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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
Cleaned my download directory ...
Cracking in 2011? DRAMA!
Let us start with: YOU ALL SUCK!
Wtf is it that about nobody gives a flying shit on release quality? Are you people actually testing and putting _some_ time into releases lately?
While cracks which obviously received some more time are of nice quality I have also seen an incredible amount of things which could have been done better - regardless of the actual game quality.
It is ALLOWED and DESIRED to put loading pictures, musics and "one page hit space" docs onto the mainfile. Making SINGLE FILE releases.
Nowadays it is an absolute necessity to make all trainers selectable (including level skippers) and to check your crap on a simple NTSC x64 setup.
(And IMHO an added builtin levelskipper needs to disable hi-score saving.) Obvious spelling errors seem to be at the rise as well.
So, I hereby request deletion of:
(L)(SEU) Psykozone +D by Onslaught (2011)
(L)(SEU) Project Argus +PD by Onslaught (2011)
(L)(SSE) Mutilator + by Excess (2011)
(L)(SSE) Nyaaaah! - 15th Anniversary Edition + [seuck] by Excess (2011)
(U)(BDC) The Lost Caves 1-6 Collection +3D by Genesis Project (2011)
(U)(3DC) A Chance in Hell [3dck] by Dinasours (2011)
(U)(SEU) Stone Age Fighter Stone Age Fighter [SEUCK] by Dinasours (2011)
Cant remember - the reason for the rule I suppose:
(L)(SEU) Seuck Armageddon 1 by Wanderer and Crypt (2008)
Legend:
L=Locked
U=Unlocked
3DC=3D Construction Kit
BDC=Boulder Dash Construction
SEU=Seuck
SSE=Sideway Seuck
Will delete the unlocked entried on my own if people don't veto. Rant on any entries I missed to publicly ashame the release group a little more.
Moderation please take on the locked entries.
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
But I thought this is a release database-- a medium in which interested parties archive past and present releases for the Commodore 64, for better or worse... not a release site.
A Chance in Hell was a "Games that Wasn't" entry for a time, I believe. It shouldn't even be on your kill list at all.
I vote veto.
They harm absolutely nothing being archived here and their presence perpetuates a sense of scene continuity. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
The CSDB release standard for cracks clearly states:
Quote:Games made with game makers such as SEUCK (Shoot Em Up Construction Kit), GAC (Graphic Adventure Creator), RDK (Racing Destruction Kit), etc. are NOT considered valid releases.
So there's really no argument there. |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
oh, levelup
totally useless discussion just got +1 |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
Well, the staff have known about those SEUCK releases since early August.
I'm told by a little mouse that some of the former wares guys on the staff don't want to be involved in drama, so they don't delete the invalid releases.
If these releases aren't deleted then the gates are open to throw up anything here again. ;)
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Ah, rulebooks. Good for banging someone over the head with, but not much else.
Quote:If a crack is accepted at atleast (sic) two of the following sites, which have been "official" release sites for atleast (sic) a decade, it will ALWAYS be counted as a valid release on CSDb:
The Digital Dungeon - ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/
Banana Republic - ftp://ftp.elysium.pl/
Antidote - antidote.hopto.org:23 (telnet BBS)
As my interest in the "scene" is quite narrow, I don't frequent these places. Can anyone confirm whether or not any of Zero's "marked for death" releases have a presence on these sites?
J
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
@Slator: useless discussion? As far as I know you are one of the people quite often whining on having so little time. How can your crackers pride even make you touch one of these "programs"?
I was much more expecting phrases such as "but there is so much content added" and a discussion as where to draw the line.
However, it was annoying 20 years ago to even load up one of these game maker results and waste time with it - it still is. FTP Sites btw, accept about any C64 related content, so exceptions given in the rules should always apply, no?
And to what Moloch heard: I wish it would be like that - adding content of "legitimate" fake labels is pretty hard here!
IF you declare and redefine your major label a group of low lifes desperate for byte whoring releases no matter the content - no prob in adding. :)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Magervalp said it all :)
Quote:some of the former wares guys on the staff don't want to be involved in drama, so they don't delete the invalid releases.
lets say, we are not actively trying to find out wether a release is valid. it is NOT as easy as "this is seuck, lets delete it", because the explicit exception to the rule already mentioned in this thread exists (it requires to check the relevant sites at least). we also dont want to delete things "behind the scenes" silently, hence the rules say:
Quote:if there is a release that you think should not be here because it violates said rules, use the "discuss this release" feature and post why it should be deleted and the moderators will then verify it and take care of it. telling the reason in public is important so the releasers know what they did wrong and what they should improve.
