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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Release id #218343 : E2IRA
The highest level of admiration is imitation ;)
Joker guys made our day at Xenium with this one!
https://youtu.be/kl8dH7ooRyU |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting Oswaldits not like coderporn can only be the same effects always a bit faster. Yeah, Softwired was called code porn by some and fugly by others. I'm still positive it was rather fresh.
Quoting OswaldI am against this idea that it really doesnt matter how it was done, then just do animations for youtube, what does it matter if it wasnt done for c64 ? :P Something must matter. You should let go of the idea that animations are all you can do for C-64 demos on a ridiculously powerful build machine. =) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: Quoting Oswaldits not like coderporn can only be the same effects always a bit faster. Yeah, Softwired was called code porn by some and fugly by others. I'm still positive it was rather fresh.
Quoting OswaldI am against this idea that it really doesnt matter how it was done, then just do animations for youtube, what does it matter if it wasnt done for c64 ? :P Something must matter. You should let go of the idea that animations are all you can do for C-64 demos on a ridiculously powerful build machine. =)
I dont have that idea Gunnar, but if it doesnt matter how it was done, what would you go for ? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting OswaldI dont have that idea Gunnar, but if it doesnt matter how it was done, what would you go for ? As for realtime vs animation on the business end, it does matter.
Animations use to come with all sorts of compression artefacts and turn-disk prompt after half a minute, and realtime uses to come with some lower-framerate penalty.
What to go for depends a lot on what is shown. Some things just aren't possible (yet) in realtime, others will always look bad as an animation. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Another penalty for animation is that it usually loops after a short while, because 64K quickly runs out. And since it has taken a lot of time to load, it would be a waste to only show it once. So we have to watch it loop again and again. Animation is just lame*, and the same with colorcycling.
*) With a few exceptions. E2IRA had some nice ones. Still too much looping. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11356 |
That said, when ppl have to look at your code to find out if its an animation (so they can point out in comments how lame this is), then all power to you. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1646 |
The debate in this thread bears some resemblance to the philosophical debate between consequence ethics and value ethics. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 659 |
Quote: But I do mind for these voices of "it doesnt matter how it was done". Do these guys realise that a coder's job is tenfold or more of the artists ?
1) again, you are misunderstanding what I wrote originally. I specifically said that doing real-time, without it being visibly evident that it is real-time, is stupid. So, think: more frames than animations.. or interactive controls.. etc etc. Making an animation real-time, and having only 16 or 32 frames showing, is DUMB. If it’s real-time, make that obvious. That was my point… a coder who makes a real-time effect yet doesn’t know how to make it look real-time… well… it’s like driving 350 miles to buy milk when the exact same milk was available 10 metres from your house.
2) are we going down the road of “coders do 10x more than artists”? It’s not always true. Have you seen Offence’s demos? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
1. " If it’s real-time, make that obvious." ok I can live with that, I think the same.
2. Yes we are going down on that road. I havent said its always true. Most things are not true 100% of the time, still humans need time for other things than always mentioning and remembering all the rare cases. That makes us and conversations sane. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 944 |
The idea that coders need to do alot more work seems true, I suppose. Even though a 6 screen bitmap takes alot of time to create, art is more about taste than code. Code is absolute, there's hardly any appreciative middle ground between brilliant code and lame code, especially when it comes to demo competitions. Tough luck for coders, should have chosen another hobby.
That said, there are so many wonderful story-telling demos where the underlying code is very solid and isn't noticed at all. Coders being wingmen is a rare phenonoma, anyway. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
(noninteractive) demos are all basically an exercise in audiovisual compression anyway. Realtime effects just let us do more content in higher quality in less memory. It will always be a balance as to how much is precomputed (perhaps even on another machine) vs how much is generated at runtime.
Hell, even unrolled code is sometimes better created with a dedicated code generator running on c64, and sometimes easier just to generate on a 'big computer' and throw through a general purpose cruncher.
We do what we can to get something out there that looks/sounds amazing - and sometimes our judgement of what is 'good' is informed by knowing the limitations of the platform ("how the fuck did they do *that*!?"), and sometimes it's just a gut feel from the impact of the design, or the nostalgia buttons it hits.
All else is just implementation details, which is as much determined by skillset of production crew and the available time to prepare as it is by what our treasured playground is capable of doing.
I thought E2IRA was well designed, but with obvious compression artefacts. 2nd place seemed quite apt, given what it was up against. |
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