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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Emu-Fuxx0r
Hello, CSDb denizens-
I would like to bring up this subject, in a constructive fashion, however!
I recently found out that certain demo authors and groups are now using Krill's code to disable their demo offerings under c64 or 128 emulators.
I find this practive to be very shortsighted and in fact, I would vote very negatively on such behavior in CSDb or on any related votesheet.
Why go to all of this trouble in emulator detection and disabling technology. IMHO, the time *wasted* on such efforts are far better spent on NTSC fixing it so that we North American sceners can view your demo releases. (And on the real machines, I might add!) Or just add a NTSC-fixer to your demo crews and share full source code for a proper NTSC fix.
As of now, I am unable, still, to view certain demos due to no NTSC-fix and an emulator is out of the question as they are emufuxx0red! Talk about severely limiting your audience.
An c64 emulator is a brilliant piece of software engineering. The original c64 was truly inspired piece of software/hardware engineering. Are they not equal in deserving consideration and respect? The c64 audience uses both kinds, the emulation and the real thing and all of them share the common c64 computing experience.
Also, emulators are perfect for one thing; they can easily take screenshots of demo screens, even if there's interlacing effects and sprites multiplexed all over. I plan on writing newsletter articles covering the demo scene and try to bring more awareness to the North American scene regarding fine demo offerings and screenshots are invaluable.
I know that demo coders, graphicians, musicians, etc. all work together in creating inspired art on our Commodore 64's. Let's not restrict the audience any necessarily further by implementing emulator detection and shutdown. Allow any Commdore (real or emulated) user worldwide to share in the demo experience in 2002 and onwards. :)
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Emu-fuxx0r is, to my mind, a very sad waste of time - there are only two products that i'm aware of that won't execute correctly on CCS64; "Demus Interruptus" and HCL's remix of the Starion crack intro (both work in VICE and the latest version even gets around the emu locking on "Demus").
Okay, so i understand the "C64 pride" aspect and, up until recently, i would have been right behind it - but things change and, with CCS and VICE "coming of age" to the point where they're 99.x% accurate, i honestly can't see why anybody would want to lose potential viewers.
Since the bulk of interest in the C64 these days on the 'net is based around the popularity of the emulators, we're cutting our collective throats if we don't allow for emu-based viewers now.
It's possible to code demos, draw graphics and compose music in an emu or even over Windows with tools like C64Asm, Congo (yeah, i know it sucks but it's an example) or GoatTracker. This means that there is potential for *new* sceners to appear who have never used a real machine but can contribute to the scene in a positive way.
Yes, i'd prefer that these potential sceners used the real deal, but sometimes that isn't possible; if we don't want the scene to shrivel up and die, we need new blood.
One aside though, to Eyeth: considering your demos to date are mostly SuperCPU only, don't you think it's a little pot/kettle to take a poke at people who are limiting their audience...? =-) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Krill said it was about the challenge and expect V3. Don't blame Krill, blame those who use it like HMMurdock and his Jeroen 'Red' Kimmel collection. VICE 1.8 can get around version 1 and 2 with some use of the VICE monitor and freeze/break points.
Some demos cannot be NTSC fixed for many reasons. Sometimes it's just easier to get PAL setup.
As for the Starion intro remake, VICE's $D016 bugs screw it up and make HCL seem like he can't code stand raster bars, which really are stable. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Erm, sorry, but VICE 1.8 runs the Starion Intro remake just fine (except for some minor glitches in the lower raster bar underneath the scrolltext). It's CCS64 who f&%$s up the intro really badly. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2924 |
Unfortunately this isn't 1990 and there aren't 15 fixers sitting around waiting for releases. Even then, demos weren't fixed on a large scale - one here and one there. Personal knowledge here, I was in quite a few NTSC importing groups. A few NTSC demo groups tried their hands at fixing - the two most successful were Arson and Style.
I haven't run into a single problem running any of the PAL demos I'd want to see on emulators. I also don't grab everything that comes out - like I did years ago - and view it.
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
I think it's crazy to spend your time on preventing programs to run on emulators.
In fact, I would feel bad if my own programs didn't work well on CCS64 and VICE.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: I think it's crazy to spend your time on preventing programs to run on emulators.
In fact, I would feel bad if my own programs didn't work well on CCS64 and VICE.
Personally, i'd be surprised if my stuff *didn't* work on an emu, there's very little of note going on in the video tricks department (my all-time favourite routine of mine is the bitmap tech-tech in "Contraflow", which is an incredibly tight piece of speed-code and should execute on any emu that does cycle emulation).
As i said, there are exceptions that still aren't emulated fully but that's probably more because the techniques used are new variations rather than anything else - given time they'll be covered by CCS too.
Now, one thing i'd like to find a bit of time for is to sit down and play with C64S, i reckon there's a few quirks in there that don't happen on a real C64 that i could make some *really* nice routines out of... =-) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
So? Krill created it for the challenge. I don't think he has anything against emulators. Email etc. those who actually use the protections. So fat all protections can be bypassed so there is no worry. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Interesting read, this is. Thanks for quoting me, Stryyker. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Interesting read, this is. Thanks for quoting me, Stryyker.
