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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
FD2000/HD/1581 versions of multidisk games
Hi all,
I'm right now playing Ultima V on my C128. And even though I have a second drive connected I find the disk swapping extremely annoying. I wonder if one of those jewel crackers out there would like to do a version of that game (or other multidisk RPG like Bard's Tale II+III, Dragon Wars, just to name a few) that run from a single 1581/CMD FD2000/CMD HD or IDE64 (even 64HDD would be nice)?
I did a little research on Ultima V and discovered that the majority of the files on the 8 disks is redundant data! Actually only about 2 files per disk differ from files on other disks with the same filename! So I could imagine that all it takes is to modify the main program files, add a few branching instruction depending on the location of the game (Dungeons, Keeps, Towns...), rename the non-redundant files and adjust the main program files to load those renamed files instead.
Am I just blue-eyed, or do you think this is doable with reasonably low effort? |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Checked the group that releases FD2000 versions of the games? I forget their URL and their name :(
I just checked, group is TAC but none of the games you want :( |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Yeah, I checked their site. Already contacted one of their crackers, but got no reply so far. :-( |
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Bender
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 9 |
I actually think it takes a little more effort than that :( I've made a version of Worldclass Leaderboard that has ALL courses on one disk (original + Famous courses 1-3 = 16 courses total, roughly about 1600-1800 blocks) to avoid disk swapping and being able to play any course at any given time without having to reboot the game again to get the correct course-name. Everything is working just fine, except for one thing - there are now so many files on the disk ( +300) that it takes a veeery long time to find the files for the next hole to load, it's not worth the effort (on an FD2000 atleast, probably works faster on HD).
The thing I've done is very simply done - and I'm no hacker at all, but I doubt that a game that is relased on 8 disks has any redundant data. Even if the disks directories looks alike, the files might not be of the same size or the same location i memory. So you'd still wind up with alot of files and the same problem I ran into. If I knew a little more about coding, I'd pack one course into one file (like IFFL) and have the whole game crunched down to under 20 files total. I assume that would solve your problem too, but it as mentioned before it would demand a lot more skill than I posess.
If someone wants my "one-disk-version" of WCL or is willing to help me fix my problem - feel free to contact me! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Wow, that Leaderboard thing sounds impressive! Send it over to steppe@demodungeon.com, please!
But believe me, I copied the prg files of Ultima V to my harddisk and byte-compared them in my hexeditor, they ARE redundant!
I meanwhile sorted everything in a way that I put all the non-redundant data in one directory and left the files with identical filename but differing data compared to identically named files from other disks into a separate folder which is named after the disk. If anyone wants to take a look to pick up the work from where I stopped, here it is:
www.demodungeon.com/fun/u5.zip |
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Bender
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 9 |
Hey Steppe! Cool to find someone with a similar interest in the C64 area!
Ok, I'm gonna go offline for while to transfer the disks and write som short info on how to use it. In return all I want is a comment how you think it works, hopefully no problem :) |
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Bender
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 9 |
Ok, finally done! Enjoy! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Nice, thanks for sending it along!
As I just found out my 1581 is completely misaligned, and fiddling around even made it worse. Have to wait for my newly ordered Chinon drive mechanics to arrive, then I'll give you some feedback. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Heh,
Nice to see that someone have the same interest as me in trying to get big games to work on 1581/HD/FD. Personally, I have tested quite a few games - and found many to work. The games i've tested so far is the Last Ninja Trilogy, Lemmings, Killed Until Dead, Champions of Krynn, Death Knights of Krynn, Gateway to the Savage Frontier and even a few other big games. I also highly recommend the 1581 version of Pirates, which makes the game highly enjoyable. And do not forget GRG's new crack of Project Firestart which works 100% with a 1581.
