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2025-02-09 09:52

The Sarge

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 55

Release id #249171 : Blue Monday

Karaoke night with PAL.

@PAL I read your parabel to the scene and karaoke. This is a great way to put it!
I think it is so good so it's worthy of a comment but since this is not about the release itself I started this thread.

I think this is exactly what the scene is about. You cooked it down perfectly and this is also something that resonates with me 100% and something Ive been saying all along.
I doesn't matter how off key it is, as long as it is you who sing, all will celebrate the honest effort and daring attempt to show yourself in a vulnerable moment. And as a bonus maybe next time you will sing a bit better, if it even matters. :)

I guess this is what I want to see in the scene. The honesty and your personality rather than AI.
Yes here comes the AI talk. But since you illustrated it so perfectly I saw a moment where there may be a time to find common ground.

For me AI is like going up, mimic and play professional sounding prerecorded singing in a karaoke bar. What's the point of that? I want to see YOU and what you are about. I'd rather go to a karaoke bar than watch Eurovision Song Contest.

All the respect PAL!

Included PALs comment below for context.

"PS:

I went to a karaoke bar tonight and had so much fun, it made me think about our demo scene.

They all grabbed the microphone. I guess their hearts were pounding, their voices trembling. Some soared, some stumbled, and to be completely honest, many sounded truly horrible.

The crowd sang along, laughed, smiled, cried, cheered, and clapped, not for my satisfaction or the perfection of it all, but for the courage of those who dared to put on a show. For a few golden hours tonight, there was no judgment, only karaoke music, love and pure joy between people wanting to have a great time together.

In another our scene, hard working artists and creators invest massively, pouring their hearts into their demos, music, art or other creations, only to face cold words from those who think they can dictate what is "correct" based on their own narrow views and what they want.

If life were more like my karaoke night, where every voice, no matter if offkey, was worth celebrating, the world would be a better place.

PSS: I sang tonight too. It was the worst one in a way… The whole night was hillbilly and upbeat tunes, what we in Norway call harry music, and I went up there and sang a slow Bowie tune. Lol. I loved it and they did too!"

... 21 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2025-02-09 13:38

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 526

Quote: Isn't wielding the anti-AI pitchfork an example of

"cold words from those who think they can dictate what is "correct" based on their own narrow views and what they want."?

Any difference to wielding the anti-frames pitchfork? ;)

2025-02-09 13:43

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1134

Quoting 4gentE

What I want to say is that this kind of talk I’m about to quote bothers me immensely:
Quote:
But the cat's out of the bag. There will be no world without GenAI, better start embracing the new world

Why THE F*CK?
What you talk about (people fear losing their jobs etc.) is happening IRL because of greed of the techbro class. Nothing new. Gen AI is the newest and baddest tool using which they can squeeze more out of creatives and spend less on the said creatives’ salaries. I get it. Buy why embrace it here? Where is that capitalist/economic incentive here in this community?

P.S. Telling old farts that jerk around with 40+ year old toy computers to start embracing the new world. :D

We, old farts jerking around on a 40+ year old toy computer, have zero influence on what changes happen in the world around us. It's a dog-eat-dog world: innovate or be left behind.
Same reason why there are no graphicians left doing all their pixeling on real hardware in koala paint. There are no coders left that don't use cross compilation and other platform tools. Some have used cloud computing to bruteforce c64 code solutions. Many use an AI copilot. And soon, all of them will.

IRL, using GenAI is no longer optional, it is a must for coders, doctors, artists, graphicians, musicians, writers, analysts, etc etc.
The old ways have become obsolete, as many other old ways have become obsolete before. You may not like it, and that's fine, but I think it's better to accept the changing world around you, instead of chastising the ones that already do.

If you decide to ignore the massive innovation, GenAI *will* take your jerbs. We live in a capitalist society, it has major flaws, but it's the only thing we got and at least it works a bit.

And plz don't kill the messenger, I also see the dangers that AI imposes to the world (and scene), essentially it's just stealing from ppl that did not consent to being copied. I'm just being realistic.

2025-02-09 14:01

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 325

@Burg
I find the world you’re describing utterly sad.

One thing tho: you make it sound as if there are no calligraphers doing things the old way. As if there are no woodblock pressers doing things the old way. As if there are no needlepointers doing things the old way. As if there are no writers using mechanical typewriters. As if there are no people cooking their meals and hot beverages the old way.

What we do here is arts&crafts, not industry. That’s why I (perhaps wrongly) feel there is still hope.

