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deizi
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 95 |
REAL THING or Emulator?
do you have/or use The Real Thing instead of an emulator? ...and what's your opinion about emulators? (they don't work properly). i'm not really using them anymore. because i have the real thing. :) |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
emulators, good they are made. Main practical reasons for me: it saves time transfering, it's stable, use of harddisk storage.
Internet/Emulator pretty much these days replaces the combination Snailmail/Original C64. Still nothing beats watching a demo on the machine it was made for, so real demolovers should have that as well for the 'transfer worthy ones'! |
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deizi
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 95 |
ofcourse i do sometimes Preview with the emulator(s), but usually after that i transfer 'em what i previewed. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I haven't used the real thing since 1990 .. in fact all my Focus demos were made on an emulator, the first ones running on a spectrum zk. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Generally emulator is good for development of complex products like games. They also help in organisational work (checking of stuff, packing, making screenshots) and such things. *The Real thing* is for real fun. Gaming, composing, drawing, coding, etc. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
C64 Emulators are now at the point of being nearly 100 percent accurate (Including those with extreme vic trickery)
The main problem is the stable refresh of the display. Most PC monitors do not support 50Hz and all the imperfections (Which would have normally been blended by television) are displayed.
However a Video card with TV out can be used to display the emulator on a Television screen at exact 50Hz rate resulting in an extremely authentic experience)
Shame about the not so 100% sid emulation though |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
i have not encountered a single vga monitor which was NOT able to display 50 Hz... they only have problems with line frequencies, not with refresh rate. but you still won't have 100% smooth scrolling, since windows and linux were not built to have smooth animations. |
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
I think emulators are getting better and better (i only use winvice now).
But if you're a real c64 fan, the real thing is a must. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
For development purposes, using an emulator is a far less tedious experience and development time is vastly decreased.
However most C64 coders who have been coding for years on a C64 will find it easier to stay that way, although moving on to emulators will make life a lot more easier especially when coding and crunching. etc
altough I would recommend using a C64 only for designing graphics and composing music.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
My desktop looks like this (from left to right):
A diskdrive tower with 2 1541-II and one 1581 on top (playing Ultima V right now). Then the C128D (plastic case), on top of it a 1084S. Standing on the side is a C64-II, I only use it when I don't use the C128. Then comes my PC. :-)
And yes, I do use emulators (mostly WinVice 1.12 because of Catweasel support and the very accurate emulation), but not that often anymore. Since I have the XEP cable, transferring disks is a matter of 2 minutes. |
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
Emulators are the only way I can run PAL demos & games, without some serious hardware & shipping expense. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Emulators are good enough for taking screenshots, previewing d64's and organization (and i guess for debugging too - haven't used them for that though). So it's really nice having them.
But for watching demos they still suck ass. Allthough they've been much better, especially after Graham made the PAL-emulation on CCS64 and VICE, they still does not look/sound like a real C64. The feeling of demos (and games if you're into that wierd stuff) disappears, coz' the cool C64-gfx is ruined excatly enough to not look cool.
So still a big fuck goes out to all emulators! |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
I think I never finnished "Over The Edge" if it wasn't for emulators. Having a pixel exact display is a must. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
i do as little as possible on the real machine. when
i make a demo i only run the demo once in a while on
my c128d to check for bugs that dont appear in
emulator(doesnt occur very often if you do as little tweaking as i). and ofcourse i check good productions on
the real thing as well |
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
Quote: C64 Emulators are now at the point of being nearly 100 percent accurate (Including those with extreme vic trickery)
The main problem is the stable refresh of the display. Most PC monitors do not support 50Hz and all the imperfections (Which would have normally been blended by television) are displayed.
However a Video card with TV out can be used to display the emulator on a Television screen at exact 50Hz rate resulting in an extremely authentic experience)
Shame about the not so 100% sid emulation though
One question : How to get the best out of an emulator (for example WinVice, that I use mostly)? I am mainly talking of the grafic-interface and would like to have a 100% emulation of interlace-pictures.
About the Sid-Emulation, I like using the emulator, as you can switch between the old ans the new sid. Using ReSid give you a nice emulation even it's not 100% quality, but I am optmistic and think there will be soon a ReSid-Engine which can emulate the Sid for 100%.
Arman |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
I prefer real thing. This is because emulators are not accurate emulating the C64. I usually program on real C64, but I had to use Emulator in the past few months because my X1541 cable broke, and I don't have access to an old spec PC, due to not enough room with my setup. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
You have to be careful - don't rely on emulators completely!!! Especially when it comes to SID emulation. So, it's better to test anything, that's been done under an emulator, thoroughly also on a genuine C64, and about 1% of productions will fail one way or another. In my opinion, that's what the real thing is good for - testing. And demowatching, perhaps. Nothing more. I can't imagine myself composing on C64, it's most awkward (probably because I'm too used to Goat Tracker these days :>).