...and unless that happens, dont expect us to even consider looking at it.
as for the initial post, please make sure wether these releases qualify for the mentioned exception of the rule (quick check: if its on none of the ftp sites then it certainly does not). doing just that shows that just two are clear candidates:
Psykozone +D (TDD: yes BR: no)
Project Argus +PD (TDD: yes BR: no)
Mutilator + (TDD: yes BR: no)
Nyaaaah! - 15th Anniversary Edition + (TDD: no BR: no)
The Lost Caves 1-6 Collection +3D (TDD: yes, fix in incoming BR: no)
A Chance in Hell (TDD: yes BR: no)
Stone Age Fighter (TDD: yes BR: no)
Seuck Armageddon 1 (TDD: no BR: no)
...and as for the rest, it'll require checking antidote (have to find my notes with my password... i guess =P)
last not least, incase you spot a clearly invalid release (due to the rules, and not present on the majority of relevant sites), then after posting the above mentioned notice, you may safely delete it, too :)
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 211 |
*applauds*
"delete this or that" discussion solved in 7 replies without feces flying over the table.
Guess all of us guys are really growing up.
;)
(@groepaz: give me a hard time over this post if you have to but it is a serious compliment :)) |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
@c0: yes, useless discussion, as there are like 32768462874237846 other things that are more important to fix in this database than 7 releases of dunno 50k+ ?
please wipe out all the non-scenerelated homebrew crap too, then... in 2064 we can speak again about seuck, if we didn't die on downvoting, that is. Maybe ICS or Manik or some IDE-Guys uploaded re-cracks? please check...
3 persons met randomly at a busstation, what a nice sceneevent...
I don't like crap releases myself, and I would never do a kind of seuck game myself if it hasn't got something special. It is no drama, it is just populism.
rules are rules, so make it so....
and yes, WE ALL SUCK...
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:please wipe out all the non-scenerelated homebrew crap too, then...
if it is not a valid release according to the rules, then the same applies as i already said about these seuck things: point them out, and they might get removed. unless you dont point them out: get lost.
Quote:Maybe ICS or Manik or some IDE-Guys uploaded re-cracks? please check...
please read the rules again. usually for those there is no reason to remove them at all.
Quote:3 persons met randomly at a busstation, what a nice sceneevent...
and again, point them out. alternatively: go whine somewhere else. |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
yes, I will go to whine somewhere else. while at it, could you then please delete everything that I put to this site please? thanks!
kisses |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:could you then please delete everything that I put to this site please? thanks!
would you please read the rules? the answer is: NO |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Again, Groepaz being the usual drama queen.
Just go and delete the releases that you speak of instead of spouting crap in the forums. Why hesitate? If these are the rules, go and enforce them...
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 211 |
Quote:All information and material found here is entered and maintained by the registered users
So it says in the disclaimer.
I'm with Groepaz on this one. He is a SYSOP, SYStemOPerator and not RELPOL, RELeasePOLice.
Just try to imagine how it would be if at any given free hour of his time he would scour through the releases and delete everything he didn't like and gave a weekly update of what he seemed unfit for the scene.
(we've all seen bbs's like that in our days)
Quoting the rules and pushing people to enforce them is not greek drama imo. |
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Hoxy
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 5 |
Being one of the unknowns without a scene history usually means noone really have much regard for any opinions one might have, but I thought I would present my view on this site to give some perspective.
To me this site is two things, a historical archive and the place to find out what is happening today in the scene.
For the historical part I more or less tend to see it out of a very archeological view. Every little detail is important and shouldn't be wasted.
So to me every release is important. The release rules are good, but perhaps they shouldn't regulate what stays here or not? I would like to see everything left and instead any release that isn't according to the rules shouldn't count on the group's credits.
