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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
CSDb: quantify me
CSDb-based quantitative analyses of the C64 Scene
http://www.xentax.com/?page_id=235 |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
Excellent analysis! I'm gonna share it. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
yeah might have been a touch more useful if it contained observations like the fact that the "boom time" could be directly mapped onto a timeline for maximum Compunet activity.
and the drop off fits quite nicely into the demise of said institution.
Raw data reveals very lttle without accompanying historical evidence.
Steve |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
i think i would have mentioned the CNET connection starting in 1985 and climbing rapidly in proliferation until about 1988, by which point many of the the more prolific and capable demo teams had made the transition to commercial productions, and with the introduction of 16 bit machines at affordable prices there were much fewer "replacements" waiting in the wings to take their place coding c64 demos so the decline set in.
Steve |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Steve, agreed. I know there's a lot more to it then meets the eye. Without having all the data, I can't do much yet. As I said, it is pretty superficial. Given the circumstances, this is what I can work with at the moment. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
There are some interesting peaks in there and it'd be cool to find out exactly what they coincide with. eg with newer stuff, do the graphics release coincide with Timanthes/P1 or other graphic apps or maybe new techniques like FLI. Do the upturns in music releases match new editors like Goat Tracker etc
You could spend forever researching this stuff ;)
Pete |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
imho Compunet just reflects the activity, it's not a cause for it. Same for demo groups. I dont know of any mass exodus of them going commercial. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 895 |
You, my friend, are truly ahead of time :) Nice page! |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Thanks WVL, Skate :) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
I love this.
+1 for mapping trends to certain events.
The wave-pattern of GFX and MSX releases needs more analysis too. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
Oswald, being honest mate only someone not actually on cnet would say it wasnt the driving force on the most prolific demo scene of the mid-late 80s.
and being as how pretty much all of the prolific demo writers on it had gone commercial or stopped by '88 i think i really do have a point.
eg. Ian & Mic, Mat & Psy, Bob & Doug, Ash & Dave, Meanteam, Kernal, BWB etc.
These guys alone account for a fairly sizable wedge of the demo relases for 86-88.
I agree with JCB about the stand alone music releases, their increase would almost certainly coincide with the availability of soundmonitor, then rockmonitor, goattracker etc. basically music access for the non coding musicians (like matt gray in the beginning).
Steve |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Ah, I see the qualitative (as opposed to quantitative) discussion has started :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"Oswald, being honest mate only someone not actually on cnet would say it wasnt the driving force on the most prolific demo scene of the mid-late 80s."
I'm glad having not said that.
Btw, you think about CNET as a subscene with all the guys in it. For me its the network. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
Hmm. the graphics graph makes interesting reading. the marked increase in '86 would almost certainly be CNET artists as the were no artists outside of cnet (with the exception of The Sarge that had such output (that i am aware of anyway).
personally i would have expected that the amount should have been higher than the graph says for the 86-88 period, but it is possible that the figures are somewhat affected by the fact that alot of the artists with whose stuff i am familiar were producing more commercial loading screens than non commercial stuff and therefore their output may or may not appear in the "scene" data.
it would be very interesting to map the introduction of FLI and other modes to its resurgence in the early 90's tho.
Steve |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
no Oswald, you are quite wrong there, i don't think of cnet as a subscene, i think of cnet as the MAIN scene that everyone else wanted to get their stuff onto.
because that was in effect the way it was.
Steve |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
You think of it as you want, but correctly: CNET was the main sub-scene. (I guess, how about the bbs-scene in the US?) The whole picture was certainly bigger then CNET, I guess we can agree on that.
No artists outside CNET? Most probably not true.
The numbers also dont show, how demos needed more and more time to produce. These days the energy invested into a fader-routine may equal several 86-88 demos.
Also a few names leaving the scene for commercial work does not explain the shrinking numbers alone. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
Jesus Oswald you really would argue with an empty room wouldnt you?
being as how you disagree, with my artist statement, would you like to point out who else was as prolific (except sarge) as cnet artists in the 86-88 period?
and while you are at it add up the output of just myself, dokk, Bob and sit and compare it against the graph?
i think you would find that us four alone account for a fair percentage of those stats.
Steve |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"would you like to point out who else was as prolific (except sarge) as cnet artists in the 86-88 period?"
Lets go back: You said artists did not exist outside CNET, I said that's most probably not true. Now why should I prove anything regarding polificieny outside CNET? Nice strawman instead of admitting you have over exaggerated the issue.
"and while you are at it add up the output of just myself, dokk, Bob and sit and compare it against the graph?"
Lets see, on average about 400 pictures per year in the era, drops to ~300 in 1990 and to 100 in 1992. Seriously what are you smoking? Have you 3 produced ~100-200 pictures per year ? You are wearing some seriously huge rose tinted glasses. Your role in the scene was much smaller.
Maybe.. just mabye.. the shrinking numbers had to do so much more with the c64 getting old and people moving on ? Than a few 'big' names leaving ?
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
There was a whole world outside CNET, CNET was only Britain, claiming Britain only - oh not even Britain, but only a few people -> owes for the huge output in the golden era is arrogent and selfish and stupid. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: There was a whole world outside CNET, CNET was only Britain, claiming Britain only - oh not even Britain, but only a few people -> owes for the huge output in the golden era is arrogent and selfish and stupid.
To be honest most demos outside of the UK were written with Cnet in mind, they all (nearly anyway) ended up on there, that's how I got all the 1001 crew, Judges, Dutch USA team, TMC... list goes on and on. Check the scrollers in those demos, it's all greets to 1/2 of Cnet or other groups they knew would get the demos via Cnet. Ste and I used to get people from other countries asking us to send them Cnet stuff. It was THE hub for the scene, yeah not everyone in the scene was on it due to locale but they wanted their stuff on there.
That's what Ste is getting at, not trying to claim "we" as Brits are solely responsible for the scene.
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
hmm.
now i think u misread my post about cnet artists. possibly because i missed a ) out.
what i said or intended to say was:
Hmm. the graphics graph makes interesting reading. the marked increase in '86 would almost certainly be CNET artists as the were no artists outside of cnet (with the exception of The Sarge) that had such output (that i am aware of anyway).
which is most definitely NOT to say cnetters were the only artist but they were most definitely the most prolific.
as to your reading of the graph, my reading of it says the peak of grpahics produced was about 160 in the 87ish period and falling off after that until a massive rise in '90-'91
are u sure you are reading the graphics graph and not the music one?
