| |
d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
Paul Norman did Forbidden Forest?
Paul Norman
Paul Norman did Forbidden Forest why aint he given credit for this?... was he a scener?... |
|
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
no he wasnt a scener and forbidden forest was a commercial release |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
looks like an entry that is subject to deletion. i dont know any scene productions done by him atleast. |
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
But he was credited in a lot of scene releases so he shouldnt be deleted because the credits wouldn't be complete anymore. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
lots of credits arent complete for the same reason. (then again, we are mostly talking about ripped music here). you may call it a database flaw. not really a problem for musicians though, since the info can be added: add the proper sid to the entry, and the info wont get lost :)
BUT, in this specific case... he actually did contribute something to a scene production (the c64.com demo), which by the rules of csdb qualify him for having a profile :)
however that said, he should not be credited for "code" in a forbidden forest entry (because the credits should refer to who made the crack). |
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
well I see an inconsistency here:
1. if a well known musician is credited in 1 scene release (for 1 word in a scroll text for example) and his ripped music is used in several other productions then he is credited everywhere and the credits are complete.
2. however,if he isn't credited in that 1 scene production then he isn't credited in any other atall and the credits are incomplete.
it makes no sense.
remove Paul Norman from the credits here: Paul Norman's Computerized Publishing Company |
| |
Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Right, I removed his credits from that crack. About the other thing: Just because someone has a "scener profile" doesn't mean he's a scener. At least to me that is. I feel it's perfectly ok to add non-sceners to make credits complete. Just my 2 c. |
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
how did you do that? you aint a moderator here. is there a flaw in the php code allowing to edit locked entries? if so please share the exploit with us.
and you're so right about the other thing. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
1. if a well known musician is credited in 1 scene release (for 1 word in a scroll text for example) and his ripped music is used in several other productions then he is credited everywhere and the credits are complete.
2. however,if he isn't credited in that 1 scene production then he isn't credited in any other atall and the credits are incomplete.
it makes no sense.
its very easy:
- scener profiles are for sceners
- taking part in a scene production qualifies someone for beeing a scener
yes it may lead to the situation you describe above. like i said, call it a database flaw. the only alternative would be allowing a scener profile for everyone and his mother, which is far beyond the scope of csdb.
Quote:
About the other thing: Just because someone has a "scener profile" doesn't mean he's a scener. At least to me that is. I feel it's perfectly ok to add non-sceners to make credits complete. Just my 2 c.
please don't. this just isnt possible in a good way right now, and only leads to a lot of mess, like people adding companies as groups and similar nonsense. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
how did you do that? you aint a moderator here. is there a flaw in the php code allowing to edit locked entries? if so please share the exploit with us.
some people who are known to be good boys(tm) may unlock entries. |
| |
Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Quote: how did you do that? you aint a moderator here. is there a flaw in the php code allowing to edit locked entries? if so please share the exploit with us.
and you're so right about the other thing.
Below the mods (FAR FAR below) are the 'trusted sceners' We lot are allowed to break into locked entries and clean up the mess. Some also call them "screenshot-upload-bots". Ask Mace. ;-)
|
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:the only alternative would be allowing a scener profile for everyone and his mother, which is far beyond the scope of csdb.
you're painting unrealistic grim pictures of consequences for the ideas you don't like. I don't see how "everyone" and "his mother" could be credited in a scene release. and if his mother's piece of C64 work was really used in a scene production then i'm all for allowing a scener profile for his mother.
Quote:please don't. this just isnt possible in a good way right now, and only leads to a lot of mess, like people adding companies as groups and similar nonsense.
then this whole database leads to a lot of mess as a matter of fact. "Let's remove sceners that took part in the amiga scene because this will lead to people adding amiga groups here". Clear 2 rules saying:
1. adding people credited in a scene release is allowed
2. adding commercial companies and their releases is a no-no
would be SIMPLER and prevent "adding companies as groups and similar nonsense". will also cure the database flaw.
