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Adam The Axe
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 6 |
The Scene as it was.
I was in The Scene, therefore, I know what went on in the C64 scene. I see TOP GROUPS listed over there on the side display and I see DD listed #2, okay, I can buy alittle of that, Robin was a good dude, but there was only 1 number UNO in all of the C64 scene... and as much as I hate to admit, it was ESI, ONLY. Far and away, this group did more for C64 than any group, ever. Fairlight and Red Sector were a close second but not even close to Eaglesoft. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I also vouch for that, release-wise during the time period anyway.
More information on why ESI rocked so hard? The check the nice article put together by moi (with help from By-tor and Mitch).
http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=online&issu..
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
ESI is the greatest cracking group ever, through sheer dominance. However, the scene evolved into so much more than cracking and spreading. I'd say Crest's #1 position in the chart is well earned, but it's of course subject to debate.
Today, there's no doubt that the legal scene is the healthier one, so no surprise if some of the cracking heroes of the past don't get as much attention as they deserve. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Why is ESI the best cracking group? Because they had a cool-looking eagle as intro-pic and we all grew up with it, looking up to the elite guys creating that intro and the releases it was linked in front of? |
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Mason
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 461 |
Quote: Why is ESI the best cracking group? Because they had a cool-looking eagle as intro-pic and we all grew up with it, looking up to the elite guys creating that intro and the releases it was linked in front of?
They did some fantastic stuff on protections and so.
US Games were the home of nasty protections and ESI could do them. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
I'll confirm what mason says.
USA games have MUCH harder protection than anything I have ever seen come from pal land. He did them in some hours most times, maybe a weekend for the harder stuff.
Take Down Wrestling is just brilliant. Hardest game ever to crack! (I know, I got all the originals, and I'm a cracker ;)
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
DD is not #2 but #1 of the cracking groups. And when it comes to demos, both groups have earned exactly nothing, so Crest #1 in the overall groups is ok for me. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I have the utmost respect for ESI, as does almost everybody here, especially the ones who, like Krill said, grew up with their intros.
But, being somebody who prefers demos over games and who didn't leave the scene to come back 20 years later wondering what happened, I have even more respect for other groups. Like Crest, the Vibrants, the Maniacs of Noise, but also Panoramic Designs, Triad & Fairlight. And I am quite certain a lot of other people feel the same way, maybe different names, but tastes differ, thank god. I couldn't handle it if you all loved me the same way my girlfriend does for example ;)
(I was desperately trying to insert a scene-handle there but couldn't come up with one of which I'm certain it's true. Now isn't that sad?)
Anyway, ESI is #6 in the charts, which is pretty damn good for a group that has been gone that long. If somebody feels they should be even higher there's only one thing to do: make sure more people vote 10s for it than for Crest.
Until that happens, ESI is not the most popular group here on csdb, it's that simple. No matter how good their cracks were.
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The Shark-INC
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 24 |
ESI was a great group, and probably the most memorable, but let's note the good with the bad. ESI never level crunched, never added fast loaders, and didn't take as much pride in their cracks as Europeans in terms of fixing their own bugged cracks. On top of that, ESI used their intimidation powers much like Microsoft did in order to have other groups' cracks deleted from BBSes. And let's not forget how they used their minions like Pira-Ted to harass and turn in competition.
ESI, a one man group really, could sit back munching Doritos before casually deciding to crack games. In Europe, the competition was much more fierce which IMO created better crackers. I honestly think Europes' top 5 crackers could all easily surpass Mitch if given a game at the same time. Whenever Mitch did have serious competition with UCF, ESI looked vulnerable. Yes, Mitch still was better than JJ but I think that the lack of competition make ESI look better than they truly were. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Great insights! |
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SECRET MAN
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 336 |
Quote: ESI was a great group, and probably the most memorable, but let's note the good with the bad. ESI never level crunched, never added fast loaders, and didn't take as much pride in their cracks as Europeans in terms of fixing their own bugged cracks. On top of that, ESI used their intimidation powers much like Microsoft did in order to have other groups' cracks deleted from BBSes. And let's not forget how they used their minions like Pira-Ted to harass and turn in competition.
ESI, a one man group really, could sit back munching Doritos before casually deciding to crack games. In Europe, the competition was much more fierce which IMO created better crackers. I honestly think Europes' top 5 crackers could all easily surpass Mitch if given a game at the same time. Whenever Mitch did have serious competition with UCF, ESI looked vulnerable. Yes, Mitch still was better than JJ but I think that the lack of competition make ESI look better than they truly were.
I agree.Most of their cracks were not 100 percent,so that other groups made some demos against ESI.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Well, the anti-ESI demos werent regarding if the releases were 100 or not but more to do with the war between UCF and others (so the demos were more regarding the competitive nature as opposed to quality of cracking). |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
Id agree with THE SHARK-INC here. The general opinion about the NTSC-scene in scandinavia around the mid-late eightes was that the NTSC-scene had alot of cool games but very few quality crackers and coders for that matter, ESI not excluded. Maby it was just pure ignorance from us/me just for simply not being aware of the much harder protections "they" have to cope with. But my opinion about ESI/RAD/NFL/INC/FBR (with others) at that time; cool guys, great releases, but rather low quality of the cracks and rather poor demos. Still the mention groups is to be respected, dont get me wrong here. ESI is one of the biggest groups ever, but personaly I can think of other groups that deservs a higher possition on the top groups charts, 1001 crew for example. They did ALOT of high quality cracks, not just open the sideborder and created ESCOS! ;-)
/Icon-REM |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
i think one should not worry too much about the "Top Groups" charts as it inherently has the "apples vs oranges" concept. It is just a side effect from the more sensible charts like "Top Cracker Groups" and "Top Demo Groups". Just my 2 cents |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
I like apple-orange lemooooonade. |
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Adam The Axe
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 6 |
Let me put it another way... possibly there would not have been a scene if it hadn't been for ESI,UCF,DD and the sysop bbs's of the early 80's to 1988. I could list many many others but these were the early pioneers of the C64 and early IBM games. Demos were really the euro's thing because they couldn't get the games as fast as the americans so they couldn't crack as fast. The rule was, whoever put it out first got the credit, which is why the cracks were not that good. If you didn't get it out today, someone else was putting it out tomorrow. Most good groups had insiders in computer stores. Demos were what euros did to compensate for the lack of cracks. Some games were sent to DD, Fairlight,etc because of the lack of a good cracker. At one point, there were games coming out everyday, my group, which was anarchist and trading would send games to others in europe, like Robin,Radwar,Red Sector and even Triad to get cracks. Crest wasn't even a gleam in Mitch's eye and I'm sure they are good demo writers, but they were not about the scene when it was a scene. I can say the euros were the smartest young c64 composers of demos and music. Americans didn't do demos, we had the WAREZ! That's why I say there is only one #1, even though I hated all of them, they were what made the scene happen. Find anyone that was anyone from 1983 to 1988 and they will tell you the same. There was many facets to the scene, crackers,sysops,phreakers,black boxers,music,demos,anarchist, etc. Don't want to step on toes but I was there. I found this place recently because I was looking for an old friend in my group, his name was Popoo, so if anyone knows anything about him, let me know. Also, Popoo had the largest collection of C64 software of anyone, he never deleted a thing and had one of the largest BBS's around during that time. Talk to me. |
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Adam The Axe
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 6 |
BTW, Graham, you are about 3 years out of place if you came in at 1991. DD was dead (sorry) long before 1991. Also, do you know any people from Sunrise, they were a demo group, I think from around Bielefeld? |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
"Demos were really the euro's thing because they couldn't get the games as fast as the americans so they couldn't crack as fast."
