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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
blue wins, moderators must improve, baracuda out
I understand that the fresh moderation team needs to find its way around how to properly moderate here, so mistakes are made and that's fine.
However, I'm getting a bit tired of the trigger happy thread-closers, especially when the first bans *must* be discussed properly to find out if the correct course of action was taken or not and if the majority agrees with the action taken.
It's starting to look like moderator X gets tired of explaining things, so he closes a thread where a certain ban *should* be explained. Nothing in the now closed thread was out of line and an honest request for more info, and after *finally* giving full info you close it immediately. I think that's completely wrong.
If you guys keep this up, more ppl will leave. |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
150 posts in a thread regarding the Baracuda in the Moderators area aswell as constant bitching about Baracuda on Irc, in Msgs, in PMs and such should be enough? :)
We removed him upon many users request - Closing the thread Bordaux started lead him to actually talk to us on IRC instead and it did seem fine with him.
Should we reopen the thread, even since Baracuda is gone? What more would you like to discuss? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Sorry Burglar but I disagree. Actually this is the first time I'm really satisfied with the moderation at CSDb. A lot of crap gets cleaned up fastly... |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
Agreed!
Myself having just had a full and open discussion I am happy that Creamd took the time to explain some things to me, for that my thanks.. at least I have a more satisfied feeling now and I strongly urge you guys just to state such things publicly.
Personally however I still do not agree the decision, but I seem to be a minority there, so for now I will not debate it further unless more people feel the same and/or as long as this post is open (thus not opening the topic again myself).
I am however also unhappy with the fact that my previous post was closed for no apparent reason as I feel that despite some harsh words, I did nothing wrong, however closing the post leaves absolutely no room for debate at all here.
Playing the devils advocate, it could even be reason for just more spam in the system.
You guys already tend to have a strong non-scene related attitude towards new users to the database (eg. Remarks pointing towards lemons approach and such / new users that left the scene prior to its peaking activity age) that I strongly feel that this and follow-up actions will only cause more harm then good and result in parts of history being lost if more and more of us simply refuse to share their hard work and or contents.
I for one do not feel the need for guardians or cops or however you would like to see a mod, but if the majority of people want.. then fine.. but let me protest in an open environment if I feel that you guys are not doing the best noticeable job.
Thanks
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
we discussed it on irc and things are more clear now. no point in reopening the other thread, as most important stuff was already said.
also, I never wanted to argue about baracuda being banned, cause I totally agree with it. |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
Quote: we discussed it on irc and things are more clear now. no point in reopening the other thread, as most important stuff was already said.
also, I never wanted to argue about baracuda being banned, cause I totally agree with it.
Agreed to no need to re-open. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I can only say I agree fully with the actions taken by the moderators, though I was never involved directly in the Baracuda case. One less troll and thread saboteur around. Now it'll perhaps be possible to read the forum once again.
The moderators should only have to explain their actions when their reasons aren't obvious, i.e. when they ban someone who isn't acting like a complete and utter tool. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i have to totally agree with the topic :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
One more thing, as I am a bit interested in the techical side of the bans...
I assume it's IP based. And if so, isn't it just too easy to find a anonymous proxy and login with a different username?
Furthermore, if it's IP based and if an IP-range is banned, I'm wondering how it is handled when some people come from the same IP-range (e.g. Dafunk and I)? |
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
IP Ranges ??? Either you are weird or i am too dumb to understand you. Not the ip range or number got banned but the login of Baracuda. So no need of anonymous proxys. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: IP Ranges ??? Either you are weird or i am too dumb to understand you. Not the ip range or number got banned but the login of Baracuda. So no need of anonymous proxys.
Well I don't know at all, that's why I'm asking. I recall someone mentioning the IP-ban in an older thread but it might be I'm wrong or don't remember right...