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
as far as i remember these crack-release-rules came up in a time when csdb was really flooded by crapreleases done by a lot of guys that suddenly thought they wanted to be "big bad crackers". that time i did my knoeti in cave "release" to make fun of those guys. i don't think that anyone gets hurt if onslaught releases a half-decent seuck from time to time or gp releases fanmade boulder dash levels that a lot of people like to play.
i know, real scene guys (which i'm not) really like to stick to their rules --- rules here, rules there, rules everywhere ;) but i guess everyone with common sense should know that rules are always there for a reason and it hurts no one if they are bended every now and then.
and i also appreciate that (almost) everything that is released on c64 finds it's way into this database.
so let "the list" be judge over those cracks and as long as noone abuses csdb for uploading tons of shit keep all this stuff up here. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:If these are the rules, go and enforce them...
that will happen right after we have decided what consequences are appropriate for those who knowingly, and frequently, break them. stay tuned. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2583 |
I am with spider-j here. It does not hurt anyone; if someone downloads it and does not like it - just delete it. There are way bigger issues here - I would prefer if more energy is put into filling gaps of information, correcting mistakes, and uploading missing stuff, than testing releases if they really fit the rules 100%. Like said before - you don't like it, you delete it. Other people might like it, though, even if it is a SEUCK or BDCK game. And it IS part of scene history, after all. |
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
I'm with the bug, the hoxy and the spider.
IMO, the newer releases, even the ones that bend the rules, have merit and value because of what comes before the game-- the intro, the scrollers and all of the rest. To rid the Db of them would be a travesty.
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Quote: Quote:If these are the rules, go and enforce them...
that will happen right after we have decided what consequences are appropriate for those who knowingly, and frequently, break them. stay tuned.
oh, that gets it going...
so you are not only the executive authority but the judiciary, too? :-D awesome....
level up, +2 on sillyness of thread.
------------------------------
doing a release for the c64 scene in 2011 - some hours
getting the stuff uploaded to csdb - some seconds
having a thread like this - priceless....
PS: I wiped the concerning files already, maybe the pure information may reside for historical sillyness, please |
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The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
doing a release for the c64 scene in 2011 - some hours
getting the stuff uploaded to csdb - some seconds
having a thread like this - priceless....
for the rest there's MASTER CARD :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:so you are not only the executive authority but the judiciary, too? :-D awesome....
congratulations, you have just learned how every website, ftp, bbs works.
Quote:level up, +2 on sillyness of thread.
you should stop drawing conclusions from your own posts and applying them to the entire thread.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
C-64 Scene Database excluding C-64 releases made from the scene. Perhaps the title should be C-64 Database instead.
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 323 |
I dislike SEUCK games but I usually download everything that's posted. if the file/release/music/gfx/whatever is shit, it gets scratched from my disks.
oh, the dramas..
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
At the very least it is quite inconsistent to apply specific standards of quality to cracks (and, furthermore, not actually of the crack+intro itself, but the character of the GAME that is cracked) while there is no such rules for other kinds of releases. Any little contribution that vaguely resembles a "demo" may stay no matter how poor it is in some peoples eyes.
Why not be consistent and simply let the users define what quality is for themselves? I am sure everyone is able to delete releases from their own harddrives that they don't like for any sort of reason. In addition, a release that sucks will get low votes and people will throw bad words at it and state that "this is not a proper crack" etc etc so it is not that "anything goes in the scene" or that everything will go straight to hell just because you can put it up here freely. No need for the database to take on the role of almighty enforcer of Standards to handle an issue of quality that is rather up to the scene as a whole to determine and "enforce". If some people want to play the more specific game of following the crack standards, they can certainly do so anyway, i.e. some groups or releases may be excluded from charts in certain magazines, and so forth. I just can't see how that is relevant to CSDb in any way, especially not since it excludes productions that are clearly "scene productions" in some sense (as Jazzcat pointed out).
Personally I think the current policy is lame and characterized by cowardliness, as if people were afraid of low quality productions. If there is any problem at all, wouldn't that rather relate to a (potential) lack of high quality releases, rather than the existence of low quality releases?
In any case I think the current policy quite obviously creates more (silly) problems than it solves. :) |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Thank you frantic,
that actually hits the nail on the head perfectly.
well and wisely spoken, there is no need for a self-placed scene-police. The scene always regulated itself.
And I am not speaking about this seuck stuff, but regulations like they are handled on this platform generally.
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
Sigh... but funny to see the discussion works its way a diff. direction than I thought :)
Let's see. All release rules of magazines are stating for about 20 years that SEUCK and similar game maker games will receive 0 points. Back then when the rule was applied it was even discussed to make it -5. In 2008 CSDb outlawed the uploads of such releases as well due to people having found back that shit and starting to release a shitload of crap. History just repeated itself there.
Now "ordinary" (read as: "not involved in the first release scene" as Jazzy likes to call them) people want the opposite.
As CSDb is _NOT_ seeing itself as a _first release_ site the rules here are not for points. They state a site policy. Clearly. Even to ME - who wrote THE LIST for a few issues, came up with the FTP sites in replacement for the boards (BIG WAOWAO back then!) and not being in the 1st release biz for quite some time now.