Hey Krill, any chance of an emu-un-fuxx0r - it'd be a challenge! =-)
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Maybe it is a bad idea to make a production not work when being run on emulators (because of the thinx you guys have said).
But we can all agree that emulators sucks :), so some kind of emu-protection is cool. Instead of making the production crash, it would be cool if it displayed a nag-screen (like in some of the old shareware programs) when being run on an emulator, saying f.e. "emulators suck - this will look/sound lame on an emulator - run it on a real C64. (press space to start)" or something.
Just a suggestion... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: Maybe it is a bad idea to make a production not work when being run on emulators (because of the thinx you guys have said).
But we can all agree that emulators sucks :), so some kind of emu-protection is cool. Instead of making the production crash, it would be cool if it displayed a nag-screen (like in some of the old shareware programs) when being run on an emulator, saying f.e. "emulators suck - this will look/sound lame on an emulator - run it on a real C64. (press space to start)" or something.
Just a suggestion...
Very good idea CyberBrain! |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Quote: Maybe it is a bad idea to make a production not work when being run on emulators (because of the thinx you guys have said).
But we can all agree that emulators sucks :), so some kind of emu-protection is cool. Instead of making the production crash, it would be cool if it displayed a nag-screen (like in some of the old shareware programs) when being run on an emulator, saying f.e. "emulators suck - this will look/sound lame on an emulator - run it on a real C64. (press space to start)" or something.
Just a suggestion...
I dont agree that emus suck.
a) I dont have to have two computers built up all the time.
2) faster disk changing etc., general quick handling,
3) easier to maintain collection
Of course the real thing is my fav, still using emus has the mentioned advantages.
Also Haakan and the VICE crew really put a lot of effort and enthusiasm in the emulation of the C64 and I appreciate that. Look at the Amiga emulators, they mostly suck.
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
I totally agree with rOuGh. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Emulators have their use, I personally don't like watching demo's on them but when it comes to magazines they absolutely rule.
Making a emu-fuxx0r would not be my favourite way of spending time, but if Krill gets a kick out of it, so be it. Ofcourse it's nonsense to 'demand' him spending his time on something else like ntsc-fixing instead. After all, it is HIS time and he can do with it as he pleases.
Hey, where have I heard that before?
*cough*(Timewaster/Focus)*cough*
PLEASE people, just because somebody does something you don't agree with, don't go telling him what he should do. After all, you 'waste' all your time here posting stuff while you could be fixing those damn demos yourself :)
And now I go back to my 6510-Fuxx0r, which will make sure the next Focus demo runs on an emulator, but not on the real thing.
/Marco |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
On C64S you can possibly gain a few cycles because it isn't emulating cycles on badlines correctly?? (not completely sure, but I remember doing musicroutine-tests a long time ago and they seemed to take less rastertime on C64S) Also, there were some bugs with the CPU flags & bit shift instructions. Because of this, sprites flew around the screen in weird fashion when I was testing MW3 on it for fun - then at some point the loaderpart refused to work altogether. :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: On C64S you can possibly gain a few cycles because it isn't emulating cycles on badlines correctly?? (not completely sure, but I remember doing musicroutine-tests a long time ago and they seemed to take less rastertime on C64S) Also, there were some bugs with the CPU flags & bit shift instructions. Because of this, sprites flew around the screen in weird fashion when I was testing MW3 on it for fun - then at some point the loaderpart refused to work altogether. :)
i've noticed a few very interesting reactions when fucking with $d011 - i'd need to experiment with them a little more to see what they can do... =-) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Ah, now I remembered another thing, that has to do with the C64S serial bus emulation. It seems to work like there were 2 sets of DATA & CLK, the other going from C64 to 1541 and other from 1541 to C64 (when a line is pulled low only the other device sees it low at input lines)
That could make for some interesting fastloader-protocols. :) |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
@TDJ: The point is not that Krill is using his time on coding Emufuxxors, the point is that is annyoing to see that stupid -no emu screen- when you run emufuxxed files. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Rough, just wait until you see the -no c64 screen- when you run my next demo :)
To be honest: I've never encountered the emufuxxor screen, then again, I watch all demo's on the real thing. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Rough, just wait until you see the -no c64 screen- when you run my next demo :)
To be honest: I've never encountered the emufuxxor screen, then again, I watch all demo's on the real thing.
Apparently, some real C64s show that message too...? =-)
The only time i've seen it was the Jeroen Kimmel colly, i considered de-fuxx0ring it but couldn't be arsed. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
It is true, it is not 100% reliable but far more reliable than before. Don't blame Krill. Blame those who use it. Also, emulators get better, maybe there will be no detection possible :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: It is true, it is not 100% reliable but far more reliable than before. Don't blame Krill. Blame those who use it. Also, emulators get better, maybe there will be no detection possible :)
Well, Krill is responsible for the reliability of his product surely...? =-)
No, i know it's down to the users rather than Krill, "crippling" a product in this way is never going to be good for the scene. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352 |
well it *may* be good to the scene though, in the sence that it might push emulator authors to improve their emulators. |
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axe
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 8 |
I think it's funny that Krill found a way to bypass the emulator and I understand the fun he'll be having for someone with an emulator not being able to run stuff,
but I also think it's nonsence, because there are a lot of (ex)-sceners or people who used to have a c64 who want to watch new releases on their PC and are left out.