So if only the account is closed, what holds back a banned person from opening another user and continue with the trolling? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:So if only the account is closed, what holds back a banned person from opening another user and continue with the trolling?
new accounts are manually verified (just try creating a fake account for yourself and see how far you are getting with that *grins*) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: Quote:So if only the account is closed, what holds back a banned person from opening another user and continue with the trolling?
new accounts are manually verified (just try creating a fake account for yourself and see how far you are getting with that *grins*)
I already have one :)
Used it only for a while a really long time ago when I forgot my password and thought it will be easier to open a new account than to bug Perff to reset/resend it. Then I accidentally run into a note with my pass and got back to this one. So it's _that_ easy :) |
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
As you said it. You used/created your accound a long time ago. Things can change like they did. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Thank you gentlemen, my curiosity is more than satisfied! :) |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
Well.. there is one thing that really does worry me a lot, I do not want to start a discussion here, but maybe take 5 seconds to think of it from my point of view before you think I am just bitching here;
This forum is scene related.. granted, we are a extremely mixed people, mostly of a generation of kids that thrived on either the cracking or demo scene. At least, these two parts of our scene are either the only side most of you like to acknowledge or sometimes even the only two parts of the scene that you know.
Have you ever stopped to realize that there are many sub-scenes running in the meantime? And/or that these scenes did not always follow the exact rules of our cracking or demo scene?
I can give a very good example here, take the german paper magazine Computer Flohmarkt.
It is just one of the very many entry points that led people into our beloved scene.
My personal opinion aside about this niche part of our scene (I simply did not like it in the past), I simply can not refuse that it was not part of our scene and I can not refuse that a lot of current sceners have roots there.
All I care about is protecting our history as at least do many of you that disagree with me on other points, but Ive seen it happen now several times; the general attitude of this forum is becoming more and more aggressive towards people that do not fall into the major categories here and/or do not follow standard protocol.. Ok, so we do not want this place to become lemonish apparently fine, at least then point people in that direction kindly and/or if someone does have history and files to add to our database respect that these people sometimes can fall outside the usual majority opinion and take the good with the bad.
Seriously, if you were non c64 related.. how would you think of a 30+ year old spending his precious spare-time collecting and restoring 20 year old pieces of software? These people must be nuts! ;) and guess what.. they mostly are strange and sometimes do not have the best social skills.
Sorry, but in my opinion the whole barracuda issue is such a perfect example of mixed arrogance and pride from both sides of the line, that in real life it could have been solved with a single damn telephone call.. I just wish I had caught onto it sooner as I know a lot of the people involved, I am sure I could have settled it easily, so I blame myself for not taking action sooner :(
As for the need to explain the ban being obvious or not (just reacting on Radiantx message) sorry, but this being more or less a precedent for future possible future actions I also wanted to know the exact why and how since this mod-team is young and in learning. I hope you can understand that as much as I understand why it for you was obvious.
Cheers
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SECRET MAN
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 336 |
Seriously, if you were non c64 related.. how would you think of a 30+ year old spending his precious spare-time collecting and restoring 20 year old pieces of software? These people must be nuts! ;) and guess what.. they mostly are strange and sometimes do not have the best social skills.
Thats exactly the words of my wife :-) Then we are all nuts,or ? |
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
Yeah but in the Baracuda case: It is tiring to discuss and discuss and explane and explane and the opposite (Baracuda) doesn't get or doesn't want to get the point. It is also tiring if some always compares peaches with apples. Baracuda is one of the most strangest guys I know and it seems to me that he has nothing else than the scene and so this ban may have hit him hard but most of us coudn't live with him no more. He had his chances but replied everytime with his know-it-all kind. It got too boring and he didn't saw the point coming to just stop the discussion and live with the way the csdb gets run. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
During the 5+ years of the existence of CSDb I have never ever experienced any direct, unfounded negative approach to newbies or new users on the portal. Bordeaux, please give us some examples, I'm very interested to see who else was attacked by the big sleazy mass of proud CSDb oldies. Maybe we're visiting two different CSDbs, but 99% of the people here were always very friendly with newbies who tried to cope up with the C64 scene ( == weren't trolling, messing up with the db, leaving truly idiotic comments just for the sake of it, etc, etc), wether they were producing something or just hanging around the site. I could name a huge bunch of "new faces" who would probably tell you the same so frankly, I'm totally missing what are you talking about...
