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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Release id #228399 : Big Droid
I wonder who decided to upload these images originally posted on my itch page... who created the RRFreelance handle I wonder? Come forth ye mysterious beast and confess ye actions or suffer in silence for I shall not make or post any more of my images so freely in future. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942 |
Must be a fan. |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 847 |
All uploaded by Matt, so ask him I guess. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 486 |
Such a bunch of great pixel art! Would have never noticed them on itch.io. \o/ |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: All uploaded by Matt, so ask him I guess.
Okay, thanks Matt for sharing... I think you might have just rescued by CSDB account.! |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Yeah itch.io would possibly have a different audience.
Upload here (if a native C64 file is available) and entertain the masses. :) |
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psych
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 141 |
That was great material for an excellent graphic collection. I would love to make a soundtrack to this fantastic art :) |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
I guess the use of A.I for C64 art does not belong here, this is one of the reasons I'm not happy about them being posted here without my permission. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3186 |
There you go, you made him run away. I hope you're happy now. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Where is the drama though?
edit: Oh someone deleted every single picture. Why? |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1920 |
Robert banned himself by mass deleting entries aka database violation. Even CSDb has basic self protection in the code :)
He may approch moderation for further discussion. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942 |
This database must've been created by the Borg, assimilate everything. |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Yep, got myself in a Jam, anyway, all the experimental images that were uploaded without my permission are now deleted, I do not deserve the kind of rating and votes they got because I sued some A.I to help make them, sorry for the noise.
Bye for now.! |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4720 |
Quote: I guess the use of A.I for C64 art does not belong here, this is one of the reasons I'm not happy about them being posted here without my permission.
Ofc it does. Just add some note that it is AI generated, and people won't whine about it. |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: Ofc it does. Just add some note that it is AI generated, and people won't whine about it.
I would have if I posted them myself... but I did not. And the voting for A.I gen stuff is pretty skewed. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4720 |
Quote: I would have if I posted them myself... but I did not. And the voting for A.I gen stuff is pretty skewed.
I would not care much. Now it's out there. You are a scener, like it or not, and you released the stuff, and it was added here. Things cannot be unreleased. So: I guess we should add a little note saying it's AI stuff.. And knowing it is: I still love the stuff - would fit perfectly fine in a demo f.ex.
We all know you are perfectly capable of doing awesome stuff without AI too. |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Anyway, my little A.I streak has ended, I get the idea and what to take from it. It feels fake and cheap after a while, like I'm sort of lying to myself. Yeah, inspiration is good and I got a good idea of what people like and don't like in a fast way. I'm a good bit younger than the general consensus here and I'd like to be on an even par with stuff so I'll be sticking to traditional methods moving forwards, we'll all feel better about it, trust me. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4720 |
Just keep on doing what you like to do. I look forward to your future stuff. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
I don't understand the problem to be honest. ppl post converted GFX all the time - and sometimes even claim they made them themselves, when they are so clearly converted that it hurts. You never did that - so what? |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Posting partially A.I generated content in amongst the legends and pros I would not have done by choice. The amount of 'good' I got from Midjourney and the likes I could not have done myself in so little time and boosting this stuff out in the scene feels 'not right' to me.
I've learned by own lesson here and how I feel about it might be different from how you guys feel about it as I've taken ownership in a way. |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
All the artwork under my name currently is all the traditionally done stuff, everything else you saw has some 50-90% ai help. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4720 |
Quote: All the artwork under my name currently is all the traditionally done stuff, everything else you saw has some 50-90% ai help.
They will be readded, and I will add a note about the AI thing, and that you experimented with that and didn't try to hide that fact either. |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Thanks, in future if anyone posts a.i generated stuff it would be good to be transparent about it, it is inevitable that it will happen, maybe I am one of the first to let the genie out of the bottle here and yeah it is impressive what can be done with the right tools and knowledge. I created Backdrop designer to make the process of making C64 bitmaps an easier process but it does belittle those with real talent making such amazing works, those are my idols and I should strive to make good artwork the right way. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4720 |
Quote: Thanks, in future if anyone posts a.i generated stuff it would be good to be transparent about it, it is inevitable that it will happen, maybe I am one of the first to let the genie out of the bottle here and yeah it is impressive what can be done with the right tools and knowledge. I created Backdrop designer to make the process of making C64 bitmaps an easier process but it does belittle those with real talent making such amazing works, those are my idols and I should strive to make good artwork the right way.