Matt Gray is here and no one adds Codemasters. and if anyone does he's told he shouldnt. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
you're painting unrealistic grim pictures of consequences for the ideas you don't like. I don't see how "everyone" and "his mother" could be credited in a scene release.
it's not only about the credits, but also of who should be entered as a scener, and what qualifies as a scene release. people already added a lot of nonsense in the past, like "commodore" as a group they could credit the cbm charset to. or commercial hardware as releases, including their creators as sceners, and their respective companies as groups.
we have to draw the line *somewhere*. "everyone who is credited in a scene release" might be one option, but the current rule is "everyone who participated in a scene release". the latter was choosen because the other would leave WAY too much freedom and room to add pretty much "everyone". why stop with musicians? if you allow them, you must allow all graficians too, because pretty much every game gfx was used in some scene production too. and you must allow anyone else who ever wrote some code for a game, which then has been ripped by someone for use in a scene production. this goes way too far, and will not be tolerated - atleast until we have found a better solution for this.
and matt gray is here because he made things like Atmosphere One which makes him a scener. (infact a whole lot of the later well known musicians are there for the same reason).
|
| |
d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
thanks for clearing that up... who's mother should we kick out of the csdb first? :P |
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
why kicking when writing 5 words in a scroll text secures an eternal place in CSDB. as a fact I'm planning a demo which mothers of famous sceners would contribute to with some scroll text. we need more females in the scene,dont we. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
no, we need more decent productions. who gives a damn wether they are made by girls or boys? i certainly dont. |
| |
Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Sometimes I get the impression you interpret the db guidelines a little too strict, Groepaz. You're really starting to sound like a broken record on a quest to protect the holy grail CSDb from evil things and keep it 'pure'.
Nothing wrong about keeping a critic view, but please don't overdo. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
it's all about database integrity really. and rules are useless if they arent followed (and sometimes enforced). |
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:it's all about database integrity really
indeed,adding a scener profile for a person credited in a scene production would severely break it. god save the SQL.
by the way,you have mentioned:
Quote:"everyone who is credited in a scene release" might be one option, but the current rule is "everyone who participated in a scene release"
i would love to know the rules. but this one is nowhere to be found :-( who knows what another rule might be. please give me a link to the guidelines so i can know them all. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
Commercial
Generally Groups, Companies and People with a pure commercial Background (like many Gamecoders) are not considered scene related and thus do not belong into the Database. Exceptions are those who do have a scene Background (like for example a lot of composers) that can be backed up by at least one scene release in the Database.
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=rules
and dont start nitpicking on wording and details that leave a bit of room for interpretation now. "backed up by a release" doesnt mean "some of his work has been ripped and used without him even knowing about it", but "he made it for the scene and released it to the scene". yes we should, and will, update those rules and make some stuff more clear, and give more examples. |
| |
assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
thank you for the link.
now the rules say:
Quote:Credits of Demo entries should refer to everyone involved in the production, including creators of ripped music or gfx.
please explain it to me how I can refer to someone who doesn't exist in the database. cluttering up user comments would be one option, any more nice ideas? |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
thats one of the things that needs to be made more clear, and which indeed shows a problem in the current design of the database. (for example creators of ripped content should somehow be seperated from creators of original content, which isnt possible either right now). for now indeed, such kind of info is best put into the "trivia" or comments, so it wont get lost and can be merged into the database properly in the future. |
| |
Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
I know this is a difficult thing to figure out after so much time, to clean up CSDb, but here goes:
If, for instance, a musician created an exclusive tune for Demo A, he can be credited for this production for sure. But if he did not participate in the creation of Demo B, he should not be credited for this production, even if his music was re-used in some part.
It might be an idea to stratify the credits for each scener into Original and Referenced/Used releases.
For instance, musicians released their music once, either as a stand-alone tune, or exclusive for a production.
The Original credit would then be for the Tune and the Production.
So, when other sceners use the Original tune in another production, the musician should not be credited for this Production as the credit should remain only for the tune (Original).
A "Referenced" table could then list those instances/productions where the original releases have also been used.
|
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
tunes should always be credited, no matter if they were originally made for a production or not... however such a flag is needed, yes. and it will come, maybe, sometime =P |