Edit: as for Baracuda, even the most profane person could notice that he has some psychological issues to solve. No sane person acts like him unwittingly... |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
Bordeux: You seem to think Baracuda was banned becasue he had different oppinions than the majority of CSDB. I think he was banned because of the way he reflected his difference of oppinion by enldessly arguing seemingly without the intention of really reaching a consensus(or finding the truth) but with the intention of keeping the argument going (or maybe winning the argument). This very behaviour is called "trolling" everywhere. He additionally performed operations on the data that he was repeatedly told not to do. This kind of behavior maps to "arguing uncompromisingly and endlessly" in say a "real world" town hall etc. and is not tolarated there too
It is perfectly OK to have a different oppinion, but it is not OK turn that into a freaking roadblocker in every thread in a web forum
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@The communist
Fair enough reaction, thanks, but still discussions are just opinions.
I could totally agree with account restriction and locking of files as a measure (although I still dont agree with who owns a file but thats something else) that was fair enough -> preservation is a good reason to lock files.
I however find it hard to swallow that someone is unable to discuss or complain, even if it would be the most stubborn bloke in the world, just because what he says goes against your reasoning.
I saw no heavy cursing or offending from his side.. yes, maybe slight retaliation maybe.. come on, he showed me some of his pms actually.. I would have hit evil mode after only a few of them, wouldnt you?
I guess this view of mine has more to do with general life opinions in matters of freedom of speech, lets face it.. that will always be a discussion as far as humans live :( So whats done is done, I just did not want this to go by unnoticed since I goes against many of my beliefs.
@jailbird
Ill gladly go through the entire forum if I need to, although I hope I do not have to for the time it will cost me, lets call it fair enough if I name a few which come to mind?
c64 video's
Is the first example I ran across whilst just searching (simply because its in the top of c64 productions). Now as an example please lets not discuss whether people are right or wrong in that post, its an example of how easy this place can seem to be unfriendly to newcomers;
Ill take two quotes from Smila the original poster;
..i think i have to reply to this. I MADE A MISTAKE . jesus.
it was my first post here and iam sorry for getting up your nose by posting in the wrong place
i know i posted in the wrong place. but maybe you should of directed me to the correct place to post. the new stuff you blokes do is great and i enjoy it all. to hoth and hollowman, i was trying to be nice!
Just look at that post and tell me honestly.. does this (even though it *might* be true) in any way look welcoming and appealing to newbies?
And Ill even make matter worse.. I seriously wonder who posted
Smila : don't forget that not all sceners are that unfriendly!!! Simply look for the friendly ones to communicate with
On which there was a reply from this newbie saying ..hooray to that!!.. finally feeling welcome?
Want to make a bet that I can name the person now marked as <none> who actually gave that user a friendly and welcome feeling which all of you neglected to deem as important?
To sum it up.. you might not need to agree with me, but please give me some credit that I am not imagining things here or that what I have to say is completely false. I just wanted some of you to think about actions and consequences to prevent things in the future, thats all.
@nightlord
As also mentioned to the communist thanks for your post.
File locking I can live with but yes, I do believe everyone has the right to voice their opinion just as it is your right to ignore it. The ignore all posts from this user button exists for this sole reason!!!
I find it an offence that several of you (might I ad, even some of the people I hold in high respect) here we not flamed for verbal abuse (posts simply removed) publicly. Had you seen some of those you might have understood some of his (re)actions a bit more. As said before I saw it too late and could have solved it.. my bad my conscience problem, not yours.