Americans propably got american games first, but you ignore the fact that the majority of C64 games was made in Europe.
Also, demo coders usually became demo coders because coding was more interesting to them than cracking. Investing a lot of time to understand other people's code is boring to some people who prefer to create own things.
And finally: I coded a lot of stuff on C64 long before 1991 and also did a few cracks. But at some point I got so bored about games I deleted them all and focussed entirely on demos. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
The biggest games were in the USA in the eighties. The UK had some big ones but not until much later on. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946 |
I think the Top Groups chart is based on 25 years of scene activities, not only first 5 years. If Crossbow finds new features even today, I'd say Crest deserves the no.1 spot. |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
@Adam the axe: I had never heard of ESi or UCF or any other of the NTSC groups when I started my first group in 85 or so. As you say the history of "the scene" has many different facets and according to whom you speak with regarding where in the world you come from it seems that it sprung up alot of different "scenes" in different places in the world at the same time, but with WAY different influences. When we write 2007 and most of us still interesting in the old commie gathering around a few sites and IRC channels on the net we can get the perspective of the BIG picture and it just dont match the way we remember it. What Im trying to say blabbing away here is that to say that there wouldnt be any scene without the BBS'es and the NTSC groups its a big overstatement. I can easierly say that it woulnt be any scene without MR.Z, the whole cnet, WCC, BAM, JEDI and even the mighty Bogg, but that wouldnt be true for a guy in Australia started out in 85 or so. To say that the PAL scene lacked(!) of cracks or games to crack is just untrue and just shows that the NTSC guys back then knew just as little about "us" that we knew about "them". ;-)
Greetz Icon |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Cheers to Graham, Hein & Icon for saying what I wanted to say, but so much more eloquently ;) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Ok, lets get a few things straight here.
First off, the rules of releasing in USA were different , especially in the early days. The rule was, the crack must be as close to the original as possible (AFAIK). I've heard that from several older sceners, including JJ-UCF (Who was my first mentor btw).
Yes, Mitch was better. I agree there.
Ok, you just do not understand the complexity of USA protected games, so I think you better shut up about the level packing bits... most people couldn't crack it to files even.
The VERY BEST pal crackers are able to handle such things, I will say Antitrack and MrZ could do such things. That's some lofty company to keep up with.
This was fun discussions in Nostalgia at times aswell, as some group members didn't beleive me until I started supplying the ories ;)
I suggest before you start posting opinions about such stuff, you better have a background in it... no? I'm certainly not going to post about phreaking or organizing, not my role, dunno about the ins and outs of that.
Remember, also these people were isolated information wise, there wasn't fabby books, and buddies who could also crack at the same level to talk to. As any decent cracker was snatched up by any group who get them, and often times the best were scene enemies. You have to respect them for PIONEERING what they did.
Sure, they didn't level pack, there was just to many games to crack to bother waiting a day to level pack something which is 6 bloody sides to find out your level packer was bugging on file 122... 1stie scene is about SPEED. Mail scene was about High Quality. Don't confuse things.
P.S. Icon, stop pretending to be your brother, we all know about it, it just stupid. As I said before, keep your lies to the lemon lamers who will believe it. |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
@Fungus! What are you talking about? Are you totaly insane? Stop pretending to be who? You shouting lamer at me now and then and now you are accusing me for being somebody else? Time to do some explonation and not just let your big mouth run....or not to hijack this thread send me a PM or start another thread! Jesus! |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I agree with Fungus regarding 'background' on subject-matter.
I also agree that it is simply apples and oranges here.
In my view there is no top group, as this is just a matter of personal opinion.
We all acknowledge ESI, we all acknowledge CREST, that's all there is to it. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Yes, there are also no top crackers, top coders etc. pp. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
offtopic, but I never understood the horribly slow loaders in cracks, I hated the crackers for not being able add a fastloader... :) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Oswald: that's cause they had dolphindos/rapidos :)
Icon: you are Icon/REM right?
hehe
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
heh, I wasnt even aware of cracker / fastloader carts until like 95-96 (!) :D |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: heh, I wasnt even aware of cracker / fastloader carts until like 95-96 (!) :D
?
Fast loader carts were all the rage from ~86-ish.
Cracker carts started appearing around the same time...
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
tlr, small town in the communist block, no papermags, no computer stores, etc. I only knew what my friends knew. I only had the games my friends had, etc. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: tlr, small town in the communist block, no papermags, no computer stores, etc. I only knew what my friends knew. I only had the games my friends had, etc.
Didn't think about that...
86-ish where I lived, we drowned in cracks, demos, german/american/swedish computer mags and books.
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
Quote: Oswald: that's cause they had dolphindos/rapidos :)
Icon: you are Icon/REM right?
hehe
Yes and it would be very nice if you could light up my and maby some others mind with a) what are you meaning by "pretending to be my brother" and b) what are the lies you refer to that you accuse me of? Hope you realize that its very impolite to grab accusations from thin air and not even tell whats behind the nonsens. I can very easy prove to you every single line that is written in my profile and that its me. I feel it VERY disturbing that you even question my reability, especaliy when you not even try to come with ANY background or theory. Its just plain insane if you ask me. |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
Thx Icon and Fungus for your out-of-topic talk in here :) |
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The Shark-INC
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 24 |
Okay, now this is getting fun... :) Let's look at the various arguments.
