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Perff Administrator
Posts: 1677 |
Release standards for cracks in CSDb
There have been made some new rules about what types of cracks we allow to be added to CSDb. (See the reason in the Preamble section below)
To begin with we post the rules here, but they will soon be includes in the general rules page.
CSDb release standards for cracks
---------------------------------
The following rules were collected and assembled by the CSDb staff, with help
and acknowledgement of a few people which represent the active cracking scene
of today and/or have profound knowledge of the cracking scene of the past:
- The Ignorance (Nostalgia)
- Jazzcat (Onslaught)
- Burglar (SCS*TRC)
- Jihad (Hitmen)
- Widdy (Genesis*Project)
- Ian Coog (Hokuto Force)
- Taper (Triad)
Preamble:
---------
In the past CSDb always tried to keep the philosophy "we shall not judge
release quality" and we relied on the self-awareness of our users to do just
that. However, the recent months showed us that this approach doesn't work
anymore for the cracking scene. Since there is no more "authority" (such as
countless disk mags in the past) that reviews and ranks cracks, which is
somewhat fundamental for the competitive nature of the cracking scene, more
and more sub standard releases surfaced, some of which we do not consider
scene releases at all anymore. And our users started to question wether all
and everything is considered a scene release these days, and demanded us
to put an end to all the flaming and crap releases.
So these rules were designed, loosely related to the old firstrelease rules
(which were valid for almost 3 decades) with some more stuff added, and some
other stuff changed to reflect the nature of CSDb (for example we do NOT only
consider actual firstreleases, nor do we keep out "fake" releases per se). In
some ways our rules are a lot less restrictive, and in other ways we demand
more. However we tried to make sure that stuff that we think is "ok" does not
clash with these rules, and that they aren't terribly unfair to newcomers
either.
We didn't design these rules to discriminate against newbies (or anyone else),
but instead we think that rules like this are a necessary element in the
learning process of every cracker.
Goals:
------
- Motivate people to do more quality cracks. Quantity is nothing, quality is
all.
- More tension in the cracking scene.
- Reward skill and effort
- The best cracker should win. not the loudest, not the most annoying, not
the most persistant.
- Getting rid of rerereleases, 100%,101%,102% versions and similar nonsense.
- Motivate crackers to release games that were never released before and make
better versions than anyone before
And last but not least:
- Motivate people to upload more old cracks
General Rules:
--------------
- These rules are only valid for cracks (by our definition) released after
1/8-2008. whatever was released before must only comply with the old rules.
However, all old rules also apply to new cracks, with the following
additions and changes:
- Definition of a crack:
Until now a crack was loosely defined as "unauthorized modification" of a
program. these standards extend the definition as follows:
- A crack MUST be preceded by a crack intro, with the only exception of
tools, which most people prefer without intros.
- "frozen" games are NOT considered cracks.
- The crack MUST have substantial value over the original. linking
your intro infront of some freeware game aint cut it. We atleast expect
decent training and packing. If a game was released before, subsequent
releases must have substantial value over previous releases.
- The appearance of the game must NOT be altered in any way. No changing of
ingame texts into your groups name, no altering of the hiscore tables.
Altered hiscore tables are acceptable if the game has an option to restore
the original content.
- If the game has a hiscore table, we expect a hiscore saver. Hiscore savers
MUST be disabled when trainers are active.
- If there are docs available (which we might check on the net) then we
expect them to be included.
- Cracks should be pal/ntsc fixed, unless the game itself does not allow it.
Obviously, when the crack is pal/ntsc fixed then the intro MUST be fixed
too. Please notice that there is a strong emphasis on "should be fixed",
and games which are trivial to fix (such as many "oldies") MUST be fixed.
Also notice that unlike the traditional firstrelease rules, we demand *all*
cracks to comply with this rule, including previews and the like.
- Ingame text MUST be translated to english, with the only exception beeing
games which contain huge amounts of text. (such as adventures)
- Any crack added to CSDb must be a valid release according to these rules.
Whatever else will get deleted. "Oldschoolers" please notice that we do
NOT make a difference between "full" releases and "previews" etc as it is/
was commonly done in the firstrelease scene. We think that these days every
release deserves the same effort, preview or not.
- So called "recracking" is generally and strongly frowned upon. For this
reason each crack should somehow tell what kind of original was used (tape/
disk/cart ...). Recracks are only accepted if no original is available and
all existing cracks have bugs. (If in doubt, search harder for an original
or crack a different game.) In this case the release MUST state what other
crack was used. Credit where credit is due!
Notice that this rule was the most objected one by our reviewers, who most
of the time would like to see recracks completely banned. However, we don't
want to do that (yet) - but to stress it again: recracks should be a rare
exception!
- If a crack is accepted at atleast two of the following sites, which have
been "official" release sites for atleast a decade, it will always be
counted as a valid release on CSDb:
The Digital Dungeon - ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/
Banana Republic - ftp://ftp.elysium.pl/
Antidote - antidote.hopto.org:23 (telnet BBS)
Note that uploading alone doesn't count, the release must be accepted by
the particular site and be moved out of incoming for everyone to download.
You also must point out yourself wether a release is available at the above
mentioned sites since the CSDb staff will not actively (or regularly) check
them.
This is an intentional "loophole" in these rules. if those sites accept
a release, then we must consider it beeing a valid scene release, no matter
what our own rules say. (Keep in mind though, that those sites by themselves
have rather strict rules on what they accept and what not)
- Games made with game makers such as SEUCK (Shoot Em Up Construction Kit),
GAC (Graphic Adventure Creator), RDK (Racing Destruction Kit), etc. are NOT
considered valid releases.
- Games that are written primarily in basic will NOT be considered a valid
release, unless significant effort has been put into it, such as translating
huge amount of text. Classic commercial titles such as "pirates!" are an
exception to this rule, while most magazine type-ins are not. if in doubt,
WE decide.
- Generally every group can only release ONE version of a certain release.
further updates are prohibited and will get deleted (see exceptions below).
The 48 hour rule:
-----------------
- After releasing a game, group A has 48 hours to release a possibly updated
and/or fixed version of the same release, and during this period is also
allowed to "silently" update its CSDb entry. Any updates after these 48h are
prohibited and will get deleted and the original file restored. Please notice
that this opportunity is meant for trivial fixes, such as a wrong filename, a
typo in a scroller etc, NOT for uploading improved versions (like additional
trainers). Also notice that if we notice that this rule will get abused we will
remove it completely. As a countermeasure every time a "silent" update is made
it must be stated in the comments, and explain what was changed.
- If a second group B releases a better version within 48h, it will "steal" the release
from group A who originally added it and the previous version from group A will
get deleted. then the clock will get restarted for group B
- If during these 48h someone is able to point out an older release of the same
game (which must exist in CSDb, so an entry must have been created and the release
must have been uploaded) which is better than the version that was just released,
the new version will get deleted.
- If within 48h anyone can prove that a release is a recrack, although the release
itself doesnt say so, the release in question will get deleted.
- If group C releases an even better version AFTER the 48h expired, it will NOT
"steal" the previous release, and both versions will stay.
How we judge if a release is "better" than another:
---------------------------------------------------
- Onefiling. We expect cracks to be one in one file if it is possible.
- Size. Good packing is expected (that includes levelpacking multiload releases)
- Generally releases should work on a stock C64 with 1541 drive, everything else
is a bonus.
- The size of the main file should not exceed 202 blocks so it can be loaded
by stock kernal load.
- Filecopyable. track/sector loaders should be replaced so the crack can be
copied file by file.
- Amount of trainers. notice that so called "double trainers" will make your
release worse, not better. Every double trainer will DECREASE the number of
trainers we will count for your release. (so a release with "+2" as in "in-
finite lives player 1" and "infinite lives player 2" will not only be counted
as "+1", but instead be counted as if it had no trainer at all)
- Translation to english. Translating lots of text is a huge effort which will
always earn you a big plus. If there is only a little bit of text, such as a
score display and "get ready" stuff, then a translation is EXPECTED.
- Bugs. Bugs that exist in the crack but which do not exist in the original
will earn you a big minus. On the other hand, fixing bugs which are in the
original will give you a plus.
- Releases made from a real original will always count more than recracks,
obviously.
Strategy Guide:
---------------
For those who are new to the cracking scene, here are some hints:
- Before you start with a crack, check what other versions of that game
exist. Don't crack it if you dont think you can make it better than all the
old versions. Do not rely only on CSDb for reference wether something has
already been released. There are a lot of games which have been released
that are not added to CSDb yet. Some sites you may want to check are:
The Digital Dungeon - ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/
Banana Republic - ftp://ftp.elysium.pl/
Antidote - antidote.hopto.org:23 (telnet BBS)
Gamebase - http://www.gamebase64.com
C64Games - http://c64games.de
The List - http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/onslaught/thelist.html
- Use the original game (many are available for download on the net).