As for me, you wont find me trolling every thread, it is not my style, but I can understand people going to limits to stand up for what they believe in and I do not think that words or even a 1000 complaining or arguing post without profanity have ever harmed any of you here on this forum. Several pieces of text he showed me would potentially even hurt me to be honest.
cheers
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
tim, to me it just sounds like a 30+ dude posting who never got layed at all :P
fairly too much people seem to "upload" their rl-frustration to this site...
those who havent been l33t 20 years ago still cant cope with the fact that they are still not l33t 20 years later.
of course i myself took some negative actions on retards as they are just acting like nerd but you are right when you demand kind reactions to newbies...
to take the old "foreigner"-phrase to "this universe":
we are all newbies, in some genre...
f.e. the ever soooo hated pc-scene acts friendly to a guy calling himself "crest". he looks like a nerd but he is just a fan collection demos, doing some demoshow at breakpoint and people might think funny about him, but he always shows up as he feels fine on the parties. and we, that have the arrogance to call us some kind of "root-scene", cant even welcome someone who did videos influenced by the c64... someone who just wanted to share his/her love to this great piece of computer with us... thanx c64-scene for being just some piece of a rotten society...
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Whilst wondering how high is the self-esteem of someone who gets scared away by some humorous/sarcastic comments on a thread where the reason of the derisive reaction was quite appropriately explained afterwards, I see only one person in that topic who's viciously stirring the shit and trying to act as a really dramatic squire.
But yes, I get your point. Still, a lot of new faces showed up and stood on the scene in despite of all this what you're trying to stress out, so hopefully we aren't such an aggressive bunch of negative freaks after all, right? :) |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
Bordeux: I am not an admin here but my perspective is about the quality of content in csdb forums (which I find degraded in the last 3 years due to passive moderation). I see your point but I would like to point out two things:
1- "ignore posts from this user" button is pretty much useless in my oppinion. Because everyone ignores different users, and everyone sees a different thread. when a group of people trying to discuss something on a forum thread does not see the exact same set of text the integrity of the discussion gets jeopardized. If you ignore someone you still see the reactions others give to him etc. You give reactions and others do not know that you are missing some of the text they see. Thus these would degrade the quality of a discusion. I think it might even be argued that the ability to ignore a user should be removed but whatever.
2- 1000 messages without profanity (and without intellectual value as well) does not hurt anyone directly but does damage the quality of the forum. It degrades the "signal-to noise" ratio. It causes (and has caused in the past) some quality content creators to leave the forums and possibly keeps away potentially very prolific passers by. Even though it can not be proved, I think there is a correlation between how much activity there is in the scene and how well the communication channels of the scene are working. The diskmags and csdb are the main communication channels right now (and parties too, but they suffer from physical/economical/social constraints) and if these get clogged this I think does damage the scene in general.
2.5 Personally I think "profanity" is just a way some people use to make strong and well fitting statements. Therefore I do not care much about profanity but I do respect if others do. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Bordeaux: Let's repeat what I said to you and others who asked. We gave him chance after his first and biggest faux-pas when he was taking The Stock and it's releases as hostage. What was happening later is very well explained in short post (#20) by Nightlord. I reccomend to read it to everyone who doesn't understand what was happening.
We could maybe live with him pasting large chunks of the text from the poorly writen CSDB rules into the comments. We could maybe live with some of his more or less undecipherable but frequent remarks. We could maybe keep removing of rude reactions on his address that he provoked by trolling in the oneliners and forums. However, he copy pasted the text from "scenery" into the selected group's comments. That was the last drop. It was really uncalled for. Especially in the cases of groups that have active memebers maintining their entries here in the database. What I find even more stupid is that he again defended that as a right thing to do. It isn't right thing to do. First of all he didn't give credit to the dude who created scenery. Secondly, this database has completely different system of adding data to the entries. Not pasting the whole chunks of info into the comments.
Anway. It's a bit tiresome of explaining this all over again. It's maybe short time since moderator group is here, but we aren't some unexperienced irresponsible kids playing with heavy weapons. We consider our moves. We discuss things. And hesitate even. But there was over 130 posts in the moderator forum concerning Baracuda. Not to speak about private messages from mods. Baracuda was voted out by the majority of mods here. We had really good reasons for that even before this last incident. It had to be done, and we aren't happy about it.
