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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
About the origins of c64 demoscene
It almost feels to me that C64 demoscene is somewhat younger than the Amiga demoscene. Would that be (historically) correct thing to say? Not by much, but kinda couple of years.
Many of the screens and effects often seen on C64 seem to have done earlier on the Amiga. (like 1986 vs. 1988) - This doesn't surprise me, since Copper makes raster programming so much more pleasant. But C64 setup was still a pretty usable in late 1980s, and much cheaper too, so I wonder if the C64 demoscene did start by trying to imitate stuff seen on Amiga? I mean just a random example of a 1986 Amiga intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg96m76o7JA |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
No, first Demos appeared in 1983: Piccolo Mouso
Quite the contrary is true however: a lot of early Amiga stuff looks like earlier C64 stuff with more colors. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
You can do an advanced search on CSDb to find c64 demos from 83-85, especially one-file-demos. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Just to be complete: of course later in the game people also copied effects that first appeared on the Amiga (or PC even) |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Does Piccolo Mouso even count as a demoscene release? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
That raises the question of "what is a demoscene release". Which you likely wont get a definitive answer for, ever. (And there were demos before there was a demoscene, obviously) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quoting mankeli I mean just a random example of a 1986 Amiga intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg96m76o7JA
I'm not sure that's from 1986. According to the wise people at Pouet it´s from July 1987. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
The demo scene emanates from the cracking scene, and the crack intros, which is well known, with early examples on the Apple II. The C64 scene were prominent early on, though. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting hedningThe demo scene emanates from the cracking scene This is debateable, as it seems to imply that the demo scene spawned off from an existing fully-formed cracking scene.
What's more likely, in my book, however, is that there was no notion of two (or more) distinct scenes in the early days.
It was all just "the scene", with different people enthusiastic about home computing in general, dabbling in different domains and groups, with some "discipline overlap".
Only when things distinctly diversified in later years (mid-1980s-ish) was there a classification of the two scenes as we know them today.
What distorts this view to what i regard as a myth is that younger people coming in all the time over the years were attracted by the shiny crack intros of the games they played, to then discover the demo scene with their gameless intros etc. - mistaking the two scenes for parent and child rather than siblings. =)
You'll find many very hostile people over on Pouet, however, who adamantly insist on "cracking scene first, then demo scene". |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quoting KrillWhat distorts this view to what i regard as a myth is that younger people coming in all the time over the years were attracted by the shiny crack intros of the games they played, to then discover the demo scene with their gameless intros etc.
That describes my story. Still, demo scene, and crack scene were greatly intermingled for a long time on c64 and seen as one.
CSDB is a proof it is still one scene as you see all kind of "productions" here. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Yeah, I’d definitely agree that it felt like one scene. Why else would demo coders gladly be members of groups also involved in cracking? I can remember a time when it seemed that everyone deep into the demoscene was declaring “no games please!” and such with their contacts. That’s about as disjoint as the two became at the time. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting RaistlinI can remember a time when it seemed that everyone deep into the demoscene was declaring “no games please!” and such with their contacts. That’s about as disjoint as the two became at the time. Wonder whether the "other side" also started to feel so strongly at some point.
Unfortunately, many artefacts of the olden days seem lost.
I'd like to have more hard proof that people at copy parties copied ALL the cool stuff they could get their hands on, and that this included stand-alone demos not linked with a cracked game (but possibly still on the same disk, together with a number of cracks). |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
"The demo scene emanates from the cracking scene."
@Krill:
Why do you seem to have such a burning desire to disprove this? What's the point? And even if there was a point, how would you do that? Disprove it? This has been retold by quite a number of personal experiences (mine included) and a few research papers.
BTW teenagers shouting profanities on conference calls made possible by US supplied cards was also quite a standard part of the scene. Does that bother you also? |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
Wow, that was a strong reaction :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
What drives me to conclusion that conventional wisdom repeated so many times represented by the sentence "The demo scene emanates from the cracking scene" is fully true, or anyway true enough from today's perspective that it doesn't really warrant further investigation efforts is this:
1) Outside of copyparties (decide for yourself why they were called COPYparties), the only channel of propagation for C64 demos was the SWAPPER NETWORK. In other words, a network of swappers had to be pre-established in order for demos to be spread. This network was established for swapping of cracks. In this regard, the description "The demo scene emanates from cracking scene" works perfectly.
