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2007-09-12 18:35

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3051

Mac, Win, Linux etc.

User Comment
Submitted by Sledge [PM] on 9 September 2007
Now, all I really miss is a Mac OS X version of this painter ;)

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 10 September 2007
Yeah, this Windows-only bullshit needs to stop! Elitepaint, Timanthes, Starcommander, OxPaint, CCS64 - What the fuck is wrong with a little crossplattform support? Don't we as c64- sceners know exactly what it's like to be part of a non-supported minority?
Just use Java, QT, RealBASIC or some other crossplatform toolchain for christ's sake, it's not a science anymore these days!

User Comment
Submitted by JackAsser [PM] on 10 September 2007
for OUR sake, not for christ's sake... :D

User Comment
Submitted by Style [PM] on 10 September 2007
Agreed dk. For now Ill sit here with my Ubuntu box crying into my cornflakes :)

User Comment
Submitted by Scout [PM] on 10 September 2007
For the penguin lovers: Install Wine?

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 10 September 2007
"What the fuck is wrong with a little crossplattform support?"

I tell you what the fuck is wrong with it. It would need to learn a new language and port over 10.000 lines of code in the case of p1. thats wrong with it. that would be 2x-3x all the effort invested so far, to support a minority.

User Comment
Submitted by hollowman [PM] on 10 September 2007
i guess the lack of crossplatform support says something about the users of the other platforms, or the suggested languages and frameworks

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 10 September 2007
Hollow, could you stop pissing on my leg at every possible chance for a change? Thank you! ;-)

Oswald: Why'd you write it without crossplattform in mind in the first place?
That's the problem - People don't think about their choice of tools before they start coding, and then they say it's too much work to port their stuff afterwards!
RealBASIC and especially Java are extremely rich languages these days, I can't think of anything that a c64 image editor or Converter would need that's not supplied!
Or just make your own GUI using SDL like Goattracker or Raydomat, it's fully portable without ANY hassle!

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 10 September 2007
Deekay: because I was unaware of the fact that many ppl doesnt use win, and because I had zero knowledge of modern languages when I have started out and because p1 started out as a little tool for Jailbird wich only knows koala and only can set pixels. anyways according to dcmp p1 works in wine, except one issue which could be fixed imho if the zoom mode would reside in a child window. I think you should try wine regarding 0xpaint aswell. there are chances it will work.

Hearhearhear!

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 10 September 2007
If you want crossplatform tools then make them. That's all there is to it, really. You could bug the coders for the sourcecode and then port it to your favourite cross-platform lib if you wish, but demanding that other people care about whatever platform you're on when they are developing software for free is a bit rash IMO, especially when the projects often start out on a small scale as Oswald examplified.

User Comment
Submitted by Scout [PM] on 10 September 2007
Quote:
demanding that other people care about whatever platform you're on when they are developing software for free is a bit rash IMO

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 10 September 2007
<irony>
I'm sorry if I offended anyone by releasing a windows only tool.
</irony>

:)

I don't know why I need to explain or defend myself, but still; This tool (like Oswald's) was developed for a very small audience. In this case myself. I made it because I wanted a tool that suited my own needs, and in 2003 there were fewer choices than there is today. (Was there any besides ElitePaint?) Also, I wanted the tool fast, and used VB 6.0 since that language gives fast results. At least for me, since I worked with VB on a daily basis.

@Deekay: I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but I get the feeling that you're upset because I didn't have other platforms than Windows in mind when developing this tool. Or perhaps your thinking was in a general sense? Anyway, in this case I didn't develop the tool for you. Only for me. My alternative to releasing it to the public was simply not releasing it. And then noone would benefit from it, and this discussion would never take place. Good thing?

If anyone tries to emulate, please let me know if it works, or not. Thanks!

User Comment
Submitted by Frantic [PM] on 10 September 2007
@Oxidy: Thumbs up for the nice explanations. Some people have to learn not to take stuff for granted.

User Comment
Submitted by Sixx/f4CG [PM] on 10 September 2007
Linux sucks.

User Comment
Submitted by hannenz [PM] on 11 September 2007
looks good - but - hey - i am another linux user.... i don't want to spill oil in the fire here but: anyone tried under wine?! is it working without too much effort?

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 11 September 2007
I'd like to apologize to Oxidy. I did not mean this as a personal attack, it was a general rant on the state of xdev-software in the c64 scene! I'm just really fed up with seeing yet another Windows-only tool that I can't use, that's all!...
So Windows-using c64-Gfxians can now choose between ProMotion, ProjectOne, Elitepaint, Timanthes and OxPaint - MacOS Users get zilch, the only thing that is remotely a pixelling tool (not primarily for c64 though) is Pixen!