I'm sure not.
roman
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Let me state that I'm all in line with what nightlord said. If the signal-to-noise ratio decreases to painful levels a lot of people (especially those with cramped real life schedules and few spare time) might decide to just shrug their shoulders and turn away, deciding to spend their precious spare time elsewhere. We shouldn't let trolls scare away the productive folks for the sake of democracy and friendliness.
I saw that happen over at comp.sys.cbm which was a damn interesting group to read about 5 years ago. Until some complete dumbnuts like Panks, Montchalin ruined it all due to non-moderation. A lot of people including me just took their hat as that group downright became a time waster to read and interesting posts were drowned in an ocean of mindfuck topics... Well, just my 2 bytes. |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@Dazing
Hello old friend ;) very nice to see your post.
Damnit.. I actually agree with you on the l33t or maybe better said being a success factor remark.
And ps, it was supposed to be our little secret that I never got laid :D
@Jailbird
Thanks for getting my point, I really appreciate it! And hey, of course we arent all that bad and luckily a lot of people indeed did find their way here. Were both happy there I think ;)
@Nightlord
1. Hmm, ok.. I had not looked at the ignore issue from that point of view (probably because I have not ignored anyone so far except for hitting the button by mistake once or twice) so I gave it some half hour to sink in. I surprisingly have no fitting answer here, where as to me it is not a problem to ignore someones posts, I do understand yours a bit better now.. so, thanks!
2. Hmm, yes again a very good point. All though CSDb Discussions seems to fit debating, it is not uncommon for forums (as well as many bbs in the past) to move all topics that endup in quarrels and debates to a central point to lighten up tension on the other areas of the forum.
Open question to the mods:
Is such a rule in place yet and or are you guys able to move posts to another thread?
If not, I suggest it, as it would be a very good way of making everyone happy except people who intentionally mess up or troll if you will.
Also I would find it a very reasonable ruling to kick someone out of CSDB who has been requested various times to keep arguments in the discussion zone, maybe an improvement we can all agree on? It ensures a more or less separate area for free speech/opinion and removes most trolling from the other parts of the forum, gives the mods a fair reason to act as guardians and best of all, makes it a more fair system.
2.5 well personally and outside of this discussion we think quite alike, but maybe if needed thats better talked over in a PM.
@CreaMD
I realize its getting tiresome, and so I do appreciate the time you took to explain things here and to me personal to talk things over. You now why its important to me and/or why I think it is also important for CSDB to have this well covered and for that I salute your efforts.
Please see my reaction to Nightlord and have a look at my open question; might be a very fit way of solving future problems?
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@steppe
darn just missed your post whilst typing.
indeed troublesome and point well taken! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: @Dazing
Hello old friend ;) very nice to see your post.
Damnit.. I actually agree with you on the l33t or maybe better said being a success factor remark.
And ps, it was supposed to be our little secret that I never got laid :D
@Jailbird
Thanks for getting my point, I really appreciate it! And hey, of course we arent all that bad and luckily a lot of people indeed did find their way here. Were both happy there I think ;)
@Nightlord
1. Hmm, ok.. I had not looked at the ignore issue from that point of view (probably because I have not ignored anyone so far except for hitting the button by mistake once or twice) so I gave it some half hour to sink in. I surprisingly have no fitting answer here, where as to me it is not a problem to ignore someones posts, I do understand yours a bit better now.. so, thanks!
2. Hmm, yes again a very good point. All though CSDb Discussions seems to fit debating, it is not uncommon for forums (as well as many bbs in the past) to move all topics that endup in quarrels and debates to a central point to lighten up tension on the other areas of the forum.
Open question to the mods:
Is such a rule in place yet and or are you guys able to move posts to another thread?
If not, I suggest it, as it would be a very good way of making everyone happy except people who intentionally mess up or troll if you will.
Also I would find it a very reasonable ruling to kick someone out of CSDB who has been requested various times to keep arguments in the discussion zone, maybe an improvement we can all agree on? It ensures a more or less separate area for free speech/opinion and removes most trolling from the other parts of the forum, gives the mods a fair reason to act as guardians and best of all, makes it a more fair system.
2.5 well personally and outside of this discussion we think quite alike, but maybe if needed thats better talked over in a PM.