Steve
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Look, I have the data of who created (which group) those releases as well, so we can sort this matter out easily? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
"it's all greets to 1/2 of Cnet or other groups they knew would get the demos via Cnet."
so the other half must have existed outside cnet eh?
when i started ~86 i didnt even know cnet exists :) like everyone else i ofcourse got the demos released there somehow, but releasing demos wasnt really associated with cnet by anyone i knew. the place to release demos were the venlo meetings (and their predecessors), and thats where groups like 1001 and the judges put it out, too :)
as for profilic "demo writers" of that era - Pegasus comes to mind for me first, not a cnetter, afaik :)
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
As some lamer deleted the release entry, here's Marauder's PDF of the analysis, so it doesn't get lost.
http://www.xentax.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/CSDb%20analyse..
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: "it's all greets to 1/2 of Cnet or other groups they knew would get the demos via Cnet."
so the other half must have existed outside cnet eh?
when i started ~86 i didnt even know cnet exists :) like everyone else i ofcourse got the demos released there somehow, but releasing demos wasnt really associated with cnet by anyone i knew. the place to release demos were the venlo meetings (and their predecessors), and thats where groups like 1001 and the judges put it out, too :)
as for profilic "demo writers" of that era - Pegasus comes to mind for me first, not a cnetter, afaik :)
I think you've somehow misunderstood me there ;)
"it's all greets to 1/2 of Cnet" != 1/2 the greets are to Cnetters, there's a big difference ;)
You started in 86, didn't know about Cnet (I probably didn't at the start of 86) but got the demos released from somewhere means you were still benefiting from Cnet being there. If it hadn't been there wouldn't be a place for most of the UK guys to spread their stuff. I also didn't say it was the place to "release" demos, rather a hub for them. It was a bit like here, a central place where nearly anything of any value got uploaded, downloaded by demo fans, coders, traders (and got spread to people without Cnet access) and even software companies.
As for "prolific", you've pointed me to an artist who has at least one release that's a bitmap just reused in someone elses demo. In total over 4 years he's got ~12 releases, including the "reused" ones (who knows what of his in the later stuff by other groups). Not what I'd call prolific ;)
Pete |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:It was a bit like here, a central place where nearly anything of any value got uploaded, downloaded by demo fans, coders, traders (and got spread to people without Cnet access) and even software companies.
and to many, cnet was completely non existant, the place to spread stuff were said meetings. heck, a significant amount of releases (the cracks) never made it to cnet at all.
Quote:As for "prolific", you've pointed me to an artist who has at least one release that's a bitmap just reused in someone elses demo. In total over 4 years he's got ~12 releases, including the "reused" ones (who knows what of his in the later stuff by other groups). Not what I'd call prolific ;)
you seem to have little idea of how famous he was though. his gfx was almost omnipresent - atleast around here -, it has been used in a LOT of demos (the list of credits here really means nothing) too.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"and to many, cnet was completely non existant"
Just like me and that made me arrogent, because it was certainly not the central part of my scene experience, and there are shitloads of guys like that out there. I bet the most of the scene guys even in GB had no access to CNET. I also bet the peak would look almost the same without CNET. It's the middle of c64's golden era, with or without CNET. CNET is just a part of the big picture. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: Quote:It was a bit like here, a central place where nearly anything of any value got uploaded, downloaded by demo fans, coders, traders (and got spread to people without Cnet access) and even software companies.
and to many, cnet was completely non existant, the place to spread stuff were said meetings. heck, a significant amount of releases (the cracks) never made it to cnet at all.
Quote:As for "prolific", you've pointed me to an artist who has at least one release that's a bitmap just reused in someone elses demo. In total over 4 years he's got ~12 releases, including the "reused" ones (who knows what of his in the later stuff by other groups). Not what I'd call prolific ;)
you seem to have little idea of how famous he was though. his gfx was almost omnipresent - atleast around here -, it has been used in a LOT of demos (the list of credits here really means nothing) too.
Fair enough cracks never got on there, it wasn't allowed anyway but I hadn't mixed those into my equation :P
No offence to Pegasus (and I quite like what I've just seen of his graphics) but he can't have been THAT famous if you have to say "at least round here" ;)
If the list of credits means nothing it seems kind of pointless to use it as a point of fact to show me a "prolific" demo creator, then blame me for "having little idea". There are demos of mine missing from here so I don't want to count my total files for that ~1.5 years I was on Cnet.
Basically nobody is trying to say stuff ONLY got produced/released on Cnet, just that despite your experience it was a massive hub for the scene (demos at least) and I thought that was what we were talking about (due to earlier posts about the demo scene)
Pete |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: "and to many, cnet was completely non existant"
Just like me and that made me arrogent, because it was certainly not the central part of my scene experience, and there are shitloads of guys like that out there. I bet the most of the scene guys even in GB had no access to CNET. I also bet the peak would look almost the same without CNET. It's the middle of c64's golden era, with or without CNET. CNET is just a part of the big picture.
Yeah, but don't forget to quote the part where he says "got the demos released there somehow". Strange getting files from a non-existent place ;)
*edit*
BTW, not sure it makes u arrogant, being 10 years old and not knowing about Cnet is a valid excuse :P
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
Oswald apparently you were 11 years old when "the golden age" was upon us.
do you seriously expect me to take your "experience" then as a yardstick for the demo scene?
you are like someone born in 1961 trying to tell The Who what the 60s music scene was all about.
oh and i assume u did read the wrong graph?
the right graph of 160 releases when divided amongst the 4 guys mentioned in 87 doesnt look so outlandish now does it?
Steve |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:No offence to Pegasus (and I quite like what I've just seen of his graphics) but he can't have been THAT famous if you have to say "at least round here" ;)
i dont have experience with how famous he was outside germany, sorry. but seeing how many sceners (and their productions) came from germany compared to other countries... oh well.
Quote:If the list of credits means nothing it seems kind of pointless to use it as a point of fact to show me a "prolific" demo creator, then blame me for "having little idea".
i didnt show you any list of credits and didnt use it to show anything. i simply linked to an artists entry, no more no less. and indeed, if you didnt even *know* him, "having little idea" comes to mind. he was certainly just as known as 1001 or the judges.