Recracking is generally frowned upon. Generally only consider extending or
fixing someone else's crack when no original can be found and existing cracks
all have flaws. And even then, maybe still find another game.
- Spend time on testing your release. Typically that would be considerably
more time that it took to make the actual crack. You are in no hurry, so
make sure everything works correctly.
- If you are into competition, wait until some group releases a game, and
then try to make a better version.
- If you want to make a first release, try to make it the best version ever,
so no other group will be able to beat you in 48h
Final Words:
------------
These rules will get updated and finetuned over time, especially when we see
that someone is trying to exploit them and find loopholes. Please realise that
WE have the final word, and that WE decide wether a certain exception on the
current rules will be made or not. if in doubt, choose a different release
platform than CSDb.
Last not least, nitpicking on the wording and interpretation is not tolerated.
If in doubt, ask and we might update the rules to make more clear what we
mean.
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 598 |
wow
dunno about all this
I can't imagine a cracker breaking a game with a printed manual of those "must do this, can't to that" on his lap checking out of he's sticking to those 'rules'.
on the other hand, this might be encouraging the crackers to make better quality releases, although I have few problems with some of the rules stated above.
but I guess with an innovative idea like this there will always be protest but all in all I think it's worth giving it a try.
I'm very interested in how this project will turn out like.
just this question that popped in my mind. what if let's say crossbow of crest decides to make a seuck game. and richard bayliss does too. I think I know who's release would make it into the CSDb and who's wouldn't. I know it's stirring in the pot but I just wanna say I'm affraid these situations could happen frequently you know.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
what if let's say crossbow of crest decides to make a seuck game. and richard bayliss does too. I think I know who's release would make it into the CSDb and who's wouldn't.
that's easily answered - the above rules would not apply to these since the above rules are for CRACKS. richards seuck game (ie the "original") would get it's entry, and if anyone dares to crack it, the entry of the CRACK would be subject for deletion. (that said, even the old general rules don't encourage uploading seuck crap =P) |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 598 |
okay, that's sorted out then |
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The Overkiller Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002 Posts: 342 |
- Motivate crackers to release games that were never released before and make better versions than anyone before
FINALLY !!! I think someone will cry reading these rules ...
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003 Posts: 113 |
I got as far as 'There have been made some new rules'... Then i lost interest |
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
It´s 1st of august, not 1st of april... |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002 Posts: 2924 |
I'm trying to understand how these rules help CSDb "catalog all scene releases". That statement has been made by numerous people, including a few on the "knowledgable scene list".
Also, a spellchecker helps when writing large documents. ;)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
I'm trying to understand how these rules help CSDb "catalog all scene releases".
cataloging all of $whatever is a futile idea without defining precisely what $whatever actually is (and as such, it's often easier to define what's not). |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005 Posts: 271 |
I am not in the cracking scene, but I think this has a point. Back in the days stuff like this would not have been spread very much, simply because it lacks in quality, so why should we care to preserve worthless non-effort "cracks"? |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Finally! Yeah, I can live with these rules. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
This is from the new rules:
Quote:
- The crack MUST have substantial value over the original. linking
your intro infront of some freeware game aint cut it.
And this is a comment from Ian Coog in Go-moku:
Quote:
Check GTW, almost all free previews were released by groups in any era. It's another way to make programs available to a wider audience.
I for first never heard about the author and the game, probably never would have without this release because I don't follow vic20 forums and the author never announced it anywhere.
What are your views on that? |
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wreg Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004 Posts: 679 |
scout, please quote the whole paragraph... it is all in there
at least one group from todays scene should be able to train and pack the thing |
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
The following rules were collected and assembled by the CSDb staff, with help
and acknowledgement of a few people which represent the active cracking scene
of today and/or have profound knowledge of the cracking scene of the past:
- The Ignorance (Nostalgia)
- Jazzcat (Onslaught)
- Burglar (SCS*TRC)
- Jihad (Hitmen)
- Widdy (Genesis*Project)
- Ian Coog (Hokuto Force)
- Taper (Triad)
That text together with this list of "sceners"... Í better rest my case.
- Motivate crackers to release games that were never released before and make better versions than anyone before
FINALLY !!! I think someone will cry reading these rules ...
I do too.
Pogo Joe +
Now I don't have to see this kind of crap (among many others) in the future.
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Quote: scout, please quote the whole paragraph... it is all in there
at least one group from todays scene should be able to train and pack the thing
Okay, and if a game can't be trained? Like the Go-moku game.
Anyway, this was a question for the release-judges or sceners, not outsiders. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: Okay, and if a game can't be trained? Like the Go-moku game.
Anyway, this was a question for the release-judges or sceners, not outsiders.
isn't that go-moku just some lame basic crap?
Quote:- Games that are written primarily in basic will NOT be considered a valid
release, unless significant effort has been put into it, such as translating
huge amount of text. Classic commercial titles such as "pirates!" are an
exception to this rule, while most magazine type-ins are not. if in doubt,
WE decide. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Quote: isn't that go-moku just some lame basic crap?
Quote:- Games that are written primarily in basic will NOT be considered a valid
release, unless significant effort has been put into it, such as translating
huge amount of text. Classic commercial titles such as "pirates!" are an
exception to this rule, while most magazine type-ins are not. if in doubt,
WE decide.
No, it was made in assembler.
I hope when judging releases your vote will not be based on assumptions (like this one). |
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
Quote: isn't that go-moku just some lame basic crap?
Quote:- Games that are written primarily in basic will NOT be considered a valid
release, unless significant effort has been put into it, such as translating
huge amount of text. Classic commercial titles such as "pirates!" are an
exception to this rule, while most magazine type-ins are not. if in doubt,
WE decide.
Just look who has released this crap.. This tells all... :P |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: No, it was made in assembler.
I hope when judging releases your vote will not be based on assumptions (like this one).
well, in any case, its freeware and you only intro-slapped it.
also, you didn't even bother adding the "trainer" the coder added on his homepage. (POKE 2946,15)
so, there is zero added value compared to the original. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Quote: well, in any case, its freeware and you only intro-slapped it.
also, you didn't even bother adding the "trainer" the coder added on his homepage. (POKE 2946,15)
so, there is zero added value compared to the original.
So if I understand correctly;
If somebody releases a freeware game on the net or wherever, it doesn't count as a scene-release when a cracking-group releases it.
Because the coder of the original game can't add the game to CSDb (UNLESS he's a scener!) the game won't get spread any further.
A scene-release would've helped spreading it (according to Ian Coog) to a larger audience.
I guess you guys can debate on this to adjust the rules.
Btw, the poke for Go-moku isn't a cheat. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: So if I understand correctly;
If somebody releases a freeware game on the net or wherever, it doesn't count as a scene-release when a cracking-group releases it.
Because the coder of the original game can't add the game to CSDb (UNLESS he's a scener!) the game won't get spread any further.
A scene-release would've helped spreading it (according to Ian Coog) to a larger audience.
I guess you guys can debate on this to adjust the rules.
Btw, the poke for Go-moku isn't a cheat.
the gomoku-poke IS a trainer (you get to understand the AI, which makes it easier to beat the cpu). |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Okay, touché.
But now answer the rest.
I'm not trying to be a nag, I'm just wanting to get some things clear. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: Okay, touché.
But now answer the rest.
I'm not trying to be a nag, I'm just wanting to get some things clear.
heh thats ok ;) its good actually.
Anyway, because its not basic and the game was not created by a scener, if it was up to me, I'd allow it.
It should be replaced with a better version within 48 hours though. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Okay =)
Here's another one.
If a game is available on Gamebase64 but it was never released as a scene-release, does it still count as a real scene-release when it is released after all? |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: Okay =)
Here's another one.
If a game is available on Gamebase64 but it was never released as a scene-release, does it still count as a real scene-release when it is released after all?
depends on the game and the version I'd say. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Okay, clear.
What a relief, discussing these things without teh drama :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1160 |
Quote: So if I understand correctly;
If somebody releases a freeware game on the net or wherever, it doesn't count as a scene-release when a cracking-group releases it.
Because the coder of the original game can't add the game to CSDb (UNLESS he's a scener!) the game won't get spread any further.
A scene-release would've helped spreading it (according to Ian Coog) to a larger audience.
I guess you guys can debate on this to adjust the rules.
Btw, the poke for Go-moku isn't a cheat.
