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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
History Fakers
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,126692-page,14-c,systems/arti..
c64 not even on the top 25 pcs of all time while trash like trs80 is on it.
appleII is the number one pc while pet was released earlier.
great.
thanks apple. I bloody hate you. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
For some reason "serious" people do not like Commodore and tend to ignore it when doing "history". Same with the profs at my uni. It's a horrible thought to them that it was computer games which made computers big. |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
Who the fuck takes pcworld serious anyways?!!?
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
..and then to know that a hell of a lot it-ppl had a commodore as first computer |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
many of machines shown in that article aren't very cool actually and additionally their descriptions sucks [were made for lame dumbasess probably] , so who cares? |
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Skylab
Registered: Dec 2005
Posts: 183 |
Great to see that our lovely machines aren't mentioned... Have you ever said to your 'bread box'; i love this PC????
I did it never because it was and will always be the best Home-Computer...
Wired people all over the world...
Greetz!
Skylab |
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Tao
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 115 |
Then again - could computing get any more personal than with a 64? Sure, I like my Thinkpad x60s; it's a neat machine. But I wouldn't miss it if it broke. And I definitely don't dream in terms of demo ideas for anything else than the 64...
The 64 might possibly be not only the best PC, but the *only* real PC. |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
Quote: Then again - could computing get any more personal than with a 64? Sure, I like my Thinkpad x60s; it's a neat machine. But I wouldn't miss it if it broke. And I definitely don't dream in terms of demo ideas for anything else than the 64...
The 64 might possibly be not only the best PC, but the *only* real PC.
So true TAO, although that X60 is very nice, the only thing I can fault it on is the brand name Lenovo (IBM should never have sold off their thinkpads).. having said that you hit the nail on the head.. I would never shed a tear for replacing a notebook for a better, younger, thinner, quicker, etc. model..
Of all the series of other c64s that Ive collected over the years theres only one real c64 for me.. the one that I bought brand new and kickstarted my life of endless piracy ;) I will use this machine filled with god knows how many drink spills, stickers, breadcrumbs, cigarette ashes, etc. until it dies.
My own C64 is almost female.. hehe.. Sure I can flirt and admire C65s, SX64s, 128s or other cute c64s.. but Ill always come back home to my old true love.. besides.. she has the cutest little sid voice of all ;)
Shit.. someone call Dr.Phil for an episode "I Love my C64" :)
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Christ, can you imagine a "pop psych" show like that (we have a couple over here, one is hosted by someone who actually knows what she's talking about so if everyone fancies piling over to the UK for it...? =-) about C64 love... some of us'd be getting arrested for lewd behaviour with an 8-bit micro!
Y'know... whilst i appreciate the contributions some machines like the Apple II and the MITS Altair made to home computing, i can't see the point of including the "pretty" PCs and the C64 should have been in there for multiple reasons; because it carried several hardware features, that it had a longer commercial lifespan than any machine in that list and still retains a small but insane... erm, active user base, that it did more to popularise home computing than most other machines (other machines made major headway, but not in as many different markets) and because there's just so damned many of 'em out there.
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
A simpler test would have been to ask plenty of older generations how many had first used a C64. With its good sales for a long period it is a significant part of comuting history. Some people in various IT industries built a name for themselves with C64 from Xample, JT, Rob Hubbard, Charles Deenen, and there could be a massive list. It was the 8 bit computer used for games through to productivity. Even Linus Torvalds has mentioned it in interviews. |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
Tmr.. well obviously its the games history of the c64 that causes historians to neglect the c64 from p.c. status. Fair or not? Who knows.. I only knew very few companies actually using the c64 as a real computer so in that perspective there is a good point. (although I might not like to admit that)
In gaming history, the c64 is also often skipped. Have you ever heard people saying they are from the Nintendo or Atari generation? Sigh.. I hate those annoying game players, reminds me of fights with friends when I was young whether or not to view a crack intro or hit space immediately to start a game. (and since I provided most of them with games, if I was there they were forced to read the scroller.. hehe).