The thing I hate most about hardcore real C64 fans is that they bring the "emulators vs. real C64" issue out too often, just to prove they are better than the others - somehow. There's a phrase "big fuck goes out to all emulators" somewhere above, that's what I'm talking about. Why to waste a big fuck on an useful tool?
(CyberBrain does it for pleasure, I suppose, but still I prefer handsome men to emulators for that purpose) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
After all this debate shows that we have fianlly grew up. No more flaming about emulators. ;-) |
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Testicle
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 131 |
Quote: i have not encountered a single vga monitor which was NOT able to display 50 Hz... they only have problems with line frequencies, not with refresh rate. but you still won't have 100% smooth scrolling, since windows and linux were not built to have smooth animations.
that's the only - and in my opinion the hardest (or worst) - problem with emulators *i* have: the missing smooth-scrolling. but, emulator are pretty good though and i usually use only emulators. i only start the real c64 when i have much time. the problem is, i still have no transfer-cable, so i'm bound to emulators.
i think it depends on the purposes. and for my purposes the emultators do their job very well.
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Quote: After all this debate shows that we have fianlly grew up. No more flaming about emulators. ;-)
thats because kiddy fiddler Murdock isn't here :) |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
This has been really interesting reading. So for most of you guys, C64 is really an emulator here in 2003? You code for the emulator, make music for the emulator, watch demos on emulators (etc)? |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
The emulator is a must when I paint X-fli pictures. The pixels blur together too much on a tv-set. I also tend to make most my worktunes in WinVice nowadays. And of course, coding is a whole lot easier with alt+w and fake reu-files. |
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deizi
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 95 |
Quote: C64 Emulators are now at the point of being nearly 100 percent accurate (Including those with extreme vic trickery)
The main problem is the stable refresh of the display. Most PC monitors do not support 50Hz and all the imperfections (Which would have normally been blended by television) are displayed.
However a Video card with TV out can be used to display the emulator on a Television screen at exact 50Hz rate resulting in an extremely authentic experience)
Shame about the not so 100% sid emulation though
you said it! and you get the best FEELING when you watch demos, play games with a LARGE (or widescreen) TV. ;) |
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deizi
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 95 |
that post was ment for creamd. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
For coding I've grown to love comfy text editors, more than 1000 chars on screen. I love fast assembly with less limitations. VICE monitor isn't too bad and has helped me much during debugging. So far the only thing stopping me from composing on PC is the keyboard (too lazy to relearn the reflexes). Still, emulators are a great tool. I love having some variety. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
I'm still pretty childish, so I use the real thing for everything. |
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Bert/RDS
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 17 |
So do I. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Bert, Puterman. There is nothing childish about having your personal preferences.
Deizy: I currently use 1084 color monitor, but I'm going to set up a projector and big speakers sooner or later. |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
I use emulators on my amiga500. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
perhaps the lack of flaming is because the narrowminded bigmouths arent active anymore |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
IMO emulators have to be used responsibly. Especially ADSR & filter are still way off, even in reSID. Therefore I compose either on real C64 or hardsid. Often things made on emulator/x-dev utils are just "automatically" better looking & sounding on the real machine, but there are things to watch out for..
About programming, there's no way I would subject myself to project build process on 1MHz machine, when size of source files is measured in megabytes - time is short anyway.. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
I use VICE for development and for taking a quick look at new releases. My SuperCPU128 is used mainly for testing stuff before I release. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
but then, does it make ANY sense when everybody brings his laptop to a c64 party because it's a lot easier to take with you and because of the great emulator?
i admit, and with me a lot of ppl, that the emulator is a very handy tool...but i still prefer my c64 becuase it gives me 'that'feeling ;-) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: but then, does it make ANY sense when everybody brings his laptop to a c64 party because it's a lot easier to take with you and because of the great emulator?
i admit, and with me a lot of ppl, that the emulator is a very handy tool...but i still prefer my c64 becuase it gives me 'that'feeling ;-)
It's easy.. bring C64 machines to C64 parties. Bring PC to PC parties. It works quite well. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Can I bring my laptop to the next party if I only use it as external harddisk via 64hdd? ;-) |
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
Quote: One question : How to get the best out of an emulator (for example WinVice, that I use mostly)? I am mainly talking of the grafic-interface and would like to have a 100% emulation of interlace-pictures.
About the Sid-Emulation, I like using the emulator, as you can switch between the old ans the new sid. Using ReSid give you a nice emulation even it's not 100% quality, but I am optmistic and think there will be soon a ReSid-Engine which can emulate the Sid for 100%.
Arman
What I'd say for best emulator video results is to set your refresh rate to 50/60 or 100/120 hz, force vsync on if your drivers allow it in 2d modes, 640x400 fullscreen so you get more authentic non-square pixels, turn off "Double size", and obviously PAL emulation on. I've got my PC monitor next to my 1084s, and the images are the same size, color, and aspect ratio. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
A PAL C64 produces almost square pixels.
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
I use the real thing for doing graphics, code and music. For me it just has to be a real c128d keyboard, an old Commodore monitor etc.