The I-Was-There-and-You-Weren't Argument: This can be valid in cases that aren't well documented, such as how it was on the BBSes. But for releases, this has to be the most archived part of the C64. The releases speak for themselves at this point. Plus, I was there too. But if one is to use this argument to disqualify other's opinions, then how can Adam dismiss the scene post 1988 when he wasn't present? You can't have it both ways.
The You-Better-Shut-Up-Since-You-Never-Cracked Argument: You know I respect you Fungus, so don't get too worked up about my level packing comment. But does one have to know how to crack to understand that ESI releases were easily being level packed by Europeans? I'm not talking rocket science here or the intricate details of a protection scheme. Yes, Mitch did believe in leaving the crack as the original (except for that ESI intro, cough...), and I think that he was able to get away with with this approach due to the lack of competition.
Moving on, I am suppose to believe that only 1-2 Europeans could have cracked American protection? Then why was it that some no-name Hungarian was able to move to the USA and chew up American protection just as easily as any other cracker? Of course, that no-name was Horizon, and he eventually went on to make a huge name for himself in NEC. And he level packed and added fast loaders. :)
I have great respect for ESI, and you can't have a top five list with out them, but I certainly am not in awe of them. I just think they've been over hyped and given far too much credit. And perhaps that was one of their greatest accomplishments: spinning the ESI name and mystique. They get a #1 on marketing, that's for sure.
The Shark |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Wanna see more hype? then check the complete history, interviews, everything at:
http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=online&issu..
Interestingly I've approached several "DEMO" groups in the hope of creating a similar article to the Eagle Soft one (f.e. CREST) but no takers so far. No wonder cracking groups get all the hype when the legal guys are not as easily approachable! (at least from an editors point-of-view; not much luck on the legal side so far). |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
As Hein said. The scene is 25 years. Old groups, crackers, coders, deserve respect for being pioneers in cracking, democoding, phreaking (whatever reason we come up with), but charts are about competition. If they aren't competing today, might not get into today's charts. If there were some alltime charts then there could be alltime best gruops.
Everybody agrees that Ellvis is the king. But not everyobdy is listening to his music. There are many other kings.. like Michael Jackson, James Brown, Beatles, Luis Armstrong... U2.. .. etc.. but that doesn't assure them automatic position in pop-music-charts..
roman |
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Wisdom
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 90 |
Ok, back to the original post's scope, I agree with Nightlord there that it is not quite relevant to discuss Top Groups in this manner, unless there are separate charts such as Top Demo Groups and Top Cracking Groups, as was the way with the diskmags.
Otherwise, the topic is just floating to random points.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Ok, back to the original post's scope, I agree with Nightlord there that it is not quite relevant to discuss Top Groups in this manner, unless there are separate charts such as Top Demo Groups and Top Cracking Groups, as was the way with the diskmags.
Otherwise, the topic is just floating to random points.
Top cracking groups:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/toplist.php?type=group&subtype=%282%..
Top demogroups:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/toplist.php?type=group&subtype=%281%..
Also, I think an overall chart does have its merits. It's all about what groups made the best impression on the sceners, dependless of their specialty. |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
thanks for that link TDJ.
But to me it just shows what I already thought..
the CSDB votes represent very little.
for example Commando Frontier on place 4 with only 6 people having voted on them whilst Crazy on place 71, or RSI on 73 or NEI on 79, Exodus on 80.. etc. just to mention a few.
It has very little to do with the impact a group made and everything to do with the way, or better said how little people actually vote on csdb.
Lets say 100 people where asked to vote on all the groups in this list, I am sure it would look very, very different.
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
What about a Pouet-like view on the current votes? 10-6 = thumb up, 5-3 = piggy, 2-1 = thumb down. (Assuming that IF somebody votes he is atleast liking the production enough to vote for it) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Or you could just take the high marks (8-10) in consideration and forget about the rest :) |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
I actually just took the time to vote on a large heap of groups in the cracking charts and noticed something else which makes these charts very poor.. selfvoting of current of ex-members.
sigh
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Adam The Axe
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 6 |
First of all, I am from way back, anything after 1988 I know nothing about, the C64 game scene was dying, the Amiga was rolling and the FBI was popping people left and right for phone violations. I started in 1983, just after my Vic20 died.
I was in several groups, phreaking mostly, learned to black box and then ran one of the best BBS's in the USA. Of course,several make that claim which was no big deal. After we formed USSPE, we supported UCF, I was freinds with Phantom Shark and JJ. We moved their warez and we pissed off ESI as much as possible. We had many battles with Pira-Ted and NEPA, alot of stories there, alot of war-dialing and crap. Here's the sad thing, a lot of those warez that some people put out (DD) were either already cracked or someone look the loaders off. This happened alot!!! Even to ESI. DD was around in my time but made little impact until 1987 on. Not that Robin was not good but he just cleaned up games that were not cracked completely or added cheat levels. Demos were not worth piss until the gaming scene for C64 started to drop. The Euros could program like no others, so to make your group look stronger, you hooked up with some Euro groups and called them your friends and put their demos on your bbs. So, all those loaders you see, don't mean that it wasn't stolen, even ESI got ripped once we cracked his little title maker. But at the time, before imports and demos, Eaglesoft was the leader, bar none! I was a big Fairlight fan myself. So, taking nothing from Crest, you may be great with demos but that wasn't the scene, that was the end of the scene.
/dam the /xe |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
interesting view! Im the polar opposite of you, I got a 64 in about 88/89, and Ive never really cared about the gaming/cracking scene much. To me the 'scene' is demos.
Its amazing that one little beige device can mean so much to so many people, in completely different ways! |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Icon: lets just drop it, and agree to disagree. I'm really to old argue about it.
The-Shark: I respect you too man, always have. Yeah, Horizon was ok, he was better fixer than cracker tho... and we all know it. Besides, INC was beating NEC alot for awhile, no? :)
Also, those levelpacking tools and fastloaders, were all stuff coded by someone else (Legend members). It's not too hard to use someone elses tools for this. And he only got them cause of that connection with them. (As they didn't want him screwing up their releases) I bet Antitrack can confirm that.