Maybe have some more leniency if the game original doesn't previously exist in CSDB? |
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The Overkiller Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002 Posts: 342 |
Quote: The following rules were collected and assembled by the CSDb staff, with help
and acknowledgement of a few people which represent the active cracking scene
of today and/or have profound knowledge of the cracking scene of the past:
- The Ignorance (Nostalgia)
- Jazzcat (Onslaught)
- Burglar (SCS*TRC)
- Jihad (Hitmen)
- Widdy (Genesis*Project)
- Ian Coog (Hokuto Force)
- Taper (Triad)
That text together with this list of "sceners"... Í better rest my case.
- Motivate crackers to release games that were never released before and make better versions than anyone before
FINALLY !!! I think someone will cry reading these rules ...
I do too.
Pogo Joe +
Now I don't have to see this kind of crap (among many others) in the future.
The problem my little baphomet's bitch is that future is now. You pointed as example garbage did over 4years ago... What about pointing garbage
did nowadays....
Ghostland +3
Pucman +2
Stellar Wars +
Warlok +4 (and you accuse others for recracking!)
Yeah! we all hope to don't see this carp anymore! |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 620 |
Quote: The problem my little baphomet's bitch is that future is now. You pointed as example garbage did over 4years ago... What about pointing garbage
did nowadays....
Ghostland +3
Pucman +2
Stellar Wars +
Warlok +4 (and you accuse others for recracking!)
Yeah! we all hope to don't see this carp anymore!
Yes, and by having seen the flood of crap from various Retarded groups, the new set of rules were made.
None of the listed releases in your posts does belong to scene-standards and never did.
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Axis Account closed
Registered: Aug 2006 Posts: 43 |
a release is a release..
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote: a release is a release..
yes. and just like not every car is a racing car and not everyone who makes music is a musician (although especially those who are not like to believe they are) not every release is a scene release. |
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
...and i think to myself....what a wonderfull world.... *sing* We are all waiting for the latest hitmen cracks from 2008...:P |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
good for you... and that is relevant to this thread, how? |
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
I (and a lot of others here) think so... ;) But i think we all have to give up to hope... :( |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
i dont think too many people missed that hitmen stopped releasing cracks 10 years ago (for the same reason many others did so at that time).
and i still fail to see how thats relevant to this thread. |
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Axis Account closed
Registered: Aug 2006 Posts: 43 |
the selfmade gods of csdb (not the scene) have spoken!
i can't read anymore this bullshit about scene rules done by the the jazzcat clan..
you make only a csdb rule .. not more!!!!
and bye!
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
ofcourse, like every release site we make our own rules, no more no less |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 3048 |
I don't belong to Jazzcat clan (if it ever existed, that is ;-) and still strongly support the idea of having strong and uncompromising standards for cracking scene of today (and not only for cracking scene actually). It's good that after few years of chaos and anarchy CSDB and cracking scene is sending the signal of understanding. Signal that we are taking things seriously and that together we are trying to make scene better and more focused on quality. Because the major part of image of the scene is mirrored in the stuff that scene produces.
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004 Posts: 639 |
I guess this means I can enable cracks in the latest releases list preferences again. |
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
Quote: i dont think too many people missed that hitmen stopped releasing cracks 10 years ago (for the same reason many others did so at that time).
and i still fail to see how thats relevant to this thread.
You got it....! :P |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004 Posts: 639 |
Quote:the selfmade gods of csdb (not the scene) have spoken!
i can't read anymore this bullshit about scene rules done by the the jazzcat clan..
you make only a csdb rule .. not more!!!!
and bye!
Fair enough, but a lot of people don't really seem to dig your bullshit either. I fail to see *any* reason why one would not want to preserve a certain quality level of releases.
By the way ... no-one forces you to release your stuff here.
Oh and what RadiantX said. |
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Marauder/GSS Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006 Posts: 224 |
A release site? On a release site bad stuff gets nuked, but the information about is still available.
I always thought CSDb wants to preserve history and is a site dedicated to gathering as much information as possible about the productions, the groups, the sceners and the events in the Commodore 64 scene.
I sure can live with that rules (at least it increases quality I hope) as I'm not really into c64 'cracking scene' anymore, but seems to me contrary... are there any rules coming up for demos, musix, tools as well? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 3048 |
Quote: A release site? On a release site bad stuff gets nuked, but the information about is still available.
I always thought CSDb wants to preserve history and is a site dedicated to gathering as much information as possible about the productions, the groups, the sceners and the events in the Commodore 64 scene.
I sure can live with that rules (at least it increases quality I hope) as I'm not really into c64 'cracking scene' anymore, but seems to me contrary... are there any rules coming up for demos, musix, tools as well?
This way there is a bigger chance of raising of the quality standard of what get's actually produced.
CSDB is not "social network" where anyone can register and add his crap into the database and everyone get's his small part of fame. Where the loudest group gets the biggest atention etc. etc. Scene was always build on competition. And every competition needs some standards and rules.
CSDB is not the primary place of social interaction of the sceners. Because scene is not CSDB and CSDB is not the scene. There are parties, individual communication etc. CSDB is most actively mirroring activities of a part of the scene active on internet but there are many sceners who aren't actively participating in the "society" that has formed around it. Those "invisible" people are, however, producing stuff that considerably increases quality of CSDB. Their stuff gets into the database because it get's spread (added by someone else), because it is good ;-). Most of the sceners demand quality. Noone is interested about constant flood of low quality crap from obvious suspects. Some "producers" got it and try harder.
As for demos, music and tools, there already is some kind of (I would say) selective approach* to that stuff (although not that prominent) and if it starts to get out of hand the way as it happened with cracking scene I'm sure we'll handle it the similar way. I'm also pretty much sure that every sane demoscener will praise us for that ;-)))
*some stuff is not accepted... (e.g. most blatant cases of wiring) |
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Marauder/GSS Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006 Posts: 224 |
yes, I like the idea of having some standards about crackz which sure will raise the quality of stuff getting released nowadays. What I don't like is the idea that stuff gets deleted, instead of *nuked* (and readonly?).
The more nuked releases a group have it shows how really lame they are. If stuff gets deleted you really can't compare the "competition" and showes a biased view on scene/history imo...
hope you understand what I mean... (c; (excuse me I'm poor German, hehe) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 3048 |
I understand you. Nice (evil ;) idea (similar to "related news" at c64.sk), but I don't think Perff would agree with this approach of humiliating of csdb users. ;-). I think whether it is your idea, or current "release standards", the message will be sent to the right recipient. The producer. |
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Marauder/GSS Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006 Posts: 224 |
ofcourse it was not really my idea as it's common in the pc cracking/releasing scene that bad stuff gets nuked (but the info about not deleted). (c; Ofcourse *nuked* releases won't get really spread on good site-dumps as well, that's why I came up with readonly and/or maybe not downloadable entries... at least you still could compare the race and don't have a biased view (and also have preserved history as the bad release won't get lost).
Just have look at all those nfo-sites (like NFOrce, GNS etc.) for example - the informations about nuked releases, those with the "radioactivity symbols", are also available with a nuke-reason. That way a CSDb-entry could be compared to a release nfo-file imo.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1044 |
Quote: the selfmade gods of csdb (not the scene) have spoken!
i can't read anymore this bullshit about scene rules done by the the jazzcat clan..
you make only a csdb rule .. not more!!!!
and bye!
Jazzcat clan? strange term, but nevermind...
The whole reason I was approached for my input on this is because I've been the editor of "The List", covering 'first releases' in the scene and documenting the quality 'oldie cracks'. My references include The Pulse, Domination and Vandalism News covering 1993 to present times (for The List), so my input is easily justified.
Regarding my stance on retard-releases, I'm all for some form of moderation, and this is the way to go about it. The cracking scene has always had some form of rules (one way or another) and this is no different.
Edit: and these are rules devised by a diverse bunch of people, so back off with this clan nonsense.
The benefit: the user - quality cracks is of significant value, especially on those games that were always bugged or just weren't done properly. Crackers should show their pride and show how big their balls are...
The retarded factor is an endangered species now, step up or bugger off. |
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Marauder/GSS Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006 Posts: 224 |
Quote: I understand you. Nice (evil ;) idea (similar to "related news" at c64.sk), but I don't think Perff would agree with this approach of humiliating of csdb users. ;-). I think whether it is your idea, or current "release standards", the message will be sent to the right recipient. The producer.