Quote:Basically nobody is trying to say stuff ONLY got produced/released on Cnet, just that despite your experience it was a massive hub for the scene (demos at least) and I thought that was what we were talking about (due to earlier posts about the demo scene)
and despite your experience, cnet wasnt all that big. it was a "hub" for a very small minority of sceners infact. mostly wannabee commercial sceners at that, which often had little connection to the rest of the scene - which *was* cracks+demos at this point, there hardly were any groups not doing both, except a small minority, eg the cnet people :)
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1646 |
Haha.. guys guys... You are just too much. :)
Something that comes to mind: http://youtu.be/yzUtPjbRv4U
@MrMouse:
Anyway.. Regarding the original topic, I'd say it would be nice to see some more analysis along those quantitative lines, although my guess is that people would tend to disagree about things as soon as it gets to the more qualitative matters. :) Are you planning to go further with the quantitative analyses somehow, or is this it? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: Oswald apparently you were 11 years old when "the golden age" was upon us.
do you seriously expect me to take your "experience" then as a yardstick for the demo scene?
you are like someone born in 1961 trying to tell The Who what the 60s music scene was all about.
oh and i assume u did read the wrong graph?
the right graph of 160 releases when divided amongst the 4 guys mentioned in 87 doesnt look so outlandish now does it?
Steve
CNET was non existent for me. This is my yardstick you want to refuse based on my age.
You are right, wrong chart(line), 40 pictures per guy per year still sounds too much, tho. Looking at your page here, I'd estimate you have done about 40 pictures max altogether up to date.
Also there's a picture boom in 1990, perhaps we can agree it defies that CNET was repsonsible for the peak & shrink in releases.
Just like Groepaz says I think CNET was a sub-scene not a "MAIN" sub scene but a minority. But I dont have numbers, and dont have the experience to back this up. But during my scene life I have rarely met even the word CNET. So it shouldnt be that huge. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
I think you guys are still misunderstanding what we're trying to get across.
It's not the Cnet was a massive userbase and produced every scene prod, it's that it did produce a lot AND pretty much everything else from everywhere else in the world got uploaded there, downloaded by everyone, spread from there to other countries. Just because you didn't see it because you weren't there didn't mean it didn't happen. It was the sheer number of new prods that everyone knew would get spread around all over the world that encouraged people to keep writing demos and start writing them.. Ok, it wasn't your experience buy don't try to tell those of us who did experience it that it wasn't the massive hub for demos/music/pictures that it was.
@Groepaz, sorry mate, you're mostly talking crap there. You talk about a prolific demo creator, point me at his page then say you didn't mean me to look at it to see how prolific he was? balls :P
As for all the crap about wannabe commercial sceners, more balls. It just happened that a lot of already commercial guys were on Cnet and we used to share code, talk about ways to do thing, get offered jobs. The fact that seems to have not happened to you guys isn't our or Cnet's fault. I got a career out if it eventually, as did a lot of other people, so now I'm not a true scener despite my output at the time? balls.
I've also done cracks, you should contact XXX of Talent/Ikari to ask him which cracks/tools for cracking I created for him. ;)
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
but it doesnt have to be 40 pictures a year does it?
if 4 of us did 20 pictures per year, apparently that would account for 50% of the TOTAL in 1987.
to recap thats just 4 cnet guys doing 50% of the recorded c64 scene art for 87. even if u drop us to 10 each, thats still 4 people doing 25% of the worlds recorded scene art for 87.
now what about the other dozen or so cnetters who were not so prolific?
Ash, Mat, Tob, Cas et al.
and you think with those stats that us moving on from demos to games DIDN'T have any effect on art output to the "scene"?
dream on mate.
Steve
oh and Oswald, your scene life began AFTER the rest of us had finished mate. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:It's not the Cnet was a massive userbase and produced every scene prod, it's that it did produce a lot AND pretty much everything else from everywhere else in the world got uploaded there, downloaded by everyone, spread from there to other countries.
groups like 1001 or the judges surely didnt need cnet to spread their productions, nor did the majority of sceners get their productions through cnet - but through ordinary mail. and even often directly through those already mentioned meetings. cnet didnt play an important role as a distribution channel for anyone outside the UK really. certainly not more important than having some crazy mailswapper in your group :)
Quote:You talk about a prolific demo creator, point me at his page then say you didn't mean me to look at it to see how prolific he was? balls :P
sorry, i mistook prolific for profilic (which isnt even a word says my dictionary =D) - moulded (every day you learn something new eh). yes he didnt have all that much output, but nevertheless he was quite well known for his high quality pictures. might also well been a german phenomenon, as the bands he borrowed his lp covers from also were quite known in germany at that time.
Quote:As for all the crap about wannabe commercial sceners, more balls. It just happened that a lot of already commercial guys were on Cnet and we used to share code, talk about ways to do thing, get offered jobs.
i didnt mean that good or bad really. it was certainly a good place to hang out, especially if you wanted to talk to some pros and eventually become one of them. on the other hand that also means that it ruled out considerably large parts of the entire scene, which like i said, wasnt quite that divided into demos and cracks like it is today. it only was at places like cnet :)
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
All hail CNET. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
You've got a point there certainly, Steve.
Here's the authors of 1986 Graphics Releases (158 releases, I think you just misread the figure, and though it was 1986).
As you can see there's a number of 31 entries without a group or person credited for release at the Group level. That is, there is no Group variable filled in, which is different from the "credits" section. Here's them all:
Metal-Glove
Ghosts'n'Stef
A-ha
Sex Pistols
Tangent Entry!!
Star Trek
Twilight Zone
Jim Steinman
Meat Loaf II
Mindsmear
Sanxion
Robot Sands
Cyborg Pic
Rasputin Picture
Shogun Picture
Super Bowl Picture
The Vikings Commercial
Empire!
Dragon's Lair
We Picture 9
Rage in Eden
Even Passen
Ford Eat Chevy
Dante's Inferno
Dia Show
Judge Death II
Biggles
William Wobbler
Blog Hoggins
Abusers Picture
Rockford
Now, from the first table you are reported to have created 21 graphics in 1986. Perhaps you can find the other guys you were discussing. This is how the releases are listed in CSDb.
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: Haha.. guys guys... You are just too much. :)
Something that comes to mind: http://youtu.be/yzUtPjbRv4U
@MrMouse:
Anyway.. Regarding the original topic, I'd say it would be nice to see some more analysis along those quantitative lines, although my guess is that people would tend to disagree about things as soon as it gets to the more qualitative matters. :) Are you planning to go further with the quantitative analyses somehow, or is this it?
