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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2081 |
What's an import?
As one of your favourite mods Count Zero keeps cracking his head about the CSDb crack sub category "Import", let's help him, so he finally can focus on more productive issues.
Here's some rotten forum freds frome around a decade ago on how it emerged:
- Adding the cracker group to import/trainer version (Rough raising the question how to distinguish group-b-introlinked cracks originally made by group-a from group-a's release)
- Suggestion: New release type "C64 Import" (bepp calling for a new release type)
- PAL to PAL imports (Didi's view, especially doubting Imports without Video Standard fixes make sense)
So do we need the "Import" flag at all?
Should we limit it to the days when BBSes and snailmail were the only way of getting cracks across borders and oceans?
Is a crack made in one Western German city intro-linked in another Western German city an import?
Do we need another category/flag ("Lame Intro Linked Version without any advantages over original crack") instead?
Do more categories/flags really make things clearer or rather create more confusion?
Now go, fight. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
*poopcorn* |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 114 |
IMHO imports are lame if they are just based on modem-trading or mail-trading (without any fixes applied). Imagine every swapper would have put his intro infront of every release that he sent to his contacts. Oh dear! To me imports are much closer to a recrack than a proper release. As with many things some people regard as an achievement, when it comes to imports most times there is close to no talent involved or required. ... just my 2 cents of a rant ;)
@TheRyk: I vote for "Lame Intro Linked Version without any advantages over original crack" :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4610 |
Quote: IMHO imports are lame if they are just based on modem-trading or mail-trading (without any fixes applied). Imagine every swapper would have put his intro infront of every release that he sent to his contacts. Oh dear! To me imports are much closer to a recrack than a proper release. As with many things some people regard as an achievement, when it comes to imports most times there is close to no talent involved or required. ... just my 2 cents of a rant ;)
@TheRyk: I vote for "Lame Intro Linked Version without any advantages over original crack" :)
There is not any reason for morally judge releases in the database. People can vote. An import is an import, lame or not, just like a demo or gfx. |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 114 |
Quote: There is not any reason for morally judge releases in the database. People can vote. An import is an import, lame or not, just like a demo or gfx.
@hedning: I didn't want to judge morally. ;) ... It's just my opinion on imports (could be based on my moral standards, though) or so called "importers".
Ryk asked "What is an import?". In many cases it's taking credit for something without nearly any effort put into it.
People/Sceners at CSDB rightfully make fun of others using converters and then claiming credit for graphics etc. ... getting a release from a foreign country by calling a bbs, smashing an intro infront of it and calling it an import is of the same spirit.
btw: many tags or attributes in CSDB imply a kind of moral standpoint. Why are unauthorized rebuilt groups labeled [fake rebuild]? (I know it's another topic!) These groups were not always "fake" but "unauthorized". |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 287 |
My vote would be to add a new release type, and make sure it's plumbed through the system with groups being able to be "Importing Group" and a scener being able to have the role of "Importer". This would more accurately reflect history - at least in the US, there were no shortage of groups who only imported, didn't crack anything themselves. There were even groups that "imported" from the wider NTSC world to isolated areas.
I was never particularly impressed with it, generally it involved downloading something and slapping an intro on it with a tool - NSR even did this for a while just to make a point of how little effort it took - but it is part of the old scene. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4610 |
An import can be everything from a release "imported" from Hamburg to Berlin and then to Copenhagen, and then to Norway with four intros, to a ntsc-fixed US import with added trainers etc, as long there is no attempt to hide the original release; then it's a recrack. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
Imports, Importers, Importance - everywhere already, Six:
https://csdb.dk/search/advancedresult.php?form%5Bcategory%5D=sc..
https://csdb.dk/search/advancedresult.php?form%5Bcategory%5D=gr.. |
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zzarko
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 67 |
"Yo mama is so imported that she is introlinked three times..." |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2081 |
@Higgie: What you describe as swapper-linking-nightmare actually happened. I recall stuff being modem-traded from US (ESI), let's say to Netherlands (Hotline) and from there to Weatern Germany, ending up in gamers being confronted with three intros before the gaming could begin. And I could name examples in which neither trainers nor video standard fixes were added by importers or import-importers. Still, that's morally(!) a lot better/less lame than last staion of trade stripping the crackers(!)' intro and either implicitly/rather vaguely or totally wrongly and boldly claiming to have cracked it - which also happened.