2) Why do you think these copyparties were prominent in Denmark and especially in Netherlands and not so much in Germany (where the scene had the strongest numbers)? My guess is because of government crackdown on piracy. Which was prominent in Germany, but not in Netherlands. So what's closest to Germany but not under German government's jurisdiction? Aha. Is it so hard to imagine that even people who were never into cracking and only into demo making, still enjoyed the allure, the fame, the notoriety of being in cracker groups, being part of the subculture. That's the scene, and that's why when talking about the scene roots "The demo scene emanates from cracking scene" seems unquestionable to me.
Therefore, I can't think of a better explanation than "The demo scene emanates from cracking scene", and for the life of me cannot understand the urge, the need to disprove this. |
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AüMTRöN
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 44 |
Demo scene may well have come from cracking scene, but anyway...
Demo scene > cracking scene.
I'll get me coat. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
That escalated quickly |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Quote: Demo scene may well have come from cracking scene, but anyway...
Demo scene > cracking scene.
I'll get me coat.
They are hopelessly intertwined. :) I think this paper is pretty interesting and brings light on why we can't agree here: http://widerscreen.fi/numerot/2014-1-2/crackers-became-us-demos..
"The pirate–demoscene split illustrates the complex mechanisms of how a community is born out of another, establishes its own practices and repurposes the existing ones. Having said that, it is also evident as to how such a separation is not a binary one: there have been links between the two communities as long as they have existed, and by time divergence can even turn back into convergence. Moreover, the fluidity of sceners’ identities lets willing members cross the border between different cliques and generations, and thus identify with more than just one group." |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting HCLWow, that was a strong reaction :) Quoting chatGPZThat escalated quickly Oh, Fourgy? He does that all the time. =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Just to stir the pot a bit: i'd like to see proof that the demoscene did NOT originate on compunet. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: Quoting HCLWow, that was a strong reaction :) Quoting chatGPZThat escalated quickly Oh, Fourgy? He does that all the time. =)
Guilty as charged. I know. I admit. Sorry, I guess it’s some kinda autism.
About the subject. (Well not the real subject, Krill already hijacked that with his fishooks some time ago…) History is full of “informed best guesses”. Krill, i just happen to strongly think that you simply cannot provide enough evidence to eliminate the current “informed best guess” i.e. current standing theory and justify a major rethink + emergence of a new, different “informed best guess”. One can go and question every single “informed best guess” in whole of human history. That’s pretty useless. And counterproductive. We can try to re-re-revision history for a millionth time. For what?
And if you yourself are not willing to perform an extensive research into the matter, I don’t understand what exactly are you trying to accomplish with your “in my book” statements. Are you fishing, are you luring someone else to perform the research to back or dismiss your opinion? Or you’re perhaps just doing it to make that autist Fourgy blabber? Remember, we have a valid theory about the begginings of the demoscene. If you want do disprove this theory, do the research, publish results. You shouldn’t tempt the other side to prove what needs no further proof for now, you’re the one with a “new insight” who should search for proof, do a whole new research thru some new approach, not just pull stuff out of your nose. |
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deetsay
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 43 |
Handles and groups originate from the telephone phreaking scene. Or maybe it's some cowboy thing where all famous gunslingers have a nickname? Or a circus performer thing?
I wouldn't be surprised if animating logos, balls, scrollers, credits and greetings (like the Spreadpoint prod that was linked) could be found in C64 crack intros even before 1986, but either way that "demo" specifically simply looks to me like a crack intro on crack (pun intended).