I've heard this reasoning time and time again - "I've only done something for myself and I'm sorry it uses .NET/DirectX/VisualBasic/proprietaryM$shit6430, so it only runs on Windows" - Witness what the industry calls "Vendor Lock-in". Why are you using their technologies when you know it's proprietary? Do your Webpages also only work on IE? Well, why not, it's the most popular browser, who gives a shit about Firefox and Safari!
In the c64 scene there's more users of alternative operating systems then in the general public. Maybe you should think for just a second before choosing your tools next time?
Other people seem to be able to do it, even Windows-users! WvLs Pinball Dreams tools are made in Java, so is Crossbows Demosorter. Why do you think they teach Java at Uni and not proprietary M$ technologies? Hell, even for the stuff i programmed myself for my Job (and had programmed!) i made sure it's portable (BASH-scripting, Imagemagick and Java), and that was a completely fixed environment! But who knows what the future holds, it's always good to atleast have the option of switching the OS!
Strangely enough, people that make Software for alternative OSses always seem to have no problem supporting Windows, too! Just think of VICE for a start! So why shouldn't it work the other way around? ;-)

After all the ranting here's something productive: RealBASIC can import VisualBASIC projects. You can then compile for Windows, MacOS X and Linux! Would be cool if you could give it a try!

Oh, and btw, about bitching and moaning about free stuff: ALL the stuff on CSDB is free, so by your reasoning this means I cannot complain about anything.. Besides: We put shitloads of time into making our editors and releasing them for free, too, thank you very much - And guess what: Contrary to Windows-only shit *every* c64-user can use them! 8)

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 11 September 2007
deekay, give me realbasic and we'll see ;)

User Comment
Submitted by Skate [PM] on 11 September 2007
nice tool, unnecessary discussion.

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 11 September 2007
No problem DeeKay. I can understand your frustation.

I've never used RealBASIC, but I'm downloading atm, and will take a look at it.

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 11 September 2007
First of all: Java is slow and bloated as fuck so it's not really an option for someone like me who actually cares about performance (and I imagine I'm not the only one in the C64 scene). It's bad enough I have to expose myself to it at work. I can appreciate the language as such, but unless you're coding heavy server stuff something even more high level, like Python, is more suitable (feels about as slow, but is much easier to develop in). Please, no Java applications.

That being said, I personally don't understand why so many people have favoured unportable solutions. It's almost as if they have just picked the first technology they happened to stumble upon and stuck with it, instead of making an informed choice of toolkit etc. Most multiplatform toolkits are much easier to work with than doing native Win32 code.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 11 September 2007
"It's almost as if they have just picked the first technology they happened to stumble upon and stuck with it" - exactly my case :) anyways what do you expect this is not the software industry, just a bunch of hobbysts trying to make some tools.

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 11 September 2007
I wouldn't call Visual Basic native win32 code. Eventhough you can chose to compile as native, rather than pseudo code.

What multiplatform toolkit is easier than VB? I can't think of one.

Regardless, the discussion is getting dull.

User Comment
Submitted by Hein [PM] on 11 September 2007
Deekay, how much does a second hand PC with *free* Windows cost these days?

Stop crying like a spoiled kid, please, geesh, start pixeling!

User Comment
Submitted by Fatfrost [PM] on 11 September 2007
Deekay, why don't you just install windows on your Mac? or do you have a poo old g5/4/???
i have vista and osx on the same machine,and on vista
project one works fine.
Cheer up. lol.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Hein, Fatfrost: Has it ever occurred to you that not using Windows is not a matter of not being able to afford it but rather a choice? And no, I will never ever buy way overpriced mainstream-Intel-Shit from Apple - and even if I did i wouldn't install Windows on it, just like i never installed Virtual PC! I'm using a Mac to get AWAY from Windows (and Intel), what's so hard to understand about that?

Why is it always only the Windows-users, for whom everything is fine and dandy, that think this discussion is "pointless"?

Oxidy: Thanks for trying RealBASIC! Let us know how it goes! ;-) There's a multitude of RB-extensions for every possible need, I would venture a guess many of them replicate certain special VB-features!

As for Potatoshop: I've used this for pixelling before (right now working on the PD-gfx f.ex.), and it does work. However, for everything regarding color-limitations you have to put it through a converter and then fix the converter bugs again - that hassle can be avoided if you use a real pixelling program made for c64 limitations such as Elitepaint, P1 or Oxpaint!
And as for Java being slow: First of all modern Java-compilers are pretty decent, second: What kind of performance do you think a program needs that's almost entirely about setting single pixels? Third: There's Java2D and -Imaging classes that should be pretty useful (and fast) for jobs like this!