Tja.. and that list is actually quite arguable even if youd consider only real PCs.. a poor mans way of making a top 25 list at best.
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quote: A simpler test would have been to ask plenty of older generations how many had first used a C64. With its good sales for a long period it is a significant part of comuting history. Some people in various IT industries built a name for themselves with C64 from Xample, JT, Rob Hubbard, Charles Deenen, and there could be a massive list. It was the 8 bit computer used for games through to productivity. Even Linus Torvalds has mentioned it in interviews.
errr, that was a VIC-20 (his grandfather's), but point taken :D
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Bordeaux, here in hungary c64's were used for everything back in the day :) fathers brought c64s from the company to home for weekends to have the kids a good play :)
btw some dumbass atari dude from the forum of pcworld:
"C64 has the same architecture as Atari computers, even like some enginners said, there is reverse engineering in some aspects. The list includes the first computer in the serie of innovation." |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
The Atari fan is wrong of course, nobody at Commodore said they'd gone as far as actually reverse engineering the Atari although they happily admitted to looking at all of the would-be competition and nicking the bits they liked for the C64. A lot of what is seen as borrowed from the 800 actually wasn't, since a couple of the more obvious influences on the C64 are the Apple ][ (graphics modes) and Commodore's own PET (text based screen) and both of these predate the Atari 800. This kind of borrowing was commonplace and [i]everybody[/i] was doing the same at that time; Atari were no more innocent of it than the others and it can and has been argued that the 800's graphics modes are similar to those of the Apple ][ and PET as well.
At Bordeaux: The gaming history really shouldn't make a difference, the Atari 800 was pitched pretty much purely at the gaming market to the point of Atari discouraging business software development whilst the C64 was originally pushed as a business machine in the same way the Amiga 1000 would later be - C.B.M. was, after all, Commodore Business Machines. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Hmmm
http://www.4to40.com/recordbook/index.asp?category=&counter=190 |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@oswald
here in holland, especially around Eindhoven where I grew up, things were quite Philips dominated. So a lot of P2000 machines or the G7000 as a games machine and later the msx. Both gaming consoles were a lot of fun for gaming but eventually I fell in love with the c64 due to these cool pirates messages game broken by
:)
@tmr
Hmm.. im actually always wondered what would have happened to the quality of Atari software if there had been a huge scene like the c64 had. Quite sure that the hardware/software was never fully optimized on most of their systems simply because of not enough people inventing new routines, modes, etc.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
atari hardware was too weak for good games, atleast in the usual eighties 2d platform/walkaround department. sprites were unusable, and gfxmodes cant use more colors than 4 in reasonable resolutions. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Five colours in most char modes and you can push that around a little bit if you use the sprites to underlay stuff Oswald, that's part of what makes the Atari hardware interesting... some of the recent stuff has done things that nobody realised were do-able and there's a nice looking platformer on the way as well...
It's a shame the Atari didn't get a large scene though, it could've done so much more like Bordeaux says - i reckon there's loads of stuff a really hot coder could come up with. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Oh well, Atari people always have the problem that they can't understand why C64 ruled and Atari XL did not. Usually they have crappy explanations like "Atari's marketing was lame" or "C64 was supported by companys and Atari was not".
Only lame excuses for the simple facts: C64 can display nicer graphics and have better music combined with far nicer sprites. If you look at Turrican you have a perfect example of this: That game has music the Atari could never do, combined with background graphics the Atari could never do in addition with dozens of big sprites the Atari could never do. It's as simple as that: For typical 80's games, the C64 is just much much better (despite the fact that the Atari "wins" on the specifications, i.e. more colors, more MHz and more sound voices).
The Atari was better in other departments: It had a faster CPU which helped on 3D games, but sadly 3D was never a realm were ANY 8 bit computer was good at, so this is nothing of a competition really. Only very few nice 3D games on 8 bit computers come to my mind... |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
From the Introduction-pages of On the Edge - The Spectacular Rise & Fall of Commodore (http://www.commodorebook.com):
The history of early computers has tended to focus on Microsoft, IBM and Apple, snubbing contributions made by Commodore. "There is a lot of revisionism going on and I don't think it's fair," says Commodore 64 designer Robert Yannes. "People wanted to ignore Commodore."
