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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
Alkaline mudslide in Ajka
I'm sitting here at work (hence no Facebook and no chatting stuff available), reading several online press about the disaster in Ajka, Hungary: dozens of wounded ppl because of the alkaline mud, and some dead ones too.
I can't hide my anxiety about Poison, Cargo, Leon and all the ppl of Singular and Chorus which live there in Ajka.
If anybody has success in collect infos about their health and their status in general, would be very appreciated. Thank you in advance, crossfingering. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
on facebook I see Cargo and Leon commenting on it 14hrs ago, so they must be fine. Poison lives in Budapest.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=194458&fbid=1311179236.. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
http://hvg.hu/itthon/20101005_timfoldgyar_attort_gat_legifelvet.. |
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
That's terrible :( |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
That is more terrible than it seems :(
I hope them guys are alright. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Just talking to him. Leon will be working on those gates from tommorow 6:00, probably a 24 hr shift. For some days... Fingers crossed. He will drop a post here from time to time to show he is alright. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Considering the toxicity...
"Caustic soda is a bit like boiling water. It can cause severe burns but if you dilute it with 10 times the quantity of freshwater it's not a big deal any more. It's not really toxic and you'll find it in the ingredient list of your shampoo.
The mixture of insoluble minerals that gives the mud its red color and sludgeyness is not so different from potter's clay. It contains a somewhat higher concentration of lead oxide and uranium oxide than in usually present in potter's clay so you probably don't want to make any vessels for food or water from it. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it. BTW, both minerals used to be added to pottery intentionally in the past.
It's a serious incident but the imagery of "toxic red sludge" is media sensationalism. If the same number of deaths and injuries were caused by an industrial fire this wouldn't get much further than the local news.
The reason this stuff is slightly more radioactive than the earth under your feet is simply that the approximately 50% aluminum oxide that was present in the ore was removed so the trace radioactivity in the remaining 50% has been concentrated by a factor of 2. Same for lead."
That said, I'm deeply concerned and hope for the very best. Look out for yourself there, Leon! |
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
Heh, image -> sensationalism, dead+wounded ppl -> something else I guess.
The reddish sludge looks like mostly bauxite to me.
Safe moves, Leon, please! :| |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
The deaths were caused by drowning when the huge dam was ripped apart. The toxic fluid is not harmless, but not deadly either (except if someone drowns in it, all right). I mentioned this just to calm down those who are afraid that the water which flooded the villages may have serious aftereffects. The media (or at least the Hungarian I know of) is indeed puffing this up to the level of "a new Chernobyl accident in the middle of Europe". |
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
I read that the wounds were alkaline caused burns, and, yes, alumina is actually an alkali. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
That's right, people were wounded by the toxic waste but up to my knowledge, only one death was reported till now (three are still missing), and it wasn't caused by the waste's toxic effect. Sure it hurts and burns when it meets the skin, but it could be washed off with plain water.
Hungary's most popular news portal has a banner headline where it is comparing the accident to Hiroshima. I mean, yes it's a terrible disaster, people were hurt, but come on. After the dam is fixed and the streets are cleaned up, everything will be back to relatively normal.
Edit: don't get me wrong, I really don't want to understate the catastrophe, just wanted to attest that there's no need for further panic, and perhaps it's a way to make myself sure that my old pals Leon and Cargo and their families are more than all right. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Why the fuck would you wanna keep a million cubic meters of sludge anyway, no matter how toxic it is? If it was so non-toxic when dilluted with water, couldn't they just have slowly discharged it in a river?
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
Quoting JailbirdHungary's most popular news portal has a banner headline where it is comparing the accident to Hiroshima. I mean, yes it's a terrible disaster, people were hurt, but come on.
Do they really compare this to Hiroshima? Jeez, I see your reasons then, that's sensationalism for sure. "Pecunia non olet" latins were used to say, money has no smell...
Quoting CruzerWhy the fuck would you wanna keep a million cubic meters of sludge anyway, no matter how toxic it is?
Heh, that's part of the chemical process, involving times of resting and deactivating too... |
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Edhellon
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 22 |
Quoting Jailbird:
Quote:Hungary's most popular news portal has a banner headline where it is comparing the accident to Hiroshima. I mean, yes it's a terrible disaster, people were hurt, but come on. After the dam is fixed and the streets are cleaned up, everything will be back to relatively normal.
index.hu is tabloid-style and sensationalist, no doubt, but even they're not comparing to Hiroshima: they're saying that walking around the village what you see feels like what you'd see in a movie about Hiroshima.
And no, after the dam is fixed it will be anything but normal: AFAICS the insurance of the company doesn't even cover 10% of the damages so who's going to pay to fix the houses? Most houses are completely wrecked in the villages. Plus they have to clean the stuff very quickly in order not to soil the land (which provides the living for a significant number of people there) for a long time.
I think there are 5 deaths reported so far and about 6-8 missing persons.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
By "relatively normal", I meant the toxic waste's physical effect on human health, not the disaster's social impact.
Considering index.hu, that headline is deliberately taken out of context, spiced up by mentioning Hiroshima, serves the sole purpose of sensationalism and spreads fear. People don't tend to think rationally when it comes to exaggerated titles. It leads to panic. Just look around on Hungarian forums: people are talking about atomic radiation, deadly acid and what not. |
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leonofsgr
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 15 |
i'm ok...
it's horror... :_(
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
Quoting Leoni'm ok...
it's horror... :_(
I saw :( And nothing can fix it. Now you have a very sad horizon to be inspired for a new pic to draw.