What's the point? Face it there are less and less people interested in this old machine, so why bann people who realy ARE interested in it?
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
...Because if you see anything on an emulator, it will look acceptable at best. It's nothing like the real thing, even on the new emulators. (emulators are good for grabbing screenshots, and as a debugging tool, but not to see demos - c'mon people!) |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Quote: Apparently, some real C64s show that message too...? =-)
The only time i've seen it was the Jeroen Kimmel colly, i considered de-fuxx0ring it but couldn't be arsed.
TMR, do you know which certain C64 models show the message? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: TMR, do you know which certain C64 models show the message?
No idea, but it wasn't me who found the problem - i've just seen a few people mention it in other forums before now. Wasn't that what the problem with v1.0 of Emu-Fuxx0r was too...? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: ...Because if you see anything on an emulator, it will look acceptable at best. It's nothing like the real thing, even on the new emulators. (emulators are good for grabbing screenshots, and as a debugging tool, but not to see demos - c'mon people!)
Some people are never going to use a real C64, the ease and availability of emulators is responsible for that. In the same way that the casual viewer won't sit there for ages arsing around with the settings of their PC to run DOS demos, having to set up (or even get hold of) a C64 is a few steps further than a passive audience expects to go.
So we can either say bugger the lot of 'em and write demos that are for real machines and real machines alone (which means specifically going out and blocking emulator use) and the chances of winning new people into the scene goes downhill like a bobsleigh. Or we can be sensible and give the lazier viewers a *taste* of what the C64 can do and we may get a few peoples interest up.
Some of these would-be converts will work in emulators (which is fine, emulators are now close enough to make that possible) but others may buy a real machine - either way new blood is good. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
MS wrote Windows. Linus created Linux. No one forces people to use them for home use. Get in contact with those who use such tools. I don't think Krill has used it on his own productions. Email the people who use it. Some people have created bad tools in the past or useless tools.
As far as I know only 1 production used it and seems pointless for it to use it. If the emulators were up to the suitable standard, this tool wouldn't make any difference. I guess this keeps Krill's mind interested and occupied. I know I often need a break from certain things as they get boring and lose interest. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
I have to say that the emufuxxor really kills me. A prime example would be Demus Interruptus. I've always been a HUGE fan of Crossbow's, and would like to see this demo (without having to hack it-that's disrespectful) so much that I actually bought a PAL C64 and paid to have it shipped to the states. Unfortunately, there's no good way to VIEW a PAL C64 in the states, since you also need a PAL monitor. (Talking a few 100 USD to ship that over, and then there's the power problem, that should take me a few years to sort out a solution.)
To put it bluntly, my only recourse right now to see PAL demos properly is to use an emulator, and I'm pretty sad over not being able to check out DemusInterruptus without hacking it, which I won't do out of respect for Crossbow. Catch 22, huh? |
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Black Belt Jones
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 57 |
Six, you sound like a real die-hard follower to have a PAL 64 shipped in, well done man. If its any help to you, I know a TV is no substitute for a monitor but most newer TV's will support many different input frequencies, 50Hz, 60Hz, PAL, NTSC and SECAM. Do you have one that does that? Mind you the input should ideally be composite video into the TV as im not sure if the TV's converting circuitry will work off an RF signal. I use this function not for the 64 but for my sega saturn which then allows me to play japanese NTSC games in proper 50Hz mode. Mind you I am in australia so I run on PAL. See how you go.... |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
The problem is mainly with the color-encoding. I also bought one of those PAL/NTSC to VGA converters, and it's no-go. Disappointment, but a few $$ from now I'll have the PAL monitor to go with my PAL C64. <BIG GRIN HERE> |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Blimey, too many to quote...!
Stryker: i *did* email the author of the one product released that was Emy-Fuxx0red, because i couldn't run it...
Six: "Demus Interruptus" isn't Fuxx0red, run it on the latest version of WinVICE and it works perfectly - Crossbow added that "protection" because the five border sprites over IFLI part doesn't work on older versions of WinVICE CCS 2.0 beta.
Oh, and use a television if you have a 50Hz option - a lot of PAL people use a TV instead of a monitor anyway... =-) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
TMR:What did the author say? As you may know I had problems with the said person :)
PAL/NTSC 34cm can be bought here in Australia for less than $US150 new. Many VCRs here also enable NTSC playback on PAL tv. I wonder if PAL playback on NTSC exists in USA? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: TMR:What did the author say? As you may know I had problems with the said person :)
PAL/NTSC 34cm can be bought here in Australia for less than $US150 new. Many VCRs here also enable NTSC playback on PAL tv. I wonder if PAL playback on NTSC exists in USA?
Said author is a very staunch believer in "real machine or nothing" with emphasis on *nothing* - he seemed a little upset when i told him i was developing using an emu these days...
