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2022-08-28 09:06

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513

Release id #218343 : E2IRA

The highest level of admiration is imitation ;)
Joker guys made our day at Xenium with this one!
https://youtu.be/kl8dH7ooRyU

... 107 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2023-03-31 10:36

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

I found ready made libraries for python that can be used for lossy charpacking, but to call that codepron? no mate. thats not it.

2023-03-31 10:47

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088

Quoting Oswald

I found ready made libraries for python that can be used for lossy charpacking, but to call that codepron? no mate. thats not it.

If code doesn't give Oswald a stiffy, it's not codepron!

2023-04-01 14:46

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 219

I’ve read somwhere that C64 demoscene nowadays is roughly the size of PC demoscene. I don’t know if that’s correct, but I’ll pretend it is for the sake of the argument and try to express my thoughts on why I think that came to be.
I will try to express my views carefully because I wouldn’t want to insult or enrage anyone. After all these are just my views.
I have a (somewhat informed) feeling that what makes a good, succesful contemporary C64 demo (and I could be wrong here, feel free to correct me), what determines its “look and feel” is predominantly good audio-visual design. Overall visual “neatness” plus timing. So, graphic and motion design propelled by pixelling exellence in gfx department and crazy exellence in sound design/tunes. Plus neat transitions. That became the norm. All this is powered by SID and VIC-II. If, on the other hand, one looks at ZX or Atari 8bit demos, they are mostly essentially different. For one, of course they look and sound very differently having very different audio and video hardware. But the deciding factor for me saying they are “essentially different” comes from the observation that they mostly rely on code, not on audio-visual-motion design. This is not to say that there is no excellent code on C64 or no excellent audio-visual-motion design on ZX or Atari 8bit. This is just a general observation.
The situation reminds me of the late 80s/early 90s situation in Amiga/Atari ST scenes. Amiga demos pretty quickly deviated from reliance on code pr0n to reliance on audio-visual-motion design. While Atari ST demos almost never deviated to this point, they always stayed firmly relied on code pr0n.
I think this was caused by the hardware. It seems like Commodore was consistently producing home multimedia machines, while the rest were producing generic (general use) home computers.
What does this long rant have to do with the topic you ask? Well, I can feel this misunderstanding is at the core of the whole argument. The goalposts for C64 demos have moved, just like it was with the Amiga back then. Some people feel that the goalposts should never have moved. They feel this is unfair. So they have their own intimate goalposts which are now increasingly getting out of sync with general C64 public.
And demos in essence ARE audio-visual artifacts. Audio-visual stimuli are the language of the output. Code, while being absolutely essential, is the input. Only Cypher from that movie (you know which one) can really “see” code. But that’s only a movie. So I think it’s natural that demos get evaluated mainly on merit of their output..
Please excuse me for writing this boring ass “essay” that could sound like ChatGPT-produced garbage, comrades. The C64 scene does not need a “culture war”. Nor a “hardscience” vs “softscience” dispute.

2023-04-01 15:25

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969

"Codepr0n" is still very much a thing on C-64, but with the added requirement of top-notch graphics, sound, and overall presentation.

This may make the amazing code stand out less, but it's still there.

On the other hand, there are more and more artists in the C-64 scene who want their creations to be featured in demos, such that the coders cannot keep up with producing "codepr0n".
Then you get more of the kind of demo with outstanding production values in the art department, but maybe 1 or 2 exciting effects.

It's similar in the Amiga scene, but the relative shortage of coders is a lot more dire over there.

2023-04-01 18:40

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11356

Quote: 'how how' eh?

Isnt there some shitty picture waiting to be converted?

2023-04-01 18:50

vincenzo

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 83

Quote: "Codepr0n" is still very much a thing on C-64, but with the added requirement of top-notch graphics, sound, and overall presentation.

This may make the amazing code stand out less, but it's still there.

On the other hand, there are more and more artists in the C-64 scene who want their creations to be featured in demos, such that the coders cannot keep up with producing "codepr0n".
Then you get more of the kind of demo with outstanding production values in the art department, but maybe 1 or 2 exciting effects.

It's similar in the Amiga scene, but the relative shortage of coders is a lot more dire over there.

