obligated to check links. The only reason these 3 links have been removed is because your little POLICEMAN with GOD-STATUS has removed them. How come Ice Guys can still be downloaded yet the SCS&TRC version is removed? (Ice Guys)
This is crap!
|
| |
yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Nobody gets hurt if you crack jumpman-jr, but a lot of work gets dishonoured by cracking games from the last (at least half) professional c64-software company.
Instead of beeing happy that real software (including boxes, manual etc) keeps the C64 alive, some of you guys insult the protovision people.
I dont want to judge about nowaday swappers, but even in the good old times it was a little bit harder to get cracked software, so nobody should complain if he has to search longer then just enter csdb.
|
| |
Street Tuff
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 88 |
7. Interesting you always pretended to be nice towards me, StreeTuff, but downvoted me without given any particular reason. Instead, you shout at my for "misusing" my admin rights.
milo: you should be happy that you did not tried to talk with me at breakpoint after the "why do you donvoted me incident"
i was really angry and pissed about that. you tried to reach me "a whole day" on irc just to ask me this stupid question.
just remember "everyone has a RIGHT to VOTE"
it's up to the person itself what he/she votes for someone else.
and in my opinion you don't have the right to check who voted for/against you! (and then ask why one did so)
about showing my real face: F**K OFF YOU F*****G COWARD!
|
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote:
About MacGyver let me first state that he is NOT admin. He have what we call a 'trusted' status, which a few other users also have.
Maybe you trust him, but I guess it's clear now the submitters (eg. the sceners that made CSDB worthwhile) don't trust him anymore. Esspecially because of the immature way he reacts.
I vote for public hang ...err... demoting him to a normal CSDB user.
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I second that vote. MacGyver cannot be trusted. Especially when he is targetting groups only (an example of this can be why he removed the Ice Guys SCS&TRC version but not the Singular version).
Perff, please make him as having normal user access and find someone more worthy for that role. He has abused his rights and trust in this position.
|
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote:
8. Nice seeing some guys showing their real faces, next to StreeTuff e.g. Hollowman and Fungus
And what is it that i have done here that is so terrible? I have pointed out:
1. that you've supplied a certain original of a game made by sceners, which could be bought at that time.
2. That you've abused your trusted priveligies here
your first responses were just infantile, then you've excused the original supplying with that the game was bugged and that you've payed for it. can other people use the same argument about protovision games and get away with it?
and you still havent responded to the second accusation.
now do tell me, what is it that i dont know shit about?
|
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
"Nobody gets hurt if you crack jumpman-jr, but a lot of work gets dishonoured by cracking games from the last (at least half) professional c64-software company."
only (atleast halfway) decent games get copied. notice how noone is really upset about richards game, which isnt linked either :) cant see how that dishonours anyone.
"Instead of beeing happy that real software (including boxes, manual etc) keeps the C64 alive, some of you guys insult the protovision people."
this has only little to do with protovision. it has to do with an individual who is misusing his admin rights.
and ppl who want the packaging and manual will buy it, regardless of the crack. that argument has been going since the 80s and still stands.
"I dont want to judge about nowaday swappers, but even in the good old times it was a little bit harder to get cracked software, so nobody should complain if he has to search longer then just enter csdb."
that you have to explain....how was it hard to get your hands on cracked software unless your iq was below of sliced bread and you wasnt able to copy a damned floppy?
|
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I kind of like Hollowmans face. :-)
No, seriously, it'd be interesting to see what these discussions will result in. Some parts of it have been filled with mindless slagging and crap, while some points have been well made. Eventhough, this is an important discussion, I still wouldn't be too surprised if nothing all happened as a result.
But let's hold the hope high. Some suggestions:
* No commercial games belong here, unless they are cracked. If they need to be promoted, the should be promoted elsewhere. The scene, as I see it, consists of 1) the demoscene and 2) the crackingscene. That's about it. I wouldn't like to see Ocean, Hewson, etc, beeing listed here, eventhough they have been. Having PTV listed as sceners, and as a group - no problem. Just no commercial games. Once again I come to think of Iopop promoting his "executive access" to girls.c64.org (for only $19.99) on CSDb. Scene for me is something which is free and public access, commercial games isn't.
* For the sake of future security, why not ban the entire uploading of cracks here? Not the releases, not the links, but the actual uploading. Wouldn't it be safer, for CSDb's sake, to host all cracks elsewhere, like f.ex on the FTP's?
* Why not make them votes transparent so we can skip that part of the discussion? Either you take stand for what you like or not, or you don't vote at all. And I still can't remember why the votes haven't been made transparent yet. |
| |
Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
Quoting JazzcatThis is such a huge database you cannot be obligated to check links. The only reason these 3 links have been removed is because your little POLICEMAN with GOD-STATUS has removed them. How come Ice Guys can still be downloaded yet the SCS&TRC version is removed?
Surely I can't check all information, which is the reason we have the disclaimer as I said. Now MacGyver found these links and in some way he has the right to remove these links because of his relation to ptv. Normally people finding such wrong info would mail me, and I'll look at it, but his "GOD-STATUS" as you call it (which is actually far from the admin-status I have) gives him access to remove this himself.
Exactly why MacGyver is one of the few with this access is a completly other discussion, but lets just say that in the early days he showed a big interest in maintaining CSDb, and as far as I'm conserned he did a quite good job at it.
It might be silly that you can dl the other version from CSDb, but noone have complained about that link, and unless someone does - how silly it might seem - it stays there.
not much of an answer i guess, but actually there is not much to say. I'll instead repeat myself:
If anyone rightfully want's any information from CSDb removed, it will be removed.
PS. I know that the docs have never been quite good, so I'll see to it that they will be updated on this specific field. |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote:
Now MacGyver found these links and in some way he has the right to remove these links because of his relation to ptv
BINGO!
And that's just one of the things this thread is all about!
He just can't be an CSDb Admin if he doesn't know which hat to wear (eg. the Warez hat or the PTV hat)
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
"1. Stop comparing cracking on the C64 today with cracking on the C64 15 years ago - this is nonsense."
It may be less work because nowadays' "companies" don't put any effort into protection, but it's illegal now and it was illegal back then.
"2. Stop calling Protovision commercial, cause as I pointed out before, we only cover our costs (not even!) and forward the bigger amount to the creator of the product."
commercial, adj.: occupied with or engaged in commerce or work intended for commerce
Profit doesn't necessarily enter into the definition of the word.
3. Hockey Mania, as well as Ice Guys and Bomb Mania, are (C)opyright Protovision and so no one but Protovision (and the game's authors, if they are not a member of PTV) have a right to decide if and how they are going to be offered for free download.
Mega Starforce was and is copyrighted aswell, but that didn't keep you and your brother from fucking around with it.
"3. In contrast to most other C64 games, these games are still sold today. Get that!"
I'm pretty sure there's still some stock of old C64 originals someone would love to sell. For example, the GO64 Shop has quite a few originals to sell. Why don't you make yourself useful and delete links to those games aswell, and while you're at it, search the web for more shops and delete any and every link to games you find still available for buying. And include eBay please, I'd hate to not get proper money for my auctions because the game has a download link on CSDb.
"5. We try to keep our games compatible to other devices like those from CMD. Copy protections hamper the games working on these drives."
Too bad for you, isn't it?