Also, look at Metal Gear, or Castlevania, Qix, etc they are US games, released very late (91-92), and by NEC. They are not levelpacked (Qix isn't even broken out to proper files), and have no fastloaders. and Metal Gear doesn't even work. :> So out the window with that theory.
So many people recracked ESI, it is rediculous. I will point it out right here, EVERY single release, of Defender of the Crown, is recracked from ESI version. ALL of them. Except the Nostalgia version. how do I know this? because He left out a picture (one of the maidens) because the game was using 40 tracks, and all the data simply would not fit on 2 sides of a normal disk. Hmm every single version but ours, is missing the EXACT same picture, and they are byte identical, minus some trainers or intro... There is many cases of this. especially with V-max , Rapidlok, or EA protected games. In that the way he named the files, often times I think he miswrote the T/S values (which he used as file names) on purpose. It is quite obvious... I hate to bring such news to light as I know it might make alotta people angry... but the proof is right there too look at. Even some highly respected crackers recracked this game... it kinda made me sad. I am sure I could find other examples of this if I wanted to bother... but it is just a waste of time to. Just stumbled on because we did do that game from original. Also fixed the fatal bug in the game , which I am very surprised no one else did... There is also the 4th maiden picture, which is lost for good, becuase the v-max team messed up and there is no t/s data to point to it. The way the disk is contructed, it would take a complicated tool to actually find this data... so the pic seems lost forever. Check it against the amiga version which DOES have all 4. There is space on the c64 original disk for it...
Yeah you were there when I was not. so I will not argue with any first hand experience.
as for everyone else about the charts, ummm the scene is dead, haven't you noticed by now? :D I view them as all time charts, and minus the lame downvoting people do (and keeping it hidden) they look preety much ok to me. But yeah, we need more people voting... and the PEERS of that skill, not just cause you remember liking XXX group from whenever...
cheers
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
so "Defender of the Crown" the Nostalgia version is the only proper cracked. that i didnt know... thanks now i know what version to play and pass on to others as the 100% version to get :) |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
oh yeh, DOT was obvious. Even I noticed that back in the day, and as I said I care not for the cracking scene.
When I play games now I always check for a NOS/REM version first. True class. Makes some of the old 'cracks' look amateurish in comparison.
I rang Bacchus once many years ago, and even he admitted that he hated his crack of Turbo Outrun because he didnt have time to do the 2nd side properly. Lack of release pressure these days means people can spend the time and do it properly.
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
Calling the boundaries of the scene to match only some activities/time-window you got involved with personally, is plain disrespectful and delusional. Of course you have every right to think that way but don't bang your head on the wall when you voice your views and people here don't agree.
Why can't people just accept there is a wide spectrum of talent in this scene spread around different activities, geographical locations and years. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
nice DOT story. now how much respect should I pay to the cracking scene doing stuff like that ? :) |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
@Nightlord! Well said. It was exactly was I was trying to say.
@Fungus: Disagree with what? I was only defending myself when you right out of the blue accused me for being a lier and a psychopath that lies about my identity and you not even TRY to back it up with a bullshit story. Pure insane if you ask me. But Im glad you want to drop it! Saves me alot of trouble to prove you the obvious. Dont go there again if you dont want to make a complete fool out of yourself infront of everybody. Peace!
@All others: Its funny how everything changed gradiualy around 88-89. Up until then in PAL-land there was alot of cracking crews witch done some demos from time to time. Expect for the very early guys at cnet and some splendid exeptions as The Judges and Ian&Mic with others. Before 89 cracks was much more respected then demomaking. I personally just saw games as something to make great sendings and boost status as we supplied originals to Triad and Triangle at that time. Demos and the uberdemo coders like Kjer,Mastermind,Flamingo,ABS3001,Crossbow,Sodan,OmegaMan,HCL,Coko,White just to mention a few has always boost more respect than crackers and their games in my eyes. Not saying that crackers doesnt deserv respect, far from. Just saying that demos was more importend and funnier than the games. But that is highly my personal humble opinion. But I think I share this opinion with many others active in the PAL-scene. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Hello, I'm an old ex scener who just stumbled across this site and don't know anything about what happened the last 20 years and additionally, let's face it, what happened in Europe at all.
Now let me spend several posts whining about the charts on this site instead of trying to figure out what happened in the scene in the 20 years after I left, because only the first 5-6 years matter, we all know this. Demos, let's face it, are useless, you can't like, play them with your joystick, most of them don't even have a copy protection, and they are just what people did because they had nothing to crack. The only reason NTSC demos suck is because WE had better things to do, ie. crack games.
As for European software houses they didn't release games, to say that they did is just plain lies and evil revisionism. If they had released games, they most certainly wouldn't be worth cracking, only US companies released good games. Why you would want to play Giana Sisters when you could play Spelunker is beyond me. And that Barbarian game from Palace is just a ripoff of the vastly superior game Death Sword from Epyx.
Also, Compunet did not exist and they certainly did not do demos independently of the cracking scene. The cracking scene is the real scene, but only until the point where I stopped being a part of it, because after that it like died, man. Now allow me drop some names to show that I was leet back then and thus have a right to poop on your so called "scene".
The scene died in 1988. History ended in 1988. I WAS THERE MAN! OMFG! The Berlin wall is still there and Ronald Reagan is going to save your butts from communism! YOUR MOTHERS WERE HAMSTERS AND YOUR FATHERS SMELLED OF LLAMASOFT GAMES, BITCHES!
All this, of course, translates to one simple thing; I need a hug. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Vanja : ROTFLMAO!!!
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
@Vanja: I can still hear the "phiioonnggggg" from the arrow hitting the bullseye. Some of the best answares ever... :-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: @Vanja: I can still hear the "phiioonnggggg" from the arrow hitting the bullseye. Some of the best answares ever... :-)
Oh, the answer rocks alright, but alas, I don't think it matters: people like Adam will never understand that the scene didn't die when they left. No matter how much evidence you have that it didn't.
Also, it kind of occurred to me that it's always somebody from the states who has this outlook on our scene. Dropping in, almost demanding respect for stuff he or his peers did way back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, and then leaving again if it doesn't happen, we've seen it many times before.
I say: it's about time some European dude from the early scene comes by and does the same .. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL GODDAMIT! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: Oh, the answer rocks alright, but alas, I don't think it matters: people like Adam will never understand that the scene didn't die when they left. No matter how much evidence you have that it didn't.