All deleted entries are now undeleted. A note has been added to every entry.
Keep on pixelling! |
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El Jefe
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 72 |
Aww, what a happy end to the story! :-)
Mild-hearted moderators forgive the "mass-deleter", Groepaz's comment (#19), entries being readded, everyone happy :-)
Jokes aside: Nice that this did not end up in an actual drama, and it also started a constructive discussion about how to handle/deal with releases that are based on AI sources.
Shocker/Onslaught |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 323 |
this sets a terrible precedent and will only encourage others to release more generated trash from dubious origins. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
For those who care, there is a thread about it and how it will affect compos somewhere on pouet :) |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: For those who care, there is a thread about it and how it will affect compos somewhere on pouet :)
I'd love to read that.
Now, what is the take on making C64 artwork say from a photoshop image, converted then cleaned up in a C64 editor is that also a bit of a 'fake artist' thing, with all the tools and tech here these days, can we really assume all artwork is done in a legit, place each pixel manually, way? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
A lot of people work like this.
IMHO the only bad thing is, when the motive (as in source picture) isn't made by you and then you claim its your own.
here is the thread: https://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=12344&page=1 |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Liek what about photobashing, converting and cleaning up, is this what you mean by 'source picture'? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Not sure what "photobashing" means =) What i mean is downloading random images made by someone else (or create them using AI for that matter), then convert them into C64 format, and claim it's your "art". |
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El Jefe
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 72 |
Quote: this sets a terrible precedent and will only encourage others to release more generated trash from dubious origins.
Terrible precedents have been there all the time. However, this is the first time I've seen the "artist" resist being credited for it ... this is what I like about the discussion.
Shocker/Onslaught |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: Not sure what "photobashing" means =) What i mean is downloading random images made by someone else (or create them using AI for that matter), then convert them into C64 format, and claim it's your "art".
I meant matte painting, where you put an image together from photos, fix them up a bit to make some sense. Then I suppose one would convert it, stylise and clean it up etc. Like how different is this from using reference or 3D models? |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: Terrible precedents have been there all the time. However, this is the first time I've seen the "artist" resist being credited for it ... this is what I like about the discussion.
Shocker/Onslaught
Indeed, for me this is a good debate to be having... I feel the conclusion is obvious. Do art the right way, be proud of what you make and don't fake the art, it won't stick. |
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El Jefe
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 72 |
Quote: I meant matte painting, where you put an image together from photos, fix them up a bit to make some sense. Then I suppose one would convert it, stylise and clean it up etc. Like how different is this from using reference or 3D models?
Agree with Groepaz, if it is your own creation that you use in other platform tools, its legit. Otherwise there is not much merit behind it, given the array of tools that is available nowadays.
Shocker/Onslaught |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: Agree with Groepaz, if it is your own creation that you use in other platform tools, its legit. Otherwise there is not much merit behind it, given the array of tools that is available nowadays.
Shocker/Onslaught
Yep, makes sense. In this case, the a.i images I have generated are a collaboration of humans skill and I've basically mediated those to become C64 bitmaps... nothing really special about it. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942 |
I'm curious why you've converted it to c64 format and do some cleaning up? Why an 8-bit graphics format? I can imagine you'd maybe want to photobash something, and then work on it in lets say in Procreate to get to a final image.
Nothing wrong with doing experiments in any way, though. With the risk of raising eyebrows here and there. |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: I'm curious why you've converted it to c64 format and do some cleaning up? Why an 8-bit graphics format? I can imagine you'd maybe want to photobash something, and then work on it in lets say in Procreate to get to a final image.
Nothing wrong with doing experiments in any way, though. With the risk of raising eyebrows here and there.
I just referring to different workflows to create C64 bitmaps as the intended final image. Everyone has different approaches, maybe sketching in their sketch book then scanning, fixing it up a bit, converting to C64 MC bitmap then doing the final work.
I've seen some artists make full 3D models, render them, convert to MC bitmap and finish them.