Anyways... to Perff:
If you acknowledge download links being illegal (and we all know they are), you need to add a paragraph to your "what's allowed" list that you will delete illegal content on sight, and then need to do so, which pretty much means every single game-related download link. Also, users who add them probably need to be banned to be on the safe side.
Is that what you want?
So here's a few entries with illegal links, some even with files hosted on YOUR server, I hereby propose for removal to get you started:
Ice Guys
Oil Imperium [german]
The Train
Last Ninja 3 +
Centric +4
Mega Starforce Remix
Bburago Rally 103% + SCPU Ramdisk
Boom +4M +SCPU Ramdisk
|
| |
Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
Quote: Quote:
Now MacGyver found these links and in some way he has the right to remove these links because of his relation to ptv
BINGO!
And that's just one of the things this thread is all about!
He just can't be an CSDb Admin if he doesn't know which hat to wear (eg. the Warez hat or the PTV hat)
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl
This will not make much difference. If he didn't have that 'trusted' status he would have mailed me instead, and I would have removed them. The result would have been the same. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Perff: How he can keep one link and not the other is just plain ridiculous and you know this. Please be a little bit more realistic here and don't have your head up MacGyver's asshole so much. He is abusing his power and you don't have the courage to admit this or do something about it. Fucking pathetic.
|
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
the difference would be
a) your credibility wouldnt have gone down the drain because someone reads non public votes and then goes and complains at the ppl who gave them.
b) your credibility wouldnt have gone down the drain because someone from a commercial game company is able to fuck around with a scene database
beeing admin is a really sensible position which normally isnt given to anyone who has a strong _personal_ interest in whatever related matters, unless those are in the main focus. and commercial games arent, the scene is the main focus here.
|
| |
The Blue Ninja
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 4 |
Quote: Ok, seeing as this seems to have gone over certain people's heads, I'll restate it. As Twoflower pointed out, releasing commercial games should be about value adding.
It's an old old argument, people that download pirate copies of games are not the ones who are interested in the value of an original. These people are not directly in your market.
A game with nice packaging, something that makes it feel like you are getting value for your money, that will guarantee sales. If you cater for that, even crack releases become free publicity for your game, if it's good enough people from outside your initial market may want the value of the extras you add to your commercial release.
One old example I can think of is Ultima and it's map on a tea towel. I thought that was great at the time.
These days all it would take is some nice packaging...
The Blue Ninja said this:
"But releasing those few games without any (real) added value is no justification in my mind."
I put that straight back to Protovision like Twoflower did, is releasing commercial games in nothing other than a plastic bag adding any value whatsoever? Or with that level on inconsideration to your consumers make them feel that a pirate copy would be enough.
After all, at least a crack comes with a funky intro and a trainer, and possibly even bug fixes.
This should be seen as an opportunity to change the way you are doing business. Surely if Hockey Mania has only sold 35 copies since 2003, cracking is not a serious threat to it's sales. If you think about it clearly, this is another method of distribution that could create even more sales.
With so few sales, and such a small market, and the justification of wanting to make some money from all of your hard work (which is fair enough), wouldn't it be even better to distribute your games as shareware? Donationware? Beerware? Any other method has to be more profitable than making only 35 sales over that time.
But then Courage does point out that Protovision's aim is not to make money. What's the problem with crack releases of their games then?
Is Protovision planning to release Metal Dust on a few disks in a plastic bag? If so, I am sure that would be a great disappointment to many, and will do nothing for potential sales.
Protovision, take a step back, try to see past the good you have done for the community, and see how you might make a win/win situation for the scene with a little maturity and responsibility.
A good post IMO.
About cracking ethics:
---------------------------------------
Of course everyone has its own codex of ethics and morale.
In my own personal codex unauthorised copies nowadays are OK:
- if the user has the original, e.g. as a backup or easier
playing because of the trainers
- if the game is no more legally available
- if only a limited amount of copies are made for personal
friends (this excludes releases to the public)
- if it is used to improve the game far beyond its intended
capabilities (e.g. to make it work on other hardware) as
long as the other requirements are met
The law (at least here in germany) ist much more strict than that, as none of these things are allowed anymore. So you can see that I am not a "hardliner".
A lot of people think similar to this (except most of the crackers of course). At least most members of PTV do and some people of the scene I know.
In the case of the PTV games the criteria are not met which is the reasen why PTV tries its best to make steps against the release of cracks. No one of PTV really thinks it can be avoided, but at least we can try our best.
About PTVs business model:
------------------------------------------
PTV tries its best to keep the development of C64 games running. The intention is clear: Keep the C64 and its scene alive by providing new high quality games. Without financial compensation the motivation would be much lower to develop games that meet common quality criteria. There would be mostly simple TND-like games around then. Of course there are exceptions (like AEG's Turrican3), but generally speaking the games would be both fewer and poorer.
The other reason why PTV wants money is to compensate their running costs: Production, Shipping, Advertising, Shop, Homepage and last not least giving the developers some pocket money. As I know some of the figures I can say that most of the money goes to the developers which is an important appreciation for the work that made their games happen.
PTV also sees its mission to provide developers platform and services to market their products (soft- and hardware).
Besides that PTV always thought about ways to improve the situation, so they do the best they can to make the games attractive:
- low prices (compared to commercial games at former times
and the PC/Console market) especially if you take
inflation into account
- provide news about development status
- offer demo versions as a "try before you buy"-scheme
- quality control to prevent severe bugs and improve
playabilty
- different price tags depending on quality (free, low, mid, high)
With Metal Dust PTV tries a new way market their games, by providing a premium version which is indeed boxed.
The reason of PTV games usually being simply disks, plastic bag and manual is a matter of cost and time.
The point is:
Low quantities -> high costs
Printing a map on a tea towel costs large sums at these quantities.
And because of the low sales, PTV has to protect its products as good as it can. Every lost sale counts in large amounts. A few sales per month e.g. cover the costs of the site running.
About your idea of Shareware etc.
--------------------------------------------------
Of course this is an interesting model, but it certainly won't work, as the added value (again) is null. That's the reason why most shareware authors have to cripple their products to move the users to pay. I myself do use only few shareware applications.
A new IDEA
------------------
PTV should think about creating an opportunity to make donations though, as it would create a possibility for crack owners to have a "legal" version and support the developers.
It should be a little bit lower than the price for the shop product, as the production/shipping process is not needed for that.
|
| |
The Blue Ninja
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 4 |
And while I am at it (after reading the rest of all those postings):
The scene is not easily definable. Of course all people inside want to keep it as small, exquisite and elitary as possible which might be the reason why the restrict it to the demo and cracking scene.
The scene is more than that and it is for more than one decade already.
What about the graphics artists? What about the composers? What about the fake-labels? What about the party-people? What about the tool-authors?
All of them are part of "the scene", so why should game developers and their products not be part of the scene, too?
Does the free availability of productions set a limit here? What about those people that in former times (or other platforms still toaday) SOLD their cracks to others? Isn't that commercial too? The only difference is that the first have the right to, the others don't.
What is your criteria that defines "the scene"?
For me the scene are the people that care about and use our beloved machine in a semiprofessional way. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
BlueNinja: we are not discussing the definition of the scene here or business models for the commercial enterprise known as Protovision.
This thread was created to discuss:
1) CSDB Disclaimer: "Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."
If this is the case, how come external links (FTP sites) cannot be included for our releases, ALL our releases (cracks, whatever).