"My idea" is just a combination of both as nuking is always based on some release standards/rules (and imo better than just deleting, like I've already stated my opinion about previously)... (c; On the pc cracking/releasing scene there always exist some release standards/rules for any type of release (game, app, movie, mp3 etc.). So why not for the 64?! fine with me... =)
Anyway, it's up to Perff and others, I can live with the decision, but just my 2 cents about... (c; |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
"My idea" is just a combination of both as nuking is always based on some release standards/rules (and imo better than just deleting, like I've already stated my opinion about previously)... (c;
i dont know if that would solve anything.... from my experience when stuff gets nuked with reason on some pc site, its mostly to prevent others to upload the crap again - it isnt really ment to preserve the information about that certain release. we don't really need such mechanism though (since so few releases come out).
Quote:
On the pc cracking/releasing scene there always exist some release standards/rules for any type of release (game, app, movie, mp3 etc.). So why not for the 64?! fine with me... =)
on ANY cracking/releasing scene there were and are such standards, also on the c64. every active scene FTP site had and still has such standards, and so did and do the boards.
that said, we don't even really consider csdb a release site - one of the ideas was to completely forbid adding releases which aren't atleast <some reasonable time> old and require people to release stuff on real release sites instead of csdb (such as those mentioned in the above rules). however, since we don't want that, we needed to adjust to the fact that people are (ab)using csdb as a release site (in many cases, the _primary_ and _only_ one, which is kindof sad), and so we needed those rules (like any other release site).
if you dont like those rules, choose another site. |
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The Ignorance
Registered: Apr 2006 Posts: 85 |
I don't see the sense of "nuking" releases, for me that's PC scene and not C64 scene.
Regarding the rules:
95% are the official release rules used from 1989 on.
5 % are the points about "releasing a better version" and so on. Which should be "normal".
So I don't see anything special the "scene gods" decided in 2008, THE SCENE did that already 20 years ago, only certain
people seem to have forgotten or ignore that.
And btw. there is even a rule how to name a release, since 20 years.
So improve yourself and start to learn, 2 years are long enough to do. |
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Marauder/GSS Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006 Posts: 224 |
Quote:
...
if you dont like those rules, choose another site.
*LOL* Groepaz, where did I say I don't like that rules. Please read my other posts, all I said (or try to say) is that I don't like the idea of deleting, as you can't really compare the race (if there is really one) and have a biased view on the scene/history.
Like I thought CSDb is about preserving C64 history... but it seems I got wrong. So I've just learned another thing. =)
anyway, do what you have to do... I can live with that! (c;
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
*LOL* Groepaz, where did I say I don't like that rules. Please read my other posts,
yes i got that. it was more of a general statement :)
Quote:
Like I thought CSDb is about preserving C64 history... but it seems I got wrong. So I've just learned another thing. =)
csdb is about preserving the history of the c64 SCENE. it is _not_ (knowing some people i repeat: _NOT_) about preserving the history of all and everything c64 related.
and obviously when we don't want to preserve everything, we have to define what we want and what we dont want.
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Marauder/GSS Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006 Posts: 224 |
Quote:
....
And btw. there is even a rule how to name a release, since 20 years.
So improve yourself and start to learn, 2 years are long enough to do.
and yes I know about the rules of naming a release, I was at the Danish Gold party in 1987 and you? (c;
like I've said and repeat again... I thought CSDb was about to preserve history...
[edit] so CSDb doesn't want to preserve everything, ok I understand now... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 3048 |
Quote:that said, we don't even really consider csdb a release site - one of the ideas was to completely forbid adding releases which aren't atleast <some reasonable time> old and require people to release stuff on real release sites instead of csdb (such as those mentioned in the above rules). however, since we don't want that, we needed to adjust to the fact that people are (ab)using csdb as a release site (in many cases, the _primary_ and _only_ one, which is kindof sad), and so we needed those rules (like any other release site).
Exactly. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
so CSDb doesn't want to preserve everything, ok I understand now...
if people would atleast read the introduction: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=intro (first paragraph, third paragraph)
or maybe even the more detailed rules: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=rules (V.2 V.8 V.9 V.10)
so no, csdb doesn't want to preserve everything. (also please notice that our definition of what belongs to the scene - and thus here - is already a _lot_ less restrictive and forgiving than what many sceners would want it to be) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002 Posts: 680 |
I am in no group anymore and I like these rules =]
They are not much different then they always were.
To the whiners, can't take the heat, get the F*** outta the fire...
Cheers!
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003 Posts: 494 |
I'm not a cracker (at least for 15+ years). So these rules have nothing to do with me. I hate lame cracks just flooding CSDb as well. But there are two points which I don't agree with.
1) Cracks should be pal/ntsc fixed, unless the game itself does not allow it.
You cannot force all crackers to find out NTSC bugs of emulators (like I did recently when I was trying to make a side-border effect which works both on PAL/NTSC) just like you cannot expect from them to find the real hardware. Some games might be easy to fix but you cannot create a rule like this IMHO.
2) If a second group B releases a better version within 48h, it will "steal" the release from group A who originally added it and the previous version from group A will get deleted. then the clock will get restarted for group B
C'mon! CSDb != Scene I know but CSDb is not a compo place either. If you want to see competition, open a new site for that. Deleting the previous release of Group A after many people already downloaded that release? Were you drunk or something? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
You cannot force all crackers to find out NTSC bugs of emulators (like I did recently when I was trying to make a side-border effect which works both on PAL/NTSC) just like you cannot expect from them to find the real hardware. Some games might be easy to fix but you cannot create a rule like this IMHO.
thats why it says "should" not "must". fixing is only expected if its trivial (like changing some values on a d012 compare), and that can be done easily in any emu :) (i'd say, pretty much everything released the last couple of months would have been trivial to fix, or wouldn't need a fix at all).
oh and any serious cracker group should have access to real ntsc equipment for over a decade :) and if not, it's easy enough, and doesnt cost a fortune either =)
Quote:
2) If a second group B releases a better version within 48h, it will "steal" the release from group A who originally added it and the previous version from group A will get deleted. then the clock will get restarted for group B
C'mon! CSDb != Scene I know but CSDb is not a compo place either. If you want to see competition, open a new site for that. Deleting the previous release of Group A after many people already downloaded that release? Were you drunk or something?
you got the point quite well, "CSDb is not a compo place". ie, csdb is not a release site. and thats exactly why these rules have been established. you can always put your stuff out elsewhere (ie on a release site) and then ignore most (if not all) of these rules. (and dont forget that most release sites infact have similar rules)
the alternative to these rules would have been to keep the competition outta here completely - ie not allow adding anything that isnt at least <some time> old, and only add to csdb what manages to stand the test of time.
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003 Posts: 966 |
Quoting Groepazofcourse, like every release site we make our own rules, no more no less contradicts
Quoting groepazcsdb is not a release site.
(Going a bit offtopic now)
And all this "CSDb" is not the scene ranting. Spare it, please.
Yeah well, maybe there is some "Scene" going on up in the hills of some distant country.
But for as far as I'm concerned, CSDb plays a very central role to what I percieve as the "Scene".
In the past, I have always "released" my stuff here. May that be sad or not. And I'm sure plenty of other people do that just as well. Hell, I wouldn't even know where to upload my shit if it wasn't for CSDb.
Sure, go ahead and call me all sorts of names for not "knowing" all the secret hideouts of todays "scene".
CSDb was the first thing I found when looking for the "scene" a couple of years ago, and so it remains my central point when it comes to that.
Not that my opinion counts though.
Party on dudes.
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
the overkiller wrote:
Warlok +4 (and you accuse others for recracking!)
and I reply:
First of all...Take a look at: Shamus Case II +
Pretty much the same deal in the release you point out, with the difference that I credited the crackers right from the start. You did that AFTER my comment.
Second: I don't accuse others for re-cracking! I accuse YOU for re-cracking.
Third: And your shit about "this was released 4 years ago..." 2004...2008... same crap, if you ask me. (or carp, or what ever you call it...) |
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The Overkiller Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002 Posts: 342 |
Quote: the overkiller wrote:
Warlok +4 (and you accuse others for recracking!)
and I reply:
First of all...Take a look at: Shamus Case II +
Pretty much the same deal in the release you point out, with the difference that I credited the crackers right from the start. You did that AFTER my comment.
Second: I don't accuse others for re-cracking! I accuse YOU for re-cracking.
Third: And your shit about "this was released 4 years ago..." 2004...2008... same crap, if you ask me. (or carp, or what ever you call it...)
First: the credits were in the intro, so what???
Second: do it, then tell it to your mates too. And you said also The Ignorance is a recracker , lol !!!!
Third: yes, and I quitted it. Sadly you still goes on. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
Quoting Groepaz
ofcourse, like every release site we make our own rules, no more no less
contradicts
Quoting groepaz
csdb is not a release site.
yes it does. explained above. csdb isn't a release site per se, but people use it as such, which in turn requires us to act like one.