(For reference, "Rollover" was written in CCS64 2.0 beta at the back end of 1999 and nobody noticed... =-) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Heh, reminds me how Thunderblade was a bit surprised :) when I told all the MW games had been developed completely without testing on the real machine (my reacquiring of working C64 hardware came only later) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Heh, reminds me how Thunderblade was a bit surprised :) when I told all the MW games had been developed completely without testing on the real machine (my reacquiring of working C64 hardware came only later)
In the case of "Rollover", it was mostly coded on a P166MMX (using a native assembler) whilst i was supposed to be working - it had a deadline in that it had got a few jokes about the millennium bug so it had to go out at 23:59pm GMT on 31st December 1999.
The whole thing was written and i was just about to port it back to a floppy to test when my X cable died; since this was about six hours before release, i didn't have the time to get anything done and it had to go out without being tried on a real C64... |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
After finishing another intro for Vandalism News and a demo part, I'll get down again to waste some more time on Emu-Fuxx0r. I'll never use it myself, though. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: After finishing another intro for Vandalism News and a demo part, I'll get down again to waste some more time on Emu-Fuxx0r. I'll never use it myself, though.
Have you considered the idea suggested by CyberBrain - a "nag screen" rather than locking the emu users out totally...? Seems like a good idea to me, you can show off the fuxx0r and at the same time it doesn't cripple the product. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Have you considered the idea suggested by CyberBrain - a "nag screen" rather than locking the emu users out totally...? Seems like a good idea to me, you can show off the fuxx0r and at the same time it doesn't cripple the product.
Krill, rather than just waste time making another version of that Fuxx0r tool. Why don't you work on something more useful, like a really good packer.
Also I agree with Cyberbrain. A silly text message would be more better than locking out the emulators.
Maybe (as someone said earlier) an un-fuxx0r should be produced.
Those who use that Fuxx0r will notice that they will *lose* a lot of audience, as most of the generation own an Emulator instead of a real C64.
Of course I use -both- Emulator and C64. So if anything gets Emu Fuxx0red. I'll transfer it to a real C64 and UNFuxx0r it, repack and make it emulation friendly then upload to FTP. And put a TND intro on the front :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
I used to be more strongly against Emu-Fuxx0rs but now I've come to the conclusion (like some others) that some controversy is good for the scene to keep it active. And I believe any kind of C64 production or tool is good, as it shows activity, and expertise. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Krill wastiing his time? It is his time. Some would say you've wasted time with your work. You going to bitch about War Deal Lamers and their tools? I've heard of some of the stuff Krill has planned, can't wait and he also wrote some stuff for Go64!, too bad english versions is so far behind.
Companies produce road cars that easily go over 200km/h. Doesn't mean you need to go that fast if you drive one.
Get of his back and produce something worthwhile yourself. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Just a thought....
People program various C64 stuff, which can be really silly or lame, but hang on - that's where the programmers are actually -enjoying- themselves on the C64/Emulator. But I disagree 105% about Emu-Fuxx0ring. I'm anti fuxx0r. Although I have fuxx0red one or two programs before, I never uploaded the fuxx0red stuff. I just wanted to see if it works.
If I see anything 'Fuxx0red', then (as I said before), I will unfuxx0r the production, add an intro screen (The Society Against Fuxx0ring' and upload on to FTPs labelled '(filename)_TSAF'.
Fuxx0ring productions = less support
De-Fuxx0ring productions = more support
Remember, if you don't emu-fuxx0r a program, you'll gain more fans, and possibly friends.
By C64 Law, you are strictly FORBIDDEN to emu-fuxx0r any production, anyone caught doing this will entered in the hall of LAME :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Well, that's another form of C64 activity, if you really have time for unfuxx0ring, then why not. And of course emulator users will appreciate that (provided that the production is 100% working after unfuxx0ring) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
T.M.R. : I actually will make a tool with a nag screen, for all the weenies amongst you who don't have the balls to use Emu-Fuxx0r, but I already planned to do it Cupid suggested it to me.
Richard: The best idea for all would be to make that packer and the Fuxx0r as well, don't you think?
Cadaver: Very true.
Stryyker: Thank you once more.
This un-fuxx0r thing is possible but very hard to implement, especially for the upcoming version. Coding such a thing, I'd quite outdo myself. Pretty pointless for me. If someone feels challenged now then go ahead and code an un-fuxx0r! And when it's finished, I'll have two more demoparts finished. Ahem. |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
Krill: You don't need "balls" to use an emu-fuxxor. Just a narrow mind believing other people cannot judge on their own. Freedom roxx!
Ninja / The Dreams
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fenek
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 3 |
Krill wrote:"This un-fuxx0r thing is possible but very hard to implement"
I wrote un-emu-fuxx0r v1, and it is $ad bytes long
$0b02 - sid d400, color d800
$0c58 - d01e with 07 in d015
$0d07 - d01e with fa in d015
$0e68 - dd00 (drive 8 on) m-w,m-e 0300
$0f20 - relocator, run first BASIC line
fenek/arise
fenekars@poczta.onet.pl
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Krill wrote:"This un-fuxx0r thing is possible but very hard to implement"
I wrote un-emu-fuxx0r v1, and it is $ad bytes long
$0b02 - sid d400, color d800
$0c58 - d01e with 07 in d015
$0d07 - d01e with fa in d015
$0e68 - dd00 (drive 8 on) m-w,m-e 0300
$0f20 - relocator, run first BASIC line
fenek/arise
fenekars@poczta.onet.pl
That's not really what i meant by an un-fuxx0r, i meant a tool that would load a fuxx0r'd file, rip Krill's code off and re-save it. i wasn't entirely serious i hasten to add, for me to actually *write* a tool is rare and for said tool to have a user interface is unheard of! =-) |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: That's not really what i meant by an un-fuxx0r, i meant a tool that would load a fuxx0r'd file, rip Krill's code off and re-save it. i wasn't entirely serious i hasten to add, for me to actually *write* a tool is rare and for said tool to have a user interface is unheard of! =-)
.....and this is the scene fighting back. If anyone writes any more fuxx0ring utilities then the scene might build some unfuxx0ring utilities.