2) Why MacGyver/Protovision (with admin access) is allowed to remove the SCS&TRC version of ICE GUYS yet the version by Singular (with download link) still remains?
3) Why MacGyver/Protovision is allowed to remove and take ownership of other locked entries such as Hockeymania and Bombmania? Both are legitimate scene releases (located on a "SCENE" database).
4) Why MacGyver/Protovision is allowed to view other people's anonymous votes and goes snooping around asking people questions like "why did you vote this?".
5) Why MacGyver/Protovision is also accessing other FTP sites like c64.rulez.org and removing certain "releases" from there when that site has no affiliation with him?
6) MacGyver found these links and in some way he has the right to remove them because of his relationship to Protovision. Should he then be banned as admin as he doesn't know which hat to wear? (CSDB hat or PTV hat).
Keep to the topic!
|
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
just a quick offtopic one from my side (coz i think it DOES contribute to the discussion)
"Does the free availability of productions set a limit here? "
yes it does. its a key element infact.
"What about those people that in former times (or other platforms still toaday) SOLD their cracks to others? Isn't that commercial too? The only difference is that the first have the right to, the others don't."
those people are, and have always been considered "outsiders" by the real crackers and other sceners. nothing harms the scene as much as commercial piracy does, and most pirate groups agree to that even today and do NOT sell warez. usually those who sell teh hot warez have been, and still are, some third parties and not the cracking groups themselves.
|
| |
Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
in case anyone wants to download it:
ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/Scene/Old/i/Ice_Guys.Protovision+..
guaranteed better version then all the other ice guys version that ARE available for download on csdb.
anyway, hypocrits should not be allowed trusted status anywhere. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
The reason why the SCS&TRC version was removed from CSDB and the version by Singular allowed to stay is because:
<Mac_PTV> JC: Easy: Singular's version is an IDE64 fix. Protovision distributes and supports IDE64. |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Here's a final quote for everyone to enjoy:
<Mac_PTV> PTV hat es gar nicht nötig, sich für das gelaufene zu rechtfertigen, im Gegensatz zu den Crackern. Punkt.
Roughly translates to:
<Mac_PTV> PTV has no need to apologize for what happened, the crackers do. Period |
| |
Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
Thought I'd check the hypocrisy of protovision some more, so on their webserver, they are hosting a site called http://tld-crew.de/games.htm which has a SHITLOAD of copyrighted games from all sorts of companies, freely available for download.
I mean, how can a 'commercial company' whine about copyrighted material when they are offering cracked games themselves?
HYPOCRITS! |
| |
Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1927 |
Since many people repeat the same shit here over and over, I'd like to make this short:
What 90% of the people here apparently want is MacGyver's "trusted" status removed and to get informed whenever their contributions to the database are modified.
Also a more transparent user level view would be a matter in the long run I guess.
It is out of question that the admins and hosters of the project have the RIGHT to add and remove anything they want from the database and to keep the system running I'd do just the same - a note towards the contributor is a strict requirement here though.
All we want are clear statements to be able to handle the situation in a way the scene always used to handle things.
Simple as that.
Sidenote: MANY of the "arguments" here made me laugh indeed ... people *I* trust answer my questions e.g. :)
Btw, Metal Dust PREVIEW will be only available by P2P due to it's unbelievable long cracking intro.
Groups who want to participate on the FINAL release please pass their intro (INCL. all the samples, scrolltexts, credits and other specialties) as archive to the release team. Please do not exceed 15 megs per intro.
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC
|
| |
Stan
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 187 |
Oh boys... |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
This isn't Spankerz Heaven, you don't have to do meaningless cock avoider posts, Stan =) |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Hahaha.
Nicely worded Count0.
Some simple communication and common-sense would be nice. I hope Perff is reading. :) |
| |
fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
wow what a load of old crap here.. Now's a good time to suggest a "Buy a Demo" policy. Cause todays games are pretty crap and the only real awe inspiring thing left on the 64 is a demo. Such hard efforts should be rewarded.
Fade - I cracked, packed, trained & fixed yamum!
|
| |
Stan
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 187 |
After crawling through I don't know how many messages, just some quick remarks:
1) PTV is the copyright owner, so in legal terms they can do with their releases what they want. I assume from reading the posts that almost none really doubts that legal aspect.
2) Yet the big picture of the PTV policy irritates me a lot: If I remember right, the group or at least some core members were actively cracking/pirating in the past. Thus most of the moral arguments do not sound too convincing to me. For that reason, I do not understand the hostility towards the cracking scene expressed by Mac Gyver.
3) The "downvoting"- issue violates my idea of a transparent voting system, because Street Tuff (Moin Tuffi!) could assume that his votes are secretly hidden to non-admins. This violates some essential and crucial ideas of voting in democratically organized communities, guys. And to me it doesn't matter for whatever reason Street Tuff voted someone down. It is his right to do so. Just like others before, I do not feel comfortable with this - NOT AR ALL. YET: If you like, make all votes public, I would still vote the same. But it is fucking ridiculous to see that people check votes if I could assume it is hidden.
Have a good afternoon.
Stan Hitmen |
| |
Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Wow.
If copyright is wished ot be protected then I guess the admins want to protect themselves. Disclaimers don't always legally rpotect yourself. I know I'm now in a minority and have no friends now. It is obvious - this site is not a suitable medium for keeping records of crack scene releases.
This was much easier when his database was seen as a legal scene database and not for cracks etc.
Some people are very passionate which is nice to see.
Some people have odd ideas about copyright. Copyright does not mean commercial just your work is protected so people don't commercially use your work without your permission and much more.
Protovision is commercial. It sells the stuff. Motivations and costs don't matter. Profits are not a measure of commercialism - only a measure of success. Look at recent news AMD loses money on its memory devices. It can't cover the full costs but it is commercial.
See early point - with that I have no problem with Mac removing the link to the download but I do have issues with his abuse of power like checking down voting. Suck it in Mac - work harder on the thing you are down voted on if it is important to you.
Nice to see civility is still dead. |
| |
Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote: It is plain silly really. I agree with H.O's views completely. The scene started with cracking, in the beginning there was no such thing as a demo group or even a demo. There was cracking only, and it IS the basis of the scene. And it continues to be
a large part of the scene today.
TheBlueNinja: Obviously you know squat about cracking, and are biased against it in some way. So you should just keep your mouth shut on such subjects as you don't have any clue what your speaking of.
Mermaid: Are you whining again? Oh for pete sake... grow up yourself.
I love you too Fungus :-) |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Oh for crying outloud, this is the same discussion thats been going on the centuries - ex-crackers getting pissed off because they suddently turned legal and apparently by that also became keepers of the double-standard-grail...there is the copyright aspect, sure, now you keep it sacred, years ago you could give a toss...
Nice..
Grow up...wanna make money, find another machine - the fact alone that you whine over people pirating your games on the C64 for a reason I can only asume is financial is ridicolous in itself....was this 15-20 years ago I could understand your argument, but this is fucking 2005..
The discussion remain over the years, only the debaters change....sigh |
| |
Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1927 |
Holla,
nice to see that Kim didn't read anything here or tried to understand it.
The ongoing discussions that creeps into the ACTUAL topic - the reliability and credibility of csdb - are completely to DISMISS.
Concentrate - after 150 posts - on the solution, dammit.
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC |
| |
DCMP
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 59 |
I think the main question is if MacGyver is objective enough to be a "trusted user"/admin.
