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2006-03-22 14:18

Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639

Release id #30240 : Reel Fishing Preview

Discussion is better left to the forums, I guess, so here goes.

Apparently some clarifications are in order. I have nothing against PTV at all, and I'm not involved in the cracking scene. I do enjoy a bit of game development myself.

However, I can't understand what problems PTV have with seeing cracks of their games on CSDb, especially since PTV are "not commercial" (according to MacGyver, at least). And even if they were, no sane person could believe that today's C64 games are sold less because of cracking.

Having your game cracked is an advantage really, since it increases the chance that people will play it, find that they like it, and place an order. But apparently this is not how PTV see it, and disagreeing with them entails having their coders throw fits and leave, which supposedly is going to "kill the scene". Bah.

2006-03-22 14:28

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

Quote: Discussion is better left to the forums, I guess, so here goes.

Apparently some clarifications are in order. I have nothing against PTV at all, and I'm not involved in the cracking scene. I do enjoy a bit of game development myself.

However, I can't understand what problems PTV have with seeing cracks of their games on CSDb, especially since PTV are "not commercial" (according to MacGyver, at least). And even if they were, no sane person could believe that today's C64 games are sold less because of cracking.

Having your game cracked is an advantage really, since it increases the chance that people will play it, find that they like it, and place an order. But apparently this is not how PTV see it, and disagreeing with them entails having their coders throw fits and leave, which supposedly is going to "kill the scene". Bah.

Heheh.. ok simple answer. What makes them upset? That if they ask for something it's not respected and they are even bashed for that. It doesn't really matter what is better for them, what is tradition etc. etc. blah blah blah. Simply: if I askyou to stop picking in the nose when you are near to me, please do it! Or I'll quite our nice long lasting relationship with you. ;-)) They are around CSDB and around C64.sk quite often so it's obvious that you have to reconcile with their presence. It's internet, distances shortened.

Please everybody, who is explaining in endless iterations of iterations how the scene works, what are the principles, etc. Please accept the fact that NOW it's about people and their relationship. We have to live with each other, most of us know each other. Please accept it and communicate, even when it's somone who haven't got a clue at all. ;-)

2006-03-22 14:45

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114

(i'll post it here aswell, didnt notice someone started a thread)

That whole discussion is irritating. I fail to see the point and how its a matter of respect when "crackers" spread a game by a "game company". And then someone who i have seen once or twice on a micro small "scene party" (and never heard of before, or after) tells me to fuck off. OK. Thats what i call respect. Go for it! Just one thing: if you and/or your (former) group wants to be part of the "scene" by acting like this, it wont happen. That said, i havent done anything on the c-64 for long, i and our group left the "cracking" stuff on c-64 long ago for several reasons which are really out of the scope here (and dont contribute anything to the point). I have big respect for everyone coding stuff on the c-64 in 2006 (even for those who produce crap!). i like games and demos and cracks and music and koala and all that, and i still fail to see the point, because its how the "scene" works. If the one or the other discourages you from doing stuff and release it, the scene is not for you. EOT.

2006-03-22 15:08

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

Quote: (i'll post it here aswell, didnt notice someone started a thread)

That whole discussion is irritating. I fail to see the point and how its a matter of respect when "crackers" spread a game by a "game company". And then someone who i have seen once or twice on a micro small "scene party" (and never heard of before, or after) tells me to fuck off. OK. Thats what i call respect. Go for it! Just one thing: if you and/or your (former) group wants to be part of the "scene" by acting like this, it wont happen. That said, i havent done anything on the c-64 for long, i and our group left the "cracking" stuff on c-64 long ago for several reasons which are really out of the scope here (and dont contribute anything to the point). I have big respect for everyone coding stuff on the c-64 in 2006 (even for those who produce crap!). i like games and demos and cracks and music and koala and all that, and i still fail to see the point, because its how the "scene" works. If the one or the other discourages you from doing stuff and release it, the scene is not for you. EOT.

This is exaxtly the type of reactions which I call "calling this situation normal". But it's not. ;-) Maybe I got your point wrong, but no I'm not in PTV, wasn't and won't be. Other thing is that some of my friends (and even relatives (which doesn't really matter to me but it does to e.g. Holloman)) are/were and some of them are/were even sceners. But if you knew me, I never care about all this serious business around C64. C64 can't be saved and our enthusiasm is not unlimited. The thing is to accept it. You or me (and yes that's really shame to be inactive) are perfectly reconciled with how the things work (for our own sanity's sake) but some people will never get it and they will always try. But although I know that I won't find much people accepting my point of view, I always try to persuade everyone I can to accept the fact that scene is about people and communication, and that's the reason why I'm defending PTV, not because there is some people I know, but because I think if someone I know personally or meet on internet quite often asks me not to do something which hurts him, I should listen to his requests.

P.S.: I'm really sorry for taking so much effort in discussions like this, but this kind of topics about communication and realtionships is always important to me.

2006-03-22 15:40

ready.

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441

I have not been in the scene for very long and I havent either lived the scene but through internet. So I might be cluless of how it works. Im sorry and apologize to those who have a clue about it. Regarding Reel Fishing, as Courage said, the main problem was not cracking TANKS 3000, but it was just a matter of not being polite, just simple rules of behaviour that most (or maybe not so many) people usually have when relating to each other. Somebody are like rain coats and dont care about insults and fuckings and just keep going their way, and probably its the best way to be, since they dont get hurt neither do they hurt others.

Some others take it seriously. And here comes the problem, since some people on the scene think its not their problem if somebody gets upset. Well, as experience proves, it is their problem. If I remember well not so long ago somebody started deleting entries from CSDb. Why? He was one of those without raincoat and WE ALL suffered the consequences. So I guess that sometimes some people should shut their insults up since they dont bring any good.