IMHO these releases show how retarded "major elite groups" became (and that was supposed to be my main point).
Yes, even these SUCK games belong to the "scene history" now as you released them (and PROBABLY therefore even belong here). Still, YOU are the makers of this history and just creating these entries should make you shiver and whine.
@frantic: IMHO a very optimistic view. People actually DID "badword" for some time and hence exactly THIS rule resulted from it. Also I was not addressing the game quality, but the crack quality. With everybody exomizing nowadays one could really take the saved time and spend it on spellchecking and proper linking.
@slator: "regulation" as in "Federation against SEUCK releasers" demos?
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
@C0: Optimistic, in what sense? I didn't say we can expect high(er) quality releases *if/because* we take the rule(s) away, if that was how you interpreted it. I just meant that I find the rule (at CSDb that is) quite impotent and useless. Dunno if that is an optimistic view? :) |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
good for you this sucky editor just killed my wall of text and I don't want to retype it.
so the excerpt of it:
psykozone was released because it is a salesversion and you can buy it at psytronik. It features nice additions compared to a normal seuck game, like a superb loaderpicture, digimusic and a nice startscreen.
project argus was a 2 sided gtw game that features 6 (?) levels with nice "cinematics" and nice musics which got onesided and mem-degarbaged etc.
we had an internal discussion about releasing or not, but we agreed on that they are worth the release as those are far beyond any normal seuck game. we also agreed on that we never do seuck again and that was right after doing them and before this stuff here.
I knew that some ppl might dislike it, but I can stand that, a lot of ppl seemd to liked it. over 400 downloads just on csdb alone and no harsh comments or raggings.
We don't like gamemakers either and my nagging in this thread was not about the actual 2 ons releases but about the way it was presented. it was absolutely disrespectful and arrogant, at least I got it this way. I have to admit that you at least put the stuff to discussion and did not delete the stuff secretly. I still believe that there are other more important topics were our energy is needed than this crap here.
yes we are retarded, but we all are more or less as we are still using this crappy piece of overaged hardware.
some releases are weaker than others, true. but we keep a standard at least and from time to time we pick up some gems and let them shine again. That's why we are still here, we like it the way it is and if some stuff sucks we speak about it and hopefully find a solution, like we always did in all those years otherwise we would be dead and burried like nearly all other platforms.
count me in for an anti seuck demo anyway. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
To not enforce this discussion I will only answer to this part.
Quoting Slator
it was absolutely disrespectful and arrogant, at least I got it this way.
It was absolutely meant that way. You should know me.
The constraint about "mastering of the crack" on my initial text is still valid. I refer to "normal releases done badly" as well as "SEUCK releases done well".
Only found a rule to get rid of the latter though :(
But hey - I follow rules and wake you up. Good.
PS: Promise you never touch SEUCK again? :)
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I didn't have the time and energy to read all the post in this thread, but what is there really to argue about? For the love of God, gamemaker-releases? Don't you have any shame in your bodies at all? There have been bad releases for ages (unplayable previews, pure introlinks), but lately, things have risen to a completely new level. SEUCK and BDCK-games, semi-basic shit, unreleased (available) crap from 1982. And this on a scene where there are better games made than in ages. Concentrate on those instead.
I'm all with Count Zero on this one. Ok - I see little practical need for NTSC-fixing in these days, but for the rest i'm all in. But to summarize this - the problem isn't that C0 wishes to delete these "releases". The problem is that you had poor judgement enough to release them in the first place. Shape up. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
The problem is I see this DB trying to do more than what it should. It has a policy with cracks yet has no such detail on other release categories (explained by Frantic earlier as inconsistent).
THE LIST - which covers these first releases is something I have done for an incredibly long time. When I decided that we would "use" CSDb as one of the release sites, one of the reasons was that CSDb had the means to stimulate conversation about the release (that FTP lacks). THE LIST will continue to use CSDb, Antidote and TDD as release sites. Hopefully CSDb can try improve its rules to not be so much of a judge on quality but more in cataloging and preserving scene releases. After all, the name implies "C-64 Scene Database", try adhere to that rather than Selective Scene Database. |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
2f: if you had read this thread you might have discovered that is was not about releasing gamemaker games alone but about something else.
if I say I dislike a 0.99:1 copy of a rambo loading picture, does it make us even then?
maybe it is enough of this craptalk now?
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