About downloading cracks:
Ofcourse I wasn't here in the cracking days but it seems
to me that if you make a good game, people *will* buy it because they enjoy playing it. Especially when you have a bond between eachotherlike the scene so you really have a bigger urge to reward a person for their effort ( unlike when downloading Splinter Cell)
Ofcoarse there are previews, but if people doubt their likeance towards a game, download the lot and like it, I am sure some people, who didn't want to buy it before, might change their minds and buy the nicely wrapped original. Just like people nowadays still spend lots of money on originals anyway..
Since other cracked versions can be obtained here, I don't think there should be made an exception for PTV especially being in the csdb as being sceners themselves. Therefor it is clear to me MacGyver is not objective enough to have more rights than others...
DCMP |
| |
White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
Quote: Holla,
nice to see that Kim didn't read anything here or tried to understand it.
The ongoing discussions that creeps into the ACTUAL topic - the reliability and credibility of csdb - are completely to DISMISS.
Concentrate - after 150 posts - on the solution, dammit.
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC
Solution? Simple.
CSDb simply needs to post & follow requests from copyright holders to remove stuff. If there's no actual request, nothing gets removed. PTV should follow that policy and say "no links to our game", "only mods of our game with added benefits can be allowed", etc, instead of this "picking favorites subjectively as they see them" crap. Everybody should be able to see PTV's request logged somewhere (as well as letters from other software companies that request CSDb to remove something), so they can read exactly what PTV requested that CSDb do, not just have PTV go and fiddle around with CSDb directly because MacGyver happens to have admin access as well.
A lot of people spent a lot of time creating this database, and did it under the understanding and trust that people aren't just going to monkey around with the data for personal reasons. If they can see what was requested by the legal owners, and know that CSDb is following that request, then things are in line and understandable. If they see entries that they created all of a sudden deleted or changed by somebody who doesn't like it (the definition of censorship), of course they'll be up in arms.
If you put your own work on a public resource, it's 100% BS to alter or use admin privileges on that public resource to cater to your own "baby" on there. This applies to snooping at anonymous votes. This is a matter of common ethics and being able to responsibly handle something that holds public opinion (which can legitimately be positive or negative towards you personally), and I don't think is something that rules can cover. Whoever is in charge needs to be able to maintain the system for the sake of the system, not for the little subset of content that applies to them. |
| |
Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
I hope Perff reads White Flame's post.
Very well put, dude.
Burglar/SCS*TRC |
| |
CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
C64 USERS AGAINST COPYRIGHT!! ;)
Hi guys! Sorry, i haven't read this till now. Goddamn, you guys have been busy!
I'm also annoyed by the fact that these links has been removed.
(as i allways am when someone wants something removed!)
But first...
About us making a special case out of protovision games by disallowing their games and allowing all other games: If a software company like f.e. UBI-soft or CodeMasters (or whatever) told us to remove some links in CDSb, we would definately have to do it. Or else we would risk getting our asses sued. But thankfully we haven't got any (lame) requests like that. I'm just saying this to show there is no special treatment of protovision - we would remove download-links from other companies if they ordered us to.
There is also no doubt that to protect ourselves (much in the same manner scene.org has to protect itself from fucked up legal proceedings at the moment), we have to remove download-links if the copyright-holder of the release asks us to do it. This is not just some theoritical nonsense that's totally unlikely to happen to a C64-site - it has infact happened to some C64-sites not long ago.
(NOTE: we don't have to remove the important information, just the download-link - it's not illegal to have information about cracks, so it's not as bad as it sounds. Please rejoice. NOW!!)
These 2 points should be clear to all, i hope.
Now that this has been said...
Sorry, i've only read this tread quickly. Good (and bad) arguments from both sides. As far as i've understood this is the problem:
PROBLEM: We have deleted some download-links to protovision stuff and MacGyver is a member of protovision and a CSDb-trusteduser at the same time.
This means that he can remove download-links from cracks of his own companys games. Is this fair?
YES:
- Protovision is a major software-house and would loose profit on it (but they don't care about profit.. Hmm..)
- Protovision could sue us if they wanted. (tho, in reality they probably won't do that)
- We wouldn't want to destroy one of the last major commercial software coorporations on the C64. It's nice to have atleast one softwarehouse still alive on the on the C64, and we shouldn't ruin it for them.
NO:
- This is a scene database, and "data wants to be free". Censorship of C64-stuff sucks.
- The scene and software-houses are enemies, so we shouldn't care about their wishes.
- Protovision guys have been crackers themselves.
- An admin/trusteduser should weigh the scene higher than a commercial firm.
BUT THE MAIN PROBLEM IS:
MacGyver is trusted-user of the *scene* database, and at the same time he weights the protovision-firms interests higher than the scene. This is a conflict, when the scene and protovision has got contradicting interests.
Is this correctly understood? It's a problem ONLY because MacGyver is a trusted user?
If he was not a trusted user, and told perff to remove the links, and perff did that, there would be no problem?
We will try to handle this in a civilized way, by talking to protovision about it and try to figure something out. It is a shame if CSDb has to be censored like this.
As i think many of you guys are, i'm kind of split into 2 camps - i don't want C64-stuff to be censored, and i don't want protovision to stop doing what they're doing.
Then ofcause there is the misuse of the voting system.. That he can see the votes is ok, but that he acts on the votes for himself is not ok!
What is going to happen to MacGyvers status as "trusted user" here on CSDb, will have to be discussed aswell. |
| |
MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
Just some side facts for those who didn't know:
Up to now I submitted over 1.300 entries to this very database, making me overall submitter No. 3, and Non-NoName-submitter No. 1. I also suggested many many features for CSDb which you happily use today.
So stop this "A lot of people put a lot of effort in building this database" crap cause you don't know what you're takin' 'bout. |
| |
Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
@MacGuyver: (most of) your actions deserve respect!
Don´t let your words destroy it all!! |
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Just some side facts for those who didn't know:
Up to now I submitted over 1.300 entries to this very database, making me overall submitter No. 3, and Non-NoName-submitter No. 1. I also suggested many many features for CSDb which you happily use today.
So stop this "A lot of people put a lot of effort in building this database" crap cause you don't know what you're takin' 'bout.
<speechless>
Oh no wait, I can't be speechless, as I'm the #1 poster here on this forum, which gives me the right to get medieval on your ass.
Now, I can understand you trying to 'protect' Protovision, I even respect you for it, but why don't you at least apologize for abusing your power, especially considering the anonymous voting situation, instead of transforming yourself into the most hated scener of this century?
As for your "alpha male" talk, what would happen if people really took offence to your words, said "screw it" and not only stopped submitting new data, but also removed the data they already submitted in the past?
CSDB is a good thing, a very good thing, and the NoName dudes will forever be thanked for it, but it's nothing without its users, and you're just one of them.
If you really feel different just say so, and I will be the first one to remove all the stuff I maintain, starting with the Focus demos, and make sure it doesn't get entered again. I also will mobilize other people to do the same.
Remember: you can't beat the scene, it's bigger than all of us. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CyberBrain: Thanks for taking the time to give some civil conversation. Hopefully with your constructive input we will find an outcome that is satisfactory for all parties involved. In regards to changes made. I agree with White Flame, there should be a section which shows the correspondance of PTV and CSDB. Not just MacGyver running around changing things (including access private folders on FTP sites!). It should be NoName staff ONLY who do these type of changes. MacGyver is not _neutral_ in this matter and it is only common sense that his access be modified so he cannot do this in the future (as No Name can do it).