Back to categories. Maybe "Pseudo Import" would help to express that moral statement/distinguish overseas/PAL<->NTSC trade from lame intro-linking. But who would do the job of going through all the thousands of entries to flag them... As Hedning said, downvoting could also be a moral statement - IF anybody really cares enough to lame-vote tons of releases always keeping in mind that it has been so normal back in the 80s (though some over1338 sceners might have frowned about it even back then).
Hedning's definition "... as long there is no attempt to hide the original release; then it's a recrack." is imho better as Didi's old approach of sticking to video standard fixes, for this we've got flags already (Crack flags, credit flags). |
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Black Beard
Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 11 |
Just to shed some light on the import scene of the 80's.
It was not the easiest thing to import in those early days.
Calling Europe and paying for that kind of long distance was not an option. In those days, calling within your same city could be long distance and expensive.
The life of an importer in the 80's:
1. Hack your own codes (several providers)
2. Pray to the gods for a good connection (try alternate code providers), 1200 wasn't always an option (bad lines, contacts with 300 baud)
3. The right software supplier, which you would need to work on and build by hacking Alliance conferencing systems.
4. Language barriers
5. Tons of download errors & retries. Hours to days for a successful usable download.
6. Modem auto answer was mostly not an option, give me a carrier... ok here it comes.
7. Hoping your group had a good NTSC fixer
I am sure I missed some stuff, but it was a long time ago. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
Quote:Maybe "Pseudo Import" would help to express that moral statement/distinguish overseas/PAL<->NTSC trade from lame intro-linking.
Can we also have "Pseudo Crack" please |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4610 |
Quote: Quote:Maybe "Pseudo Import" would help to express that moral statement/distinguish overseas/PAL<->NTSC trade from lame intro-linking.
Can we also have "Pseudo Crack" please
As well as "pseudo demo"? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting hedningAs well as "pseudo demo"? "Pseudo crack" would make some sense (depending on actual protection being there or not in the first place), but "pseudo demo"... not really. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
Doesnt make less sense than "fake demo" though (and why do we have "fake demo" but not "fake crack"?) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting GroepazDoesnt make less sense than "fake demo" though (and why do we have "fake demo" but not "fake crack"?) Ah yes, "fake demo". Should be removed and merged with demo. :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2081 |
What Krill and Grumpaz say.
A demo is a demo. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
What is a "fake game" though? =D |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2081 |
even got doubts about "fake groups" but let's stick to "Import" for the time being
-> BTT please |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
ok, so before i go back to poopcorn mode, and since you seem to think there will actually come something useful out of this thread (good luck), here are my 5ct:
what defines an "import":
"import" generally means group A made a legit release which group B obtained by downloading or other means of swapping and then brought it to their country, city, district, whatever (that depends on where you come from and what era you refer too), and slapped an intro in front of it to express that fact. As a rule of thumb, if the group B intro does not state "imported by" then it is not an import.
what does not invalidate an "import":
- group B removed the intro of group A. this often happened because both intros didnt fit. however when group B intro does not state "imported by", its a recrack, not an import.
what does not define an "import":
- group B slapped an intro in front of groups A release, group A intro intact or not (there is more to it)
- group B made a trainer, or ntsc fix, or highscoresaver, or god knows what.
in all of these cases however, the release should be "released by" group B and not group A and B, because group A was not involved whatsoever. for the same reason any credits related to group A release should not be repeated in the group B release. Except for the rare cases when group A was actually in coop with group B - again this would usually be stated in the intro or related notes. If in doubt, this is not the case. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
Well spoken and generalized but
Quote:
what defines an "import":
"import" generally means group A made a legit release which group B obtained by downloading or other means of swapping and then brought it to their country, city, district, whatever (that depends on where you come from and what era you refer too), and slapped an intro in front of it to express that fact.
and
Quote:
what does not define an "import":
- group B slapped an intro in front of groups A release, group A intro intact or not (there is more to it)
sound the same to me? :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
make it "or other means of swapping over a longer distance" then :) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
So "Import" includes distance? Some minimum? And is the true origin important then as well?
We e.g. uploaded to the US-BBSes from Europe so things which got imported (aaaaand fixed) _in Canada_ got closer to the destined fixer/importer/downloader. Makes it importing from where? :)
Sooo much nitpicking, quality/exception/definition/understanding POVs - brave Ryk anyhow told me that he will come up with a handy definition when this discussion is over. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2081 |
Not sure about groepaz' focus on geography, although we find cases in which villages B and C were hardly 50 miles away from each other.