If my intention is a full 24bit colour image with no restrictions then yeah, I'd make it that way and do, I have some actual work like that.
I grew up with the C64, making bitmaps with a joystick and was pretty popular when showing friends this stuff, buying my demoscene disks on a weekly basis to get inspired. I do this for the nostalgia, to see how far things can get pushed with new approaches these days.
I honestly don't mind eyebrows, it's the long tangly ones that I don't really like though, they need trimmed a bit. |
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Morpheus
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152 |
First of all, thanks Robert for being open and honest about the creation of these images. There was never a question of you trying to hide anything, so kudos to you!
Here are my thoughts:
To have AI images and images found on the web as the base of your image (or indeed the whole image) does not belong in the same top ranking/category as those who do everything from scratch. And if an image is converted in one of the many art programs that's out there, then what's the point? An idiot can do that. It must be very frustrating for someone that spends 60-100 hours on an image to for instance be beaten in a graphics compo by someone that's been taking shortcuts. So yeah, for compos I think the art should be 100% original and I do hope parties and compos online request work stages for entries in the future.
But what if you want to do a portrait of a celebrity? Can’t you use a reference image? Some artists are better at composing an image compared to pixelling it from scratch. Are those guys not supposed to do C64 art? Of course they should, as long as sources are being provided.
I would love to hear what other active graphic artists think about all this. I'm sure there are many opinions and I'm sure we can keep the discussion civil. |
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Morpheus
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152 |
Hedning, if Robert doesn't want the images here, why re-add them against his will? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942 |
In my opinion it's up to the artist to decide how/what to share about the art/process. Else an artist is subject to karma police regulations, which are totally different for every individual viewer or listener.
If it comes to portrait, it's quite obvious that an artist uses reference material in some way, be it life model or photos. Not every artist is a savant with photographic memory. |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
I remember back in the day using a mirror to make my own face as an animated sprite on the C64, actually I used the action replay cart to edit one of the faces from a demoscene demo.. I forget the name of it.. Grafixmania or something. The results were hilarious and impressive, my sister thought I programmed the whole demo haha! |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: Hedning, if Robert doesn't want the images here, why re-add them against his will?
It's okay now. I'm exposed and rolling with the punches I guess! =D |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Quote: First of all, thanks Robert for being open and honest about the creation of these images. There was never a question of you trying to hide anything, so kudos to you!
Here are my thoughts:
To have AI images and images found on the web as the base of your image (or indeed the whole image) does not belong in the same top ranking/category as those who do everything from scratch. And if an image is converted in one of the many art programs that's out there, then what's the point? An idiot can do that. It must be very frustrating for someone that spends 60-100 hours on an image to for instance be beaten in a graphics compo by someone that's been taking shortcuts. So yeah, for compos I think the art should be 100% original and I do hope parties and compos online request work stages for entries in the future.
But what if you want to do a portrait of a celebrity? Can’t you use a reference image? Some artists are better at composing an image compared to pixelling it from scratch. Are those guys not supposed to do C64 art? Of course they should, as long as sources are being provided.
I would love to hear what other active graphic artists think about all this. I'm sure there are many opinions and I'm sure we can keep the discussion civil.
On this note, should it be done by Joystick, Keyboard, Mouse or Tablet? Or is the input device the only thing that doesn't really matter here? In 1986 I never even heard of a mouse so... only used the Joystick or keyboard to make bitmaps. Saracen Paint was my tool of choice for some years. |
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Morpheus
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152 |
I say use modern art tools and whatever peripheral you prefer to pixel your image with. :) |
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RobertRamsay(PiXelburner)
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2020
Posts: 22 |
Conclusion:
Main grounds (Traditional methods):
Pixel by pixel (using any input device) in any software that a creates C64 bitmap images (restricted or non-restricted).
Middle-ground (Modern Methods):
Conversions from your own base work, then refined for C64 use.
(for example a base sketch or scan, or your own 3D model work as a starting point).
Other means (No Method):
A.I generation, direct conversions, other shortcuts like ripping and editing existing stuff. |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
C'est moi, guilty as charged.
Someone posted a link of your artwork on the Lemon64 forums.
I converted them to .prg and uploaded them here.
Voila, nothing more to it really. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4720 |
Quote: Hedning, if Robert doesn't want the images here, why re-add them against his will?
