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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Loader ad banners
... seriously. WHY? =) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 560 |
Que? |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Huh? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Let me spell it out:
Bonzilloscope
The World Is Not Enough - We Need More Scrollers
Memento Mori (Hi Raistlin!) |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 210 |
As long as it's not intrusive and tastefully integrated people can promote any type of tool they think is better then others in their production how much as they want.
At least this time they don't present some tool that they stole (and changed three bytes of) as theirs.
But, eh... Afraid of the competition? ;) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting Angel of DeathAs long as it's not intrusive Well, it is pretty much by definition, at least when it comes to the demo experience. =)
And it's done by the demo authors themselves.
Quoting Angel of DeathBut, eh... Afraid of the competition? ;) No, why would i?
The currently popular loaders are pretty much on par in most regards anyways, at least when it comes to their core functionality.
Some things fall into different clusters in the design space, and then it's more a case of "better suited for the purpose" than just "better than others".
I guess it boils down to "not invented here" in many cases. =) |
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JCH
Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 193 |
So, who codes a demo ad-blocker? ;) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 560 |
In Memento Mori, Sparkle was a huge part of what made that end effect possible… we started the demo using Spindle… switching to Sparkle we got better performance AND the help of the awesome Sparta - who later agreed to join G*P after seeing how we work :-)
I can’t say that other loaders couldn’t cope with streaming that much data during an open border bitmap scroll … but I’ve not seen evidence of that yet.
Point being: Sparkle made that demo and, for that, fully deserved a special credit. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 560 |
Regardless of that, if you don’t like loaders being advertised, just downvote… that’s what others do when they don’t like something. Post a comment, say “I’m giving this a 7 instead of an 8 because I detest the loader banners” and just do it ;-)
Meanwhile, we’ll all just continue doing what we like ;-p |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting RaistlinI can’t say that other loaders couldn’t cope with streaming that much data during an open border bitmap scroll … but I’ve not seen evidence of that yet. Trust me, they're all very close to each other in raw loading performance. :)
What usually makes a difference (depending on the specific data to load) is the (choice of) compression algorithm.
Quoting RaistlinPoint being: Sparkle made that demo and, for that, fully deserved a special credit. Thank you for the insight into your reasoning. =)
Quoting RaistlinRegardless of that, if you don’t like loaders being advertised, just downvote… that’s what others do when they don’t like something. Post a comment, say “I’m giving this a 7 instead of an 8 because I detest the loader banners” and just do it ;-)
Meanwhile, we’ll all just continue doing what we like ;-p Of course, but entirely besides the point. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 560 |
Just to elaborate a little more: we actually -needed- the loader to load into shadow RAM, under the I/O registers, which Spindle and Sparkle can do but I believe others can’t …
Spindle didn’t give us the performance that we needed. Spindle 3 is probably close - but was too late and now doesn’t allow loading under IO.
Sparkle was a lifesaver… as was Sparta with additional help about how to squeeze further performance out of it (reorganising the data for better compression, how much data to load to balance everything nicely, etc).
But I’m sure I’ve said all of this before ;-)
All the loaders are great, for sure… but for this one demo part, Sparkle saved us. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting RaistlinJust to elaborate a little more: we actually -needed- the loader to load into shadow RAM, under the I/O registers, which Spindle and Sparkle can do but I believe others can’t … As if this was somehow difficult to implement. :)
This option is more than 20 years old:.define LOAD_UNDER_D000_DFFF 0 ; C-64/128: enable loading (and decompression) to the RAM at $D000..$DFFF,
; note that this does not slow down loading when not loading to RAM at $D000..$DFFF,
; as there are two separate routines to load data (one regular, the other to RAM at $D000..$DFFF).
[...]
Anyways, all i asked for was some explanation for those banners, and you provided one. Thanks again!
Still wondering about Bonzai's reasons. =) |
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Walt
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 47 |
In Bonzai prods we use Spindle because we love it and it is easy to work with and I have integrated it very nicely in our demo framework (And yes, I know the choice was not the best for Bonzilloscope).