Also, it kind of occurred to me that it's always somebody from the states who has this outlook on our scene. Dropping in, almost demanding respect for stuff he or his peers did way back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, and then leaving again if it doesn't happen, we've seen it many times before.
I say: it's about time some European dude from the early scene comes by and does the same .. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL GODDAMIT!
You forgot the past debates with e.g. Radar.
Vanja, excellent style and humour ;-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: You forgot the past debates with e.g. Radar.
Vanja, excellent style and humour ;-)
That's different, Radar was never part of the original scene, he was just delusional :) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote: Oh, the answer rocks alright, but alas, I don't think it matters: people like Adam will never understand that the scene didn't die when they left. No matter how much evidence you have that it didn't.
Also, it kind of occurred to me that it's always somebody from the states who has this outlook on our scene. Dropping in, almost demanding respect for stuff he or his peers did way back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, and then leaving again if it doesn't happen, we've seen it many times before.
I say: it's about time some European dude from the early scene comes by and does the same .. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL GODDAMIT!
Dude, what have you been smoking. There WERE no early European sceners, all you liberal pinko euros had tapedrives instead of diskdrives until Ronald liberated your continent from Soviet rule, just like we saved your asses in WW2 *and* WW1 *and* Iraq, OMFG. DAMN RIGHT, SHOW ME SOME RESPECT, BITCH |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Dude, what have you been smoking. There WERE no early European sceners, all you liberal pinko euros had tapedrives instead of diskdrives until Ronald liberated your continent from Soviet rule, just like we saved your asses in WW2 *and* WW1 *and* Iraq, OMFG. DAMN RIGHT, SHOW ME SOME RESPECT, BITCH
....
I stand corrected :Z |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
<3 |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
I guess Vanja has already expressed what most of us euro/demo sceners feel.
I'll just add that no matter how you put it - I really can't see how you can fail to see the importance of Crest?
They have released quality demos for almost 20 YEARS!
ESI was active for what, a couple of years? Without the demoscene the C64 would have been dead by 1991. So when you compare:
A) Pioneer cracking group. Active for a couple of years.
B) Quality demo group, helping keeping the scene alive for TWENTY years.
Atleast to me it's clear that B is the greater accomplishment and therefore deserving of the first spot. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: Oh, the answer rocks alright, but alas, I don't think it matters: people like Adam will never understand that the scene didn't die when they left. No matter how much evidence you have that it didn't.
Also, it kind of occurred to me that it's always somebody from the states who has this outlook on our scene. Dropping in, almost demanding respect for stuff he or his peers did way back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, and then leaving again if it doesn't happen, we've seen it many times before.
I say: it's about time some European dude from the early scene comes by and does the same .. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL GODDAMIT!
DUD3 WUT HAEV U BEN SMOKNG!11!111!! WTF THEIR WAR3 NO EARLEY AUROP3AN SCEN3RS AL U LIEBRAL PINKO EUROS HAD TAEPDRIEVS INSTEAD OF DISKDRIEVS UNTIL RONALD LIEBRAETD UR CONTIENNT FROM SOVEIT RULE JUST LIEK WE SAEVD UR ASES IN W2 *AND* W1 *AND* IRAQ OMFG!1!!! OMG WTF DMN RIGHT SHOW ME SOM3 RASP3CT BITCH |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Considering losing my CSDB moderator virginity by closing of this topic. Hm... ;-) Tempting. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Considering losing my CSDB moderator virginity by closing of this topic. Hm... ;-) Tempting.
Too early to close.
Just wait for Adam The Axe's response :P |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Plus, why would you want to close this? Seriously, there's always a chance somebody comes along with an interesting view on this interesting topic. Lots have already been made, always room for more ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: Too early to close.
Just wait for Adam The Axe's response :P
everyone RUN ! :D |
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The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
Hmmm.... Frailty movie ? |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
Holy shit! The ultimate Crack Tool!!! :-) |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
Quote: Plus, why would you want to close this? Seriously, there's always a chance somebody comes along with an interesting view on this interesting topic. Lots have already been made, always room for more ;)
:) maybe there should be a Huge link on the front page of csdb... something like "Click here if you left the scene more than 10 years ago". Then let Vanja right an introductory article for that link. Would it save us from this repeating pattern? |
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Adam The Axe
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 6 |
Just like old times :)
WTF is a demo good for? LOL
Vanja 20 years ago I would be recruiting you for a good rag, very nice.
Before my next rant, let me say this, you are wrong Shadow, if it wasn't for piracy, the C64 would have died. This is the difference between what happened before 1988 and after. We were pirates, we did illegal things with phones, we harrassed people relentlessly, we ran BBS's and we passed along software, illegaly. Just like the little Vic20, timex and those pieces of crap machines that came out of europe, the C64 would never had made it past 1986. Actually, piracy is good for software, people play and go buy, even today.
I am not here to separate or ridicule what has been done with the C64 but give a little history to what happened before 1988 or 1989. You all made the C64 survive way past what it should have but we made it last as a long as it did.
You made it last but the software companys ran off and left you.
So, if you wish to make fun, it's okay, but do not distort the true past, the people you hail are phonys to what actually happened and how it came about. If this does not matter to you, then stop reading and go play with your demo.
I had many stories that are amusing to some and recollections to others. I was not the scene, I was a criminal, pirate and anarchist in the scene.
I came here looking for some of my old friends and I see all this stuff written in your database that could be updated but I see you want to fight and be judgemental about what I say. So, to end all this good chatter, I leave you to your on imagination of what really happened before you came a long and let you worship your demos. I can see why none of the other oldtimers wish to have any part of this. To those here that were from the real scene, I wish you a longer life and long live rock and roll.
/dam the /axe USSPE |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
the scene does continously exist since the early 80s, who are you to slice up history to real and unreal scene ? how do you expect a friendly attitude, when you are attacking on us like that?
Speaking for myself I'd love to read about your experience with how you saw the scene, the stories, etc. |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
What you totaly ignore is that many of the guys from the time you discribe is still around, this board even. So what do you say about thouse? That we have dreamt the whole thing? You must try to understand that your ignorant belive that you posses the obsolete truth here is most annoying and dissrespectful towards most of us hanging around here. Like Vanja said, USA isnt the center of the world. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
*plop*
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quoting The Dark JudgeThat's different, Radar was never part of the original scene, he was just delusional :)
I really don't see much difference between delusional ex-scener and delusional non-scener. (not to speak about delusional sceners)
I should have closed this thread when there was chance. Welcome in the desert of misunderstanding.