And finally, the Amiga was obviously more powerful and a lot of the techniques that drive modern C64 demos weren't invented until the 90s, so... I think I get what @mankeli was saying, but the wording "C64 demoscene is younger" is just not right. That's certainly not physically the case with the people involved, and the demoscene absolutely has roots on the C64, meaning it older, not younger, regardless of what may have been happening later. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting deetsayI wouldn't be surprised if animating logos, balls, scrollers, credits and greetings (like the Spreadpoint prod that was linked) could be found in C64 crack intros even before 1986, but either way that "demo" specifically simply looks to me like a crack intro on crack (pun intended). The vast majority of early demos undeniably shares a lot of style with crack intros, but that wouldn't contradict either interpretation, imho, of the demo scene springing from cracking scene vs both of them emerging at the same time, with a common proto-scene ancestor. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
This topic is something for the most high gentlemen of the Scene Court to decide, with wigs on. Not up to you low life guys to decide just like that. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101 |
I think it's a microcosm of more serious things. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Well. Both me and MacX has already stated the obvious many times, and we also had a smaller copy party up on the big royal barrow at Jelling, Denmark (close to Harald Bluetooth's runestone) together with Morphfrog and Zzap69 to connect to the true scene. Confused? Here we go again:
The first scene handles were used by the vikings in Scandinavia, like Red-Ass, Óttarr the Vendel Crow, and Ketill Flatnose, for example. This is well known. Runestones were made, where data was preserved for well over 1000 years - look at it as primitive scroll texts, but instead of the text moving, you have to move your head (more or less like a floppy drive, where the head moves to read). Only the elite knew runes, which made this scene exclusive just like the scene is today. You might wonder what all this has to do with the C64? Well, it's a code: as you know C stands for 100 in roman numerals, and then add 64 = 164. The runestone 164 in Spånga, Södermanland, Sweden, just happens to mention a swapper, Guðmarr, who eagerly awaits to visit other countries to spread and mostly get new warez: "Guðbjôrn (and) Oddi, they raised this stone in memory of Guðmarr, their father. He who died stood valiantly in the staff of the ship; (now) lies inhumed in the west." The stone is of course coded for sceners eyes only, as it sports not only long-branch runes, but also cipher runes made of both short-twig runes and staveless runes. Coincidence? I think not.
There is more evidence, but it does not remain, because it is gone. |
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Ziaxx
Registered: Oct 2020
Posts: 18 |
I think the original post got "demoscene" mixed up with "demo effects". It's possible that there were raster effects and such on the Amiga before the C64, but to me anything made to be spread to others is part of the scene. A simple picture with a scroller and ripped music is also part of the scene, and those were around way earlier. All those music collections with music from various games as well. Just because it doesn't include raster bars or other effects doesn't excude it from the scene, because then all the new releases such as graphics and PETSCII aren't part of the scene either, and that doesn't make much sense, right? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
My guess is the concept "demoscene" was invented on the Amiga, before that, on the C64, it was only "The Scene" - with everyone intertwined in a big chaotic family, making cracks, demos, intros etc.
With the Amiga and Atari ST everything obviously had to be autistically sorted into horrible terms like dentro, cracktro, trackmo whatever. :D |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@hedning
Thank you for providing us with fresh evidence of demoscene being a direct descendent of the old vikings. Now, this is exactly the sort of new and indisputable evidence I talked about, new evidence that scholars like Krill needed to finally put to rest that false myth we common folk believe, the myth of demoscene emanating from crackerscene. |
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AüMTRöN
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 44 |
Quote: Just to stir the pot a bit: i'd like to see proof that the demoscene did NOT originate on compunet.
Good call... I was thinking of throwing the old CNET into the mix... |
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Scrap
Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 20 |
ok… just to end this discussion and clear things up: It was me. I invented the demoscene. Everything. The scene, the demos, every single effect… period. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
It appears that the demoscene flew into our lives on a blast of wind from Howard Stern's ass. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: The demo scene emanates from the cracking scene, and the crack intros, which is well known, with early examples on the Apple II. The C64 scene were prominent early on, though.
no.
you can make interesting visual stuff with computers, and you dont need to remove copy protection to do it. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: "The demo scene emanates from the cracking scene."
@Krill:
Why do you seem to have such a burning desire to disprove this? What's the point? And even if there was a point, how would you do that? Disprove it? This has been retold by quite a number of personal experiences (mine included) and a few research papers.
BTW teenagers shouting profanities on conference calls made possible by US supplied cards was also quite a standard part of the scene. Does that bother you also?
what is there to disprove?
prove it first. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Lol @ hedning. Pretty plausible sounding theory!
