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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
will some 1 please tell me why
we have in the last days votet some groups in top 5! just for fun .......... and the most funny about it is few minutes after some 1 votet it down with 1 point , it seems to be somebody like to bee on the top 5 , so please can we get publised votes in here so we can see who the rullers are there are the voting 1 point for groups in here ..... |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
@tdj:
i completely disagree with you on this. i do not think the voting system favors the new guys. in fact it favors the old guys. and i think this way it decreases the motivation for new people. for example in diskmags, the editors edit the charts so that no inactive people show up. if you were to remove those guys that haven't released anything for two years from charts the csdb charts would look very different (and more accurate). i mean take the coder charts for example. there are guys like quiss and tts in high ranks. competing with tts is like competing a ghost. no matter how good they were their inactivity should not be favored over people like hollowman or ninja or iopop who are the active players of the scene today. i know c64 scene itself is by definition related to nostalgia but those who keep the scene alive today should not be judged against people who haven't been around for a decade. we don't have bohemian rapsody in charts now do we?
maybe the best solution is to divide charts into all time and current. so that the all time best can remain to be recognized, while best of today get the ranks they deserve. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: @tdj:
i completely disagree with you on this. i do not think the voting system favors the new guys. in fact it favors the old guys. and i think this way it decreases the motivation for new people. for example in diskmags, the editors edit the charts so that no inactive people show up. if you were to remove those guys that haven't released anything for two years from charts the csdb charts would look very different (and more accurate). i mean take the coder charts for example. there are guys like quiss and tts in high ranks. competing with tts is like competing a ghost. no matter how good they were their inactivity should not be favored over people like hollowman or ninja or iopop who are the active players of the scene today. i know c64 scene itself is by definition related to nostalgia but those who keep the scene alive today should not be judged against people who haven't been around for a decade. we don't have bohemian rapsody in charts now do we?
maybe the best solution is to divide charts into all time and current. so that the all time best can remain to be recognized, while best of today get the ranks they deserve.
Bullsh*t.
This is not a mag, so don't compare these charts with charts in the mags. CSDB is all about history (it's a database for god's sake!), so the charts should stay like they are right now: all-time charts.
Your example (Bohemian Rhapsody) is not in the top 40 but in most of the top 100 ever charts. As it should be.
If you want current charts load up arachnophobia or one of those other brilliant mags. You give me my Queen, and then you can keep your Britney Spears for yourself, so to speak :)
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Ter-o
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 5 |
chill out guys :D I think this conversation started to take wrong direction... but.. what should I know, I'm a lamer, who started in c64 scene only 2 years ago... :P well how about a system (which was probably mentioned before) that everyone votes their top 5-10 of all-time in every genre.. takes more work but then it would make good to oldschool elites and talented newcomers too...
dunno... this definately is a difficult issue... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: chill out guys :D I think this conversation started to take wrong direction... but.. what should I know, I'm a lamer, who started in c64 scene only 2 years ago... :P well how about a system (which was probably mentioned before) that everyone votes their top 5-10 of all-time in every genre.. takes more work but then it would make good to oldschool elites and talented newcomers too...
dunno... this definately is a difficult issue...
Don't worry, I ain't mad, I just think it's strange to say that active sceners don't have a chance when all the charts show a perfect mix of old & new.
Now don't make me go give examples :) |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
Quote: Bullsh*t.
This is not a mag, so don't compare these charts with charts in the mags. CSDB is all about history (it's a database for god's sake!), so the charts should stay like they are right now: all-time charts.
Your example (Bohemian Rhapsody) is not in the top 40 but in most of the top 100 ever charts. As it should be.
If you want current charts load up arachnophobia or one of those other brilliant mags. You give me my Queen, and then you can keep your Britney Spears for yourself, so to speak :)
:)))))
i am a big fan of queen and especially bohemian rapsody. as i am a big fan of tts and quiss. that is why i chose bohemian rapsody as an example. but on the other hand i do not think your examples britney speartits or arachnophobia mag are accurately representing what i was meaning with newcomers and diskmags:)
should csdb include current charts are all time charts. hmm i think you have a point when you say this is a database and so it should have all time charts. i am convinced on this point.
on the other hand i have some doubts about whether is there any fair way to compare coders of two different decades. somethink that looks trivial today can be an amazing achievement 10 years ago. so new coders have advantage or vice versa i think coders of old times had more margin to the limits of hardware. that is it is getting harder and harder to break records etc.