Vanja: Your parody still perfectly fits ;-)
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Roman, think twice, there was absolutely no reason to close this thread. forums are for arguing, and not for a friendly gay party :) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Oh noes, I scared it away :( I'm sorries, I didn't means to!
Adam, seriously, when you say stuff like you did in your first post...and some of your later statements too..."this group did more for C64 than any group, ever" - thems fighting words right there, mister. You might know the first 5-6 years of the C64 scene, primarily in the US, but the AGGRESSION and IGNORANCE you showed in some of your posts does nothing for your cause and you had *better* expect to get ragged on for voicing your opinions in the way you did. It amazes me how many people think the scene died when (because?) they left it. How terribly arrogant. You, sir, do not OWN the TRUTH as to what the scene is or was. If you chose to stick around and continue telling YOUR side of the story that would be GREAT, but if you expect us to sit by your feet and listen patiently and without interrupting as you EDUCATE us about the Truth then yeah, you're probably better off sticking your tail between your legs and leaving because that's not going to happen.
/meanmaid |
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SECRET MAN
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 336 |
Quote: Oh noes, I scared it away :( I'm sorries, I didn't means to!
Adam, seriously, when you say stuff like you did in your first post...and some of your later statements too..."this group did more for C64 than any group, ever" - thems fighting words right there, mister. You might know the first 5-6 years of the C64 scene, primarily in the US, but the AGGRESSION and IGNORANCE you showed in some of your posts does nothing for your cause and you had *better* expect to get ragged on for voicing your opinions in the way you did. It amazes me how many people think the scene died when (because?) they left it. How terribly arrogant. You, sir, do not OWN the TRUTH as to what the scene is or was. If you chose to stick around and continue telling YOUR side of the story that would be GREAT, but if you expect us to sit by your feet and listen patiently and without interrupting as you EDUCATE us about the Truth then yeah, you're probably better off sticking your tail between your legs and leaving because that's not going to happen.
/meanmaid
I like you,if you are aggressive :-) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote: I like you,if you are aggressive :-)
Eww, why does that make me feel this sudden urge to take a shower.
*goes back to handing out hugs and cookies* |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
OMG!?!?! The scene is dead?!?!?! I thought I joined it 2005 \D:/ Also what's with X06, did I just dream that stuff?
@Adam: lol? |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
thanks vanja, you still rule. And your the only one to pick up on MY sarcasm in this thread :D
This is the old pal vs ntsc war.
Both scene's began around the same time, on both scene's. That's a fact.
Adam: the software didn't dry up until 1996 fyi.
most people just moved on to amiga in the late 80's. meh.
*flush*
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
What a bunch of whiners...
Who cares?
I can understand Adam's original statement, I can understand the current generation's statement. What's the problem?
Moving along... |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
Quote: thanks vanja, you still rule. And your the only one to pick up on MY sarcasm in this thread :D
This is the old pal vs ntsc war.
Both scene's began around the same time, on both scene's. That's a fact.
Adam: the software didn't dry up until 1996 fyi.
most people just moved on to amiga in the late 80's. meh.
*flush*
Mmmmm...what he just said. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Mmmmm...what he just said.
Yeah, what Fungus and vanja said.
And indeed, no reason to close this thread as it is still a 'healthy' discussion.
It doesn't even comes close to the things we witnessed here in the past (which is a good thing).
*goes back sitting on the reading bench* |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
Quote:I should have closed this thread when there was chance.
I'm glad you didn't, because there is nothing in this thread that would justify closing it.
edit: err yes, what scout said (and oswald) |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
"And that Barbarian game from Palace is just a ripoff of the vastly superior game Death Sword from Epyx."
bahahaha, I literally almost pissed my pants :)
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
pants? hmmm, sitting in my underwear, drinking pepsi ... and having a good time following everbodies arguments. I'm not quite sure, but ain't that part of THE SCENE? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i can't help, but after reading the first post i immediatly had to think of a certain someone we know as WDR.
then i read vanjas reply and it saved my day. <3
what a weirdo argument really :)
funny enough, i left the scene in '89 for similar reasons. and when some of my old scene friends got me hooked again in '95 i hated myself for having missed probably the most interisting period in the scene ever. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
The Scene is dead.
And boy, it feels good to be a necrophile! |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
*prepares for a flamewar*
okay, as the youngest person in the scene (born 1990), and joining the scene in 2006, I must say that I really don't give a shit about cracks. _IF_ I were to vote for a crack, it'd be more voting for the intro. and in that case, ESI has a fucking boring intro. Same goes for Triad (they do cool stuff now though, that makes up for it).
Yes, I know I wasn't there back then. I really, really, really wish I was, but the fact is I wasn't. I know you are all going to bitch now about how important all these groups where back in the day, but for me, a scrolltext and a crappy picture of an eagle that every 3 year old could have done better just isn't really interesting. Atleast Fairlight did something with raster effects, and they use MUSIC while others are just silent, or even worse, the "OMG-WE-ARE-TOO-LAME-TO-PUT-IN-A-TUNE" sawtooth wave sound or however the fuck you want to call it.
Now I'm not saying like "OMG MUZAK R TEH IMPOARTNAT LOLOLOL!!!1", but it DOES make something a bit more worth to watch at, Though I'll give an exception if the intro just has cool effects, but I see this rarely.
*hides*
------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Knoeki, I agree with you: you must rank something based on your personal preference, and not that of the rest of the scene.
Also, if I would rate for example a demo from 1988 these days I would compare it to the current batch of demos. If it would stand the test of time it would get a high score, otherwise it wouldn't. IMHO that's the way it should be done. Fuck history ;) |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
It is like so often..
Different people have different points of view..
Sometimes the point of view is based on feelings, age,
knowledge, whatever..
I remember that mostly ESI had stuff which was
without bugs as we were pupils. And ESI had it as first.
It wasn't the eagle before the intro, it was the stuff we
liked to see. :)
Then it changed and the intro became
an art of the production because the stuff was more and more low budget..
So in my eyes every time has their heroes..
The charts based on people which vote today.