Personally, i'd kill for 1581 versions of Ultima VI, Enchanced Newcomer and Dragon Wars. Any other RPG's you know of working on a 3.5 drive? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
IDE64 Newcomer is coming, so I believe it will also work on 1581, if they haven't messed up completely :) |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
I have the 3.5" version of SWORD OF HONOUR, which is file-loading rather than direct access like the 5.25" version (which comes on 4 disks). It's also FD and HD compatible.
As for the Ultima files, be careful. I know some of the AD&D games have what looks like duplicate files, but they are different - e.g. WALL0 on 1 disk is different from WALL0 on another. |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Since when is Ultima AD&D?....(:
What is the current price for a 1581, a fd200 or an ide64? and do i still get HDs working with the IDE-64?
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
@Merman:
Regarding the files with the same filename and identical size in Ultima V: Believe me, I compared them with the built-in compare function of Ultraedit, 90% of the files are identical, byte by byte. I understand they have to be on different disks, as those (identical) program files always load datafiles with the same filename, but different content.
@Pi:
I recently saw a FD2000 on EBAY going for 191 Euros, AFAIR. Another prime example of EBAY overpricing is here:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3047186583&ca..
476 Euros (fourhundredandseventysix, in words) for a 100 MB CMD HD-100... I can only shake my head.
In those cases I suggest buying it new from CMD directly.
A 1581 can be bought for as low as 65 Euros. Used Amiga drive mechs are also sold pretty cheap, I got two Chinons for 17,50 last week.
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
A 1581 is worth every penny you spend on it, especially if you can get it as cheap as 65 eur. My only bad experience with it is the mechanics and the fact that is grows picky (constant read errors on certain tracks and problems with the dir) with an old, not too stable 1541-II/1581 transformator. I changed my mech some month ago to a newer amigamech and got a new transformator - and it never worked better.
Glad to hear there's a IDE version of Newcomer showing up soon. A game of that calibre really deserves working on something else than 40 track disks. I'm also curious if any of you have investigated the loaders f.ex Ultima VI or Bards Tale III / Dragon Wars? Even if all you did was modifying the loader to work with an 3,5 drive - instead of exchanging it to f.ex a modified Dreamload - the games would gain much speed from it. Would it be possible to add such a feature you think? Ultima VI uses a IRQ loader of some sort, and i'm not completely sure about the others. |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Quote: Since when is Ultima AD&D?....(:
What is the current price for a 1581, a fd200 or an ide64? and do i still get HDs working with the IDE-64?
What I meant was that the AD&D system has what looks like duplicate files on different disks but they aren't - But as Steppe pointed out, the Ultima files are not like that.
I have a 1581 and an FD. Sweet! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Yeah, still you can't throw everything onto one 3.5" floppy and play ahead. It would work loader-wise, as U5 uses standard kernal routines. However the datafiles called "L" and "U" exist on all disk, they are the ones with differing content.
Now if only someone motivated enough could hack the game to work on 1581 - I'd die for it! :-) |
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Bender
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 9 |
I own an FD2000 and AFAIK it's said to be 100% compatible with the C1581, or am I wrong? Well, the Nostalgia releases won't work even on the "c1581-disks" (DS/DD, formatted for 800K), has anyone else come upon this problem. I also haven't been able to get The Games: Summer Edition/DSD 90 to work, even though it claims to be 1581 compatible. Have you had the same experience or know if something I don't, please tell me.
Btw, I have quite a bunch of games working on FD, if you anyone wants a list, I'll put it up here (all games are easy to find, I've just taken the time to check out if they work - which will save YOU a lot of time!). |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
FD is not 100% compatible with 1581. I've found some stuff that works differently on both although coded to be generic (FD set up with 1581 disk etc.). I also noticed it with my own experiments. Although many things cannot tell difference and work fine on either. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Allright, I finally got my new drive mechanic installed and tested Leaderboard, Bender.
So far I can't share your experience that it takes too long to search the BAM because of the vast amount of files. At least not with Jiffy DOS, every hole doesn't take more than 2 seconds to load.