Quote:
And all this "CSDb" is not the scene ranting. Spare it, please.
Yeah well, maybe there is some "Scene" going on up in the hills of some distant country.
But for as far as I'm concerned, CSDb plays a very central role to what I percieve as the "Scene".
imho it can't be told often enough that csdb isn't the scene, and that the scene is not csdb. we can delete this site and the scene will continue to exist elsewhere.
that "central role" you are talking of is played by the releases itself, not csdb. csdb is just a mirror.
Quote:
Hell, I wouldn't even know where to upload my shit if it wasn't for CSDb.
see, thats the sad part about it. and its part of the problem that we try to steer against. csdb beeing the one and only place where people release their stuff is not what we want, because there is more to the scene than csdb.
anyway, some sites are given in the above rules. also, it might seem like a crazy idea but ... people tend to release and upload their stuff on their, or their groups, homepage. it worked for manky even :o)
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003 Posts: 966 |
Quoting Groepazthat "central role" you are talking of is played by the releases itself, not csdb. csdb is just a mirror.
I disagree. Its not just the releases. Neither is just CSDb. Its the people who come here.
CSDb itself is a result of this community.
I'm not saying that CSDb is the be all and end all of the scene.
But to say that it wouldn't be missed, should it cease to exist, is a bold statement.
CSDb has become more than just a database. Things like this and this tell me that.
It might not "be the scene" but it sure is part of it.
PS : Quoting Groepazit worked for manky even :o)
Please, leave manky out of this.
PPS:
Strike that, even Manky has a purpose. We just havent figured it out yet. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:I disagree. Its not just the releases. Neither is just CSDb. Its the people who come here.
and thats another thing we want to steer against - we want to push the main focus on (quality) releases again.
Quote:But to say that it wouldn't be missed, should it cease to exist, is a bold statement.
i did not say that. what i said is that the scene doesnt need csdb to exist. the scene existed before there was csdb, and the scene will continue to exist when there is no more csdb. and a considerably large part of the scene exists without a need for csdb even today.
Quote:It might not "be the scene" but it sure is part of it.
ofcourse, noone said it's not :) but you named the one important thing - csdb is PART of the scene. and also, PART of the scene is reflected in csdb. the problem are those who mistake csdb as beeing the scene. or even more scary, the scene as beeing csdb. its not. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: I'm not a cracker (at least for 15+ years). So these rules have nothing to do with me. I hate lame cracks just flooding CSDb as well. But there are two points which I don't agree with.
1) Cracks should be pal/ntsc fixed, unless the game itself does not allow it.
You cannot force all crackers to find out NTSC bugs of emulators (like I did recently when I was trying to make a side-border effect which works both on PAL/NTSC) just like you cannot expect from them to find the real hardware. Some games might be easy to fix but you cannot create a rule like this IMHO.
2) If a second group B releases a better version within 48h, it will "steal" the release from group A who originally added it and the previous version from group A will get deleted. then the clock will get restarted for group B
C'mon! CSDb != Scene I know but CSDb is not a compo place either. If you want to see competition, open a new site for that. Deleting the previous release of Group A after many people already downloaded that release? Were you drunk or something?
first and foremost, these rules are not about the legal scene. at all.
1)
While ntsc emulation is quite crappy, afaik there are no games taking advantage of things that aren't emulated properly. Even when that happens, I'm very sure nobody will be too strict. Also, some games are pretty much unfixable (somebody finally fix the lemmings intro 100%, fucking posers;)
2)
You sort of reach the reasons for these rules now. imho they are only there now to rid us from crap releases, nothing more, nothing less.
But as you cant say "ban group x", these rules were drafted so that the same rules apply to everybody. Genuine releases already follow the rules, check any Nostalgia or Remember release.
For me, the setup of these rules was handled very well. A lot of people involved from various backgrounds and a pretty sane rule set got created.
So, these rules have been drafted by the scene, for the scene and in addition implemented on csdb. What else do we want ;)
The remark "I guess this means I can enable cracks in the latest releases list preferences again." pretty much sums it all up. |
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Marauder/GSS Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006 Posts: 224 |
Quote: Quote:
so CSDb doesn't want to preserve everything, ok I understand now...
if people would atleast read the introduction: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=intro (first paragraph, third paragraph)
or maybe even the more detailed rules: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=rules (V.2 V.8 V.9 V.10)
so no, csdb doesn't want to preserve everything. (also please notice that our definition of what belongs to the scene - and thus here - is already a _lot_ less restrictive and forgiving than what many sceners would want it to be)
*g* think you've misunderstood me again. Ofcoz I have read and know the rules and when I was talking about preserving history or 'everything' then I ofcoz mean scene relateded stuff like ALL releases of a scener or groups. Not commerical stuff and things like that.
Come on, we're on a SCENE-database, didn't know I have to add 'of the scene' to 'everything'. (c;
I like CSDb because I can find 'every' single release of a group here (and if not available, then for sure it'll be added sooner or later ;) and lot's of informations about the groups etc. If stuff gets deleted I somehow feel it's incomplete (and showing a biased view on scene/history), that's why I was "complaining" about deleting and ofcoz I agree to the rules as they sure will raise quality of the stuff getting released nowadays.... (c; just my 2cents, but I understand... anyway keep on with CSDb, would miss it...
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002 Posts: 680 |
TWR: You are a.... ah hell I won't even waste my words on you.
Burglar: Damn right!
Recracking sucks, period. It was never tolerated, and never will be... nuff said about that.
Do quality work, or don't waste your time and ours. It doesn't score you any points. Like stated in the revised rules, if you can't do a crack (from an original!) and do it better or do something new with it, it is just a waste of your time and our time and disk/hosting space.
If you do this crap and are looking for fame, well your barking up the wrong tree as you will get what you have gotten and deserve, a beating by the scene. It's 2008, no ones cares, sorry to burst your bubble. Please stop wasting our time. (If I keep saying this maybe it will finally stick!)
I used to do this stuff cause I loved the c64, and the scene and most of the people in it. I quit doing it because of this crap that is coming out all the time called "releases" and I think most people can agree with me that it is just trolling and insulting. If this is what scene has become, well then fuck the scene! Young and some old turds who have no concept of scene or spirit coming a long and ruining shit for your self rightous ego wanking or just a troll or a laugh and putting it across as somehow being serious is such a fucking laugh... get serious your not fooling anyone except maybe yourselves. Most time the people who whine and complain are the offenders who don't like to conform, but hell we'd rather not have to instate rules at all, However, there's always some turd who comes along and shits in the punch bowl and fucks it up for everyone else... So, you think your cool? Yeah do ya? So is a toilet seat! So how does it feel to be the unattainable goal of manky's ass and load of shit? yeah real cool indeed I bet! muhauha...
I have spoken.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
*g* think you've misunderstood me again. Ofcoz I have read and know the rules and when I was talking about preserving history or 'everything' then I ofcoz mean scene relateded stuff like ALL releases of a scener or groups. Not commerical stuff and things like that.
Come on, we're on a SCENE-database, didn't know I have to add 'of the scene' to 'everything'. (c;
I like CSDb because I can find 'every' single release of a group here (and if not available, then for sure it'll be added sooner or later ;) and lot's of informations about the groups etc. If stuff gets deleted I somehow feel it's incomplete (and showing a biased view on scene/history), that's why I was "complaining" about deleting and ofcoz I agree to the rules as they sure will raise quality of the stuff getting released nowadays.... (c; just my 2cents, but I understand... anyway keep on with CSDb, would miss it...
again: before we can even start collecting every scene release, we must define what a scene release is (and what is not). thats the whole point. and crappy half assed stuff such as those releases which are affected by these rules never qualified as scene releases. mail swappers would not spread them, and boards would delete them.
that said, i somehow doubt we will see a lot of those deleted releases - none of the serious groups is affected by the rules in any way, and the days when they would be hostile enough to "steal" each others releases are long gone.
and if your worries at some point become more than theory, we can still install a mechanism to deal with it in a way that "everything" gets preserved for historical reasons.