Because they were released, and stuff can't be unreleased (they are out there now, and downloaded more than 80 times before RR "deleted" them - they would be added later on anyways by that reason), and this is a database trying to be as complete it can be? C'mon.
If anything Matt should be the releaser, as he actually made the pics into executables and uploaded them here, not RR. :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:If anything Matt should be the releaser, as he actually made the pics into executables
If that is the case, then indeed Matt is not only the releaser - but also the producer of the entire c64 release. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218 |
... and thus, Matt is also the creator of the universe aka God!
scnr
thanks, Matt, anyway, without him most of us would have missed quite a bunch of very good pixel art |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 206 |
I totally understand Robert and his feelings about this all. The feeling of helplessness. On the other hand - what happened to you Robert is exactly what happens to someone out there each time you (or anyone else) use some abomination like Midjourney - you rip something somwhere, without the authors consent. You get the picture… On a side note - I came here not long ago in the first place because I detest code bloat, I detest consumerism, I detest capitalist centralized ‘free’ services and ‘social networks’, I detest NFTs and other things that burn our planet for no good reason. So, the idea of using big AI farms using megawatts of juice, using AI trained on images stolen from all of humanity without their consent for purpose of creation of pictures to be loaded on 40 year old home computer feels downright disturbing to me. Now we await ChatGPT written fx and demos. Yay. :( |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:Now we await ChatGPT written fx and demos. Yay. :(
Really doubtful we'll see this in our lifetime :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 206 |
@Matt - You do realize that chances are You heavily crippled the future of c64 gfx scene? I just hope you have a burning hate for the scene and scene graphicians, especially future ones, Robert included, so that’s why you did it, and that this is not just a case of ‘move fast and break stuff’. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942 |
Quote: @Matt - You do realize that chances are You heavily crippled the future of c64 gfx scene? I just hope you have a burning hate for the scene and scene graphicians, especially future ones, Robert included, so that’s why you did it, and that this is not just a case of ‘move fast and break stuff’.
Eh? How's that? We'll get over it, no worries. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 206 |
@Hein - I’m (luckily) no pixel artist myself and never will be really. But I can imagine a newbie coming and getting jumped on with (wrong!) accusations of being AI user. If I were that future artist I’d be outta here right that instant. Or imagine it the other way around : Roberts pic got straight 10s before the method of creation was known. In that context I see a lot of newbies (newbies that don’t share Robert’s integrity) winning a lot of compos against veterans. Or maybe I’m just being overly dramatic because I despise the current phase of AI image/text prompt jockeying… |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218 |
4gentE: Objectively half of your arguments don't make much sense to me. For once, Matt never claimed to have done any of the gfx but gave credit and just ported them to be looked at on the system they were made for.
What bothers me more is your choice of words which makes my drama senses tingle. Hardly any C64 release you don't approve of (nor any sh.. happening on the Internet) will mean apocalypse, doom, armageddon
How about breathing... |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 206 |
@TheRyk : OK. I believe you. All peachy then. Breathing now. Please disregard all I said on the subject and attribute it to old luddite guy’s crazy fear of Skynet. Just a temporary fit of irrational rage against the machine… |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218 |
no hard feelings, just sayin' |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Those who are following things a bit longer remember the exact same arguments and fears when converters became more common mid 90s :) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 657 |
I remember the arguments against non-native pixel software.:. Which was ridiculous, really, when pre-native software, all we had was a piece of graph paper and a calculator.
“Luxury!” I say… “when I was a lad, we had to make pixel graphics on a slab of stone, using our fingernails, blood and vomit to scratch and colour. Then, when we’d finished, after a 28 hour day, our Mum would come home and beat us with a rusty spoon. But we were the lucky ones, really.” |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
I even remember these arguments against using cross assemblers (eg graham was in this camp...) :=) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218 |
OT
Code: True coders morse the binary of the opcode
Music: not even the so-so-performing Sid2sng 1.2 lead to apocalypse
BTT
Graphics:
It's been some years now, starting roughly 1 or 2 years before Pandemic, that some people used AI in gfx department, mostly for fun/experimental reasons <- and "experimental" was also the term I'd use for the results. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Too many humans error. |
