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2024-07-22 14:21

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4691

Release id #244284 : Parallaxative

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
"...and with a cartridge attached (like AR6 or Retro Replay)"

Do tell us all why do you think this was written. Is it to say that (A) your prod should not jam if a cartridge is attached or (B) a cartridge should be necessary in order for your prod to work? I'm out.

User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 22 July 2024
Let me add this from the X rules:

"Each entry must run on a stock C64 with any 1541 compatible drive and with a cartridge attached (like AR6 or Retro Replay)"

And yes, all comments not referring to the merits of this production (in running state!) should be moved over to the discussion forum thread.

User Comment
Submitted by spider-j [PM] on 22 July 2024
1.) I'm a strong advocate to use the "Discuss this release" forum for discussions.

2.) CSDb is about preserving releases "as is". If something is allowed to compete at a party is up to the organizers and if it was, then it belongs here. In it's orginal form.

The compo page states as C64 hardware:
* 1541 Ultimate II
* SidFX with 6581R3 and 8580R5

So there was *no* rule that the entry has to run on an unexpanded C64.

That Burglar was so nice to provide a packed executable has nothing to do with "fixing".

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
@Krill: You win. You're always right.
@others: (whisper) No it doesn't work.

User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 22 July 2024
4gentE: Trying to twist it to your liking, eh? It clearly does not need an emulator to run, nor any external hardware. Pretty clear case in my book.

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
-Yes or no?
-Yes, but, just, err, technically...
-So no.

Aha. All clear. Thanks.

User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 22 July 2024
4gentE: No emulator required, and it does work with stock C-64 and vanilla 1541. Just that you need to run a bit of third-party software before loading this production in its original unpacked state and running it. That's a technical fact entirely unrelated to anybody's opinion, author or not. =)

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
@jeguri:
Thanks for reacting man.

@krill:
Too bad the author refuted you.

User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 22 July 2024
4gentE: Yes it does.

User Comment
Submitted by jeguri [PM] on 22 July 2024
The story behind the oversized prg is now there in the production notes.

User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin [PM] on 22 July 2024
Burglar’s right here to pack the release. A boot file at more than 202 blocks is just bad IMO. We don’t do it in cracks, or demos, for that reason - citing cases where it happened in the past doesn’t change that, we could just as well compare to games frozen with Expert2/AR cartridges as justification for doing that.

Should it be a new release? I’m not sure. One for the mods. Consistency is key. If it were Laxity/Excess linking a game like this, I’m sure there would be fireworks.

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
Oh God, here we go. Does the original, unmodified file provided by the authors work on unmodified and unexpanded hardware or not? Yes or no? That's all that matters.

User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 22 July 2024
That would be wrong, because all you need is some non-KERNAL loader (software-only, not even a cartridge) to run the unpacked file on realthing.

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
Man, this Ächzzeit is stuffed with content. On the other hand, this prod here is in "C64 intro" category. LMAO. Maybe a new category is needed. Like "emulator with memory injection only".

User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 22 July 2024
Doesn't even need Exomizer, by a long shot. Tinycrunch already packs it to 18 KB, and it depacks a lot faster than Exomizer.

That said, oversized onefiled demos happened before, but i cannot remember specific names. One was from the mid-90s and by Polish sceners, i think, and another Hungarian? :)

Ah, and there is Ächzzeit ofc. =)

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
Yeah, you're right about the language, sorry. I kinda got the feeling you're dissing the users by calling them "impaired". However. This is a C64 release. Non-exomized prg does not work and can not work on C64. Exomized prg works. So if that's not a fix I don't know what is.

User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 22 July 2024
Have you woke up from the bed with the wrong foot? Chill down. You're the one using foul language here (shit, crap, don't you notice who's at fault here?)
Any one using a AR or TFR cart as default don't even notice the prg is 202+ blocks, because their loaders allow it.
Exomizing a prg is not fixing it.

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
1) Gee nice language. Users are not the "impaired" ones, if anyone is "impaired" here, it'd be the authors.
2) What authors provided simply DOES NOT WORK.
3) Nothing got fixed? You're kidding right? The broken piece of cr*p that does not and can not work on targeted hardware now works.

User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 22 July 2024
4gente: "why"? because it's needed to help impaired users that don't know how to load a >202 blocks file in an emulator. That's why.
And no, it doesn't need an entry on its own, nothing got fixed or modified.

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 22 July 2024
This piece of sh*t does not work.
@Burglar "added a packed .prg". WHY?
Then it should be a new release, released by Burglar.

User Comment
Submitted by KAL_123 [PM] on 22 July 2024
@chatGPZ, yes and i also thought first, that could be the reason, but why does it work in HOXS too then?
Addendum - Ah okay, i see, memory-injection is indeed the reason and HOXS has this too. I didn't knew, that with memory injection you can start larger files in the emulators than usual. Interesting.

User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ [PM] on 22 July 2024
It will work when using some kind of "dma load" - ie "inject to memory" in VICE.