User Comment
Submitted by Trazan [PM] on 12 September 2007
About time to move this OS/Platform war to a forumthread instead of arguing in the comments about the release itself.

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
I agree, this is just getting way out of hand now. Go babble about OS's on a PC gamer forum instead rather than here.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Where'd you get the idea that this is a "OS/platform war"? Is a discussion about racial equality a "race war"? Is a discussion about women's rights a "gender war"?
Why exactly should we not have this discussion here, what would be the point of having it in some "PC Gamer forum"? Games are commercial and cost millions to develop, both of which isn't true for the c64 scene!
And no, I won't take it to the forums, it's right here where it belongs..

I'd venture a guess both of you are using Windows.. It's always so annoying, isn't it, those bitchy people not using the OS-with-abundant-software that you're using complaining about the lack of software support!.. You just don't know what it's like and frankly you just don't give a flying fuck! That's what is generally referred to as "ignorance", and as they say, it *is* bliss after all, right?

User Comment
Submitted by JackAsser [PM] on 12 September 2007
@deekay: "And as for Java being slow: First of all modern Java-compilers are pretty decent, second: What kind of performance do you think a program needs that's almost entirely about setting single pixels? Third: There's Java2D and -Imaging classes that should be pretty useful (and fast) for jobs like this!"

I completely agree and favor Java as the cross platform language of choice. And as for Java being bloat I can agree at some points but on the other hand the redistributable JRE take approx 15Mb. It's not THAT much for anyone. You don't need the JDK to run Java software.

To compare:

The Python windows installer takes about 10Mb.

qt pre-compiled binaries from Trolltech are not free so you need the free open source which is 47.6Mb + mingw which is 69.1Mb.

I know I'm really biased here but really, is Java THAT bloat and slow as people tend to claim compared to other so called cross-platform languages?

User Comment
Submitted by Sander [PM] on 12 September 2007
'What's so hard to understand about that?' - that you're being demanding over someone else's (free) work? None ever asked any atari group to port a demo to c64, just because we CHOSE not to buy an atari..

I always sense a little war to win with every opportunity the iKnow-people feel neglected. So i second Hein, on you being a spoiled kid; it's like you want to take the bus, but you want it to drive by your house...

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 12 September 2007
JackAsser: I work with it. It's shit slow. Just starting up a program takes forever, and the jvm eats up huuuge amounts of memory just for running a small commandline tool. There are a few areas that Java isn't very suited for. Normal desktop use is one.

User Comment
Submitted by d0c [PM] on 12 September 2007
i hate java its like a magnet, it sucks all the viruses to the os that uses it, specially the windows os. as this aint enough it also suck cpu, i once liked java but today i dont. i hope Oxidy continue to use what he use now and dont use java.

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
DK:
Actually I DO give a flying fuck. Personally I don't like how Microsoft is pushing their OS's, but unfortunately (or in the UK anyway) PC's are it's system origin and that we have to follow up on their next version, which makes me sick.... the fucking greedy cunts they are!

Like when I was at school (and now at uni), all systems there are PCs only, which therefore I have no choice but to have a PC at home to transfer my work.... see how difficult it is? And hell no I'm not spending another £1000 or more to get a system that's incompatible with my current storage and projects.

Well, for that matter I just cannot confirm that I don't care about OS's, life is hard isn't it?

Personally I blame Gates and Jobs for all these arguments.

User Comment
Submitted by Fatfrost [PM] on 12 September 2007
Have you tried 'Parallels' for osx? you can run windows progs in that. or was it another prog...well one of them works coz i ran some pc demos with it on a g5 (power pc)....but if oxidy will be kind enough to release source code maybe someone would kindly include it in a vice distro! just imagine a cross development version of vice with pixeler,sprit ed and music ed+ assembler, which would allow you to try your creations out instantly, that way an osx port would always happen and everyone is happy, oh wait...i forgot it's c64 scene, no-ones happy....lol ;-\ just critical mothers......

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Sander: I sure hope the irony of you calling me a spoiled brat doesn't escape you, when in fact is is you Windows-users who get ALL the xdev-software, all the Emulators, all the software you could ever need while MacOS-Users basically get nothing (some notable exceptions!)...
Please, do tell me just in how far I am "spoiled", I'm dying to know!...
Your comparison of an Atari Demo is completely wrong. This is a tool for c64-users - why should not every c64 user be able to use it? If someone does a demo or tool on c64 that does not run on 1541-IIs for some reason, people do bitch and moan and there'll be a fixed version out within hours, that's the way it goes and it's happened multiple times in the past! So what exactly is the difference here?