Yes, I do intend to step up work on this and do more quantitation. Some others have already offered assistance. There is a big challenge though in getting it all to resemble the Truth, as databases usually are shaky and fishy if not done right from the start. |
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v3to
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 150 |
steve: envy by all means. i started doing gfx in 1986, living in a small village not knowing anybody who is interested in pixelling. first time i met other gfx artists was 4 years later. gosh cnet feels so unreal from my perspective. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quoting STE'86oh and Oswald, your scene life began AFTER the rest of us had finished mate
That still wont make CNET the thing you see it through your rose tinted glasses. Britain != the whole world. Even if I was 10 years old in '86 you know. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Whilst on the topic of Cnet - RECOLLECTION issue #3 will have a full article on Compunet and some submissions by users from those times.
Grab it on Friday night @ X2010.
Greets |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
oswald despite you thinking i have rose coloured glasses, the bare fact remains that i was there, i was part of it and you for all your wannabe bluster were NOT.
u werent part of any scene on the c64 until 10 years after the c64 had peaked from your list of stuff on here.
so honestly, how the fck CAN you know enough about the original scene to lecture me about it?
oh and see jazzcats above post for the "meaningless cnet" funny that folks write retro articles about something u think wasnt important isn't it?
Steve |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
@ mr. mouse
pete and i have gone thru that list and have assigned releases to about 2/3 of that list.
strangely enuf (or maybe not so) they are mostly cnetters.
oh and the Mindsmear demo has been updated to the 3 screen version we had. (tut, cnet again, what can u do)
Steve |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
@mr. mouse II
Based on the above figures:
out of 127 identified art releases then in 1986 cnetters accounted for 57 of them.
i say based on the above figures because i have id'd several more cnetters in the unknown list u posted and have dated several of Bob and Dokks undated images.
so basically those figures u have will change when u update them, and the % will be higher.
i am not totally sure i would agree with lumping all the 1001 crew in one set either. simply because everyone else is solo.
Steve |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:funny that folks write retro articles about something u think wasnt important isn't it?
nobody said it wasnt important - it just wasnt the center of the world. those venlo meetings for examples were surely equally important. and certainly a lot more important than cnet for those who came from netherlands and germany and not uk :) |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
This is a stupid thread. :) |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
you don't know a shit about cnet. ask knoeki, he'll tell you all the details. ;) jk |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: oswald despite you thinking i have rose coloured glasses, the bare fact remains that i was there, i was part of it and you for all your wannabe bluster were NOT.
u werent part of any scene on the c64 until 10 years after the c64 had peaked from your list of stuff on here.
so honestly, how the fck CAN you know enough about the original scene to lecture me about it?
oh and see jazzcats above post for the "meaningless cnet" funny that folks write retro articles about something u think wasnt important isn't it?
Steve
"I was there, you were not" my dick's bigger yadda yadda. :) & What Groepaz said. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Top 10 scener countries: (view all)
Country: # sceners %
1 Germany 3015 17.4
2 Sweden 1418 8.2
3 Poland 1229 7.1
4 Netherlands 1159 6.7
5 United States 1112 6.4
6 Denmark 880 5.1
7 Norway 625 3.6
8 United Kingdom 604 3.5
Top 10 group countries: (view all)
Country: # groups %
1 Germany 1194 20.3
2 Sweden 481 8.2
3 Netherlands 400 6.8
4 United States 389 6.6
5 Denmark 366 6.2
6 Poland 329 5.6
7 Norway 229 3.9
8 United Kingdom 224 3.8 |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
and those figures prove what exactly? they aren't done by date and they include modern scene which has no UK base whatsoever.
all they really say is that an awful lot of germans claim to have been part of "the scene" over the years like you do.
i have seen "sceners" on here credited for "text" ffs.
it doesn't say they actually produced anything oe when they did.
whereas, the figures posted by Mr. Mouse nicely back up my point to you all the way thru the thread. that a falloff in cnet artists directly affected the total output of the scene in the later 80's.
i mean it has to doesn't it? when cnet produced getting on for 50% of the total scene art at the time.
Steve
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Despite me continually trying to point out (seems like I have to do that a lot around here) that I'm not trying to say everything was produced BY Cnetters/UK sceners, it'd be more interesting and pertinent to the current waffle if the numbers Oswald posted were for the DATE he's talking about not total, when there are plenty of people on here with releases only starting 10, even 20 years after the big decline (and that's not a poke at anyone in particular). |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Compunet did play a crucial role in the demoscene. Ofcourse a scene always existed next to it - but it was also a stage for many to become a professional. (e.g. getting your pictures published in Zapp64 - instant fame). And next to that, the c64 was mainstream at the time - so it attracted many talented people who wanted to be a game professional. Hence the fierce competition, which definitely put the entire scene to a higher level of quality.
I believe Compunet played a (big) role as an accelerator. Without it the scene wouldn't have been so large during the late 80ties, or the years after. People like Ash&Dave working with Maniacs of Noise putting out high quality releases, obviously aiming for the commercial market, has stirred the creativity in the scene a lot.
Personally i got involved in the scene around 87, when my brother was in close contact with the locals from the Breda area (1001, Supersonics, Terrible Two, The Judges etc). Those guys met up monthly on a local meeting, they all knew about Compunet - though i doubt it was their main motivator. (actually, i'm sure for most of those).
I think it's comparable to the 90ties internet era, where youngsters with talent could become succesful professionals, as the field of expertise was new to everyone. That attracted a lot of talented people too, having a similar stage, you could become a 'celeb' in less than 24 hours.
Which makes you wonder if some really ever cared for the 'demoscene' as such, as obviously many just wanted to get into professional game development, for which Compunet facilitated the best stage. When Compunet died, many of those guys left aswell, which kinda proves this point or atleast that they were barely connected/involved with the scene outside of Compunet. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
I honestly don't know anyone who joined Cnet with the thought of getting work instead of just creating demos/music/graphics. The fact that those of us who joined pre-88 were generally around the right age to be needing a job happened to be in the right place to get one doing what we loved. After that I think maybe people did start joining in the hope of getting work but from what I saw at the time the quality of new stuff was rapidly declining, cnet was getting full of lamers and all the best stuff was coming from other European countries. Then Cnet died..
I think the massive decline in "releases" probably includes cracks (as Groepaz includes those)? and considering in 87 there were 1605 games released and by 90 that was down to 863 (gb64 figures) and the sheer number of same game/different group cracks multiplies the numbers. It's easy to work from figures when each demo/bitmap/music is a "new" creation than the same intro used 20 times or the same game cracked 20 times with different intros.