I just can't work in an emulator. I also prefer to watch demos and play games on the real thing.
I do use an emulator for grabbing screenshots and sometimes also to test if my code works on NTSC. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Quote: but then, does it make ANY sense when everybody brings his laptop to a c64 party because it's a lot easier to take with you and because of the great emulator?
i admit, and with me a lot of ppl, that the emulator is a very handy tool...but i still prefer my c64 becuase it gives me 'that'feeling ;-)
Maybe you should try visiting some serious parties? I might have seen one or two people with laptops on C-64 parties... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: Maybe you should try visiting some serious parties? I might have seen one or two people with laptops on C-64 parties...
Quite funny, that he already forgot he's been at Forever Party twice. Speccy, Atari and Commodore64 machines every year in middle of the march, since 2000. Unfortunatelly speccy organisers and atari organisers always bring their PC. Probably because they think they couldn't organise the party without them ;-). Gasman / Raww Arse (Speccy), who came from England brought his laptop too, but I wouldn't complain coz he is one of those people who don't need to prove their 8bit fanatism ;-)). http://www.zxdemo.org |
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deizi
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 95 |
i'd bring my C64 (+1541-II diskdrive) to the party. (haven't been any yet, though). |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
ARE YOU TOTALLY LAMA? YOU ALL TURNED INTO EMULAMERS?!? ;)
No, honestly, I use emulator for everything nowadays. I have no room for having my c-64 connected at the moment. (but I'm planning to mount one on the wall as decoration). I have a Quattro HardSID, so the sound gets accurate both in Sidplay2, Vice and CCS64. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
My favorite Flame-Theme :-)
I abuse Emulators for testing and debugging, but NOT for designing.
That means that I assemble and "wire" Things on a LinuxBox, but once the programs do as expected, the programs get tested and designed on the Real Thing.
The colors are still wrong on PC, no smooth movements etc pp
The Emulators do an good overall Job, but the fine Things, which make the C64 (and C64-Demos) unique, are not
reproduced by crappy PCs.
My Opinion concerning VIEWING Demos is still ANTI-Emulator.
The most important Audience are the Party-People, and if I ever catch an Organizer who shows my Entry with an Emulator...
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Quote: My favorite Flame-Theme :-)
I abuse Emulators for testing and debugging, but NOT for designing.
That means that I assemble and "wire" Things on a LinuxBox, but once the programs do as expected, the programs get tested and designed on the Real Thing.
The colors are still wrong on PC, no smooth movements etc pp
The Emulators do an good overall Job, but the fine Things, which make the C64 (and C64-Demos) unique, are not
reproduced by crappy PCs.
My Opinion concerning VIEWING Demos is still ANTI-Emulator.
The most important Audience are the Party-People, and if I ever catch an Organizer who shows my Entry with an Emulator...
I partly agree with you, but only if running the emulator via PC monitor. The result will indeed be non silky smooth scrolling and unblended GFX (even Pal mode does not look the same)
However connect your PC to a television via Pal converter or TV out and you will indeed get true silky smooth scrolling and proper looking colors and gfx |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Quote: I partly agree with you, but only if running the emulator via PC monitor. The result will indeed be non silky smooth scrolling and unblended GFX (even Pal mode does not look the same)
However connect your PC to a television via Pal converter or TV out and you will indeed get true silky smooth scrolling and proper looking colors and gfx
I did connect my PC via TV-Out to a 1784 Monitor.
The first Time, it was just disastrous picture-quality, and still flickering.
Second Time, the 1784 tilted and my graphic card tilted, too.
I must have connected them wrong :-(
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Quote: I did connect my PC via TV-Out to a 1784 Monitor.
The first Time, it was just disastrous picture-quality, and still flickering.
Second Time, the 1784 tilted and my graphic card tilted, too.
I must have connected them wrong :-(
I initially had a problem with image quality using TV out and this was due to the resolution of the emulated display (eg 400x300, 768x576 etc) compared with the resolution of the TV out (640x480, ...)
I found that certain combinations resulted in uneven size scanlines (1 line would seem ok, the other would seem twice as thick etc)
This is possibly due to the internal up/down scaling via the TVout
It really depends on experimentation combined with the graphic card or/and TV
Using the Geforce 4 mx440 chipset, I have found that setting WinVICE to 800x600 resolution, double size display combined with a TVout resolution of 800x600 resulted in a near perfect display with no glitches and ultra smooth scrolling, just like the original C64 (although I did have to experiment a little bit on the saturation controls)
Funnily enough, setting WinVice to 400x300 non double size, would seem identical to 800x600 double size, but regarding the Tvout component, there were uneven lines..
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
if it wasn't for the bad sid-emulation, i would probably use an emulator only.
but then again, i like my 4 c64s, 2 of them are constantly in use, as i also play out with them. plus, the feeling of using a c64 is different, but that wasn't the question right now. =) |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Emu 4 x-coding and testing, except for floppy stuff; real thing 4 da real thing!!!
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