And please refrain from pigeonholing me as "the iKnow people". Multiple Linux-users agreed with me here, in what drawer do you want to squeeze them in? Besides: I hate Apple more than any PC-user right now probably, but I still think OS X is the smallest pile of shit of them all! ;-)
As for the bus driving by my house: I want to be able to take the bus AT ALL, but I can't. That's the problem!... I don't think all the people that write Windows-only xdev tools intended me to buy a new computer just for their software - If yes, that'd be the epitome of ignorance!...
One final word on Java: Java isn't as slow and bloated as it used to be. It does need quite a bit of RAM, but performance is surprisingly good. Don't tell me, I know what I'm talking about, I've had a Java GUI program developed for professional needs and it had to be fast and responsive and it was!
And this comment about Java sucking virusses is complete bullshit. Compared to Win32-based Visusses the number of Java-virusses is ridiculously small, furthermore with a current JRE they probably shouldn't work anyway...

Summing up: This vendor lock-in bullshit has to stop somewhere. And I'd say something non-commercial like the c64-scene would be one of many places to start it!.. ;-)

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
"This vendor lock-in bullshit has to stop somewhere."

exactly. stop locking away yourself of zillions of great c64 tools. use win atleast as an alternative.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
java sucks because many ppl have to do administrating jobs in java based client-server setup style enviroment which fucking sucks and sucking fucks, and believe me you would rather have 27 headshots than touch that kind of shitty stinky ugly motherfucking piece of prg, which sends your input over 3000km to a server which tells you after 7 seconds back that you can stick up your input in your smelly warm ass. also it forces you to have 3 window opened just to keep it runing, and takes 1 minute to start it up. I hate java because all of that. :)

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oswald: \o/! chill out man, but thanks for your honesty. ;)

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oswald: Well, we're not talking about server-sided Java, thank you very much. We're talking about standalone programs. You know, the kind that I had made, which launched in like 3 seconds and was extremely responsive! Can we stop the incoherent Java-bashing now, this is really quite offtopic!

User Comment
Submitted by Sander [PM] on 12 September 2007
Daniel, Since you made a 'fundamental' choice not to use anything intel related, you inevitably limit yourself from many things, as widely known. Such a principle is a luxury choice imho.

The comparison to the atari demo was not wrong, as the tools were made on a specific platform too. The uber-compatibility idea is feasible due to the limited number of c-64 hardware, and it's not that standard at all. Taking this idea to non-c64-based tools, is a different thing - whereas people will work with the languages and environments they know, it sounds like you try to force them doing different.

And i'm sorry for using the 'iKnow'-word, it was too tempting ;) No offence.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
deekay, conrad, I just tryed to light you up why some ppl dislike java ;) I believe aswell its fast and kewl offline. saw quite some great demo-fx-test-tools from jackasser / bubis and they were charming but still those administrative softwares makes me shiver whenever java enters my mind :)

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 12 September 2007
*sigh* :)

Regarding Java:
The discussion is heated as it is, and no more wood is needed on the fire. But I don´t like Java that much, and I can say with certainty that I won't convert 0xPaint to Java.

Regarding REALbasic:
I've installed it and done some brief testing with the conversion tool. I got hundreds of errors and todo's. It's not as easy as I first anticpated. Also, the concept of MDI (multi document interface) is not supported "as such" in REALbasic. You can add a class with MDIWindow properties, but can't have a base window containing other forms. I'll have to rethink the design if I'm to move forward with this. Normally I wouldn't give this much further thought, and would have continues with VB only. However, REALbasic intrigues me a bit. At least enough to experiment with it further.

@Higgie: Thanks for your input.
* Right mouse button pen bug noted. Will fix.
* Drawing ouside zoom mode. I actually like this "feature", and think the pros outweigh the cons.
* The key movement problem in the zoom window is something I don't get. It works as expected in my end. Perhaps we can discuss that in more detail over IRC or something.

@Archmage:
Believe it or not, but I don't have a mouse-wheel on my mouse. :)
Setting the palette is a reasonable request. Currently I've used the exact palette used in VICE. Whether this is the most accurate or not, I don't know. But I guess not.

@Oswald:
"smelly warm ass" haha.. you've always been good with words.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oxidy: You make me a happy little DeeKay! ;-) Just try it, if it doesn't fly that'd suck, but atleast you did try, and I'm grateful for that already! ;-) If you need any beta-testing for the OS X build, let me know! So far I've done all I could for anybody willing to port any c64-related software to OS X, be it beta-testing, Icon-Design or else..