In the manual for Spindle this is stated:
"Go ahead and use this in your demos! You can include the spindle logo (examples/
pefchain/spindlelogo) if you like, but you don’t have to. I would appreciate some
credit, e.g. “Loader by lft”."
If we can include the original logo in a nice way we do that. Otherwise we include LFT in the credits. We might do both. In TWINE we did something completely different to fit the writer part style.
This is done to show our love for the product and the respect for LFT and his hard work (and also his great support when needed). I also made sure, in person, to acknowledge this after the demo compo at Gubbdata.
I will not get into the discussion of which loader is best. Spindle works great for us and the way we do things. I don't see loader banners as annoying :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Alright, thanks for the insight. :)
Quoting WaltI will not get into the discussion of which loader is best. Wasn't the intention of this thread. =) (Actually it's the other way around, anybody claiming "loader X is best" (in general, not just their specific use-case) shall provide some very good proof. =D)
And those banners aren't really annoying, just... unnecessary? Tacky? Pretentious? But YMMV, of course. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: Alright, thanks for the insight. :)
Quoting WaltI will not get into the discussion of which loader is best. Wasn't the intention of this thread. =) (Actually it's the other way around, anybody claiming "loader X is best" (in general, not just their specific use-case) shall provide some very good proof. =D)
And those banners aren't really annoying, just... unnecessary? Tacky? Pretentious? But YMMV, of course.
I wonder if we were first with Sphaeristerium when we included the Plush logo during credits. Hmmm. :D |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
multi-platform loader ad banner linker tool incoming! :) |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
I just hope there won't be any assembler, tracker, painttool banners all in all.
Apart from that.. I guess most guys would be fucked if there weren't those rad dudes who code all those amazing loaders and packers.
I don't want to resort back to the G.I. Joe loader again, haha. :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting JackAsserI wonder if we were first with Sphaeristerium when we included the Plush logo during credits. Hmmm. :D Hah, almost forgot about that! =)
One could argue it's a rather subtle, blink-and-you'll-miss-it thing (and no text).
I seem to remember having added some code/API to suit your needs, too. :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: Quoting JackAsserI wonder if we were first with Sphaeristerium when we included the Plush logo during credits. Hmmm. :D Hah, almost forgot about that! =)
One could argue it's a rather subtle, blink-and-you'll-miss-it thing (and no text).
I seem to remember having added some code/API to suit your needs, too. :)
Hehe indeed, just being annoying (as usual) here. :* |
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VIC
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 73 |
I see it as kind of reasonable to give credit to the people and technologies that played an important part in a production. So I guess that would be a reason why. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting VICI see it as kind of reasonable to give credit to the people and technologies that played an important part in a production. Of course. Proper credit isn't the point, though. :) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 560 |
Quoting KrillProper credit isn't the point, though.
"I'd like to credit my Mum, my Dad, and the makers of the bottle of wine that they had that night ..." |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting RaistlinQuoting KrillProper credit isn't the point, though.
"I'd like to credit my Mum, my Dad, and the makers of the bottle of wine that they had that night ..." ... each with their own dedicated stylised animated logos, takes only half a minute before the actual demo starts! |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2072 |
Quote: So, who codes a demo ad-blocker? ;)
The more important question is who pixels a splash screen for Krill Loader to compete in Logo Graphics Compo 2022
*runs* |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting TheRykThe more important question is who pixels a splash screen for Krill Loader to compete in Logo Graphics Compo 2022
*runs* Time to turn that old IRC joke re: future historians unearthing ""Krill Loader" by that guy "Plush"" into a reality! =) |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: The more important question is who pixels a splash screen for Krill Loader to compete in Logo Graphics Compo 2022
*runs*
its not Krill Loader but its Sparkle but still, petscii of a loader. its shait (and a joke) so i wont release it to logo GFX compo tho ;)
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Should have animated sparkling star-thing. =) |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: Should have animated sparkling star-thing. =)
i could do that maybe ;) getting to it now
Edit: did it, this is as good as a animation i can make. ill make it better tomorrow, its shait for now
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 560 |
@Krill, you missed this demo out in your list of demos advertising loaders:-
Revolutions Delivered |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 490 |
My real problem with loader credits is not those adverts but the actual CSDb credits. Just look at Krill's profile. 300+ credits, 200+ of them are for "Loader". We need a toggle switch for that. :) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 560 |
Quote: My real problem with loader credits is not those adverts but the actual CSDb credits. Just look at Krill's profile. 300+ credits, 200+ of them are for "Loader". We need a toggle switch for that. :)
For intros, where the coder of the intro doesn't want to be credited for every single time that their intro is used but might be interested in knowing how many times it's been used, that functionality is there .. you can tag the intro onto each crack/release. But.. it's not always (or usually) not set in CSDb.. understandably, of course, as it's quite a bit of work tracking down the intro for every single release.. plus, if the intro wasn't released as a standalone then there's no way to do it anyway.