It is a real state of affair when MacGyver deleted ICE GUYS version by SUCCESS&TRC yet left the full game download from SINGULAR still available. BOTH entries could have co-existed. This once more shows he is not _neutral_ and should have his access to admin here modified. No doubt he has done some work here (like everyone has), but we need a common sense approach to this and neutral parties involved. White Flame's idea of showing the requests from individuals requesting download links is a good one.
Regarding TRANSPARENT votes. They should not be anonymous. We should be able to see who does it. STILL, this doesn't justify MacGyver abusing his "trusted priviledges". For myself, I voted him only one point for Public Relations because of the actions taken by him modifying people's entries and not showing normal courtesy and contacting the entry owners to advise them of the needed modification. In my opinion this is very poor PR, maybe MacGyver will learn from this.
|
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
"Is this correctly understood? It's a problem ONLY because MacGyver is a trusted user?
If he was not a trusted user, and told perff to remove the links, and perff did that, there would be no problem?"
thats pretty much the point. the only way to get back your credibility is to 1) put up some more precise rulez on what should be here and what not and if or when something will get removed or not and 2) find someone else to do the "trusted user" job, the current one appearently isnt trusted at all.
|
| |
Hoild
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 29 |
So cynical.. this whole discussion turned into an indignity on the group of people trying to keep another c-64 tradition alive - classic videogames.
Tracing a supposed-to-be anonymous vote is unethical.
-There might be some good intent behind it, though - MacGyver contacted those downvoting him, and inquired about their reasons. Perhaps to improve, by listening to their feedback - only he could tell His reasons, but would he, surrounded by this extreme ragging?
Pretty early, though, discussion detoriated into Crackerz ("=real scene", "us") Vs. PTV ("commercial stuff", "them").
And regardless to the fact, the number of people directly or indirectly affected by c-64 Sw 'piracy' measures but a few hundred, perhaps one or two thousand. And of the most involved, there are but a handful, who are mostly knowing each other, even IRL.
Are you people pissed about each other?
-Do you want to piss everyone else?
Milo, why did you trace the vote without asking?
All the "crackerz" -- why do you want to piss us, hobby game developers? Don't you see, we are INSULTED by working on a non-profit game for years, just to have you "cracktro"-ing and "First Releasing" it under your name?
And even then, we are only taking the insult at all because we've been in contact with you for so long, and what you do does matter for us?!
-How about expanding this "us" for all of us?
Just a few more post by certain VERY involved people would allow for solving this perfidy.. some admitting of faults.. granting some forgiveness.. settling solid rules for the future of CSDb...
But then, this post will be fuel for further accusations, indeed I am writing this as a first poster (a "sin") and someone who partnered with PROTOVISION, who had his game published by them. I am, obviously, uber-subjective on this topic. Also, siding with PTV, I must be or will be yet-another-relative of MacGyver.
May my irony reveal your cynicism,
Hoild of UNC
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Hoild:
Unfortunately you are missing the point here.
"MacGyver contacted those downvoting him, and inquired about their reasons. Perhaps to improve, by listening to their feedback - only he could tell His reasons, but would he, surrounded by this extreme ragging?"
There is no excuse for this, it is a blatant misuse of administration control and should not be allowed! He doesn't need to offer any excuses as none would be accepted.
"All the "crackerz" -- why do you want to piss us, hobby game developers?"
Again, do we have to discuss the philosophy of cracking? This is an age-old topic that has been discussed many times before. If you haven't learnt about it by now I suggest you do some more reading about it. It is no personal attack at developing groups, it is more a group respects the game at some level and honours it in the tradition that they are part of (the cracking scene). It doesn't harm the sales of the game in 2005, serious people will still purchase the game (like myself) regardless if there is a crack. Anyway, this has been discussed to death and your covering very old ground. Please get back to the original point here.
"-How about expanding this "us" for all of us?"
We want to expand, but MacGyver only wants what he wants with the PTV games, as I've said before, surely ORIGINALS, IDE-fixes AND cracks can co-exist in this database.
Again, ICE GUYS = he deleted the SCS&TRC crack but left the Singular version online (IDE-fix). They should co-exist!!
|
| |
Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I'm glad this discussion has come to a rather reasonable level now, in opposition to the blind witchhunting it started out on. Let me add my few cents, now that I have taken off my flamesuit:
I know MacGyver for quite a long time now, even got to know him personally. He's a damn nice guy and an everbusy squirrel behind the curtains. Not only here on CSDb, but he also pointed out a lot of shortcomings in the HVSC or on the Demodungeon.
But as much as I like and respect you, Milo, you've put your foot in it here. Some honest words from you couldn't hurt to relax this miserable situation. |
| |
Trash
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
The downvoting problem and users who abuse their rights (as superusers) is a simple one to solve for the staff, just remove the possibility to see secret votes on the superuser in question...
The other problem is a bit harder to solve, but removing the links shouldn't be a problem for anyone (I guess) but removing the entire entry is just plain stupid, the same on user-level, removing real name, email, date of birth and so on shouldn't be a problem but removing the entire entry will do nothing more than cripple the real facts of the scene and it's complex structure, imagine a CSDB without trivia such as Pernod and Jackasser are brothers or that Hz had members as Sir Gawain and Rush... |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Nope Count0 I willfully admit I got bored out of my mind and stopped reading |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Crossfire: of course you would. My retired grandfather finds most things boring also. :)
|
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Ha!....is all I can say before going back to my rocking chair ;-)....err, David - I believe you and I are about the same age, aren't we? |
| |
macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 254 |
@xfire: as you already know, age is all about attitude and naivety. heck, last time i checked david was younger than me. :)
*child prodigy* |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Yes. I'm still finishing school and coming home to the C64 with no worries and heaps of fun!!! Damn, time to go to newsagent and get the latest Commodorezine with cover tape!
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
I said I won't be posting here, but I think I should.
I lost c64.sk maintainer. One who did most of the work at c64.sk. This database lost maintainer. Dmagic has minus 1 member, who instead of making himself -ex made himself erased which is weird. Also MacGyver (?) has unlocked his entry, so children can play with it. I wouldn't reccomend it though.
Back to topic. I can see that some points are justified. Either both Ice Guys cracks should be removed. Or TRC+SCS should have 1997 crack in database together with Singular. At least that would look okay to most of the sceners. In my view, there is visible and fruitful cooperation between Soci/Singular and PTV so this is not just crack, but more a patch. But anyway, Mac should have discussed his actions with either the creators of the entries, or with Perff. I'm sure their reactions wouldn't be positive, but at least they wouldn't have this argument in their hands.
As far as the rest is concerned, I preffer authors and I think their demands should be respected. So if they don't want to have links to cracks of the games, created by them, in this database, don't add them. Spread the releases other way. (I don't mean c64.sk ;-)
Arguments about cracking past and support of cracked games are just silly, so I won't go deeper into that problematic. Throwing stones became very popular in this scene, it seem.