2025-02-09 14:08

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 3079

Hobbies to do things in old and less efficient, yet fulfilling meditative ways will always remain.

2025-02-09 15:00

The Sarge

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 55

Out for a long walk and excited to come back and read... ok the same thing again...

No @Burglar, Im not trying to "twist" what PAL wrote. I thought what he wrote was very good and it touched me in a good way. I found out that we probably think the same with how we see things and what makes us happy. I tried to make a parable with AI.
I still don't think it failed.
There may be faults in my writing, my choice of words, Im a Swedish guy that didn't learn much at school. But I saw an opening to maybe have a better discussion this time thanks to PALs writing. Adding a human touch to it. Please disregard my errors in writing and try to understand what I wrote.

Also "because this happens in the real world" doesn't automatically means it needs to happen here too. Do we really want that? We are in control of our little scene. And this is what I meant with the PAL parable. He put it so nicely. Better than I ever could have done.

2025-02-09 16:11

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1134

Quoting The Sarge

ok the same thing again...

Yep, bring AI into a discussion and the debate will converge to the same points, over and over again, it's what GenAI is very good at ;) Why would it have been different this time?

Quoting The Sarge

No @Burglar, Im not trying to "twist" what PAL wrote. I thought what he wrote was very good and it touched me in a good way. I found out that we probably think the same with how we see things and what makes us happy. I tried to make a parable with AI.
I still don't think it failed.
There may be faults in my writing, my choice of words, Im a Swedish guy that didn't learn much at school. But I saw an opening to maybe have a better discussion this time thanks to PALs writing. Adding a human touch to it. Please disregard my errors in writing and try to understand what I wrote.

I'm now at risk of doing the same thing, possibly misinterpreting PAL's very nice story :)
For me this quote stands out and gives the moral of his story:
Quote:

In our scene, hard working artists and creators invest massively, pouring their hearts into their demos, music, art or other creations, only to face cold words from those who think they can dictate what is "correct" based on their own narrow views and what they want.

For me the second part of the sentence is key: stop complaining about ppl not following your standards. Where I think your standards are: no AI, no 3rd party references, no conversion tools, only free drawing and hand-pixeling allowed, mandatory workstages, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong :)
Seems you prioritized the first part of the sentence and compared it to "you doing real creations with real effort" vs "that lamer used AI", which is very understandable.

For me PAL's main point is that we should stop complaining and finger pointing about how others do their c64 stuff, let ppl have fun. Of course I could be mistaken, but it seems in line with what PAL wrote in other threads. Hence my statement about twisting words. I'm not saying your standards are bad, on the contrary, I think everybody entering gfx compos should adhere to them.

Quoting The Sarge

We are in control of our little scene.

I think that's wishful thinking. Every person can do whatever they want, everything will be archived here, including useless crap because some kid changed a sys-line in a crack back in 1986.

There is only some control with compo rules, but also there, it's hard/impossible to enforce. Sander shared a link to an AI that creates believable workstages. In a short period, the AI will be able to create believable videos of creation too.

This doesn't mean we should not try though, the hand-made gfx compo at Fjalldata is a great example and it was awesome to see it was so successful and well received.

2025-02-09 16:34

Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 387

Quoting Burglar

... stop complaining about ppl not following your standards...

THIS!

2025-02-09 16:38

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 325

Quote:

In a short period, the AI will be able to create believable videos of creation too.

Oh, it's already here.

2025-02-09 16:46

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 325

Quote:

stop complaining about ppl not following your standards...

You know, this works both ways. So it could go something like "stop complaining about people complaining about ppl not following your standards."

So, what you're saying is: everybody should be free to do whatever he/she wants, but not everybody should be free to comment on that. What? I see it like this: if you put yourself and your work out there - you're gonna get feedback, positive or negative, own it, don't cry and whine after the fact.

2025-02-09 17:00

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1134

Quoting 4gentE

Quote:
stop complaining about ppl not following your standards...

You know, this works both ways. So it could go something like "stop complaining about people complaining about ppl not following your standards."

So, what you're saying is: everybody should be free to do whatever he/she wants, but not everybody should be free to comment on that. What? I see it like this: if you put yourself and your work out there - you're gonna get feedback, positive or negative, own it, don't cry and whine after the fact.

oh I agree, maybe better to say "stop trying to enforce your personal standards onto others, we don't want to be controlled by you.". I dunno, I was trying to rephrase another person's message.

I totally agree with calling ppl out if they release some low effort AI/wire job.

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