An early-popularized story of the microcomputer revolution was Accidental Empires, by Robert X. Cringely (born Mark Stephens). The former Apple employee perpetuated a select view of the microcomputer revolution, a view that not everyone accepts as accurate.
...
PBS adapted Cringley's book as a popular TV series, Triumph of the Nerds (1996). The adaptation ignored Commodore completely.
...
When writers are not ignoring Commodore, they often get their facts wrong. In The Silicon Boys and their Valley of Dreams, David Kaplan descibes the Apple IPO in 1980 and then adds, "But Apple soon bred competition. Radio Shack and Commodore and even Atari, among others, started selling their own personal computers."
In truth, Commodore and Radio Shack began selling personal computers in 1977, and Atari followed in 1979.
---
8Bit Mayhem - The C64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.untergrund.net |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@tmr
Recent stuff for Atari? Now that would be interesting to see.. any clue where to find that?
@graham
Oh yeah.. 3d games on 8bit.. :(
Stunt Car Racer does come to mind (http://c64s.com/game/1059/stunt_car_racer/) but I still remember the laughter of my amiga pals back in those days ringing in my head.. hehe.. I guess that was a decent attempt by Micropose at least. (Did it ever sell well on the c64?)
@scout
Actually been thinking of buying that book.. Have you by any chance read it? By reading the bits on their website I find it so hard to judge if it would be a good read or a disappointment for the $$$ it costs.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Bordeaux, if you're interested in commodore's history that book is THE BOOK. The writer has interviewed ppl like Chuck Peddle, Bob Yannes, Leonard Tramiel, and the list goes on and on, it is based on an extreme amount of research, and its a very good read. I have bought it on BP06, have read 1/3 of it before getting home, and I've finished the rest in one go :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Bordeaux: probably the best bet is Atari Age, although the really interesting stuff seems to come out of the Polish part of the Atari scene so only gets reported in passing. www.atariage.com
i gave the Atari a few little... erm, shoves with the port of my own game Reaxion; eight colours a scanline for example... that's on the Cosine site. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@Bordeaux:
There are only few examples of "good" 3D on 8 bits. Elite and Mercenary come to mind. And games like Driller, but those are so slow that it does not matter if the CPU is twice as fast or not, the game stays slow.
When it comes to games where the A8 shows things the C64 cannot do as nice, mostly the early Lucasfilm games come to mind. Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus, Koronis Rift and The Eidolon are much better on the Atari XL than on C64. The 3D is more fluid because the XL has a faster CPU and hardware 2x2/4x1 pixel modes, and Koronis Rift also looks much nicer due to a Z-shading with 16 colors instead of just 4 like on C64. Oh and ofcourse pure CPU games like Mercenary are slightly more smooth on A8. Elite however does not exist for that platform...
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@oswald
Ok great thanks.. sounds like a nice xmas goodie Ill buy for myself then ;)
@tmr
Thanks for the url. Any suggestions on which emulator and which wares to check out?
@graham
Cool.. interesting.. something to check out, thanks.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Best emu is Atari 800Win Plus (version 4) but at the moment i'm a little out of touch for wares; Flowers Mania was pretty cool, some amazing footage (but sadly not code right now) of the ongoing Space Harrier port, i'll plug my own game Reaxion because i'm still pretty proud of what i did there and i've totally forgotten the name of the nearly complete platformer that's been previewed recently and looks very nice but it's on Atari Age! =-) Numen is probably one of the best demos going, although it needs a RAM expansion on most models of Atari (i have the emu set up as a Rambo expansion-equipped machine as default).
numen.scene.pl points to the demo and the Atari 800Win as well as explaining how to turn on the RAM expansion. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Sadly most recent demos for A8 only work with a 320 KB RAM expansion. It's the typical "small scene"-behaviour: They use weirdo extra hardware to make the small scene even smaller by excluding people with standard hardware. It was the same with the +4 scene in the 90's. I hate that. |