So here we are, with a precedent of crackers publicly demanding their rights. In the end I don't see a plain winner of this case, only the expenses. Just another example of scene eating it's own tail. I can't do anything about it, just try to respect few respectable persons, even when I disagree with them in this case, laugh at few - for various reasons.., and be disguested by one.
case closed (at least for me)
Roman |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Hmmm a bit melodramatic of him to quit all these things. The simple requests here was that when it comes to something he should of adjusted the way he did them (or discontinued in the case of reading anonymous votes). No need for him to be a whinging little wanker and pack his bags and go home. I'm sure loads of people appreciate things he does. He should take the critic on the chin and move on. |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: Hmmm a bit melodramatic of him to quit all these things. The simple requests here was that when it comes to something he should of adjusted the way he did them (or discontinued in the case of reading anonymous votes). No need for him to be a whinging little wanker and pack his bags and go home. I'm sure loads of people appreciate things he does. He should take the critic on the chin and move on.
Jazzcat, all the melodrama (if you see it this way) is caused by me because I'm author of this post. Insults won't make your argument stronger, but as you wish. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CreaMD: basically if he fell off his horse he should just get back up on it again. Big deal.
|
| |
Westbam
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 192 |
Quote: Here's the thing we all should give a thought...
The internet is not a geek thing anymore, everybody and his grandma surfs the web or googles around. That includes company employees and lawyers.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have all links to cracks removed than have someone who still owns the right to this or that game discover that there's some quick money to make and sue the Noname guys just because he legally can.
Just a week or so ago, a german publishing company lost the case where they were sued for 500,000 Euro in damages by the music industry because they published an article about a DVD copying program (programs that circumvent copy protections are considered illegal in Germany) and supplied a link to the vendor's webpage. ( http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/58249 )
In a world where things like that happen, I'd rather be on the safe side, even if it means not to list URLs to cracks of games that most of the time aren't worth the trouble to download them anyways.
Haven´t had the time to drop by on a regular basis lately so I just ran into your nonsense post right now. As you refer on this matter to the article written by Heise Verlag (Heise News)I assume you are a german citizen. I eagerly presume you´d go back and read the article concerning this matter again. This might enligten you (finally)...
Heise Verlag has never been sued for 500000.- on this matter. In case you simply still don´t understand what this was all about you should go and read this thread:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=774..
to understand the matter. I guess this thread was created because there seem to be more blind kids like you that cannot read...
However, argueing about copyright protections and their legal terms is propably the most stupid topic I have ever seen or read on a board system build for pirates...
I remember Walter Konrad once trying to treaten pirates not to crack his Game On / Magic Disk crap... The "marvellous" (yeah right) Co-Founder of WOD/711 trying to tread pirates, now that makes sense. Same situation on this Protovision topic... |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Westbam: nice to see some more truth revealed!
Yes, this thread was created to try and make some points across to some ignorant kids, but unfortunately they seem more blind than initially thought.
One of the reasons why I'm publishing a new magazine (RECOLLECTION) is because of blind fools who have a misconception on what the scene is about. Hopefully it will save them, whereas this thread hasn't.
|
| |
Mason
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 461 |
Quote: Haven´t had the time to drop by on a regular basis lately so I just ran into your nonsense post right now. As you refer on this matter to the article written by Heise Verlag (Heise News)I assume you are a german citizen. I eagerly presume you´d go back and read the article concerning this matter again. This might enligten you (finally)...
Heise Verlag has never been sued for 500000.- on this matter. In case you simply still don´t understand what this was all about you should go and read this thread:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=774..
to understand the matter. I guess this thread was created because there seem to be more blind kids like you that cannot read...
However, argueing about copyright protections and their legal terms is propably the most stupid topic I have ever seen or read on a board system build for pirates...
I remember Walter Konrad once trying to treaten pirates not to crack his Game On / Magic Disk crap... The "marvellous" (yeah right) Co-Founder of WOD/711 trying to tread pirates, now that makes sense. Same situation on this Protovision topic...
hah I remember the story about Game On / Magic Disk.
Its not the only situations we have seen with Protovision and Magic Disk/Game On, but I guess most people took it more like a task by doing funny protections. Timex is a good example. For some it was easy for others it was so hard it kept away most crackers.
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: Westbam: nice to see some more truth revealed!
Yes, this thread was created to try and make some points across to some ignorant kids, but unfortunately they seem more blind than initially thought.
One of the reasons why I'm publishing a new magazine (RECOLLECTION) is because of blind fools who have a misconception on what the scene is about. Hopefully it will save them, whereas this thread hasn't.
Save? Is that all about "nostalgia and reccolections". How about evolution and future? |
| |
Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Westbam (for once) is right - my apologies. Heise wasn't sued for 500,000, that was a sum the judge came up with somehow.
However, it doesn't change the fact that publishing a link is what got them in trouble.
That being said... David, I think you misunderstood the "blind kids" part of Westbam's post. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Seven: nah, my use of blind was not in reference to Westbam's post. More of a shot at some of the crap I hear from different people. It is amazing when you read some people's perception of the scene, the record needs to be set right. |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Quote: Save? Is that all about "nostalgia and reccolections". How about evolution and future?
Evolution? Future? C64? Ehrm, come on, you cannot be serious.. If you want evolution and future you should seek other machinery, the only sensible reason for being active on C64 must be for nostalgic reasons... |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: Evolution? Future? C64? Ehrm, come on, you cannot be serious.. If you want evolution and future you should seek other machinery, the only sensible reason for being active on C64 must be for nostalgic reasons...
Maybe you have 3 groups after your handle for nostalgic reasons. You maybe visit these forums for nostalgic reasons. But this site wasn't made for nostalgic reasons. And although I disagree with some points, I believe Jazzcat's project won't be made for nostalgic reasons.
Retro gamers, remixers, most of c.s.c. newsgroups users and "power" users, lemon64.com forum users and visitors, game remakers and maybe even major party organisers who still keep C64 compos, can be considered nostalgiac, but the fact that those people are in majority doesn't automatically mean that driving forces of active and creative sceners belong to the same cathegory.
I of course use new technologies in my everyday life, but if I feel like it, I still enjoy composing on C64, watch demos, and even play games once in a very long while. And of course people around this machine are (ahem) cool. |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Quote: Maybe you have 3 groups after your handle for nostalgic reasons. You maybe visit these forums for nostalgic reasons. But this site wasn't made for nostalgic reasons. And although I disagree with some points, I believe Jazzcat's project won't be made for nostalgic reasons.
Retro gamers, remixers, most of c.s.c. newsgroups users and "power" users, lemon64.com forum users and visitors, game remakers and maybe even major party organisers who still keep C64 compos, can be considered nostalgiac, but the fact that those people are in majority doesn't automatically mean that driving forces of active and creative sceners belong to the same cathegory.
I of course use new technologies in my everyday life, but if I feel like it, I still enjoy composing on C64, watch demos, and even play games once in a very long while. And of course people around this machine are (ahem) cool.
Right, CreaMD - what is your point exactly? It must be important since you also mail me your response?....all you do is apparently disagreeing with me but the points you put out are the same I did...if you don't have anything to say, then don't feel obligated, ok?
Not that I really care, honestly. I'm here because I think it's fun and for purely nostalgic reasons. I have three groups in my handle cause those are some of my ex-groups, do you see me calling myself active under any of them, maybe? In fact, if you had bothered keeping up to date you would know that I've said a thousand times that I wasn't going to be active, eventhough a lot of people tried to get me started again, but I fail to see the reason when I have so many others things to do these days, workwise, private life, etc. etc. |
| |
Duke
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 20 |
I like to think that the c64 has a great role to play in today's technological wonder world. To me, the c64 is a response to all the brand new technology that comes crashing through our doors each and every day. Sure, technology helps us in life, and sure a lot of it brings us good fun ... but the c64 is about so much more than that. It never changes!