But I got a different problem here:
Both Star Commander and 64copy don't allow me to copy more than 296 files to the d81, although there are still over 700 blocks free on that disk. Hence, I miss out on courses O and P. Still, it's fun to play without having to swap disks all the time.
Does anybody know if that limitation of 296 BAM entries can somehow be overcome? |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
I have no clue, but just an idea that might work: Maybe you could make a new partition and put the rest of the files in there? I think each partition has it's own BAM. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Yeah, but how do I change partitions while a program is running? %)
(Already had this thought myself with several games) |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
if you have the kernal on, i guess you can send the diskcommand "<partition-name>/" to the drive to enter the partition, and "/" to go back. (ex: "xxx-hardcore-teens/" to enter the partition with the porn files of the game)
I've never tried entering/leaving partitions from anything else than basic, though, but i don't see why it shouldn't work from machinecode aswell.
Don't know how easy this is though, when you gotta 'crack' the game... Maybe the BAM can be extended.. that would be easier. :)
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Thanks for the support, but if you think about it - where's the point?
Entering the monitor and issuing a command takes about the same amount of time (if not more) than just changing a disk. ;-)
Besides, with the REU occupying the cartridge port already I can't have a cartridge with a monitor inserted at the same time. I know, there are cartridge port expanders, but I don't have such a thing. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Er, wait, there's no REU in Leaderboard. I confused the thread with the MW4 question I asked earlier today. :-) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Project64 has 1581 manual and / partitions are a little limited in some ways but that will be the only fix to your files problems. 1581 can only support 296 files in the main dir. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
(ofcoz i didn't mean entering the monitor and changing partitions - i thought you were gonna 'crack' (<- well, more or less) the game - i mean: put in code to change partitions) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Nah, honestly, I'm too lame for such things. ;-) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
I disassembled and analyzed the Ultima IV loader, and I have it in readable source form. The game uses a link table in ram and reads raw 256 byte sectors off the disk, so the loader has to be rewritten completely to support normal file loading.
But some day...
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Hmm... Ultima IV or Ultima VI? I didn't take notice at first, but then I realized that Ultima IV never have been discussed earlier in this thread - just Ultima V and VI. |
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
Quote: I own an FD2000 and AFAIK it's said to be 100% compatible with the C1581, or am I wrong? Well, the Nostalgia releases won't work even on the "c1581-disks" (DS/DD, formatted for 800K), has anyone else come upon this problem. I also haven't been able to get The Games: Summer Edition/DSD 90 to work, even though it claims to be 1581 compatible. Have you had the same experience or know if something I don't, please tell me.
Btw, I have quite a bunch of games working on FD, if you anyone wants a list, I'll put it up here (all games are easy to find, I've just taken the time to check out if they work - which will save YOU a lot of time!).
Bender, yes the FD is bugging on our N0S games. Someone in
ntsc land mentioned to me it was working on FD over there,
but I havent gotten to verify that yet. If so, the bug is
simply a NOP in the handshaking routine.
The games are working on my 1581 drive. I have tested them all, when they fail it is due to bad disks. And I have experienced that on a few disks myself.
So make sure the disks are errorfree.
To copy the games I reccomend using starcommander and
a 1541 drive. After that use m5-1581 copy to file copy the files from 1541 to 1581.
6R6
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Anything wrong with 1581Copy, can use Star Commander to edit D81 and xfer direct. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Using 1581copy myself, never had problems with it. All it takes are two properly aligned drives. ;-)
The 1581 support in SC really sucks big time (no offense, Joe), you feel set back to the old datasette days, where you loaded the game, then went to make homework. And when you came back it was either finished or you had a ?LOAD ERROR on screen... ;-) |
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
Quote: Anything wrong with 1581Copy, can use Star Commander to edit D81 and xfer direct.
1581copy is a nice tool for smaller files. But for large files, for instance a iffl file of 300+ blocks, it only gives me errors. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Well I don't use it for files within a 1581 disk image - just for a plain disk image itself. Would be sweet if it worked under XP.
I use my own tools for the disk image fiddling.