Answer this: what good has throwing insults at each other has done to the scene?

best regards,
Ready.

2006-03-22 18:07

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

its fascinating, creamd who usually only crawls out from under his rock for the .SID compo, and doesnt have time to keep the latest downloads on c64.sk up to date for some two years somehow found time to spam the comments and forums in defense for yet another PTV-muppet.
most people have something special they feel strongly about, be it optimizing code, ending world hunger or saving some endangered rhino.
i find it fascinating and somehow heart warming that there is someone out there whos love for the less fortunate in protovision is so infinite that he is always willing to defend them.
so this tosser who apparently couldnt take negative comments without going 'fuck you', or see a download link of his game without quitting his hobby wants to be respected.
i however want this scene database to be respected, and as accurate and complete as possible. its a shame that it is conflicting with the interests of the non commercialists in PTV, although i sort of understand their dislike for exposure after trying out some of their games in cracked form

2006-03-22 18:34

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

Quote: its fascinating, creamd who usually only crawls out from under his rock for the .SID compo, and doesnt have time to keep the latest downloads on c64.sk up to date for some two years somehow found time to spam the comments and forums in defense for yet another PTV-muppet.
most people have something special they feel strongly about, be it optimizing code, ending world hunger or saving some endangered rhino.
i find it fascinating and somehow heart warming that there is someone out there whos love for the less fortunate in protovision is so infinite that he is always willing to defend them.
so this tosser who apparently couldnt take negative comments without going 'fuck you', or see a download link of his game without quitting his hobby wants to be respected.
i however want this scene database to be respected, and as accurate and complete as possible. its a shame that it is conflicting with the interests of the non commercialists in PTV, although i sort of understand their dislike for exposure after trying out some of their games in cracked form

Hollowman, yummy reaction. I really look forward to properly answer you when I return home from my 2nd work. In about half an hour.

2006-03-22 18:53

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114

As for the respect thing - i had a half finished team patrol (plus some preview of metal dust which i think was accidently left on the d64) long before it was "out" *SENT TO ME BY A PTV MEMBER*. did i release it? NO. why? because the one who sent it to me asked me not to do it. i have quite a bunch of so called "internal" tools from various ppl aswell. did i release them? NO. because if someone from the scene gives me something and tells me NO SPREAD i would *NEVER* do so, thats what is respect for sceners in my book.I would not be in the position i (and my group) is if i wouldnt respect such wishes. Noone would give me anything if he couldnt blindly trust me in that regard, and i wouldnt give anyone any "exclusive" stuff either if i wouldnt know that i can trust him.

BUT, none of those "cracks" that have been causing all the rumble were "exclusive" like that. These were games that have been released to the general public, and as such they are subject to be "cracked" and spread, like it or not. If i would still be into that kind of stuff, i wouldnt know why i shouldnt do so - and that has nothing to do with respect at all.

Bah, sometimes i think those PTV guys really live in their own twisted universe with their own freaky definition of everything. Maybe they should have looked at our website once and they could notice how i do NOT have downloads for their 4 player games there, although they would fit in there well. I wonder myself why i am doing this now, if the result of that is a childish "FUCK YA!". Maybe i should stop doing things on c-64 the way i like because some selfproclaimed saviour of the scene declares cross-assembling lame and evil. and hell yeah, i might have watched some goddamned movie - who gives a damn? i probably have still coded more on that party than most other visitors together, do i call those that went there to play games and praise PTV lame? why the hell would i do that?

pfff. and yes, i agree with creamd that today the scene is mostly about communication and people, although that doesnt mean i have to call everyone in the scene "friend". also beeing friend with someone has little to do with respecting what he does, or even liking it. i became friend with some coders whose demos i dont like at all, and i respect people who i wouldnt call friends. that said, many times it wasnt "the crackers", it was PTV (or well, certain members) who started the rambling and pointless, clueless personal insults. maybe if they demand respect from others, they should start respecting them too - even if they dont agree with their views, because that is what respect is all about.

oh well, the most sad part about the whole thing is, as soon as certain PTV members join the discussion, the arguments go downhill. (and i'm not refering to courage here, i dont even recall communicating with him in any way - he does though it seems).

hrm, i should stop. i can only hope that both sides learn something from all this craptalk, but judging from the past i have serious doubts about it.

2006-03-22 19:20

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

Groepaz, well put. I'm afraid I understand what you are talking about ;-). And btw. I liked your reactions even when some of my groupates always tried to find provocation in your post. So repsect! ;-))

2006-03-22 20:01

Tch
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512

It might be a smart thing for CSDb V2 to have a striking link above the comments when a forum-thread has been started.

2006-03-22 20:19

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

I see that *MOST* of your post is an excercise in sarcasm and irony, but at least it gives me chance to switch to one of my most favourite subjects which I hardly have chance to talk about.. myself ;)))

so...
snip
SidCompo
snip snip snip
Forever
snip snip snip
a lot of serious excuses about personal life and stuff
snip snip snip
enough manhours and mandays
snip snip snip
demo
snip snip snip snip snip snip

I always say. The best constellation for being an active scener is being unemployed, retired, single, rich, student, teacher or combined. I have 'NO' beesides every of those choices.; ;-))

Spamming forums in defense of... yes: I would even defend you if you, but you don't need that. I feel strongly about support of creative C64 scene and Protovision *is* creative group after all.

snip

snip

"i sort of understand their dislike for exposure after trying out some of their games in cracked form"

Says who? A gamer? Beauty is in the eye of beholder and your random opinion is perfect example of this phrase.

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