Sure, you can buy the Retro Replay cartridge and feel as if you have upgraded the c64, but in reality it's still the same, and the demos and games are still subject to the same limitations as they were 20 years ago. THAT is what is unique about the c64. That, and of course the fact that we all grew up with it. How can you just ditch something that was such a big part of your youth? Think of all the memories we all share from this wonderful computer and scene. When I watch a demo or play a c64 game, it's like taking a sip of the best damn beer this world has to offer. Sure, champaigne is probably more refined, and wine and brandy more sophisticated, but ... erhm.. sorry, I just started a rant here.. Hope the point got through, though ;) |
| |
Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
Quote: Evolution? Future? C64? Ehrm, come on, you cannot be serious.. If you want evolution and future you should seek other machinery, the only sensible reason for being active on C64 must be for nostalgic reasons...
Do we have to go through another thread with this shit? Someone coming from nowhere, dusting off their brain, and posting that the "scene is dead" or that the only "reasonable reason" to be active is nostalgia? Take your judgments and shove them up your ass.
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: Right, CreaMD - what is your point exactly? It must be important since you also mail me your response?....all you do is apparently disagreeing with me but the points you put out are the same I did...if you don't have anything to say, then don't feel obligated, ok?
Not that I really care, honestly. I'm here because I think it's fun and for purely nostalgic reasons. I have three groups in my handle cause those are some of my ex-groups, do you see me calling myself active under any of them, maybe? In fact, if you had bothered keeping up to date you would know that I've said a thousand times that I wasn't going to be active, eventhough a lot of people tried to get me started again, but I fail to see the reason when I have so many others things to do these days, workwise, private life, etc. etc.
Seems like you didn't read my post very carefully. I actually presented the arguments that active (creative) sceners aren't nostalgiacs. Everybody has his individual motivations and in my or Jazzcat's case I'm quite sure that it's not nostalgia. Concerning the fact that we are both trying to positively influence the scene (our own way ;-).
As far as the rest of your message is concerned, telling me that you don't care is not argument helping you to persuade me about your knowledge about todays scene. But that's situation we already have been months ago.. and IMO we don't need to go there again. I also don't have so much time these days, workwise, private life, and even etc. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Bah.
The scene is what you make it to be.
For me I doing things for the new generation as well as for nostalgic reasons, the result is I get some enjoyment out of it. No doubt the "reason" differs for others. But who are we to judge what other people are here for?
Let "warez" do the talking.
|
| |
Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote: Evolution? Future? C64? Ehrm, come on, you cannot be serious.. If you want evolution and future you should seek other machinery, the only sensible reason for being active on C64 must be for nostalgic reasons...
I guess I must be a newcomer to the C64 scene for nostalgic reasons, then. Or, perhaps, I really am not sensible. :-P |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Quote: Do we have to go through another thread with this shit? Someone coming from nowhere, dusting off their brain, and posting that the "scene is dead" or that the only "reasonable reason" to be active is nostalgia? Take your judgments and shove them up your ass.
What a disappointing post from you Moloch, I truly expected more from you.. "Coming out of nowhere" you say? Hmm, yes - sure, I'm a newcomer...funny though, could have sworn I was active for the C64 scene for well about 14 years of my past, but hell, maybe I was just drunk? If you had bothered to take your head out of your ass you would see I NEVER said the scene was dead - so stop being so biased...it's truly disappointing, dude!
CreaMD, whatever you say, dude. I can't be bothered to enter another discussion with you since you obviously already think you know all there is to know. The fact alone that you care so much what an ex-scener think anyway is pretty interesting. Why does that mean so much to you? I mean, I'm not active, so what does it matter? Perhaps you're just trying to convince yourself when it comes down to it?
Furthermore I never claimed to know anything about the new scene!! Why should I when I'm not apart of it? I'm not passing judgments but it seems you guys have been seing to many other people passing judgments so now anyone who just SEEMS remotely "against" the new scene is an enemy? Honestly, stop whining...how many times have I said I applaud the efforts of the 2005-C64 scene? MANY! Although they seem to go by quite unheard, but as soon as something that can be misinterpreted in any way is written, you are ready for a fight? Honestly, GROW UP!
But you do not keep the scene alive for nostalgic reason, explain why to me? Fame? - Get real! Fun? I can understand that - but for the old sceners there would be no fun if it was not nostalgicly related - that's what makes it fun, because you have a HISTORY with the machine.. What is so hard to understand about that? |
| |
Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
Excellent.
"Coming out of nowhere" as in a greasy old shit rag returning and spouting crap he doesn't know about or making absurd judgments about others and their hobby.
Please read my comments again... I never said that you claimed the scene was dead, but others have recently here on CSDb. If you had kept up you'd know this.
It's quite obvious from your postings that you seem to misunderstand or somehow dream up different meanings for what people write.
|
| |
Duke
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 20 |
You know, I had a thought the other day. I remember 10 years ago people said the scene was dead. They've been saying it pretty well daily ever since. It would be fun to put together a list of released demos, games, cracks, compilations of music, graphics and such, all between 1995 till now, and then show it to whoever doubts whether there still is a pulse to the c64.
Regarding Crossfire, I think people tend to misunderstand him, too. I know Crossfire REALLY well, and he is as much as scener as anybody else I know. He worked his heart out for The Pulse back in the mid 90's, produced some 20+ issues with me, and often without deserved credits. A lot of people worked of The Pulse, but no one but more work into it than him and me. It was our production! Now if that isn't scene spirit I don't know what is. There isn't anything more scene friendly than the c64 magazines. So while there might be disagreements about a lot of things, I do think Crossfire deserves a lot of respect for putting together one of the best mags ever in the scene. The charts during the time spells the truth! |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Imagine you are walking down the street seeing beautiful sexy woman. Long legs, high heels, and tight (excuse moi) ass in skirt just so short that it hides her pants. Beatiful hair (of your favourite colour, length and shape).. etc. etc. you know the idea.. you are walking faster than her, so in fem moments she is behind you, so if you look behind (carefuly) you can see her face. Sometimes it happens that it's a disappointing experience. And you maybe think, only if I haven't looked behind.. the illusion would stay perfect, forever. And that's how it is with some ex-sceners. Not many of them. I met only few in my life. They would maybe maintain their well deserved respect and appreciaton forever, only if they didn't "open their mouth"...
Of course, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't keep my mouth closed in some situations. |
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Imagine you are walking down the street seeing beautiful sexy woman. Long legs, high heels, and tight (excuse moi) ass in skirt just so short that it hides her pants. Beatiful hair (of your favourite colour, length and shape).. etc. etc. you know the idea.. you are walking faster than her, so in fem moments she is behind you, so if you look behind (carefuly) you can see her face. Sometimes it happens that it's a disappointing experience. And you maybe think, only if I haven't looked behind.. the illusion would stay perfect, forever. And that's how it is with some ex-sceners. Not many of them. I met only few in my life. They would maybe maintain their well deserved respect and appreciaton forever, only if they didn't "open their mouth"...
Of course, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't keep my mouth closed in some situations.