And of course there were programs like music collections, piccolo mouso, utilities, letters etc. circulating before Amiga was released. Also programs for Apple2, and for whatever other computers.
But I was thinking if the common visual "style" (with raster effects like rasterbars, scrollers, big moving logos) was invented on the Amiga, since the Copper made such effects part of the "native featureset" of the machine. And by defining an unique look like this, that kind of marked the start of "demoscene". Cracks started to have similar intro screens as well. (I quite frankly feel the Krill/4agentE's debate is mostly arguing about semantics)
It's maybe just my personal bias though. For many others demoscene productions probably don't mean the c64 onescreeners with rasterbars and rotating cube, but the late 1990's 3D engine flybys, or maybe 201x single-shader 4k intros. It's all part of a long continuum anyway. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
No.
You can make interesting visual stuff with computers, and still not be a part of the demoscene.
You can code cracktros/intros, and you don't need to remove copy protection to do it.
You do realize there are computer demos outside of demoscene. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: No.
You can make interesting visual stuff with computers, and still not be a part of the demoscene.
You can code cracktros/intros, and you don't need to remove copy protection to do it.
You do realize there are computer demos outside of demoscene.
in c64 context this is not true.
proof: Synth Sample |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:prove it first.
Wrong.
Nobody pulled the statement "The demo scene emanates from the cracking scene" out of his/her nose.
1) It says so on Wikipedia. That doesn't mean it's right. But it's on you to disprove it. You can also edit the Wikipedia page like anyone else.
2) It also says so in a few research papers / books. That also doesn't mean it's right, but it's on you to disprove it.
3) It says so in a dozen interviews / personal recounts. That also doesn't mean it's right, but it's on you to disprove it.
(1), (2) and (3) make it "common knowledge" or "informed best guess". You need to disprove that to plant a different "informed best guess" in its place. That's how it works.
Until then it's your opinion against "common knowledge". |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Quote:prove it first.
Wrong.
Nobody pulled the statement "The demo scene emanates from the cracking scene" out of his/her nose.
1) It says so on Wikipedia. That doesn't mean it's right. But it's on you to disprove it. You can also edit the Wikipedia page like anyone else.
2) It also says so in a few research papers / books. That also doesn't mean it's right, but it's on you to disprove it.
3) It says so in a dozen interviews / personal recounts. That also doesn't mean it's right, but it's on you to disprove it.
(1), (2) and (3) make it "common knowledge" or "informed best guess". You need to disprove that to plant a different "informed best guess" in its place. That's how it works.
Until then it's your opinion against "common knowledge".
Same way I can say demoscene doesnt comes from crack scene because Oswald and Krill says so in csdb (it doesnt mean its right but you have to disprove it), and thus it is common knowledge. (1) and (2)
:D
you came empty handed man. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Here's the link man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene
until you edit it, all you're doing is trolling. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Here's the link man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene
until you edit it, all you're doing is trolling.
here is the link to csdb where Oswald says it otherwise, https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=7&topicid=166812&showallposts=1
and you need to disprove it. until you dont you're trolling. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
Regarding "scene": This is like trying to determine when consciousness emerged :). Regarding influence of stuff possible on a platform a to platform b, I'd just follow the timeline of hardware availability and when it got popular among programmers. Hardware -> style of effects. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Well, OK Oswald J. Trump. You won another thread. You're the bestest! |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Quote: Regarding "scene": This is like trying to determine when consciousness emerged :). Regarding influence of stuff possible on a platform a to platform b, I'd just follow the timeline of hardware availability and when it got popular among programmers. Hardware -> style of effects.
That's exactly what I mean! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Well, OK Oswald J. Trump. You won another thread. You're the bestest!
yes, not in a nice way, but I am showing you, why your arguments are worthless. prove it with facts, and not by pointing to other opinions.
Krill must be closest to the truth, that they evolved side by side at the same time.
Otherwise imho its a myth by crackers wanting some credit from the demoscene.
first intros and demos are at the same time. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:its a myth by crackers wanting some credit from the demoscene.
Oooooh, it's a conspiracy. Now I get it. Thanks man! I bet those evil crackers are being financed by Soros. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Go code a demo ALL OF YOU - no further derailing here |