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
Sander i wholeheartedly agree with your post, except i think the last bit is the wrong way round, the demo groups didnt fade out when cnet did, most of the more famous and prolific demo crews left the year before to enter the games industry.
indeed if you look at the stats, most of us were only part of the "scene" as it is defined today for 2-3 years between '85-'88.
however we did not really draw a line between commercial and scene then. you could easily do commercial stuff and still hang out at the shows with the cnet demo crews. and indeed be on first name terms with alot of the top cracking crews :)
in all honesty tho, as anyone who has ever been paid for code/graphics/music will tell u, the first time you are paid for your art, your whole outlook changes, and doing stuff for free does decline.
But anyone who tells you that they wouldnt want to be paid for doing something they love is lying :)
Steve |
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Marauder/GSS
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 224 |
Have you ever thought the massive decline in 1988-90 has something to do with people were leaving school, having less time and starting to work/studying and finding other interests like hunting for chicks and party? At least I can speak for myself and lots of other guys I knew around that time...
Sure we all knew about cnet, though we don't really had direct access to it. Cnet was some kind "different" and played imho for sure a crucial role in the demoscene, an accelerator like Sander said, as we all loved watching the demos created by all those famous cnetters and hence getting influenced by them in writing also demos beside/instead of cracking games only etc. But I think the (demo-)scene would have also evolved the same without cnet...
So generally cnet wasn't the "scene", just a part of... Outside UK it didn't play that "big role", afair. The most stuff got spread by snailmail or on famous meetings like the Venlo-meetings and on great copyparties etc., like I still remember the great Danish Gold party in '87 where all famous crews had a great time in Odense. (:
Anway, the "golden age of 64" was a great time and had a big impact on most of the people being involved in the scene, no matter in which part! And that's why we all love the 64, don't we? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"all they really say is that an awful lot of germans claim to have been part of "the scene" over the years like you do"
You are desperate to make this personal, even after I have ignored already your several childish insults, so lets make it personal:I have put more work into most of my trackmos than you put into pictures in your whole scene "life". Most of your "scene" releases are game pictures, some you got paid for, some you made to get into the paid biz. True scene spirit I'd say :)
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"most of the more famous and prolific demo crews left the year before to enter the games industry."
who exactly ? :) |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
yeah, it a pity u didnt put a bit more work into the last version of p1 mate. u managed to break just about everything that was working when you "borrowed" the routines.
Steve |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
This thread is seriously lame.
The decline of the C64 scene had nothing to do with Cnet whatsoever. How many C64 sceners active during these years were on there in the first place? 0.1%? Jesus.
Let the english belive Cnet was ¤the scene¤ and move on..
God save the queen.
(insert personal insult about random fullscreen graphician here) |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Yeah, I'm not quite seeing the "decline" in the scene in '88 or whenever it was supposed to be.
That's when it just started getting good!
Maybe the number of releases went down, mainly as earlier mentioned due to declining number of commercial games and as follows fewer cracks, but the quality of C64 demos continued climbing for sure! |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 847 |
The moral of the thread, is that divisionalisation is still kicking in 2010, in both the scene and the world! |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Conrad: indeed
Crackers, Demo Sceners, Cnetters, US board scene, mail scene... so many angles to the underground world of C64. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
C'mon guys - let's keep it tidy.
@STE: Yes, i stand corrected, there was plenty of assuming involved in that last paragraph :)
As for further analysis, i'd be very keen to see some kind of 'social mapping'. How sceners and groups were connected socially and demographically.
If someday (scroll/note/magazine) texts from productions become available, i think it must be possible to do this one way or the other. This could reveal some kind of 'importance' aswell, based on the number of times mentioned in different productions. I guess a little brainstorm about this could lead to plenty interesting angles to visualize trends.
I'm still dreaming of smart image recognition software, combined with tags (..) this could theoretically lead to a nice timeline/branch of influentual artists/work. For music, effects etc there must some kind of possibilities aswell.
It sounds very tricky and probably very naive.. As i lack all experience/knowledge in this field, except for the pretty pictures it can generate ;) |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
What should be done is build a more sturdy and scientifically oriented CSDb that has a focus on answering these questions, instead of just collecting C64-programs via sloppy and noisy upload screens with lots of room for missing values, wrong credits, and erroneous data. Indeed, more qualitative data is also welcome, such as c64-text analyses and articles about the c64 (scene) to date and type what actually went on. Problem with CSDb is that is was not build with that in mind, though it should have as that is what a database is really about: to be able to draw sound conclusions. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: yeah, it a pity u didnt put a bit more work into the last version of p1 mate. u managed to break just about everything that was working when you "borrowed" the routines.
Steve
probably, but without bugreports they will stay. time to look into your request tho, I'll do it right away. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quoting Mr. Mouse that is what a database is really about: to be able to draw sound conclusions.
for you. I believe to most of us csdb is the scene as cnet was for others. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: Quoting Mr. Mouse that is what a database is really about: to be able to draw sound conclusions.
for you. I believe to most of us csdb is the scene as cnet was for others.
The scene? That's the comments and forums at CSDb. That's where the social interaction is, granted. But those have nothing to do with the actual database, that collects the raw release data. If you're calling it a database, it should be as robust as possible, in my book. Because then you have a very valuable tool. It has always been very hard for people at CSDb to deal with constructive criticism and dogma rules. So be it. Perhaps one day we should set up a new database. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
No doubt, Cnet was pretty important and big in the UK back then. But i dare to say for everyone else outside of the UK who didnt have access to it, it wasnt that important.
I've heard about CNET back in the day, but it didnt really have much importance to me as it wasnt available here. Agreed, who am I, but still.
And surely you guys arent implying that the UK scene was the alpha and the omega while the rest of the world was busy getting laid, drunk or both.
Which reminds me, what "scene" are we talking 'bout ? Demo or Cracking ? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:The scene? That's the comments and forums at CSDb.
the day "the scene" is only about babble and not releases, i will delete csdb. promised. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: Quote:The scene? That's the comments and forums at CSDb.
the day "the scene" is only about babble and not releases, i will delete csdb. promised.