Sander: It's not a "luxury choice", it's a political one. Just like some people don't buy brand X because they don't want to support a certain company for whatever reason (unethical behaviour, exploitation of poor countries, environmental issues etc). Speaking of "luxury": What do you think is more luxurious? Windows with P1, ProMotion, Elitepaint, Timanthes and OxPaint or MacOS X with Pixen? 8)
I don't quite see in how far I limit myself through not using Windows and especially Intel (when there's AMD). In fact there's a shitload of commercial software packages and Shareware for OS X. One of the few fields that's left where it's seriously lacking is surprisingly enough homebrew xdev c64-stuff! Hell, i can get more crossplattform homebrew stuff for Dreamcast and Gamecube than I can for c64! If that's not sad, i don't know what is!
The Atari comparison remains completely wrong, because an Atari Demo is not c64-related in any way, hence there'd be no point in demanding a c64-version!
I'm not forcing anyone to use anything, I'm just trying to tell them they'd force ME to use Windows if i want to use their program by offering only a Windows-version! Completely different thing!
Besides, I'm not saying "you have to use environment X". Like said, there's a multitude of ways to go crossplatform: RealBASIC, Java, Python, QT, WxWidgets, SDL and many more.. Just don't use proprietary vendor lock-in shit, everything else is fine by me!
All I'm asking for is that people think just for a minute about portability before starting their own c64-xdev-projects! Is that really too much to ask for? It's not like RealBASIC is any harder to code than VisualBASIC!... Or that Java is harder than C++! Or OpenGL is harder than DirectX! It's just a bit different in some respects, that's all!

User Comment
Submitted by wile coyote [PM] on 12 September 2007
@iAN CooG 'occupies a shitload of HD space' - I have 2x Samsung 120GB Hardrives, so space isn't really an isuue :)

As for the arguement over Apple vs PC. Well I have to admit, I wished I'd brought an Apple in the first place. Until my Windows XP becomes obsolete, I'm stuck with it. Maybe then I will make the switch.

On a side note: I have a feeling Sony could be working on an operating system of their own. It's already on the Playstation 3. Given time, I sure the day will come when Sony will announce they have their own take on Windows that will be superior to MS Windows. This I would like to see. Watch MS share prices nose dive :D

... 143 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2009-02-25 21:22

Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411

Okay, drop the "usually" from my earlier post and replace it with "can also". Been there, seen that :) And for the record, I use mainly Linux, and I reacted like you described when Timanthes came out. Looks good, pity about the platform, but well...

That's what I was saying before, there are these and those people on every platform (or even "topic" for a more general matter).

2009-02-26 00:35

null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645

Quote:

When i saw that nice looking SidPlayer for MacOS, i thought "Looks nice, too bad there isnt a windows version".
And guess what. That was it.

yeah, same here. would love a port, but meh. what's the use whining about it? only makes it less likely to happen if the creator is anything like me.

------------------------------------
http://zomgwtfbbq.info

2009-02-26 09:28

Majikeyric

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 83

Making a cross platform tool is a big effort deserving salutes, crying for a port on another platform is stupid, you want a port for your platform ? Just do it yourself I provide the sources ! I'm currently making cross tools essentialy for my own use why would I port them for platforms I don't care about ? to satisfy 4 people in the world ? No interest in doing so. Hey guyz the tools are free and your are not already satisfied with that ??? When you will pay for the tools and I will want to make money I will reconsider the question... :D

I prefer working on 3 tools for 1 platform than working on 1 tool for 3 platforms.

(And yeah .NET rules! :D).

2009-02-26 15:31

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299

Quote: I have actually considered doing a PSP pixeling program. Shelved due to lack of time and limited audience.

Speaking of pixeling on handhleds... There is that nice painting program on Nintendo DS and iPhone i make gallery for (look into my sig). Well, its not pixeling, painting rather, but if you are into graphics a bit you might want to take a look.

----------
http://colors.collectingsmiles.com

2009-02-27 10:20

Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647

WINDOWS SUCKS!!!! THAT'S A FUCKING FACT AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU CAN SMOKE SOME COCAINE WITH YOUR ASS!!

2009-02-27 10:34

Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317

Frantic: Windows sucks in the same way as Linux as Mac. It's only a operating system, addresses other requirements that Mac os X or Linux.

Guys let's stop this stupid arguing.

2009-02-27 10:43

Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647

Haha.. Dude, I was just kidding. I hope that was obvious to everyone. (For example, you don't really smoke cocaine.. ;)

2009-02-27 10:56

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360

it's called crack dude.... and some here seem to be actually smoking it =P

2009-02-27 11:14

Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647

With their ass?

2009-02-27 11:26

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299

Quote: With their ass?