Does this mean that Crossfire looks like a sexy girl with long legs in a tight skirt from the back? No wonder that Duke liked working with him so much :)
Anyway, to answer a question: the reason *I* still code on the c64 (well, try to) is not because of nostalga, or for fame, but just because I think there's still so much more that can be done on this machine, and I'm not talking effects here ofcourse (as if anybody really would expect that from me). |
| |
macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 254 |
man. high heels are so fucking unsexy.
needed to post this. |
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: man. high heels are so fucking unsexy.
needed to post this.
Appearantly they are on Crossfire.
Or should that be Crossdressers?
Man, I'm confused. And I blame Duke .. |
| |
Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Totally agree with TDJ on this one!
Why do people still run marathons?
Not to get somewhere,but to actually DO IT!
I think the same applies here.
It remains a challenge and as Tsunami has shown,there is enough room for improvement.
"The lemon has been squeezed,but there is plenty of juice left!" |
| |
macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 254 |
life is too short not to do stuff one enjoys a lot. i dig doing stuff for the scene and i like what i get back. the creative output is massive and it is amazing to say the least to be part of it.
trying to find other factors of why to do stuff for the scene is stupid. live that life of yours. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CreaMD: You get the talk 'shit of the year' award from me. Well done. |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Quote: Appearantly they are on Crossfire.
Or should that be Crossdressers?
Man, I'm confused. And I blame Duke ..
You were BORN confused ;-) |
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: You were BORN confused ;-)
Duke is my father?
Could have sworn he is younger then me. Now I'm REALLY confused .. |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: CreaMD: You get the talk 'shit of the year' award from me. Well done.
For finally finding a well fitting parallel...
|
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CreaMD: doesn't justify anything. Your ignorant and disrespectful (and seem to get on most people's nerves).
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: CreaMD: doesn't justify anything. Your ignorant and disrespectful (and seem to get on most people's nerves).
Respect is not a fixed thing. Either it stays or it disappears. You are generalising, but that's not the first time you have done it in my case. And, you can call me ignorant or anything else, but I won't agree with you over the cracking of 2000+ made games. It's 2005. it's different situation than 15 years ago. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CreaMD: I'm not just speaking about games. Anyway, go write a webpage or something. |
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote:
And that's how it is with some ex-sceners. Not many of them. I met only few in my life. They would maybe maintain their well deserved respect and appreciaton forever, only if they didn't "open their mouth"...
thats an interesting view on the scene, that respect and apprecation is based on what you say and not what you do/have done. Seems like you have the same problem as macgyver, with his talk about people "showing their real faces"
I think its fully possible to appreciate a persons efforts on the scene, even if he has a different opinion on some subject, or just happens to be a jerk in general.
But thats just me..
|
| |
Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
Turnips taste good with cheese, as long as you dont add turnips or cheese.
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: Quote:
And that's how it is with some ex-sceners. Not many of them. I met only few in my life. They would maybe maintain their well deserved respect and appreciaton forever, only if they didn't "open their mouth"...
thats an interesting view on the scene, that respect and apprecation is based on what you say and not what you do/have done. Seems like you have the same problem as macgyver, with his talk about people "showing their real faces"
I think its fully possible to appreciate a persons efforts on the scene, even if he has a different opinion on some subject, or just happens to be a jerk in general.
But thats just me..
Exactly it's fully possible to appreaciate persons efforts on the scene even when he has different opinions on some subjects or happens to be a jerk in general. T
The argue is about different opinions and behaviour. We don't discuss Crossfire's past releases here. If we did I wouldn't have a single word against them. Even before we met in CSDB I recognised him as the one of the most important crackers of the "post commercial" C64 era and considered all that recracking affair around him unimportant. Actually I still think he did awesome stuff in past. |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CreaMD: I guess in your case it is easy to forget your past then.
|
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Jazzcat I don't have any problem with that. It's in the eye of beholder... |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Quote: CreaMD: doesn't justify anything. Your ignorant and disrespectful (and seem to get on most people's nerves).
Kids are like that these days - funny how that compares to real life really, teenagers also disrespect their parents, totally forgetting that they wouldn't be around if it wasn't for their parents.. Ofcourse, luckily, most of them grow a brain as they get older..
Just a thought...
But honestly CreaMD, calling someone a jerk just because he has other views on things than yourself? Come on.. |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
Quote: Kids are like that these days - funny how that compares to real life really, teenagers also disrespect their parents, totally forgetting that they wouldn't be around if it wasn't for their parents.. Ofcourse, luckily, most of them grow a brain as they get older..
Just a thought...
But honestly CreaMD, calling someone a jerk just because he has other views on things than yourself? Come on..
Sorry I forgot to put that quote of Hollowman's into the brackets. Although I must admit that I probably found the end of that sentence devilishly satisfactory. I'm really sorry for that. And you are right, children should respect their parents. Kids should respect elderly. And even apprentices their techers (maybe) ;-). I sometimes have argue with my mother but with the rest of my relatives it's quite okay. Unfrotunately (?), we aren't in any of those relationships. |
| |
Earthshaker
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 118 |
Quote: Kids are like that these days - funny how that compares to real life really, teenagers also disrespect their parents, totally forgetting that they wouldn't be around if it wasn't for their parents.. Ofcourse, luckily, most of them grow a brain as they get older..
Just a thought...
But honestly CreaMD, calling someone a jerk just because he has other views on things than yourself? Come on..
Now you are really becoming an old man.
Should i get you walking stick? ;) |
| |
Westbam
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 192 |
The fact this topic came up because of a "Commodore C64 Software Company" (in 2005 yeah right) makes the whole topic even more ridiculous in my eyes. I mean, what are they supposed to do? Drag you to court? Because of a piece of Commodore software? Agreed, they might loose, let´s say 100.-, but which judge (even in the united states) would ever care about this ( -:> STREiTWERT <:- (for you Seven; of course I was right, as ALWAYS, apart form the fact that comparing this to the situation concerning the SlySoft software is a complete missing link..))???
Censoring a pirated ware on a (at least) semi-pirate scene does not make sense whatsoever. Although I do respect the system owner´s decision to do this, it simply does not make much sense from my point of view... |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Oh Earthshaker, I'm an old geezer, no point in denying it ;-) |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Crossfire: yes, unfortunate children are like this but I guess it is part of their "growing up cycle". Its amazing when I turn on the C64 though, these kiddies cease to exist, it's only when I get behind the PC that their annoyance is evident. |
| |
Duke
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 20 |
You know you're getting old when you start saying, "I don't like the look of those kids," or "TDJ is my 30+ year old son". That's why I stay in my protective house all day with my protective glasses and gloves, and never venture outside, hoping TDJ will call me on Sunday's. |
| |
CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053 |
If we compared birthday dates, it seems like there is a very thin line between childhood and senility. ;-) |
| |
Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
Oh no, not a contest of who is the oldest? I believe most of us need canes and in a few years diapers...
muhahaha
Damn kids.
|
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Yeah, yesterday when I went to the grocery store, those darn hippetihop kids kicked my cain away from under me....those darn kids and their loud music..
*LOL* |
| |
Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Crossfire: as long as they thought it was cool for kicking your cane away from you. Then all is well. We can't have them thinking they're in the wrong or anything absurd like that. ;) |
| |
Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Quote: Crossfire: as long as they thought it was cool for kicking your cane away from you. Then all is well. We can't have them thinking they're in the wrong or anything absurd like that. ;)
Yeah, they also made my hemoroids act up again...darn kids.. |
| |
Earthshaker
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 118 |
Quote: Yeah, they also made my hemoroids act up again...darn kids..
He said from his rocking chair... |