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
Perhaps its the wrong place, or there is a thread somewhre else, but i want to write about it: i´m collector of nearly all games which have been released... Not importand from which group it was done, i collect 1, 2 or 3 versions of each game. Everyday i look here for new releases or latest additons of old cracks. But in last time i am wondering why sooo much additions are made without a file... Thats toally senseless in my eyes... /o\ Okay, PERHAPS SOMEONE IS ABLE TO ADD, but in the most times, there isn`t someone... :( So please dudes, stop adding something without file, ok? ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
entries without a file are perfectly fine if there is a good reason for not having the file (broken files, lost files, etc).
and yes, this has nothing to do with this thread :) |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006 Posts: 847 |
Quote:But in last time i am wondering why sooo much additions are made without a file... Thats toally senseless in my eyes
That depends on the condition of the disk with that particular file. There were a couple of releases I added but having the disks completely bugged I wasn't able to upload. I thought the intention would be that you add the title and leave it unlocked for someone who also has the file to that release and then upload it themselves, but it seems that hasn't been happening recently. Depends on how famous the release is as well. I wouldn't guarantee an extremely lame release to be spread and that everyone would have it physically on disk. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
exactly... however it's usually good if such releases get added anyway, since thats pretty much the only way to compile a list of missing releases. ( http://noname.c64.org/csdb/browse.php?grouptype_id=0&browsesub=.. ) |
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assiduous Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007 Posts: 343 |
even corrupt disk images should be uploaded ! sometimes its possible to recreate a correctly working image from 2 or even more bugged copies(as was done numerous times in Gamebase). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
yes thats true |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 116 |
just my 2 cents: i totally agree with the moderators to install a set of rules that help keeping this database and the scene clean and tidy. :)
i think it's ok if we upload old releases from back in the days that might not exactly fit these rules. as they survived somehow in the boxes, they should therefore be preserved as part of scene history.
i understand that csdb is NOT the scene. but csdb is ofcourse a platform where the scene (or at least large parts of it) is reflected by members (and also non-members) of the scene. either from the historical standpoint or as active part of the current scene.
also csdb is a platform where sceners interact with each other (and again not exclusively). we can see csdb as a kind of hub for many things relevant to the scene.
i think what makes our scene life complicated in some way is, that there never was such a platform before. all other platforms (BBS, forums, parties, web sites ...) the scene had or has, were/are either limited to the inner circle (you may call it elite or hard core or schnullibulli) or made for comunicating with the outside world (e.g. groups web sites).
in one sentence: it was much easier to make lamers stay away if you wanted.
the exposed role (remember e.g. the strider incident) csdb owns makes it essential to me to have proper rules. i mean proper, not too strict!
so, go on moderators and start kicking all those copy fake artists! :D |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003 Posts: 966 |
Quoting higgiestart kicking all those copy fake artists! :D
Huh, i think that was my queue. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote:i think it's ok if we upload old releases from back in the days that might not exactly fit these rules. as they survived somehow in the boxes, they should therefore be preserved as part of scene history.
these new rules are for new releases only afaik, so old releases are still allowed. right? |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 620 |
Quote: Quote:i think it's ok if we upload old releases from back in the days that might not exactly fit these rules. as they survived somehow in the boxes, they should therefore be preserved as part of scene history.
these new rules are for new releases only afaik, so old releases are still allowed. right?
Old releases are ok; I just dont want to see all crap from people who never did take part of the scene, understood the basics of the scene and releasing crap just for the sake of it to claim activity. Bye Bye Crypt in other words!
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:these new rules are for new releases only afaik, so old releases are still allowed. right?
"These rules are only valid for cracks (by our definition) released after 1/8-2008."
:) |
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NoRi
Registered: Oct 2004 Posts: 24 |
@TRAZAN :
I read several times some of your comments (as moderator...) and you seems to be psychologically extremely rigid (since I'm not interested in marrying you it would not be a problem). You have the merit to be less diplomatic than the average; in few cases it is a quality but in most ones it isn't...
Meanwhile, I didn't posted here to startup a war against the almighty Trazan (we are not kids and risking a ban is never cool, although I'm not sure it would change lots of things in my life) but just to give my little opinion about this REALLY interesting debate, not the one about this new rule (time will tell us if it would help to attract newcomers or not) but about how the C64 should face the streaming time and the fact that the 64 community is shrinking. CSDB does not care ? it should...
To make the things clear I don't care about cracking scene as it is already dead since long time ago I guess, just take a look at the huge amont of pics and musics released : the artists have monopolized the old brown machine. Sure, the crackers are not guilty of the few commercial games released but the truth remains like printed in the stone : the cracking scene is dead.
Life is a bitch I know...
P.S. : I'm a noob, I've bought my 64 in late 2004
(the music is very loud and the wine is flooding).
P.S #2 : I made a white lie about cracking scene : I have all the cracks of Jack Alien transfered.
P.S. #3 : I forgot, never mind. |
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NoRi
Registered: Oct 2004 Posts: 24 |
Yeah I remember now the PS. #3 :
I'm a noob, the first thing I did on the c64 after havind played like hell during weeks and weeks and weeks I decided to change the sprites in the game "For speed we need" I saddly failed and sent to Richard Bayliss the sprites to ask him to include them in his game...I felt like the king of the mountain !!!!!!!!!!!! yeah.
party time ! |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 620 |
Quote: @TRAZAN :
I read several times some of your comments (as moderator...) and you seems to be psychologically extremely rigid (since I'm not interested in marrying you it would not be a problem). You have the merit to be less diplomatic than the average; in few cases it is a quality but in most ones it isn't...
Meanwhile, I didn't posted here to startup a war against the almighty Trazan (we are not kids and risking a ban is never cool, although I'm not sure it would change lots of things in my life) but just to give my little opinion about this REALLY interesting debate, not the one about this new rule (time will tell us if it would help to attract newcomers or not) but about how the C64 should face the streaming time and the fact that the 64 community is shrinking. CSDB does not care ? it should...
To make the things clear I don't care about cracking scene as it is already dead since long time ago I guess, just take a look at the huge amont of pics and musics released : the artists have monopolized the old brown machine. Sure, the crackers are not guilty of the few commercial games released but the truth remains like printed in the stone : the cracking scene is dead.
Life is a bitch I know...
P.S. : I'm a noob, I've bought my 64 in late 2004
(the music is very loud and the wine is flooding).
P.S #2 : I made a white lie about cracking scene : I have all the cracks of Jack Alien transfered.
P.S. #3 : I forgot, never mind.
Thats OK, Im a lamer and am not really here to make new friends, I am just writing what others like to read actually.
Kill me! |
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
The best post so far by Nori.
And when I come to think of it, what gives people like trazan the right to judge anyone? What has this character contributed to the scene or to the CSDB anyway? How come a loudmouth like this can actually be a moderator? That's beyond me.
And to the overkiller: Good to read you've stopped bringing +1's to this site several years ago. Orc Attack +D
And fungus... Naw, never mind. :-D |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 620 |
Quote: The best post so far by Nori.
And when I come to think of it, what gives people like trazan the right to judge anyone? What has this character contributed to the scene or to the CSDB anyway? How come a loudmouth like this can actually be a moderator? That's beyond me.
And to the overkiller: Good to read you've stopped bringing +1's to this site several years ago. Orc Attack +D
And fungus... Naw, never mind. :-D
All hail Nori!
This loudmouth character is judging releases that were never
supposed to have been introlinked in the first place, unless
the releasing "group" would like to be punished with minuspoints in the old standards releasecharts. What you guys do, is flood CSDB / "scene" with crap. Simply dont.
And no, im nolonger a moderator, im a loudmouth character and whats behind you is most likely your ass, supplying the crap you keep releasing with pride, introlinked and put on the market just to troll. Hail Nori!
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The Overkiller Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002 Posts: 342 |
Quote: The best post so far by Nori.
And when I come to think of it, what gives people like trazan the right to judge anyone? What has this character contributed to the scene or to the CSDB anyway? How come a loudmouth like this can actually be a moderator? That's beyond me.
And to the overkiller: Good to read you've stopped bringing +1's to this site several years ago. Orc Attack +D
And fungus... Naw, never mind. :-D
+1 is enought for Orc Attack and you did exactly the same ... +1 but with a different manner. +3 ? Where? Infact there's only an option trainer to select, right? When I said "I quitted" I mean that I'll never do again releases not taken from an original and from Calvelon +3 did in 2006 I always worked on originals... you and your happy bunch don't.. |
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
Quote: +1 is enought for Orc Attack and you did exactly the same ... +1 but with a different manner. +3 ? Where? Infact there's only an option trainer to select, right? When I said "I quitted" I mean that I'll never do again releases not taken from an original and from Calvelon +3 did in 2006 I always worked on originals... you and your happy bunch don't..
A +1 isn't allowed here anymore, just for your information.
Let me explain the trainers for you:
You have a choice to stop the decrement of your "energy"
( 1 )
You have a choice to be "invisible" to the arrows
( 2 )
You have a (correct) choice of unlimited lives if you want.
( 3 )
About the original... Yes, I used an old already cracked game. But it was me who cracked it. Back in 1989. For The Slayers. From the original.