Next Arok -> disastertro?
Have care of yourself when helping on the roads. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
@Jailbird: I do agree, media here is fuckin' retarded as well as the majority of people. Built on the problems of direct victims, I guess reporters are happy that there is someting real to chew on. In a month, all the people whose houses were damaged will sit alone forgotten and try to solve the situation by themselves.
I really would not like to see things fucked up outside like that as I open the door. Radioactive or not, toxic or not, there is some 40km2 (and growing) area affected with red alcali waste there that is everything but not normal. Apart from the red flood instant damage on houses and peoples lives, directly it probably won't damage the health, alright. But rain will stop, waste will dry and dust will fly so everyone will breathe it in in the following years in a huge area. In a decade, we will be able to tell if it really affected people and environment or not.
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This is very-very off and I'm not trying to make any connections with Chernobyl but the whole phenomenon made me wonder about the differences of media reflections here between 1986 and 2010. These present news are just about trying to create hysteria and mess while every tabloid pea-brained asshole hunts for THE BIG STORY and is eager to create some mess, without fuckin' thinking about consequences.
I can remember back in time media was more informal and neutral, they just said facts and after Chernobyl they told us not to worry, the catastrophe was far away and people there do everything humanly possible and die trying so save everyone else. I can remember many trees thrown off the leaves the following days and in the following years a lot of people became sick (no direct radiation but allergy, asmathic and rheumatic symptomes, cancer, severe lung problems etc) in an increasing number.
I'm sure the saw the trees. Media just tried to calm down people repeating that everything will be alright. The speakers were shocked and sad but also supportive like a nurse. The present speakers are nothing more but provocative and arrogant, creating fear if possible. To the hell with them all.
I'm not telling past times were better but people was. Much better, for sure. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: i'm ok...
it's horror... :_(
Man I'm happy that you're alright!
Take care in the horror, bro'! |
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leonofsgr
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 15 |
2. day...
i'm ok...
:_/ |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Location on Google Maps.
What surprises me is the lack of risc containment.
How on Earth is it possible that the failure of a single dam results in such a catastrophe?
The strength of a dam like that and the force of the mud and such is not too complicated to calculate.
Also, it is rather easy to think of what would happen if the dam would collapse and so measures could have been taken to contain the consequences.
Like a moat around the depot or a sheet pile reinforced dam.
Another thing is the amount of water in the mud.
It would have been wise to drain the mud and purify the drainage water.
But hey... that would probably have been too expensive for the aluminium factury, right? :-/ |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Best of luck to you Leon. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
http://galeria.index.hu/belfold/2010/10/05/legifelvetelek_az_at..
look at the trees (yes those tiny bushes are big trees!) on this picture to get an idea of the huge size of the dam. I think everyone rightfully tought it will be strong enough. it was the risk containment in itself. it was also checked up from time to time, etc etc.
about the amount of water, you should read up on how aluminium is made to understand. |
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/10/a_flood_of_toxic_sludg..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRyoXo396Zw
They offered an embarassing lowreparation money, and the population, proudly, refused. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
In the Port of Rotterdam area, we have a depot for contaminated soil and dredging sludge (De Slufter).
From the looks of it, our depot is like 5 times bigger...
No offence meant and none taken, but as a civil engineer working for the Rotterdam Port Authority, I know a few things about stuff like this. :-) |
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leonofsgr
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 15 |
3. day...
i'm ok...
:_/ |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: In the Port of Rotterdam area, we have a depot for contaminated soil and dredging sludge (De Slufter).
From the looks of it, our depot is like 5 times bigger...
No offence meant and none taken, but as a civil engineer working for the Rotterdam Port Authority, I know a few things about stuff like this. :-)
I see no risk containment there either and the dam seems to be roughly the same size.
The dam in Hungary was 65m wide at bottom and was made of stuff which is stronger than concrete. They say it might have skidded on its bottom, coz it was on sludge + heavy rains. |
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Hoild
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 29 |
Someone asked why were there no safety precautions and secondary defenses for the toxic sludge dam, and how could it get so out of hand?
The reason is of course human greed, or as the PC lingo would call it, "cost rationalization".
The originally state-owned industries that produced most of the sludge and operated the containment facilities, were privatized during the mid-nineties. The private owners who bought those factories and lands got an incredible deal from .gov -- they could get it at extremely low cost, if they were willing to warrant the maintenance and upgrade of the containment areas and safety measures. If course they did not skip on such a killer deal.
-Then somehow the upgrades did not happen, and even the maintenance was done with cutting costs wherever possible. And .gov failed to enforce the warranted responsibilities on the private owners.
And so it came about that when the shit hit the fan, it wickedly got out of hand.
Here is a recent announcement from European Left.org with some extra details and info on the Red Mud catastrophe, and warnings about a potential forthcoming catastrophe at a nearby area that also contains hazardous materials (with comparable negligence and "cost rationalization"):
http://newsportal.european-left.org/nc/english/newshome/news_ar..
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Gargaj
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 12 |
Just a part-hilarious, part-tragic article on the matter:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/09.. |