my point is how can one judge is oswald a better coder than slammer for example. notice i am choosing examples very carefully and i hope you see the logic behind it and don't come up with another comparison between freddy mercury and enrique iglesias(just kidding:)) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: :)))))
i am a big fan of queen and especially bohemian rapsody. as i am a big fan of tts and quiss. that is why i chose bohemian rapsody as an example. but on the other hand i do not think your examples britney speartits or arachnophobia mag are accurately representing what i was meaning with newcomers and diskmags:)
should csdb include current charts are all time charts. hmm i think you have a point when you say this is a database and so it should have all time charts. i am convinced on this point.
on the other hand i have some doubts about whether is there any fair way to compare coders of two different decades. somethink that looks trivial today can be an amazing achievement 10 years ago. so new coders have advantage or vice versa i think coders of old times had more margin to the limits of hardware. that is it is getting harder and harder to break records etc.
my point is how can one judge is oswald a better coder than slammer for example. notice i am choosing examples very carefully and i hope you see the logic behind it and don't come up with another comparison between freddy mercury and enrique iglesias(just kidding:))
Hey, don't you dare to diss enrique inglesias! The boy got style, dammit! :)
Comparing people from 15 years ago to those of today is very, very hard ..
With demos it's (a bit) easier: I myself have been in the process of rating demos for ages now, hoping to get a final list of productions that really stand out from the rest. Most demos I used to love dearly didn't stand the test of time but some do and they can easily be placed next to the best of the new generation.
I remember the impact a lot of coders had back when, but newer sceners don't, all they can do is imagine it. Since that's quite hard most people won't do that, and hence, won't vote for such people. Which brings me back to my original point that newer sceners get more votes. Because let's face it, there are more 'new school' than 'old school' sceners on csdb. 90% of the people I worked with in 1988 have left the scene a long time ago, and don't give a fuck about this. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Charts have always been odd. Take the music charts, i always remember Jeroen Tel making the top 10 two or more years after he quit. For a magazine to have charts, then they should base the votes on votes based on what has been released from one issue to another [asking alot i know] /WEC |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Charts have always been odd. Take the music charts, i always remember Jeroen Tel making the top 10 two or more years after he quit. For a magazine to have charts, then they should base the votes on votes based on what has been released from one issue to another [asking alot i know] /WEC
So you're looking for a top 3 instead of a top 10 then? :) |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
There's a boatload of things that can be done to improve this and yet, at the same time, nothing ever WILL really make the votes perfect. It's been a gripe since day one... downvoting, bla bla, it's a scene epidemic.
We could organize the charts into "per year" or "per era" categories. That way, say group A has an overall rating of 5.6 all-time, but since they were the highest rated group from 1985, they would be #1 in the 1985 charts. Of course, this relies on accurate information on when the groups existed (founding and dissolving dates)... which we don't have, far as I know.
Or we could change the voting system entirely and determine the rankings of groups and/or sceners by the votes that their productions recieved. In this manner, we could vote "Demo A" a 9 and "Demo B" might be 5, etc., and the overall group score would be determined by those numbers.
This could also be done for the individuals that contributed for those demos... but it would be innacurate, as always, because say, hypothetically, that Graham and I contributed code to the same demo. If the demo then gets a rating of 9, then I also get a 9, which is preposterous because my contribution was probably awful.
On that same thread, we can use the scener charts to determine rankings for a demo group. If Coder A gets a rating of 9, then his group (of whom he is the only coder) also gets a 9 as a "code" rating.
Most of those ideas are wildly unpractical.
This idea isn't, though... and I even kind of like it. We can kind of mesh ALL the votes together... so that if a group has nine votes for an an overall rating of 7 or something, you could take that and then work the overall ratings of it's productions (and/or sceners) into it as well. In this way, we increase the overall votes that each group/release/scener gets and diminish the result of downvoting -- which will never be erradicated.
So Group A has 9 votes for an overall rating of 7, then we add the 14 votes that it's production, "Demo" recieved for a score of 8... and we end up with 21 votes, the average of which I don't feel like figuring out.
My last thought is to just implement a downvoting blocker. A single account votes #1 three or more times, and he loses the right to vote. Also not going to stop downvoting, but it's a thought nonetheless.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled griping.
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: So you're looking for a top 3 instead of a top 10 then? :)
*heh*
Well i have no objection to a magazine featuring a all time top 20 charts covering Artists, Musician, Coders, Cracker etc. Although to give the present people a chance and to keep charts alittle interesting, a chart based on current releases would be better. As for a top 3, it all depends how many releases there are between a mazagine releasing it`s issues. If a magazine were to be released very month then the charts would be very small. If how ever you take a magazine for example Internal (which is released maybe every 6 months at best) then the charts would paint a different picture /WEC :)
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