But it is activity on the C64 scene that counts ;) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: .....and this is the scene fighting back. If anyone writes any more fuxx0ring utilities then the scene might build some unfuxx0ring utilities.
But it is activity on the C64 scene that counts ;)
Isn't pronouncing yourself as the voice of the scene in that way a tad pretentious, the scene in general doesn't seem to care either way about the Fuxx0r and Krill himself is apparently in it as much for the challenge as anything else...?
Maybe we need an SCPU Fuxx0r too...? =-) |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Krill said it was about the challenge and expect V3. Don't blame Krill, blame those who use it like HMMurdock and his Jeroen 'Red' Kimmel collection. VICE 1.8 can get around version 1 and 2 with some use of the VICE monitor and freeze/break points.
Some demos cannot be NTSC fixed for many reasons. Sometimes it's just easier to get PAL setup.
As for the Starion intro remake, VICE's $D016 bugs screw it up and make HCL seem like he can't code stand raster bars, which really are stable.
Fear not, because I've un-fuxx0red the 'Jeroen 'Red' Kimmel collection'. You can download it from http://www.redizajn.sk/tnd64/fuxx0rs_suck/index.html
WE WAR AGAINST FUXX0RS! Pointless, but cool! |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Fear not, because I've un-fuxx0red the 'Jeroen 'Red' Kimmel collection'. You can download it from http://www.redizajn.sk/tnd64/fuxx0rs_suck/index.html
WE WAR AGAINST FUXX0RS! Pointless, but cool!
....Oh, forget what I have said about the J.Kimmel Collection being Unfuxx0red. Okay, so I've released unfuxx0red versions of this production on to FTPs, but I think this war against Fuxx0rs will have to stop. Nah, coz if more people war against Fuxx0ring, (As someone said to me) it would cause the whole scene to start this fuxx0ring business. Maybe we should forget all about it ;)
I'll continue writing productions on the C64/Emu, but no more of this stupid 'F.A.F' group sort of stuff ;) |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Hrm, what is lame? emu fuxxoring, un-emu fuxxoring or starting a federation against emu fuxxoring. Yes, I see you online Richard_tnd and i'd like to let you know that YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY THE SADDEST SHITSTAIN ON THE MOUTH OF HUMANITY I HAVE EEEEEEEEVER SEEN. Come on bloke, you release a game and then find a huge ass bug. But wait, you can always stay around for version 1.6. Go code a pc game. You suck and everything related to you sucks. Especially this pansy ass "federation". Why have a federation against this when you really need a federation against having your anal passage violated by rabid forest animals.
Download Porn, Play Quake 2 online.. anything that requires you acting less socially retarded than this. Give up. Use the pc for one reason regarding the 64, transferring files across[i'll include 1.a: reading all these ugly looking fucking magazines out there]
Please just quit with the whinging, so many people are sick of your tripe they are just about ready to turn the 100 monkeys you have "un-emufuxxoring" releases against you, leaving you with no friends, no sexual partners and no-one to say "Metal Deluxe is such a super ware dude"
I don't care about emufuxxoring..
fade/Onslaught..
The book of Austin 3:16 says i just whooped your ass.. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Hrm, what is lame? emu fuxxoring, un-emu fuxxoring or starting a federation against emu fuxxoring. Yes, I see you online Richard_tnd and i'd like to let you know that YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY THE SADDEST SHITSTAIN ON THE MOUTH OF HUMANITY I HAVE EEEEEEEEVER SEEN. Come on bloke, you release a game and then find a huge ass bug. But wait, you can always stay around for version 1.6. Go code a pc game. You suck and everything related to you sucks. Especially this pansy ass "federation". Why have a federation against this when you really need a federation against having your anal passage violated by rabid forest animals.
Download Porn, Play Quake 2 online.. anything that requires you acting less socially retarded than this. Give up. Use the pc for one reason regarding the 64, transferring files across[i'll include 1.a: reading all these ugly looking fucking magazines out there]
Please just quit with the whinging, so many people are sick of your tripe they are just about ready to turn the 100 monkeys you have "un-emufuxxoring" releases against you, leaving you with no friends, no sexual partners and no-one to say "Metal Deluxe is such a super ware dude"
I don't care about emufuxxoring..
fade/Onslaught..
The book of Austin 3:16 says i just whooped your ass..
Okey dokey! ;) |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Okey dokey! ;)
Fade: I will continue my support for the C64 scene with my games, etc.
PC games? No thanx don't like 'em.