I was only asking because GRG suggested copying to 1541 then to 1581 (way slower than the quick time 1581Copy takes).
Back to the original idea - I've found many older multilevel cracks worked fine with my FD as most used ROM file routines. Sweetness for the JiffyDOS people etc. |
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
Stryyker, I do it your way, I fill up a output.d81 image
and transfer with 1581COPY /B OUTPUT.D81 A:
But that doesnt work for me on large games.
Moving all the files from my version of Project Firestart into a d81 image and copy with 1581copy doesnt work.
Copying with SC -> 1541 and then 1541 -> 1581 does work!
Maybe it has to do with what kind of hardware your pc got,
so I am only suggesting that the safest method seems to
be the slow method.
<6R6> |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I don't use the BAM copy like you. Perhaps this part is bugged? I'm a simple 1581copy sthing.d81 a: |
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
Some news regarding FD2000/4000 :
The bug we had with those drives has been
fixed, and our next games featuring the iffls routine will
work for FD users as well. It has only taken 2 years to
find out what was wrong....
Look out for iffls v3.5.
Many thanks to Ninja/Dreams for debugging.
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Bender
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 9 |
That's great news! Will the games with the old routine be re-released with the new one installed? That would totally rock! |
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
I am considering. I do have backups of most of my work files from the last 2-3 years. The fix is rather easy to do, the old iffl routine will work for FD if you remove 4 or 5 BCS lines in the scanner and loader code.
If you want to test for yourself I can tell you what
to do....
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
Actually this makes me wonder, how many browsing these
forums are using FD-2000 or FD-4000? Say 'AYE' |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
AYE |
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Macbeth
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11 |
AYE too! |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
Aye!
However, mine is an internal FD 4000 unit, inside a c128d computer. Does that count? :)
-Todd Elliott |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
AYE (FD-2000) |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
I'd like to know, if there are other ROM-versions around except V1.40. Could you guys please check the start-up-message? And perhaps even the ROM-checksum at $8002/3? |
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
FD2000 v1.40 here. Oh yeah, AYE! |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Sorry for some degree of thread hijack but I'm also now experimenting with 1581/CMD FD/CMD HD fastloader support (with motive of integration into MW4 & release of information on covertbitops). Anyone interested in testing please mail to loorni@student.oulu.fi
(and thanks to DocBacardi & Ninja for support) |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
Hmm, I hope you guys did not forget about my question about FD-ROMs during the time when CSDb was offline. I am still very interested if there are different versions around, especially concerning FD4000. Please help! |
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
I have uploaded a testrun of the new iffl loader here:
http://home.eunet.no/~ggallefo/gallery/iffls35.zip
I want everyone of you who own a FD or HD to download this file and test that this is working. I know that FD
disks have 3 different modes, but Ninja says it should
work in any mode. Well, I just need you to test this
for me. Then I can start using this routine.
Stats:
* The drive scanning should take 10 seconds. (++)
* Iffl to REU completed in 22 seconds on my 1581.
* Iffl to REU completed in 1 minute and 20 seconds on my 1541.
6R6 / N0S
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
NTSC C128, FD2000 1.4 native partition, 512KB REU
I get about 20 seconds buffer-to-REU time with all configurations: Warp, Normal/JiffyDOS, and Normal. |
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6r6_Nostalgia
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 14 |
Whiteflame, cool! Thank you! :)
The difference between warp and normal can only be
seen when you DON'T use REU. |
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Fierman
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 85 |
Thanks to a number of people I have been able to gather quite some games that work on 1581: (not all multidisk though)
http://fierman.org/c64/1581
If anyone has some more, I would be happy to add them to the collection. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Fierman Necromancer ...
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Fierman
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 85 |
Quote: Fierman Necromancer ...
;-)
Harmless fun, and who knows the images may come in handy sometimes. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Not doubting that - proper reaction would have been to start a new thread and encourage ppl to tell you about more releases working on "exotics" though :)
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