@CreaMD
I realize its getting tiresome, and so I do appreciate the time you took to explain things here and to me personal to talk things over. You now why its important to me and/or why I think it is also important for CSDB to have this well covered and for that I salute your efforts.
Please see my reaction to Nightlord and have a look at my open question; might be a very fit way of solving future problems?
- there is no possibility to move posts to other thread
- I don't think that will help unless the "trash" or "off-topic" thread is excluded from latest forum posts announcer. And still I don't think it will change the situation because when someone "intentionally mess up or troll" even after warning, we won't keep ridiculing ourselves by moving all of his posts somewhere else just because there is such place.
- Moving of posts is used for cases of unintentional off-topic posting. It's useless in case of intentional trashing. Moderator's job here isn't just organising of forum, but also prevention. In case there is too much trash produced by someone, the best prevention is to ban the person. However harsh it sounds.
- Also I don't think it's possible to have separate areas of forum. It just doesn't work like that here. And most of all. We shouldn't interchange "free speech" for "freely speaking". Moderators don't censor ideas, but unwanted behaviour.
In reality you cannot accuse organisers of supressing of your right for free speech just because they didn't allow you to read your 30 minute speech and greet all your 1345 contacts upon receiving first prize in the gfx compo.
So exactly as you say. People are requested to keep behaving some way or keep their arguments in some place. So for example release comments or oneliners aren't best place for arguments and forum isn't best place to solve personal animosities that can be (should be) solved privately.
-----
As far as CSDB organisation is concerned. I think that rules should be rewritten once more with concentration on the main purpose of this site which is database of sceners, groups, events and releases. The database integrity, completeness and correctness of information entered here is above all clashes and personal concerns. Forums, oneliners, voting, charts are just helpers to achieve this purpose/goal.
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
The only area trolling posts should go into is a trashcan and then I would feel like Oscar the grouch if my job would be transfering those posts into it.
The Forum should be a place for free discussions, exchange of knowledge and information but not for e.g. wisenheimer rubbish which bores some users to death and makes misgiving others.
For sure everyone can have his own opinion but some of those opinions should be better kept secret as they could show the owner in a way he doesn't want to get seen. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
I'm happy with the moderator work, and I honestly think even this topic/similar topics should be closed. I'd like to see more topics about c64 stuff instead all of these voting and moderating whinings. |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
@Creamd
..Moderator's job here isn't just organising of forum, but also prevention..
Bare with me please one more post, I actually think we might agree here.
One place (CSDb Discussions maybe?) free for debate leaves room to point to other then that modding should becoming easier, simply warn a person once, twice, threetimes.. still not taking your debate to the right place, a weeks ban.. come back try again -> bam.. banned for life.
If that had been in place you would (and will in the future) have been able to kick deliberate announces even far sooner, right?
Its just an idea that I think would clean up a lot. I am sorry I didnt understand the general opinion sooner about trolling. Actually it was Nightlords post made me realize that the Ignore button is indeed totally useless! I do not need it, but I now understand why all the complaints at least better then before, so this is a very important change to my opinion actually!
Well, all I can say is that the system of separate discussion area really does work. You just need to look at our bbs history. Not only mods but also annoyed regular members will point people in that direction if (!) there is such a place to point to. Then come to think of it, no need to move anything there..
1. Clearly appoint a 'free' debate area
2. Write it into the rules
3. Warning 1, Warning 2, Warning 3
4. Kick or Kick-ban
Seems simple, much easier and yet fair to me, how about you?
@Oswald
Nearly done dude, sorry for annoying you, but please take into consideration that I too want a cleaner database otherwise I wouldnt take the time to offer ideas as well as complaints.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
B, ok :) |
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maestro
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 727 |
whats been happening while ive been away???
let me know |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
bush invaded iraq
the pope died
nothing major really
oh wait a minute, u haven't been away that long ;) |
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maestro
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 727 |
huh i thought id been in a very deep sleep there with bush raiding irag i was like wtf!!! ha ha |