As for those nasty comments. Not appreciated, but I wont send any nasty comments. |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
why quote the whole thing when it was the message above yours, stooge!. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: why quote the whole thing when it was the message above yours, stooge!.
Oops ;) |
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Vengeance
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 22 |
I really dont care about this discussion. I just say, read VANDALISM NEWS,Weather its on emu on real 64 or whatever. Just read it and throw your support behind the scene and the mag ;)
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
vengeance, please release a new issue of vandalism news as soon as possible. I read both scene world and arachnaphobia last week and i feel terrible. So please give me back my thirst for diskmags :)
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Hollowman: Very true. The promised article on Emu-Fuxx0r in Scene World was also quite disappointing already on the journalistic aspect.
Fenek: Hmm. Send me that tool.
T.M.R: True. My motiviation is not this "c64 pride" thingy. But not only the mere challenge too.
Richard: -
Well... Cat and mouse. Meanwhile, I'll sit back and light a nice joint. Aaaah. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Hollowman: Very true. The promised article on Emu-Fuxx0r in Scene World was also quite disappointing already on the journalistic aspect.
Fenek: Hmm. Send me that tool.
T.M.R: True. My motiviation is not this "c64 pride" thingy. But not only the mere challenge too.
Richard: -
Well... Cat and mouse. Meanwhile, I'll sit back and light a nice joint. Aaaah.
I shall now back down.... |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Krill: Sorry for all this silly grief I caused regarding the silly fuxx0ring thing. Things seemed to have went out of hand.
Also, (and to the rest of the scene) please don't publish any comments, slagging me off, regarding my activities, as:
1. The scene wont be interested
2. It's lame.
Rest of the Scene: Keep up the good work on the C64, and we will continue support of the scene. No matter what ;) and most important of them all ..... No Slagging off ;)
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Even for 2002 standard both Arachnophobia and Scene World are terribly lame magazines. (and anyone related to them: please don't whine around for your releases being rated bad) |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
Ahh well, I guess if one isn't bright enough to get around the fuxxoring, or devoted enough to get a real machine to run something on, then they deserve to be SOL. It's just so much more convenient not to have to deal with silliness like that, tho. I really fail to understand the mentality behind anyone who would use such a thing. It restricts your audience. I'm completely about the opposite. I want anything I release to function equally on PAL OR NTSC hardware, and hopefully run on VICE as well. I'm all about expanding the scene, and it would seem to me that using something which restricts access to a release does quite the opposite, and can only discourage people.
HOWEVER, I can certainly appreciate why Krill would take the time to write such a thing, as it's always enjoyable to be able to do something that people don't think can be done.
In the long run, I can only hope that the existance of such things as emufuxxor will do minimal damage to the scene, and result in much-improved, if not perfect, emulators. |
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Vengeance
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 22 |
Hollowman... Well you dont have to long to wait for Vandalism we are just waiting on some text at the moment from ed and joe. Also I guess we are waiting on an intro by Krill.
Gotta agree about Sceneworld&Arachnophobia, Its good to have these magazines come out for extra releases but the quality its a little ordinary.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Krill: Sorry for all this silly grief I caused regarding the silly fuxx0ring thing. Things seemed to have went out of hand.
Also, (and to the rest of the scene) please don't publish any comments, slagging me off, regarding my activities, as:
1. The scene wont be interested
2. It's lame.
Rest of the Scene: Keep up the good work on the C64, and we will continue support of the scene. No matter what ;) and most important of them all ..... No Slagging off ;)
Once again you're speaking for the scene in general to declare it's lack of interest without understanding the scene and without knowing enough about it's history to make that call.
The scene as a whole has always *loved* to watch people slagging each other off, check all the old "Federations Against This, That and The Other" and the anti-demos.
The scene is, in part, *built* around slagging off - that's why the whole "one scene united" thing never really gets off the ground...
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
TMR: thats is true, it's always amusing. I'm now watching Hurricanerlamer by Alphaflight [released with altered Beast] and it's amusing as all hell, also great music.
Just so everyone knows, i have no real issue with richard_tnd. but emufuxxoring is a novel idea, there is no need to start a big campaign against it, if anything it is a good idea to turn your 64 on. If you want to emu fuxx or not i don't care and so do a lot of people in the scene.
Thats just the way it is.. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
I think T.M.R. raises an interesting point. Some of the most inventive (if not technologicly advancing) demos I have in my collection are war demos. Take the "ESI Shit" demo for instance. Controversy itself does seem to pique people's interest, and as an example, look at the number of replies and views on different CSDb topics. You'll find that this semi-controversial topic has gotten the most traffic. The scene really does seem to thrive on controversy.
In the interest of deviating even further from the origional topic of this thread, I suggest that we should invent an imaginary lamer and have a war-demo competition to stir up interest in the demo arts. Any takers? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Okay, time to unleash everything...
I won't produce a 100% working version of Emu-Fuxx0r.
The reason is not that I don't feel like wasting my time on that but that I think this tool has fulfilled its task. I just wanted to see whether it'd be used at all and how people would react on it. In fact, I never used an emulator protection in my productions.