With IRQ loaders, SID trackers, etc, I'm sure that number would be interesting rather than seeing the credit every time .. and it would be great to be able to see which loader was used on each demo/release .. but it would be way too much work... if that data was ever added and "complete" on CSDb, we'd probably all be long dead anyway ;) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting Raistlin@Krill, you missed this demo out in your list of demos advertising loaders:-
Revolutions Delivered Nice try! =)
List wasn't exhaustive, and an entire admo for a loader was left out on purpose, because different thing.
Also...
Quoting RaistlinRegardless of that, if you don’t like loaders being advertised, just downvote… that’s what others do when they don’t like something. Post a comment, say “I’m giving this a 7 instead of an 8 because I detest the loader banners” and just do it ;-) ... have a look at the comment section of aforementioned admo, and you'll find i did something like that long before this thread. :)
Quoting SkateMy real problem with loader credits is not those adverts but the actual CSDb credits. Just look at Krill's profile. 300+ credits, 200+ of them are for "Loader". We need a toggle switch for that. :) That's a CSDb problem, not a crediting problem. "Just" need filters for "secondary" credits.
Quoting RaistlinWith IRQ loaders, SID trackers, etc, I'm sure that number would be interesting rather than seeing the credit every time .. and it would be great to be able to see which loader was used on each demo/release .. but it would be way too much work... if that data was ever added and "complete" on CSDb, we'd probably all be long dead anyway ;) Over on deepsid.chordian.net, they have player stats over about every SID tune ever released. =D |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quoting KrillThat's a CSDb problem, not a crediting problem. "Just" need filters for "secondary" credits.
Yeah i think instead of crediting the author of the loader there should be a credit mode like where you add the loader as the credit instead of the loader author. f.ex "Loader: Krill Loader" instead of "Loader: Krill" or "Loader: Spindle" instead of "Loader: LFT" etc etc etc. Its already like that for Cracktros, why not Loaders? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting DeMOSicIts already like that for Cracktros, why not Loaders? Maybe because you'd have to have actual loader releases to link to (as per CSDb rules), and with quite a few different versions, many of them not publically released, some one-off-single-shots, etc., this gets counterproductive quickly. |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: Quoting DeMOSicIts already like that for Cracktros, why not Loaders? Maybe because you'd have to have actual loader releases to link to (as per CSDb rules), and with quite a few different versions, many of them not publically released, some one-off-single-shots, etc., this gets counterproductive quickly.
Yeah i guess. but well i guess for the public loaders it can be credited to the loader and for the unreleased loaders or one off loaders i guess the author of the loader can be credited. It prevents flood atleast. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
Quoting DeMOSicYeah i guess. but well i guess for the public loaders it can be credited to the loader and for the unreleased loaders or one off loaders i guess the author of the loader can be credited. It prevents flood atleast.
My point was that Krill's Loader, Repository Version 184 is, as you see, one revision of 184 and counting, with only 5 public releases.
Then there were different codebases before that one, and many customs.
So linking to a specific loader release, if existing, would leave out something in the order of maybe 50% of all productions having used one or the other glorified disk driver made by me.
And anyways, there will be no improvements to CSDb any more, so... idle musings. =) |