Some people share my thoughts about the music scene
and the c-64 scene. As you can see something which works like in the other scene..
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Blah, it's so qazi (kindly refer to lemon64) to *hide*
Anyway Knoeki, I don't question your opinion, but just out of interest .. do you have no interest in c64 games, or do you simply take their availability for granted? |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
Quote: Blah, it's so qazi (kindly refer to lemon64) to *hide*
Anyway Knoeki, I don't question your opinion, but just out of interest .. do you have no interest in c64 games, or do you simply take their availability for granted?
for the biggest part, no, I don't have too much intrest in c64 games. there's some nice games out there, some with great concepts, but imho most games are pure crap. Now, part of this is because of lazy/crappy coders, part because I just can't play most games with a joystick... I prefer a joypad really.
------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting knoekiI just can't play most games with a joystick... I prefer a joypad really.
Ah, the young generation. No appreciation for the weapons of the past. Joypads, bah.
If you haven't played Decathlon with a joystick, you are not considered worthy.
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Quote: Quoting knoekiI just can't play most games with a joystick... I prefer a joypad really.
Ah, the young generation. No appreciation for the weapons of the past. Joypads, bah.
If you haven't played Decathlon with a joystick, you are not considered worthy.
Competition pro rules all others broke down..
There is a trick you can only do with the competition pro
in my eyes at the 100m qualifications.
Yes, the "NEW" YOUNG GENERATION... :(
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
actually for decathlon and similar games less "tight" joysticks like the quickshots can be used much better (holding the joystick upside down at its base and shaking that, instead of the other way around). |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I remember that trick :-D |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
Quote: *prepares for a flamewar*
okay, as the youngest person in the scene (born 1990), and joining the scene in 2006, I must say that I really don't give a shit about cracks. _IF_ I were to vote for a crack, it'd be more voting for the intro. and in that case, ESI has a fucking boring intro. Same goes for Triad (they do cool stuff now though, that makes up for it).
Yes, I know I wasn't there back then. I really, really, really wish I was, but the fact is I wasn't. I know you are all going to bitch now about how important all these groups where back in the day, but for me, a scrolltext and a crappy picture of an eagle that every 3 year old could have done better just isn't really interesting. Atleast Fairlight did something with raster effects, and they use MUSIC while others are just silent, or even worse, the "OMG-WE-ARE-TOO-LAME-TO-PUT-IN-A-TUNE" sawtooth wave sound or however the fuck you want to call it.
Now I'm not saying like "OMG MUZAK R TEH IMPOARTNAT LOLOLOL!!!1", but it DOES make something a bit more worth to watch at, Though I'll give an exception if the intro just has cool effects, but I see this rarely.
*hides*
------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
Well in the past size mattered! Fastest and smallest cracks was the shit, so many times the intro code was squized down to a minimum. Thats for the PAL-scene, the NTSC-scene didnt care for size at all. Dispite of the small size of the intro many groups did some realy great intros in no size at all; S451,TRIAD,Zetrex comes to mind here. So when you hear the great ol' sawtooth "wwwwoooooaaammmmm", think "size realy matter"! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946 |
Omega Man used whoaams too. Boy, could he code... |
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Pol Pot
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 24 |
ESI was great not just because they put out so many quality cracks but because they showed what a group should be like and also the released EagleTerm. For years all of us - and I mean ALL of us - in the scene used one version of EagleTerm or another. And if we didn't, we used a terminal program directly ripped off of EagleTerm.
There were other pirate groups who did harder cracks, had better intros, better BBS and distribution schemes, but ESI was and is the best of all time.
Strangely, I do not believe I ever met a member of ESI.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
mmmh interisting, i've never heard about "Eagle Term" at all, pretty much everyone used "CCGMS" around here.... then ofcourse, i never called a board until the late 80s - but i DID have lots and lots of the really old stuff..mmh *shrug* someone upload it :) |
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SECRET MAN
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 336 |
I called the boards since 1987,but i used CCGMS.I never heard of Eagle Term.Or do you mean Nova Term....
Dave:Whats up with all the wares,which all the people uploaded?
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Pol Pot
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 24 |
I still have lots of 1541's with games on them. I am not sure what to do with them, I am not sure how many work these days. Perhaps I should donate them to the scene somehow.
It has been years since I tried any of them. I did, however, give all my games that I could muster to someone about a decade ago I believe...I can't remember who it was at the moment but he was collecting as many warez as he could get his hands on.
When I first started calling BBS's in 1984 EagleTerm 3.0 had just been released. Punter had just been released as 8-bit, the old version being 7-bit. This enabled us to trade faster and really sped things up for the pirate scene. After UnBlitz! was finally perfected and EagleTerm was released in BASIC (along with a bunch of other stuff) it underwent a lot of changes. I do not remember which version I eventually used but I remember that version 7.0 modified by Mr. CBM (Ed, the guy who later stole the nick Mutant-X and was working with the feds) had the blue box tones and so on built in. Back then in Ohio we could still seize trunks with EagleTerm.
My first BBS ran on a C-1600 non-auto-answer modem. I'd answer for guys like Silicon Pirate, DosBuster or Mutant-X, say "Hi!" then type "ATO" to originate a carrier. Eventually I got a 1650 and it was heaven cause it was auto-answer.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
running a bbs with a non auto answering modem... ODD =D
i remember back in the 80s ppl made crazy mechanical solutions to take the phone off hook when it rang...hehe, fun :)
but yes, please DO give these disks to someone who can transfer them.... especially the very early stuff (first half of the 80s) is kinda underrepresented in most archives. |
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Pol Pot
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 24 |
Incidentally, I may still have a copy or two of EagleTerm on a terminal or utility disk somewhere. I don't have a c64 hooked up at the moment so I can't say for sure. At one point I had about 6 or 7 versions on disk but most were badly modified so I didn't use them.
Novaterm was nice, I bought a copy and got to know the author a bit. CCGMS I remember but not specifically. It may, and I emphasize that I don't know for sure at the moment, but CCGMS may have been based on EagleTerm.
There were many, many spin-offs of EagleTerm after it was deblitzed and everyone wanted their own, more elite version out there. Problem was that not everyone was a competent enough coder to release a good product so I tended to stay with the originals. I believe EagleTerm 5.1 or 6.0 is what I last used before moving on to a new terminal.