To be honest, this was not my only reason to make this piece of software. In the first place, I just wanted to enable all people to prevent their software from running on emulators, as I realized there are actually people intending that. I myself am not a die-hard "C64 Pride" warrior. And not against emulators at all, too. I just wanted to give people a powerful tool.
As Crossbow did a similar protection before, I were not first one coding such a protection, but the one giving also non-coders that possibility. His protection was very easy to work around, and I just wanted to make a better one. This was the challenge for me. Actually a challenge referring the encryption routines and not the check routines, which I think were never considered impossible.
Later on, I realized that I had actually done something quite foolish, not having thought about the impact on the scene I could have caused. But then I thought it might be funny to go on with it and see what would happen.
It seems like Fenek/arise has found a nice way to un-fuxx0r the files, and as I don't feel like thinking up some new protection techniques (but coding some new demo routines instead), a new version basing on the old ones would really be a waste of time in the effectivity way.
Still, the check routines work, and I already received a request to give them away, obviously this person's wish is to protect his own software. Don't blame me if he does.
Somehow, this whole situation reminds me of this short story called "The Weapon", where a certain Dr Graham (no kidding!) is about to invent the Ultimate Weapon, not caring about the results of his actions.
Okay, enough on that one. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352 |
mmmh i'd be interisted in those detection routines aswell.... not really to protect, but to detect - and show some silly message or other weirdo stuff especially for emulator users :) |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Apparently I had this idea of a "Emulator only intro" together with krill. A small introscreen with information what problems might occur on an emulator, that is only shown in an emulator.
Isn't that a better solution than making Emulator protections? Telling the users flat out that what they are going to see is not 100% what it is supposed to look like?
This is much the same approach as newer designer websites take, use the goodies of css2, but keep the sites accessible for other users as well, while telling them that their browser is outdated (http://www.alistapart.com/ for an example, watch it with netscape 4.x). |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Emu-Detector - That's more like it ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Personally I'm waiting for somebody to emu-fuxx the unfuxxored version of the Jeroen Kimmel collection.
Just imagine, the irony! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: Personally I'm waiting for somebody to emu-fuxx the unfuxxored version of the Jeroen Kimmel collection.
Just imagine, the irony!
But please, never Emu-fuxx the emufuxxor. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Personally I'm waiting for somebody to emu-fuxx the unfuxxored version of the Jeroen Kimmel collection.
Just imagine, the irony!
Heh, heh! ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352 |
Or those ppl which are constantly bitching about the lack of releases could form a group that re-releases old games in emufux0red versions :=) Ha! and then another bunch of ppl goes forming a group that unfux0rs them again! Twice the amount of releases generated out of nothing! Life is good! ;=P |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Hey :)
This has been really interesting reading!
But there are some points that are worth
mentioning here.
I'm finalizing my demo for release atm.
I thought alot about it & decided to include a emu-detection
routine in the demo.
Not for preventing, but alerting the user, and here's why:
Both me & Vip watched the demo on the CCS, and didnt like what we saw one bit.
C64 Graphics looks crap on emus, and no PAL filter can never change that.
The SID emulation is also far from perfect, not even close.
Also, some 'bugs' are apparent in certain fx (perfect on real 64/128) and music sync is not always 100%.
I want my demo watched in its full potential & ability, and emus do exactly the opposite!
If it means ppl without a real 64/128 wont be able to watch the demo, so be it!
It'd be better than ppl watching the demo on an emu, thinking its buggy or that the music sux.
I wont bother blocking it bcoz its useless, but i will give a BIG warning if an EMU is detected.
If i'm not mistaken, even Krill's +H2K demo crashes on the CCS in more than one place...
thats not a way to watch a demo.
Just my two cents.
Raven
PS: Krill, i'd like those detection routines please, to save me some work :)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Raven, I'm really happy to hear that the demo is on the good way. |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Quote: Raven, I'm really happy to hear that the demo is on the good way.
Well, finally had the time to fix all the bugs, especially that nasty border one :)
Working on the endpart now, then its out.
Raven |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
That's Fantastic!!! |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Quote: Well, finally had the time to fix all the bugs, especially that nasty border one :)
Working on the endpart now, then its out.
Raven
Raven,
Going to release it on a party ...? Maybe on the Role Party (August 2002) in Belgium (Vip can try to be present there to get a prize if the demo wins something)? Maybe you can be present at this party... Good luck with finishing it!
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@Commander:
The demo already competed at X2001 :) |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Quote: @Commander:
The demo already competed at X2001 :)
To Raven,
Yep, but was it 100% finished...? It looks like you are still finishing the demo...maybe I understood some things wrong...
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
@Commander:
You didnt get it wrong, the demo was unfinished & buggy, but it still competed.
As far as i know, a demo can only compete once :)
Am i wrong?...
Raven/64Ever |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Yup. It wouldn't be good to compete again, but you could make it an exclusive party release somwehere shown on big-screen. I was dreaming about showing this demo at Forever3 but it didn't happen, we havet to wait for Forever4 ;-) |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
hehe..
