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2024-02-01 16:54

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493

An update on ‘Pixel art in the C64 demoscene’

Dear fellow sceners,

In response to the comments we received, we’ve made some changes to the document.
Our goal was always to find common ground to maintain the fun and integrity of our hobby.

What this is not:
- It’s not written to limit anyone (only to encourage openness)
- It’s not aimed at specific individuals (it’s a scene wide practice)

Read the document here

We’d really love to hear your thoughts on this update.
Please post them in this thread, be kind and keep it constructive and on-topic please.

... 127 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-02-03 11:28

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 121

Well said Joe!
In the long run, the truth (honesty) will always set people free.

2024-02-03 14:06

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11164

Quote:

The line may be in different places for other people. And what counts as a "proper gfx guy", someone well-established in the scene? What does that mean for new artists?

To me it is "proper" if it can be convincingly related to a real person (which is obviously easier for established sceners). Unknown people who pop up from nowhere and then produce top 10 stuff (without having a former track record - lman comes to mind as someone who did, and had, here) will always raise questions - and none of what was said before would change this, because that is just extremely unlikely.

2024-02-03 16:52

The Sarge

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 43

First, well said Joe! Very much agree on everything you wrote.

And now on to what I want to say.

Why do we ask for transparency?

Two scenarios for making an image for standalone GFX compos or graphics for demo compos. There’s maybe more but for easy comparison I made these two.

Scenario 1
1. Google something cool and save that image. Or prompt an AI and save that image.
2. Convert it, pixel over it, put your name on it and you’re done.

Scenario 2
1. Start drawing and painting when you are young, lets say you start at year two or three.
2. Practice, practice, practice and when you are 14-15 years old your art are starting to turn out pretty good.
3. By this time you have learned the coordination of the hand and brain. Shapes, anatomy, composition, lighting, color theory and it will only get better and better.
4. Now maybe you make a decision to do pixel art because you feel this is your thing. You use all the life long learning and put it to use with your first pixels.

Yes, it’s 15 years of learning. Sounds a lot. But now that knowledge is yours.

After this your skills will only evolve and you will keep getting better and better. More on point with your art, more stylised perhaps, really finding your thing within the realm of art. You grow immensely as a human. Understanding the why’s.

There is also the process of coming up with a theme, idea and everything that makes your image great for a graphic compo that is shortcutted out in Scenario 1.

So which scenario do we in the end want? Do we want real or fake?

One thing with transparency is it make it fair for the person that chose the Scenario 2 path because he/she thought it was the right thing to do.

Do we really want more Scenario 1 art? While there sometimes may be a reason for choosing Scenario 1 let’s at least be transparent and fair to your fellow scener and also to the original artist.
You can always ask yourself if you made art that was great, so great someone else would like to remove your name on it and put their own name on it and by that claiming it all is theirs and pretending they are a Scenario 2 artist. How would you feel about that?

The scene more or less did Scenario 1 back in the day and most recently maybe. But this doc is proposing a new shift in how we produce and think about art for our beloved C64. This is not about what has been done, its about what we do further on. What do we want to be remembered for?
As Electric said some while ago, he tried to find C64 demos that he could show in art exhibition but he had such a hard time finding original art that he could show.

Isn’t it better to be remembered for making our own thing from now on instead of using characters from super heroes without giving credit? Draw one yourself and pixel it. It will be so much better and have soul, your soul.
And that is important. You express yourself with your art. Not someone else’s.

Im sure this can work if we just agree to be transparent and honest with each other. After all, we are all friends and want to be good to each other.

2024-02-03 17:05

vincenzo

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 79

What would be your advice to a totally new and beginner person(s) who want to start pixeling?
Let's say:
1. young person without any experience with oldschool computers or graphics
2. middle aged person who has experience with newschool computers but without graphics experience

In my opinion it's very nice to have rules and guideance, but I'm not sure this document in its current form does even address people outside the scene. What is its purpose exactly?
I'm asking this because potentially I misunderstand something here. There's no encouragement of new people who have interest in drawing. If it's only about the demoscene, then all is good and clear.

2024-02-03 17:23

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote: What would be your advice to a totally new and beginner person(s) who want to start pixeling?
Let's say:
1. young person without any experience with oldschool computers or graphics
2. middle aged person who has experience with newschool computers but without graphics experience

In my opinion it's very nice to have rules and guideance, but I'm not sure this document in its current form does even address people outside the scene. What is its purpose exactly?
I'm asking this because potentially I misunderstand something here. There's no encouragement of new people who have interest in drawing. If it's only about the demoscene, then all is good and clear.