Do you actually look at the releases you accuse me for re-cracking or whatever? Or do you get information from somewhere else...?
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:A +1 isn't allowed here anymore, just for your information.
hu? |
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j0x
Registered: Mar 2004 Posts: 215 |
Quote:A crack MUST be preceded by a crack intro
What constitutes an intro? Static text on-screen while decrunching? Static text intro waiting for the user to press space? A single 1x1 scroll? Multiple IFLI-pics and digi-samples? :)
I don't mean to nit-pick, but I profoundly dislike when people add a 60 block intro to a 16 block game. I usually just add a bit of static text if I feel a full intro would bloat and/or outshine the game.
IMHO, intros such as SCS*TRC Intro 09 and Burkah Intro V2, cool they may be, would detract from the feel of a 1984 game.
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
what is an intro? check http://intros.c64.org/ for a few examples. |
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
It's simply that csdb don't want cracks without intros anymore, like Kljuc + or Rocket Roger +3 or Army Moves +6 to name a few recent examples.
A pity, I think - but that's the way it is... |
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j0x
Registered: Mar 2004 Posts: 215 |
Yes, thank you very much, Enno.....
In case my question wasn't clear: Would some static text, displayed while decrunching, satisfy the CSDB requirement for an intro?
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006 Posts: 847 |
...which leads back to the important message from the very first post... PUT EFFORT INTO THE WORK!
People want to be popular too quickly these days. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: Yes, thank you very much, Enno.....
In case my question wasn't clear: Would some static text, displayed while decrunching, satisfy the CSDB requirement for an intro?
is static decrunch text an intro? come on dude, of course it isn't. |
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j0x
Registered: Mar 2004 Posts: 215 |
Quote: is static decrunch text an intro? come on dude, of course it isn't.
Okay, fair enough. Perhaps my main gripe is that I don't understand what the requirement for an intro would add to the quality of a crack. Will the addition of, say, a previously released intro add value to a crack?
Shouldn't the cracker put effort into the crack (the game) rather than the intro? If our judgment of cracks is based to a non-negligible degree on their intros, shouldn't we just release said intros as single-part demos (which I realize happens these days) and forget about the game altogether?
I'm all for great intros in front of cracks and I'm all for the mixed demo and cracking scene, but aren't we mixing demo-making values with cracking values here?
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1085 |
Quote: Okay, fair enough. Perhaps my main gripe is that I don't understand what the requirement for an intro would add to the quality of a crack. Will the addition of, say, a previously released intro add value to a crack?
Shouldn't the cracker put effort into the crack (the game) rather than the intro? If our judgment of cracks is based to a non-negligible degree on their intros, shouldn't we just release said intros as single-part demos (which I realize happens these days) and forget about the game altogether?
I'm all for great intros in front of cracks and I'm all for the mixed demo and cracking scene, but aren't we mixing demo-making values with cracking values here?
it's a scene thing. |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006 Posts: 186 |
to be honest i am bit tired of seeing the same intro over and over again before a crack and only text changed, its not 1988 anymore. if the cracker have nothing new to show for, just type a text in the crunching or a simple scroll text. i think the decision should be left to the cracker to do what he want to do. so i agree with j0x here a crack dont need a megademo/intro etc infront it to be released. in the end the most important is the crack...
i know intros before cracks is a scene thing but forcing people to put a intro infront a crack aint...
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j0x
Registered: Mar 2004 Posts: 215 |
Quote: it's a scene thing.
Yup, and so are bad Future Composer tunes, grating my ears since 1988... :)
I'm not doing this to nag or to erode your rules, I'd just like to understand why you've put in this requirement for an intro to be present. I'm sure you've discussed this, and I'd like to hear the arguments that were put forth then.
Don't get me wrong, I like intros as much as the next guy, I just don't think they should be mandatory.
I think the other rules are great, though. As other people have already written, they've existed in written and unwritten form in many years, but it's nice to have a central point of reference.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
to be honest, we haven't really discussed that particular point at all - it seemed to be a natural thing to do for everyone involved :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
ok well, there seems to be some misconceptions on how these new rules will be handled and applied. to make it clear once and for all (hopefully) consider the following added to these rules:
- the quality of the actual game is irrelevant, these rules only apply to the quality of the crack itself.
- moderators will not actively check all and every release. if there is a release that you think should not be here because it violates said rules, use the "discuss this release" feature and post why it should be deleted and the moderators will then verify it and take care of it. telling the reason in public is important so the releasers know what they did wrong and what they should improve. "OMG THIS IS CRAP" is NOT a valid reason, just like it is irrelevant who made the release in question.
that said, please understand that moderators will most likely ignore any requests or complaints related to releases which should be removed, unless they are posted in the forum with a valid reason. this is neither a witchhunt nor a bitching contest.
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
this is neither a witchhunt nor a bitching contest.
It is not?
Well, then it must be a bitchhunt and witching contest... |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002 Posts: 680 |
Shut up Wanderer...
Go jmp in a lake or something and wear an anchor... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
this is neither a witchhunt nor a bitching contest.
It is not?
no it isnt. if it was, we wouldn't need these rules in the first place, and just delete and ban if we feel like it. and we wouldn't need to tell a reason for it either :) |
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
I bet 100:1 that in near future no new cracks will stay here! Only from the "elite" groups... And then its totally unimportend if they set 1 Million Trainers in an Preview, what will be a witchhunt if others do that... :P
Or no one wants to crack anymore... But i think this is the right way in 2008: only 3-4 games released and the staff is happy... :P |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Quote: I bet 100:1 that in near future no new cracks will stay here! Only from the "elite" groups... And then its totally unimportend if they set 1 Million Trainers in an Preview, what will be a witchhunt if others do that... :P
Or no one wants to crack anymore... But i think this is the right way in 2008: only 3-4 games released and the staff is happy... :P
You too can be elite!
Yes sir!
Just obey by the rules and your crack will bring you infinite stardom.
A nice practice for you and your trisomie 21 fanboys, ntsc-fix Manky! |
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The Ignorance
Registered: Apr 2006 Posts: 85 |
I now officially state those "coolies" never ever cracked anything except a plasticbag full of Potato-Chips.
W0RD! |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006 Posts: 186 |
i like the rule "no more crappy game creators shit allowed"... slapping an intro infront of that and +1 it just hurt my kidney..... |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006 Posts: 186 |
Quote: Quote:
this is neither a witchhunt nor a bitching contest.
It is not?
no it isnt. if it was, we wouldn't need these rules in the first place, and just delete and ban if we feel like it. and we wouldn't need to tell a reason for it either :)
so twr is wanderer... LOL... i guess i suggested him to crack portal the second time on a forum that must not be mentioned by name.... |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006 Posts: 186 |
Quote: Shut up Wanderer...
Go jmp in a lake or something and wear an anchor...
so twr is wanderer... LOL... i guess i suggested him to crack portal the second time on a forum that must not be mentioned by name.... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:I bet 100:1 that in near future no new cracks will stay here! Only from the "elite" groups... And then its totally unimportend if they set 1 Million Trainers in an Preview, what will be a witchhunt if others do that... :P
Or no one wants to crack anymore... But i think this is the right way in 2008: only 3-4 games released and the staff is happy... :P
everyone can live without the crap that you call "cracks" really.
and what scout said. it's not like it's hard to create something that complies with these rules.
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
And everyone can live without such arrogant and absurd posts like form groepaz, ignorance, stash, fungus, trazan and alll other very cool top sceners.... /o\ |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
yes i agree, everyone who says shit when they see it is arrogant and absurd. how could i miss that :( |
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The Ignorance
Registered: Apr 2006 Posts: 85 |
And now we wait for the releasewise proof of
"we are arrogant and you retards are NOT lame"...
But I think that never ever will happen.
Go lemonizing a bit, read some ASM books and come back in 21337 or copy some basic games and trade them with your l33t pals. |
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Kater Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 20 |
Quote: And now we wait for the releasewise proof of
"we are arrogant and you retards are NOT lame"...
But I think that never ever will happen.
Go lemonizing a bit, read some ASM books and come back in 21337 or copy some basic games and trade them with your l33t pals.
Yeah i mean exactly such posts.... It´s sooo great to read such an bullshit all the time... rofl go on 1337 7331 or whatever else you want! :P |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002 Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Yeah i mean exactly such posts.... It´s sooo great to read such an bullshit all the time... rofl go on 1337 7331 or whatever else you want! :P
Okay, so you don't want to be 1337 (or 7331). Fair enough.
Just read the new rules again, let them sink in and you'll see it's just a challenge for all of us.
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
Quote:
Okay, so you don't want to be 1337 (or 7331). Fair enough.