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SECRET MAN
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 336 |
Quote: I still have lots of 1541's with games on them. I am not sure what to do with them, I am not sure how many work these days. Perhaps I should donate them to the scene somehow.
It has been years since I tried any of them. I did, however, give all my games that I could muster to someone about a decade ago I believe...I can't remember who it was at the moment but he was collecting as many warez as he could get his hands on.
When I first started calling BBS's in 1984 EagleTerm 3.0 had just been released. Punter had just been released as 8-bit, the old version being 7-bit. This enabled us to trade faster and really sped things up for the pirate scene. After UnBlitz! was finally perfected and EagleTerm was released in BASIC (along with a bunch of other stuff) it underwent a lot of changes. I do not remember which version I eventually used but I remember that version 7.0 modified by Mr. CBM (Ed, the guy who later stole the nick Mutant-X and was working with the feds) had the blue box tones and so on built in. Back then in Ohio we could still seize trunks with EagleTerm.
My first BBS ran on a C-1600 non-auto-answer modem. I'd answer for guys like Silicon Pirate, DosBuster or Mutant-X, say "Hi!" then type "ATO" to originate a carrier. Eventually I got a 1650 and it was heaven cause it was auto-answer.
The word "Donate" is the same like music in our ears.You would make the rest of da scene happy.
We must save the history
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
"...I must say that I really don't give a shit about cracks..."
OMG Knoek.. As nice as it to see fresh blood in the scene, many of us could tell you stories for hours and hopefully change your views on cracks (screw the games, thats not the point)..
For me personally I was hooked on the C64 the first time I saw a game in 86 or 87.. the secret handles, the realization that there was a secret community out there somewhere, atleast a year before I finally found my way into the scene I even dreamt about it at night.
Demos to me are mostly fun, time filling on a rainy day and at times even amazing. I guess it is fair to say the demo coding pushed the C64 way beyond its original technical limits in tenfold, but for me thats like a bonus, a very very positive spin-off if you will from the original reasons the scene started.. it certainly is not my personal core, that actually isnt even cracks its the sceners ;)
Recently (a few months ago) I tried explaining my girlfriend about the C64, the scene, etc. When I realized a few hours later that I had been enthusiastically talking about it for hours and she was actually interested like a child listening to stories at a campfire.. Hey I felt so proud of being able to tell someone about the time when mostly teenage children worked together as true pirates ;)
People actually pay serious money to find similar experiences in secondlife.com to escape from reality, we fought and took risks for an experience to was far better.. I will never regret breaking rules and taking risks, it was all worth it for me!
To me cracks was were everything started.. they gave me a quest to look for the scene, from the dataset based c64 of best friend next door, to my own c64, to local friends, to local copy party, to a weird collection of tekst called a diskmag, to a few addies, to trial membership, to the scene, and so on.. Actually my biggest C64 disappointment and regret even today is that I have never been able to release a firstrelease myself. I was a slow starter and only had the chance to do so once. At point I was still learning to understand other peoples code in very early stages.. I simply did not understand the working of a diskloader and someone else released it a week or two later.
My old teammate and close friend DMI once pointed me to a single slogan, and I am actually pissed that I can not remember the source (maybe someone else knows it).
Copy me, I want to travel That says so much with only just a few words!
Personally I am very interested in reading anything on the C64 scene prior to 1988, I enjoy every memory and recollection! Granted it takes a bit of reading between the lines of some boasts and at times hard to follow, but it still has the good old electricity that intrigued me in the past.
To all the oldtimers out there.. keep those stories coming please!
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Recently (a few months ago) I tried explaining my girlfriend about the C64, the scene, etc. When I realized a few hours later that I had been enthusiastically talking about it for hours and she was actually interested like a child listening to stories at a campfire.. Hey I felt so proud of being able to tell someone about the time when mostly teenage children worked together as true pirates ;)
People actually pay serious money to find similar experiences in secondlife.com to escape from reality, we fought and took risks for an experience to was far better.. I will never regret breaking rules and taking risks, it was all worth it for me!
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tried this too.. got laughed at and called a lazy thrillseeking nerd :)
But yeah, great times explaining to Australia Post how a blonde haired kid would have a lebanese name like fadi (fah-dee). Swapping warez on the bus on the way home was also very cool, not to mention showing porno magazines out the back window of the bus :)
PROUD CRACKER THANKS TO FAST HACK EM'S HEX EDITORZZZZZ |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
sorry about my earlier posts. I wasn't in a good mood, couldn't find the right words. disregard it please.
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Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/misc/zomgwtfbbq/ |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@Knoekie:
Grin, why be sorry mate? You are entitled to your opinion and you have good ground for it too, and last but not least Im quite sure theres enough people agreeing with you actually!
I just wanted to give you an insight why cracks/cracking are important to some sceners, or at least why they ment to me ;)
@Fade
Grin.. still looking for a way to force people to enjoy sid musics though.. not quite there yet on that department.. hehe
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
Bordeaux: The only way to get your non-computer friends to listen to c64-music is to play some of the wonderful remixes out there and THEN throw in the original sid-version. Lure them into at trap. ;-) What I have experince is that non-computer peoples and PC freaks tend to be very impressed when I show them som fullscreen graphics from Bob, Dokk, Leon and others. THEN they start to understand whats being achieved here. Specs of the c64 vs what they see on the screen so to speak. I have already given up trying to explain what we did back then. Either folx just are interesting in the illigal parts carding,cracking cheating with stamps and so on or they just think we where some geekclub alienating us from the rest of the world. Maby the latter isnt such bad way of seeing it! ;-) |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
Icon :) Hehe.. yeah tried that too with good remixes, however the obvious one there is hey, the people you admire moved on to real sounds, why dont you.. grin, I cant blame them really.
Well hey isnt that actually the whole point here.. opinions?
When being a young scener I always regretted being a few years to young to have missed the 86-88 scene times more hands on and only viewing from the sidelines.. years later realizing that sid-wise I was blessed, perfect timing to hear sid after sid as a new tune that still are in my favorites even today. (imho there are very few sids that appeal to me prior to 1988 and I do not like most acclaimed classics at all). Funny how I changed views like that..
Sigh, actually come to think of it, I never even thought there would be a day that I would miss diskmagazines.. we were swamped with them, but even that time has come now, damnit I even miss the ones I hated (some I received 30-40 times per month).
So all of you just keep filling that void for me.. this forum actually is a great replaced ;)
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