Like I said, failure to deal with constructive criticism and I hereby add "reading only what you want to read". There is no way the c64 releases can be disregarded, that is not what I am saying at all, but the interaction through CSDb's forums is many times that which you can do through scroll texts alone. Thus, the scene today is alive through those 'new' communication platforms, and less so through c64 releases, imo. But of course, dogma states it is otherwise. Sadly, dogma usually has nothing to do with truth. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
ofcourse the scene is more than releases themselves. however, *csdb* is release centric. its not a social network type of thing, and it doesnt want to be at all. the main and primary reasons for the forums to exist is so things regarding *entries in the database* can be discussed.
unlike cnet, csdb is not the scene and doesnt want to be either :( |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote: Jesus Oswald you really would argue with an empty room wouldnt you?
being as how you disagree, with my artist statement, would you like to point out who else was as prolific (except sarge) as cnet artists in the 86-88 period?
and while you are at it add up the output of just myself, dokk, Bob and sit and compare it against the graph?
i think you would find that us four alone account for a fair percentage of those stats.
Steve
Scoop (NL)? ;-)
1001 (NL) (yes, they also made lots and lots of onefile demos, just like CNet! 8)?
Judges (NL)?
SSS (precursor to Horizon)?
Fairlight (Swe)?
Come on, STE, Cnet was great and a great many wellknown and skilled guys had their start there, but they weren't the sole source for demos back then by far. Producing onefile... err one-SCREEN demos ("Crazy Comets Music Demo" isn't quite One-Der!) in a night or two was THE big thing back then everywhere c64s were used, not only on Cnet!... Which explains the large number of releases, and nothing else!
The more complex demos got, the fewer were released, it's as simple as that. And by definition, demos HAD to constantly become more complex, because technical advance is the nature of demomaking. There's no "it looks/sounds like shit, but the gameplay is great" joker card like with games, it's ALL about skills! OTOH, it's quite similar to games, cause by 1992 the times were also long gone where one sole guy made music, code and gfx for a well selling game in a month or two! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
on top of that.... i stopped by the end of 1989. and in retrospect, i hate me for doing just that. because shortly after demos finally became *really* interesting (ie, more than a pretty crack intro with stolen music) and took off to became what they are today. mid 80s demos almost always look almost silly compared to what happened later. (few exceptions, which we all know ofcourse). mapping the decline of releases directly to the decline of the scene is a really stupid idea indeed, since you cant compare those mid 80s productions to what people did in the 90s at all. |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote: I think you guys are still misunderstanding what we're trying to get across.
It's not the Cnet was a massive userbase and produced every scene prod, it's that it did produce a lot AND pretty much everything else from everywhere else in the world got uploaded there, downloaded by everyone, spread from there to other countries. Just because you didn't see it because you weren't there didn't mean it didn't happen. It was the sheer number of new prods that everyone knew would get spread around all over the world that encouraged people to keep writing demos and start writing them.. Ok, it wasn't your experience buy don't try to tell those of us who did experience it that it wasn't the massive hub for demos/music/pictures that it was.
@Groepaz, sorry mate, you're mostly talking crap there. You talk about a prolific demo creator, point me at his page then say you didn't mean me to look at it to see how prolific he was? balls :P
As for all the crap about wannabe commercial sceners, more balls. It just happened that a lot of already commercial guys were on Cnet and we used to share code, talk about ways to do thing, get offered jobs. The fact that seems to have not happened to you guys isn't our or Cnet's fault. I got a career out if it eventually, as did a lot of other people, so now I'm not a true scener despite my output at the time? balls.
I've also done cracks, you should contact XXX of Talent/Ikari to ask him which cracks/tools for cracking I created for him. ;)
And you're not getting what we're trying to get across: That the demise of Cnet does *not* correlate with the demise of the demoscene (or its activity), and that Cnet neither was crucial to the popularity (or even spreading!) of onefile demos, nor did its demise have any influence in the activity of the demoscene as a whole.
It was really only the simple one-part demos that died out (cause nobody could show off his skills with this anymore after 1988!)... That's all there is to this curve!
I myself did not even HEAR about Cnet until the mid-Nineties IIRC (got my c64 in 1987). I did know Ash & Dave and Ian & Mic, but their demos were only a few in a huge collection...
Call it a precursor to the Internet or CSDb if you will, and just like this it was a breeding ground for good people and a good way to get your stuff out there.... But the same can be said about the BBS scene as a whole! |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting Groepaz *csdb* is release centric. its not a social network type of thing I disagree.
In fact i think we're all socially networking here right now. In fact, we even gather up pretty socially soon at the X party.
How much more social network can it get?
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
X (or any other party) has really nothing to do with csdb. the majority of people visiting X dont take part in this forum either (and the other way around). |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Yah yah, CSdB aint the scene. This is just a database. I know .. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Seems to me that to try and pinpoint the scene to a specific location is useless, be it CSDb, CNet, Internet, or boozeparties like X, we don't seem to agree on it. But what we do have is raw data, and if robust, the data can tell us facts without having to resort to personal and subjective realms of judgement. |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
only way to shut these guys up (who sound amazingly similar to the poms who still carry on about the 1966 world cup :) would be to pick a start date and battle to the death in an epic one file demo hi-score contest. We can all be the Steve Wiebe's to the evil, outdated, mullet loving Billy Mitchell's from SEMEN-NET.
Let's load up our 2x2's and get the pics flowing :D |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
That may be for another thread. By request, some of the gaps were filled in on the above 1986 Graphics data.
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
And while on the subject, here's the data on 1985, 1987, and 1988.
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote: only way to shut these guys up (who sound amazingly similar to the poms who still carry on about the 1966 world cup :) would be to pick a start date and battle to the death in an epic one file demo hi-score contest. We can all be the Steve Wiebe's to the evil, outdated, mullet loving Billy Mitchell's from SEMEN-NET.
Let's load up our 2x2's and get the pics flowing :D
haha, I'd rather be Dr. Hank Chien, the plastic surgeon that came out of nowhere and beat them both! 8)
(everyone: go watch "King of Kong", it's fantastic!) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quoting Mr.Mouse
...or boozeparties like X...
Yes, we drink alcoholic beverages there but it is also a big reunion of sceners.
Calling it a boozeparty is quite denigrating for such an important event organized by people who put their heart and soul into it.
You should come too this time and feel the real scene spirit.
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: Quoting Mr.Mouse
...or boozeparties like X...
Yes, we drink alcoholic beverages there but it is also a big reunion of sceners.
Calling it a boozeparty is quite denigrating for such an important event organized by people who put their heart and soul into it.