Just read the new rules again, let them sink in and you'll see it's just a challenge for all of us.
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
indeed. cracks me up that some people think these rules were only made for the "elite". honest, if we wanted that, we would have adjusted them to GRGs standards. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 474 |
I dont see what there is to complain about, those who cant be bothered to make proper cracks are already members of the groups putting out those junk releases so just mail eachother your stuff and spare csdb the crap. Everyone wins. |
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stash Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002 Posts: 343 |
kater for csdb president.. or just go join crypt |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 3048 |
Quote: Quote:
Okay, so you don't want to be 1337 (or 7331). Fair enough.
Just read the new rules again, let them sink in and you'll see it's just a challenge for all of us.
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
indeed. cracks me up that some people think these rules were only made for the "elite". honest, if we wanted that, we would have adjusted them to GRGs standards.
Applause! |
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
Quote: Quote:
Okay, so you don't want to be 1337 (or 7331). Fair enough.
Just read the new rules again, let them sink in and you'll see it's just a challenge for all of us.
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
indeed. cracks me up that some people think these rules were only made for the "elite". honest, if we wanted that, we would have adjusted them to GRGs standards.
You mean like Bismark &D ? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
no, like this Armalyte Competition Edition +6HDR this Grand Prix Circuit +DFIR or this Legacy of the Ancients +8DIR |
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TWR Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004 Posts: 187 |
Quote: no, like this Armalyte Competition Edition +6HDR this Grand Prix Circuit +DFIR or this Legacy of the Ancients +8DIR
Ok. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Basic new guidelines is now updated, as CSDb is no longer a first release site. For guidelines and rules when it comes to so called "first releases" we will point you at the rules stated in Vandalism News, Game Corner and Propaganda.
This is a step towards this principle: CSDb is a database mirroring the C64 scene that was, and the C64 scene that is. We are not the scene (which, by some reason, some people obviously think). |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002 Posts: 3186 |
And to add a clarification, I was not involved this time. So don't bother me asking what has changed and why. :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Yeah, sorry. Ian Coog was not involved. Still we love him - in one way, or another. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
and neither was me! |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Quote: and neither was me!
Yeah, yeah. Hearts, rainbows and unicorns your way too. ;) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Rules updated with some uploading guides.
http://csdb.dk/crackstandards.php |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003 Posts: 519 |
rules... we are all born in a world full of rules: government rules, family rules, ethical rules, dress codes, business standard, religious laws, internet behavior, etc, etc. at the end of our road we'll probably get the final hi-score (disabled if you used trainers) with how many rules you observed and how many you broke.
C=64 and computer in general has been for me, and I think for some of you too, a way to simply don't care about those rules, a world of "freedom" and evasion. so I respect everybody here, from the elitest to the lamest, and I try to be friendly with everyone, but hearing so often the word "rules!" associated to my fav retro hobby makes me a bit sigh and sob. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Quote: rules... we are all born in a world full of rules: government rules, family rules, ethical rules, dress codes, business standard, religious laws, internet behavior, etc, etc. at the end of our road we'll probably get the final hi-score (disabled if you used trainers) with how many rules you observed and how many you broke.
C=64 and computer in general has been for me, and I think for some of you too, a way to simply don't care about those rules, a world of "freedom" and evasion. so I respect everybody here, from the elitest to the lamest, and I try to be friendly with everyone, but hearing so often the word "rules!" associated to my fav retro hobby makes me a bit sigh and sob.
Excuse me? I don't quite follow.
We are not setting up rules for how you should use your C64 or live your life. CSDb is not the scene. It is a database, and as a valuable source of information about our beloved hobby it has to have coherent structure, to be able to be searchable and useful. Therefore we have rules, so that everyone helping out is registering entries the same way. You must understand that, right?
If you mean the first release rules, talk to the the editors of Vandalism News etc. It has nothing to do with CSDb anymore. The rules mentioned above are only for how to add releases to CSDb.
The scene is as free as always. Do whatever you want. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
those who complain about rules have simple no idea why they are needed and what would be the result of not having them. move on. |
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Goat
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 42 |
These rules are totally meaningless, as this database collects all c64 releases, no matter if they are better or not. For example the DNS version of INERTIANIA was worse than the previous ANT version. Nevertheless it was a valid C64 release, so everything is kept within the database. So these 'rules' are not worth anything... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
you didnt even read them rules, right? lol |
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Goat
Registered: Oct 2007 Posts: 42 |
No, as they are useless, there's is no need to read them... just keep on releasing and everything is added here. ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
...until you make drama about why something is being deleted :o)
and yes, you have no idea =) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003 Posts: 519 |
This morning I woke up and saw this topic on top position. It wasn't the breakfast that caused me a nice stomachache, but the many words "crack rules". "crack standards" in the title, everywhere! aargh, again? there was no crack rules back in the cracking days and do we really need them now for a cracking scene that died 25 years ago?
Only then I realized that the topic was old and hot again because of the necro posts, but it was too late; stomachache was real and it made me add my post.
so mighty Hedning, I still love you (*smack*, *smack*) but:
- if you are not talking about crack rules that applied in the era when csdb was a 1st release site, but some <whatever> new/modified rules, please create a new topic and don't use the link "crackstandards.php" as it can cause confusion (at least to me)
- I suggest it's time to expand your bot entries, you are using the same phrases since ages now: "csdb is just a database", "csdb is not a 1st release site", "csdb is not the scene", "csdb is only archiving/collecting stuff", etc. add something like "STFU smasher!" and similar to your array.
- just kidding, I know you are not using a lame bot and that you are human, but in that case you can analyze what you type and thing about it, because I see that csdb is not just a database, but it's a strongly used source of originals for the cracking (introlinking) scene, it's also a release site for those who upload their homemade games, it's also a meeting site for old and new sceners, etc. so mods who always try to convince it's just a database aren't very succesful, with me at least.
- pleez use the word "rules" a bit less from now on and I'll love you more :)
- what the fuck is vandalism news? :P |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Goat: FFS. Click http://csdb.dk/crackstandards.php . Its about how to upload stuff here etc. Nothing more. The old rules concerning naming and points and stuff are gone. Some kind of standard naming standard will be implemented in time, so that the number of trainers and all magical letters ends up in the correct places automatically. And no worries, Groepaz, it will be built on the standard you put together years ago.
ZeSmasher: I keep repeating some phrases because people tend to use CSDb as some sort of Facebook thing, and I hope some people might read one or two of my lines one day. The main reason this site exists is to preserve and collect c64 scene releases. Now, sir, you can STFU! ;) Love you too, of course. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1578 |
I couldn't care less about the cracking scene's rules, I didn't even knew CSDb was a first release site, but I'm quite curious what is the reason why CSDb isn't functioning as one any more? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Quote: I couldn't care less about the cracking scene's rules, I didn't even knew CSDb was a first release site, but I'm quite curious what is the reason why CSDb isn't functioning as one any more?
Before (say, 2010) we used one FTP (TDD), CSDb and one C64 BBS (Antidote). The group that delivered the first release on all these places first won the race and got the first release.
After some discussions, and more c64 boards appearing, we (the major releasing groups) agreed on that we should support the BBS scene more, and as neither CSDb or a FTP (TDD, The Digital Dungeon) is C64 compatible, it was an easy move: The Hidden (run by GP and Atlantis+F4CG), Reflections (Laxity) and Antidote (Triad and Onslaught) became the three boards where the stuff should end up first.
There are some obvious pro's here: cracks on new commercial games could be uploaded and not hidden away, available to the ones that really cares. CSDb and TDD did not have to care about who was first etc etc, debating and be part of cracker scene politics. CSDb could focus on its main reason of existance: collecting and preserving all releases. And the "rules" could go back to the magazines where they belong. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1578 |
Ah, makes sense, thanks. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11352 |
of course you forgot one little yet important detail there: it wasnt "the major groups" that decided this regarding csdb. csdb never wanted to be a first release site - that was the whole reason for those rules being established 10 years ago :) |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005 Posts: 229 |
Quote: I couldn't care less about the cracking scene's rules, I didn't even knew CSDb was a first release site, but I'm quite curious what is the reason why CSDb isn't functioning as one any more?
PooPBiRD, let me fix that for you:
Scene's rules. I'm quite curious what is the reason why CSDb isn't functioning any more? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009 Posts: 4720 |
Quote: of course you forgot one little yet important detail there: it wasnt "the major groups" that decided this regarding csdb. csdb never wanted to be a first release site - that was the whole reason for those rules being established 10 years ago :)
Good info. So CSDb is again what it wanted to be, and was meant to be. Leaving the first release rules and stuff for the ones that cares. |