I don't really see how it's any more or less relevant to newcomers than people who've been making C64 graphics since the 80s.

You mentioned pixelling, so I presume we're not talking someone who just wants to convert graphics and fix a few pixels.

If someone wants to recreate someone elses work either to learn, or just because that's what interests them, that's fine, they're just being asked to be transparent about it (there's a section on fan-art). If someone is hand-pixelling original pieces then I feel they would appreciate that kind of thing being encouraged within the scene.

When I started in the late-90s, people were encouraging me to start attempting my own pieces, so this isn't new.

2024-02-03 17:30

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036

I can see it from my daughters progress. She started with doing fan art. Her enthusiasm was fuelled by interest in characters. Later she started doing her own stuff (own characters). Own stuff maybe get's less interactions and likes, but it's honest way to progress. In school they do a lot of own stuff and they teach them various techinques and media. She still loves to do fanart from time to time.

So, to answer your question. Advice for totally new beginner who start pixelling would probably be something along these lines: Use whatever you love to do, whatever way you do. Be sincere and upfront about sources and techniques if you upload your entries to the scene database. Fill in the production notes. it will help the audience understand your process and results, and judge it accordingly.

2024-02-03 19:05

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2870

Quoting The Sarge

Scenario 1
1. Google something cool and save that image. Or prompt an AI and save that image.
2. Convert it, pixel over it, put your name on it and you’re done.

Scenario 2
[no AI at all]

I may be a bit naive (with an entirely wrong idea about how pixel graphics are made), but isn't this a bit of a false dichotomy?

As in, what about a third scenario, where you use AI to give you some ideas for a certain background object, or composition, or the like?
Or to give you that particular background object, which you'd take and modify (after AI involvement) to suit your needs and integrate it via the rest of your toolchain?

2024-02-04 10:50

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493

Quoting Krill

I may be a bit naive (with an entirely wrong idea about how pixel graphics are made), but isn't this a bit of a false dichotomy?

As in, what about a third scenario, where you use AI to give you some ideas for a certain background object, or composition, or the like?
Or to give you that particular background object, which you'd take and modify (after AI involvement) to suit your needs and integrate it via the rest of your toolchain?

I believe The Sarge sketched the two extremes, as there are many scenario’s in-between.
Like you said, one example could be incorporating elements of AI in your work, in a supporting way.

In the end it boils down to:
- Doing it all yourself: Full creative authorship
- Outsourcing parts of the process to e.g. AI: Less creative authorship (to any extent)

Here’s a graph.

It doesn’t automatically mean the results have no or little creative value. It’s debatable in each case, depending to what extent AI has been applied.

As for your example earlier in this thread
It is creative use of AI images, tied together by a (assumingly, a human made) creative concept.
- Without the concept, how would you value each image seperately? I'd say, rather worthless.
- What if the concept was also AI generated? How would you value the demo and the author? I wouldn't value the 'author'.
- What if it was all kept a secret? Then the author would suggestively claim it all.

(As a side-note; As long as the prompt ‘cool bird’ (example) generates beautiful images, one can not claim artistic ownership over style, composition, etc. AI will give you 99+% of the image for free, so without a great human idea, it is generally just covering up creative poverty).

2024-02-04 15:51

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1054

Quoting Sander

Here’s a graph.

Exactly. One could ask where to draw the line in relation to graphics competitions :)

For X'2024 I will make the necessary changes in votox to support transparency. This includes workstages.zip support and a better option to share the creative process in text. All will be shared automatically during voting.

I will not mandate transparency, but rely on proper scener behaviors: respect your fellow artists, please don't wire or use AI :)

2024-02-04 16:59

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 242

Quoting Sander

I believe The Sarge sketched the two extremes, as there are many scenario’s in-between.
Like you said, one example could be incorporating elements of AI in your work, in a supporting way.

In the end it boils down to:
- Doing it all yourself: Full creative authorship
- Outsourcing parts of the process to e.g. AI: Less creative authorship (to any extent)

Here’s a graph.

I can pixell all the pixels by hand, yet image might not be creative at all. Creativity is much more complicated than that.

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