You should come too this time and feel the real scene spirit.
Hmm when I say boozeparty, I do not mean it is not important, quite the opposite, X is vital! Let's just say it was a lot of booze for me personally the times I went ;) Without booze, things would not be the same, hehe :) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote: Quoting Mr.Mouse
...or boozeparties like X...
Yes, we drink alcoholic beverages there but it is also a big reunion of sceners.
Calling it a boozeparty is quite denigrating for such an important event organized by people who put their heart and soul into it.
You should come too this time and feel the real scene spirit.
Seconded. I also found that quite rude. Just looking at the sheer amount of awesome productions relesed there makes the label "boozeparty" extremely unfitting.. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: Seconded. I also found that quite rude. Just looking at the sheer amount of awesome productions relesed there makes the label "boozeparty" extremely unfitting..
Allright already. I explained myself. You want a formal apology? I'm sorry you misread me. Like I said in my above post, I think X is vital, and indeed I look forward to seeing the amazing stuff that no doubt will be released there this year. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quote:boozeparty Well, considering Booze Design's smashing appearance last x. I'd say it was a Booze Party :-D
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
LOL Mouse they may have taken exception to your comments, but u just described our 80's commodore shows and events pretty well :)
focus of events usually moved to the nearest alchohol vendor, and it wasnt long before there were half cut dutch, english and swedes leaning on any available surface of the zzap or cnet stand :)
and the "tent city" that used to spring up in Ian & Mics back garden for 3 days in essex was like a United Nations meeting apparently :)
Steve |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Dear folx, just a few things:
1. the decline in releases anno 1988, is due to the fact that people started higher education, and many went on Amiga
2. this thread is just another example that CSDB is outdated and needs a serious upgrade, but has no leadership or team to get it set up
3. its time to cut the cancer if there shall be any good future:
(quote)
As some lamer deleted the release entry, here's Marauder's PDF of the analysis, so it doesn't get lost.
http://www.xentax.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/CSDb%20analyse..
certain individuals dont have the overview and cannot see the future, and have even no idea what they are doing at present time.
either a rebellion will occur, or it will all die a horrible death in swamps of yet more nonsense discussions.
i used to say that i never give up, but really, the end of all that is reached, so there wont be those forever changing sendings to the creator of csdb, and there wont be any team set up or lead by me or anything, there will only be the message: think about how to make it properly, and expell the purists "this is only a database", who hasnt understood a goddamn thing about what the internet is or how people use it.
there will be no reply to this by me. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
"so there wont be those forever changing sendings to the creator of csdb, and there wont be any team set up or lead by me or anything"
lol. ymmd |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Though I agree that the discussion in this thread started immediately on who had what kind of influence on the production history of the scene, this was not my reason to start this thread in the first place. I just want to express it in numbers. Not heresay. I'll have another list coming with releases that have unknown dates or groups. Would be awesome if we could complete the thousands of incomplete entries. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: "so there wont be those forever changing sendings to the creator of csdb, and there wont be any team set up or lead by me or anything"
lol. ymmd
that makes me think if there was a CSDB V2 (not by the csdb guys), could it use the data gathered around here ?
Its really time for it imho. Just look at "advanced" search. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: that makes me think if there was a CSDB V2 (not by the csdb guys), could it use the data gathered around here ?
Its really time for it imho. Just look at "advanced" search.
I think that is possible yes. The data of CSDB should be restructured and cleaned first, but it is still possible. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
technically yes, but legally, unwritten legally ? who owns the data? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I've had the scene on vinyl, before any of you even remotely heard about it.
Fuck you all, seriously.
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Steve, here's some more:
Some have credits in place, but not who released it. Problem with just looking at credits is that in case of multiple contributions, it's hard to pinpoint the creator. Therefore I opted to go by the Released By value instead.
1985 Missing Released by value:
Monty on the Run
Batalyx Pic.
1986 Missing Released by value:
Metal-Glove
Ghosts'n'Stef
A-ha
Sex Pistols
Tangent Entry!!
Star Trek
Twilight Zone
Cyborg Pic
Rasputin Picture
Shogun Picture
Super Bowl Picture
The Vikings Commercial
Empire!
Dragon's Lair
Rage in Eden
Even Passen
Ford Eat Chevy
Dante's Inferno
Dia Show
Judge Death II
Blog Hoggins
Abusers Picture
Rockford
1987 Missing Released by value:
Raid 2000
Eye Spy
Pea-Land
Star Streamer
Rising Sun
Madonna
Horse
Terminator
Samurai Trilogy
Asterix
The Guard
Shock
Zoolook
Thalamus
Gi-Jo's Moody
Parallax Demo
Invasion Pic
Ninja Piccy
Defend the Crown
Driller
Flying Shark
Softguru Adress
NEPA Winter Demo Screen
As It's Summer
Zone Ranger
The Hogg
Mr. Spock
Starforce Fighter
Ariston
Vicky
Starace
Commando
Metallic Avenger
Rogue Trooper Picture
Where's My Kiss
Zoolook
A Tangent Picture
1988 Missing Released by value
Quickshot
Hoppin' Mad Picture
Fernandez Picture
Faith
Maria Whittaker
Tomcat
Tangent
Goofy
Kreator
The Mekon
Zzap Zzaping!
Troll
Ardy the Aardvark Title Pic
1989 Missing Released by value
Zamzara
Hope you can sort some of those out ;)
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
Quote: that makes me think if there was a CSDB V2 (not by the csdb guys), could it use the data gathered around here ?
Its really time for it imho. Just look at "advanced" search.
I have to admit the idea of making a "next gen" CSDb has occured to me, seeing as the current site looks and feels a bit dated. Though in my opinion it would be stupid (not to mention rude) to do this without at least asking the current maintainers whether they want to join in on such an effort.
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Steve, here's the info on One File Demos for that period.
http://c64.xentax.com/img/1985ofd.jpg
http://c64.xentax.com/img/1986ofd.jpg
http://c64.xentax.com/img/1987ofd.jpg
http://c64.xentax.com/img/1988ofd.jpg
http://c64.xentax.com/img/1989ofd.jpg
Man you could just trip over the number of demos those days. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
The following have now been logged and identified.
1985 Missing Released by value:
Batalyx Pic.
1987 Missing Released by value:
Eye Spy
Gi-Jo's Moody
Defend the Crown
Driller
Flying Shark
As It's Summer
Zone Ranger
Ariston
Vicky
Starace
Commando
1988 Missing Released by value
Quickshot
Hoppin' Mad Picture
Fernandez Picture
Maria Whittaker
Tomcat
Tangent
Zzap Zzaping!