User Comment
Submitted by KAL_123 [PM] on 22 July 2024
@Burglar, strange. Some minutes ago, i tried it again and it works in WinVICE V3.2, current Denise and HOXS and GTK3VICE V3.6. Then it must have something to do with my settings in all these emulators. Hm, that's odd.

User Comment
Submitted by Burglar [PM] on 21 July 2024
@kal, it doesn't work in any emulator, it only works if you are using a cartridge that has a loader that allows loading under i/o, Action Replay for example.

User Comment
Submitted by KAL_123 [PM] on 21 July 2024
@Burglar, indeed, 58kb. I wonder, why it works in all emulators, strangely?

User Comment
Submitted by Burglar [PM] on 21 July 2024
added a packed .prg so that this release also works on a stock c64. the original unpacked file is too big and will crash your c64 during load.

... 5 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-07-22 20:32

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1066

Quoting Krill

Doesn't even need Exomizer, by a long shot.

I used Dali V0.3.2 of course :)

@mods: thanks for doing the right thing and moving all this noise away from the release comments.
I have one question though, can you reopen comments on the release itself? I think it's pretty awesome for a first release and deserves more comments of praise :)

2024-07-22 20:32

KAL_123

Registered: Jan 2020
Posts: 24

@IAN COOG, you call me impaired, because i just wondered, why a 58kb big file, worked, when inserted directly in memory via an emulator (while not working, when loaded normally). You should watch your language a bit, i think. Just because you are a moderator, you can't do whatever you want here. By the way, that Burglar packed the file is okay, that's not what I'm concerned about (normally this would have been the task of the makers of the demo, of course).

2024-07-22 21:12

bugjam

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2550

Just for the record, iAN isn't a moderator anymore, since quite a while already. He is missed, though, at least by me. :-)
On topic: such releases came out in the past as well sometimes. Probably happened out of lack of awareness. My stance is, write it in the comments or production notes. If an easy fix like here is possible, a modified version is fine to add, just for convenience.

2024-07-22 21:16

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4691

Burglar: Comments reactivated.

2024-07-22 23:46

spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 481

Quoting 4gentE

Do tell us all why do you think this was written. Is it to say that (A) your prod should not jam if a cartridge is attached or (B) a cartridge should be necessary in order for your prod to work? I'm out.

The point I made also counts for X: it's up to the organizers to decide if they allow it into compo.

You may not like it when something needs to load under I/O and express that with your vote and a comment on CSDb. But it's not "broken", it's just not "clean".

I don't want to know how many releases from back in the days needed a cartridge to run, just because everyone had attached an AR anyway and "forgot" about it.

It's not such a big deal.

2024-07-23 09:05

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178

Spidey, I totally agree with what you say. I hope you understand the sentence you quoted was aimed at Krill and his deliberate misreading of the rules. You know, the letter and the spirit...

I wasn't talking about "letting something in or out of compo" or that "something should or should not be on CSDb".
Why would I, what am I, a gatekeeper, some kind of Gestapo? This got released in a compo and it followed the rules. Of course it should be on CSDb. This is exactly what I'm saying. I see CSDb as being a "historical record keeper database", so naturally this should by all means be in it. In its original, (I'd say) "broken", (you'd say) "not clean" form. Any "fixing" (or you'd rather say "cleaning") means twisting the historical record. Imagine if I wanted to deliberately release a broken prod as an art performance, if I wanted only people who can fix the file themselves to watch it. That's basically all I'm saying from the start. The fixed 101% could (and I think should) have been released separately.

2024-07-23 10:48

ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1402

Eh, if there were any fixes to the demo itself I can see the argument for a new entry, but adding another file just to make it easier to load the damn thing is a much greyer area, and I can see the argument for that just being an auxiliary file on the release page.

Like Spider-j said, single filers over 200 blocks were spread all the time back in the day when every scener and their dog had an AR VI. It was a pretty common way to fit three games on one side of a disk before we had better crunchers.

2024-07-23 10:58

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4691

I bounce into +200 blocks files every day when preserving disks. They almost always have a speedloader file as a start file. So yeah.

And no need for a new entry just because a crunched file was added. Demo is the exact same.

2024-07-23 11:13

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940

Quoting 4gentE

Do tell us all why do you think this was written. Is it to say that (A) your prod should not jam if a cartridge is attached or (B) a cartridge should be necessary in order for your prod to work?

Do tell us why they'd want to have a cartridge on a compo machine in the first place.

Is it (A) to load things faster or (B) to be able to run oversized executables?

Pretty sure both your A/B and mine are cases of "¿Por que no los dos?".

2024-07-23 12:36

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178

@Krill
I get your point.
I'm guessing your nominal answer, as well as most people's nominal answer would be the same as mine in both cases: (A) and (A). But since I can only guess, I get your "¿Por que no los dos?" point. I just never thought of it from that opposite angle. I wonder, does that mean if compo says "C64+U1541II+" that you can enter a REU release, since U1541II+ can be configured to emulate REU?

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