How about a c64.sk exclusive release? ;) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Same as HCL did with the 100% version of "Royal Arte", it didn't compete at X2001 but was released there. |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Quote: Yup. It wouldn't be good to compete again, but you could make it an exclusive party release somwehere shown on big-screen. I was dreaming about showing this demo at Forever3 but it didn't happen, we havet to wait for Forever4 ;-)
Raven,
Well, some groups didn't care about that. One of the groups who did in the past, is Padua with their demo Starburst (first time competed as a 10 % version and later on competed as a 100 % version, named Starburst 96)... I can not remember at the moment who also did rereleases, but I know more groups did this.
So, it's your own choice if you release the 100% version again in a compo or not... The 100% demo isn't completely the same as the unfinished one, or...
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Yeh, you know, be like a popstar and release your album again only this time with some bonus songs! And then, like, you know, your fans will buy it again and you will be double as rich!
Don't compete again. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: hehe..
How about a c64.sk exclusive release? ;)
It would be really cool birthday present. (C64.sk currently celebrates it's first year in bizness ;-) |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
TDJ: agreed, the starburst thing was just too good not to be released. And we had a loooooong discussion about it internally if I remember correctly.
Although I am tempted to release all the old demos again after removing all the tags in the logos...
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
I have no intention to compete with this demo again, once is
enough.
Time to move to the next project :) |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Does anyone have any Emulation-detection routines, which I could use on how to detect whether a real C64 is being used or an Emulator is being used? If so, how do I type the listing. This is because when I launch my next game, I want to add a bit of a surprise to the Emu users, but they still be able to play the game though :) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Simple - look though various routines that are known to check for emulators and give credit. SID checks, decimal mode bugs, collision detections (noting when sprites should be updating), checking for ROM charset is properly shown (collisions) and the list goes on... |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Perhaps I'll label myself as an asshole when I post this reply -- but I just want to say, that this kind of reply isn't going to help. Rich would likely expect ready-made ASM routines, as he either refuses or is unable to understand quite simple programming concepts when written in text as you did. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
@Richard: Didn't krill make a detector? Maybe you should ask him?
@cadaver: i don't know either. I don't have a clue about what emulators doesn't emulate properly, or how to fool emulators into making mistakes. (i guess it is only in some fairly complex cases due to several different circumstances it makes errors?) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Ah, btw. there's at least 3 ways to embarrass oneself by using an emu-detection routine
1) If the check gives positive on some real C64s
2) In the future as emulators improve, a message such as "thankyou for using real c64" seen on emu would be quite funny :)
3) Maybe C=1 owners wouldn't like their machines being called emulators :) |
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xIII
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 38 |
Quote: vengeance, please release a new issue of vandalism news as soon as possible. I read both scene world and arachnaphobia last week and i feel terrible. So please give me back my thirst for diskmags :)
There's a small bug in Vandalism News when viewed in Winvice 1.10 (a glitch or flikkering or whatever you call it)... It doesn't show on real c64 tho' ;) |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
And still I don't think that telling a user what system he has to use is a good idea. I won't check any stuff that doesn't run on emu because of a lame protection thing. Without those emulators the crowd of fans would not be that high. Good stuff is always worth the transfer time.
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Quote: And still I don't think that telling a user what system he has to use is a good idea. I won't check any stuff that doesn't run on emu because of a lame protection thing. Without those emulators the crowd of fans would not be that high. Good stuff is always worth the transfer time.
yeah, perhaps, but telling the user of an emulator that what he is about to see, doesn't look as it is supposed to i think is honourable.
If you are offended by such messages... well... don't think it's the demo-coders problem.
Richard isn't gonna make his stuff crash when run on emulators, if that's what you thought - check his posts. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Hear not,
I have spent a long time playtesting my new game, which I'll launch on to my web site in the new year. It is pure quality and believe me (seeing would be believeing) there are no major bugs or crashes in the game. Amazing huh? I concentrated really hard checking for bugs and kept my own source. I can tell you that it is a 1 or 2 player game, static screen, and has random game screens. I wont tell you anymore about the game. You have to keep your eyes peeled.
I'll be working on another few games later on, but I will release a 1-level playable preview of each game.
For those who crack my games. No matter how good or bad these cracks are. I keep them into a folder called the 'TND Firstreleases' archive. I will continue to collect first release or cracked versions of my games :)
Finally those TND intro-links will not continue on my game releases. They may be used elsewhere. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Richard, please use another thread for advertising your game.
Concerning your Question, why don't you let the user press "pound" if he has the real thing, and any other key, if he uses an emulator.
Should be easy enough to program yourself, and the pound-key is confusing enough for PC-Users.
Have Fun,
Zed Yago
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Too bad unix-VICE can be configured to map the keyboard "logically", so pound will in fact be output from the key with pound-sign :)
Well, all lamers use Windows anyway ;) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quote: @Richard: Didn't krill make a detector? Maybe you should ask him?
@cadaver: i don't know either. I don't have a clue about what emulators doesn't emulate properly, or how to fool emulators into making mistakes. (i guess it is only in some fairly complex cases due to several different circumstances it makes errors?)
A proper emulator detection is nothing I would call trivial. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
hmm. i wanted to quote cadaver. yeah. now i know what idea i can submit to improve csdb. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: hmm. i wanted to quote cadaver. yeah. now i know what idea i can submit to improve csdb.
105 posts on a particular subject? Now that's amazing :)
(cogs slowly turning in Richard's brain) |