Troll
1989 Missing Released by value
Zamzara
Steve
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cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
Quote: CSDb-based quantitative analyses of the C64 Scene
http://www.xentax.com/?page_id=235
Nice overview, don't forget a lot of errors are still here
at csdb to fix, for example release type: c64 demo while
the production is a single file demo, stuff like that.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:technically yes, but legally, unwritten legally ? who owns the data?
depends on where you live =) but generally, who owns the database also owns the data. you cant legally take it and use it, except for a partial quote in scientific work (as with the analysis here).
Quote:I have to admit the idea of making a "next gen" CSDb has occured to me, seeing as the current site looks and feels a bit dated. Though in my opinion it would be stupid (not to mention rude) to do this without at least asking the current maintainers whether they want to join in on such an effort.
there have been plans to do this for a while ... if you think you really can help (ie, spend a *significant* amount of time on it, for a year or two, until its all done) then by all means please contact perff :)
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1920 |
Let move all of this to comp.binaries.cbm!
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: Let move all of this to comp.binaries.cbm!
Hehe. Yeah, or bring back TTD. Anyway, thanks for the comment, now let's get back to the numbers. :) |
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The Shadow
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 304 |
I enjoyed watching the documentary. It made clear many facts. The music has an 'archival' type of melody. Being coded in basic gives a charm to it. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
http://www.xentax.com/?page_id=254
I've continued the research. Still a lot to analyse, but I wanted to share the first of the on-going investigation.
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Interesting read on a first glance. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
You know, the Scener page is not really much use, looking at it now. It just tells you * maybe * when he or she started being noticed by the first credit that was given in a certain year. All the rest has nothing robust to do with creating a new release, especially if it is a musician. Though many exclusive tunes were created for a demo, also many tunes were used in multiple releases. So musicians are usually credited way too much for the same piece, making it difficult to pinpoint the actual creation date of a musical piece, aside for maybe trying to logically link a Credit to HVSC info. God what a mess. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Oh, just to let you in on a draft mindspook of mine, http://c64.xentax.com/downloads/csdb_quantifyme_part2_mindspook.. trying to make sense of what I analysed in a little alcoholic haze during my vacantion, and in a hurry, during night-time. ;) Hope to update my "official" page with an abstract of my ramblings soon. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:So musicians are usually credited way too much for the same piece
its the same for gfx people btw. and coders. (not quite as bad, but still) =P |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
True, like I said, it is especially an issue with musicians, but yes graphicians (fonts, etc) get their stuff used in multiple releases too, and coders will have certain routines used elsewhere (like loaders etc) as well, if not always credited :) |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Okay, just briefly started to do some more analyses of the data in CSDb.
http://www.xentax.com/?page_id=265
CSDb is heavily biased by Germans hehe :P
Seriously, there is still much we can learn. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quoting Mr. Mousehttp://www.xentax.com/?page_id=265
CSDb is heavily biased by Germans hehe :P
Maybe that's no error?
Germany has a wastly bigger population than, say Sweden.
You could try to correlate this with demographics of the various periods.
How many in the age 13-18 in different countries at a particular period of time, etc...
Birthrate might be useful.
Maybe there is research on home computer market share per country?
Interesting work btw. Keep going! |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
True, correlating it with population statistics is on my mind as well. I don't doubt that there will be many people from Germany that set up groups, it would be logical : more people,more groups. It is then all the more interesting to look at groups-per-capita and which country then tops the list. Also, I would expect there are much more groups in the US than listed at CSDb, it could suggest that CSDb is very Non-US oriented. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
To use the example you mentioned: In 1989 the German population was about 79 million, and 44 groups were formed according to CSDb. The Swedish population was about 8.5 million that same year, and 18 groups were formed.
This results in 2.1 groups per million in Sweden, and 0.5 groups per million in Germany that year, a ratio of 3.8 (2.1/0.5) in favour of Sweden. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
also in 1989, the number of US groups worth mentioning was probably around 10 :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: To use the example you mentioned: In 1989 the German population was about 79 million, and 44 groups were formed according to CSDb. The Swedish population was about 8.5 million that same year, and 18 groups were formed.
This results in 2.1 groups per million in Sweden, and 0.5 groups per million in Germany that year, a ratio of 3.8 (2.1/0.5) in favour of Sweden.
The density of c64's in Stockholm was pretty high in 1987. I'd say maybe 1 in 5 had a c64 in my class, maybe more.
At that time in my school of 800 students there were several active "sceners" (the term wasn't used at that time).
I don't know how many schools there were at that time, but it must have been quite a few. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Okay, I've updated the page http://www.xentax.com/?page_id=265
with some updated figures. I've gotten some more Found dates based on reparsing. Also, I've uploaded a figure on the total number of Groups by Base Country. Top 5:
1. Germany (1189),
2. Sweden (483),
3. The Netherlands (401),
4. United States (387) and
5. Denmark (366).
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
That graph that shows the Founded date by Base Country in time gives an interesting glimpse in how the international dynamics may look like. Some countries had early booms in groups founded between 1982 and 1986, like Germany, Sweden and Denmark. Sweden had two peaks, in 1987 and 1989, the UK's founding era seems to be between 1986 and 1989 only, the Dutch lifted off from 1985 to peak twice in 1988 and 1989, while the US peaked also twice, in 1988 and 1991. Germany was at its single peak in 1989, climbing from 1982 on. Denmark had a single peak in 1987.
Also look at Poland, they were there in the beginning in 1987, dropping to almost no new group in 1990, but again having a second life, peaking again at 1995.
It is a pity that only 30% of groups (1747 out of 5802) have the Found dates filled in. It may look a little different when that was filled in. I will try and use an alternative less-robust indicator. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Some more, and by the C64 God it is interesting.
http://www.xentax.com/?page_id=265
The last figure looks at the number of releases per year by CSDb Group pages. For some reason, the number of releases in the figure presented by CSDb in the ( ) at that page is off when comparing with the actual releases listed thereafter, but the differences are small. That's not the interesting part.
That is the figure itself. It shows that 6 countries are responsible for ~ 75% of the number of releases listed in CSDb: Germany, The Netherlands, United Kingdom, Sweden, United States and Denmark. Those countries reached the magical value of 1000 releases per year at any one year.
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