It was the same on PC in the mid-late 90's too. Demos become more artistic (more focus on design, story, flow, etc.) where code doesn't play such a big role because "we've already seen all the effects" so let's make something different. This is where I see 2 possible direction on the C64 too:
1. codepr0n, go well beyond the possibilities but who will appreciate the same effect with 1 frame faster every time? only coders will.
2. try something different, be more artistic and just ignore haters who say "there's no code in your demo"

There's no point of arguing which one is better because each direction is valid, and combining the 2 sides would be the ultimate best: make artistically and technically good demos, don't be afraid to change your mindset and be open for demos that are not conventional.

2023-04-01 19:35

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

Quote: It was the same on PC in the mid-late 90's too. Demos become more artistic (more focus on design, story, flow, etc.) where code doesn't play such a big role because "we've already seen all the effects" so let's make something different. This is where I see 2 possible direction on the C64 too:
1. codepr0n, go well beyond the possibilities but who will appreciate the same effect with 1 frame faster every time? only coders will.
2. try something different, be more artistic and just ignore haters who say "there's no code in your demo"

There's no point of arguing which one is better because each direction is valid, and combining the 2 sides would be the ultimate best: make artistically and technically good demos, don't be afraid to change your mindset and be open for demos that are not conventional.

its not like coderporn can only be the same effects always a bit faster. coderporn and good design can go hand in hand. (hello BoOze ;). I am against this idea that it really doesnt matter how it was done, then just do animations for youtube, what does it matter if it wasnt done for c64 ? :P Something must matter.

2023-04-01 19:41

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11356

Kind funny how the arguments are so similar to what was said when discussing how using libraries and crossassemblers for making c64 demos is lame - with Graham, 30 years ago :)

2023-04-01 19:45

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

Quote: I’ve read somwhere that C64 demoscene nowadays is roughly the size of PC demoscene. I don’t know if that’s correct, but I’ll pretend it is for the sake of the argument and try to express my thoughts on why I think that came to be.
I will try to express my views carefully because I wouldn’t want to insult or enrage anyone. After all these are just my views.
I have a (somewhat informed) feeling that what makes a good, succesful contemporary C64 demo (and I could be wrong here, feel free to correct me), what determines its “look and feel” is predominantly good audio-visual design. Overall visual “neatness” plus timing. So, graphic and motion design propelled by pixelling exellence in gfx department and crazy exellence in sound design/tunes. Plus neat transitions. That became the norm. All this is powered by SID and VIC-II. If, on the other hand, one looks at ZX or Atari 8bit demos, they are mostly essentially different. For one, of course they look and sound very differently having very different audio and video hardware. But the deciding factor for me saying they are “essentially different” comes from the observation that they mostly rely on code, not on audio-visual-motion design. This is not to say that there is no excellent code on C64 or no excellent audio-visual-motion design on ZX or Atari 8bit. This is just a general observation.
The situation reminds me of the late 80s/early 90s situation in Amiga/Atari ST scenes. Amiga demos pretty quickly deviated from reliance on code pr0n to reliance on audio-visual-motion design. While Atari ST demos almost never deviated to this point, they always stayed firmly relied on code pr0n.
I think this was caused by the hardware. It seems like Commodore was consistently producing home multimedia machines, while the rest were producing generic (general use) home computers.
What does this long rant have to do with the topic you ask? Well, I can feel this misunderstanding is at the core of the whole argument. The goalposts for C64 demos have moved, just like it was with the Amiga back then. Some people feel that the goalposts should never have moved. They feel this is unfair. So they have their own intimate goalposts which are now increasingly getting out of sync with general C64 public.
And demos in essence ARE audio-visual artifacts. Audio-visual stimuli are the language of the output. Code, while being absolutely essential, is the input. Only Cypher from that movie (you know which one) can really “see” code. But that’s only a movie. So I think it’s natural that demos get evaluated mainly on merit of their output..
Please excuse me for writing this boring ass “essay” that could sound like ChatGPT-produced garbage, comrades. The C64 scene does not need a “culture war”. Nor a “hardscience” vs “softscience” dispute.

its not like design appeared on the c64 scene recently, it was with us since around late 80s I think. Design importance taking over code is with us since 10+ years imho. (but just a rough guess by me). I dont mind. But I do mind for these voices of "it doesnt matter how it was done". Do these guys realise that a coder's job is tenfold or more of the artists ? If it doesnt matter then wire gfx and copy music too. Doesnt matter how they were done aswell.

2023-04-01 19:47

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

Quote: Kind funny how the arguments are so similar to what was said when discussing how using libraries and crossassemblers for making c64 demos is lame - with Graham, 30 years ago :)

libraries are still lame. :)

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