Quote:
in all of these cases however, the release should be "released by" group B and not group A and B, because group A was not involved whatsoever. for the same reason any credits related to group A release should not be repeated in the group B release. Except for the rare cases when group A was actually in coop with group B - again this would usually be stated in the intro or related notes. If in doubt, this is not the case.
Interesting point, especially as we currently deal with these releases totally the other way round by mentioning all groups involved, though we do not repeat credits.
Let me strike once more, having read Black Beard's memories, this ain't about fame or lame or ethics. It's about functionality of database. What helps me browsing my "Search Results"? There might be users searching for exactly THAT release of Maniac Mansion with exactly THESE 3 intros. Not mentioning group A at all won't help - in contrast to the current modus operandi, i.e. naming all groups involved. The flag "IMPORT", however, shows clear enough imho, group A had nothing to do with the actual _release_ (besides their release being linked). |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
Quoting Groepazthe release should be "released by" group B and not group A and B, because group A was not involved whatsoever. for the same reason any credits related to group A release should not be repeated in the group B release.
Yet people whose SIDs were used in any random production/demo do get credit, because their work is present there, even though there were not involved. Which makes TheRyk's argument even more valid:
Quoting TheRykWhat helps me browsing my "Search Results"? There might be users searching for exactly THAT release of Maniac Mansion with exactly THESE 3 intros. Not mentioning group A at all won't help
It'd be best to either apply the same labeling standards to all productions or to none. |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 114 |
@F7sus4: good point! The same goes for charsets, sprites and other items either ripped from games or other demos. Maybe it's possible to distinguish credits between somebody's been part of the "team" or not in the credits section. (going off topic again - sorry!) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
Quote:Yet people whose SIDs were used in any random production/demo do get credit, because their work is present there, even though there were not involved.
yes, that is equally retarded. it makes the db completely useless for eg finding out which productions rob hubbard actually contributed to. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
Quote:Let me strike once more, having read Black Beard's memories, this ain't about fame or lame or ethics. It's about functionality of database. What helps me browsing my "Search Results"? There might be users searching for exactly THAT release of Maniac Mansion with exactly THESE 3 intros.
This is the core problem some people have with making the db - random functionality is tacked on things that are ment for something else. "tags" in releasenames, extra info in comments, crazy release- and credit types that shouldnt exist. And all of this because noone gives a damn anymore and the proper fixes (new db fields) are never implemented. As someone already said, there should be different tables for "contributed to this" and "made something that is used" credits, for example. We know this since at least a decade too. So back to poopcorn mode because we are now at the point that tells us "nothing changes, we are stuck with shitty workarounds" yolo. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4610 |
Quote: Quote:Let me strike once more, having read Black Beard's memories, this ain't about fame or lame or ethics. It's about functionality of database. What helps me browsing my "Search Results"? There might be users searching for exactly THAT release of Maniac Mansion with exactly THESE 3 intros.
This is the core problem some people have with making the db - random functionality is tacked on things that are ment for something else. "tags" in releasenames, extra info in comments, crazy release- and credit types that shouldnt exist. And all of this because noone gives a damn anymore and the proper fixes (new db fields) are never implemented. As someone already said, there should be different tables for "contributed to this" and "made something that is used" credits, for example. We know this since at least a decade too. So back to poopcorn mode because we are now at the point that tells us "nothing changes, we are stuck with shitty workarounds" yolo.
So your conclusion is that we are dealing with a pseudo database? Or perhaps even a.. fake database? :O ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
more like Pseudomaintainance and Quantity over Quality mindset. |
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Comos
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 71 |
From an experience in my country, when most of the stuff was imported from the west side and the local groups slam their intro in front of the old one, is this considered a valid "Import" ? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5025 |
just my 2 cents. before the internet imports made sense, not everyone had contacts to get the latest warez, the importing group got new games into the flow. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Yeah, and an import from one village to the neighbouring village is technically enough to warrant another intro and the "import" tag, imho. =)
Whether or not it's a worthy import and the importer had to fend off bears with bare hands and morse the thing via smoke signals etc., another thing. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 229 |
Hello oldfarts,
it might be forgiveable that alzheimers sets in after over 30 years have passed, but an import is simply an imported crack from one regional market to another.
Like from the US to the EU. Or JP to US or EU.
Forgot about regions? Last we had was regions for BluRays i guess. Yes, back in the days we had socalled regional markets and versions that were only released/suitable for those markets. Like the US NTSC version of an all english game really didn't make too much sense to be released in germany, because the germs just were'nt used to read english stuff. They needed Zack Mc Cracken in german to have an impact.
Case solved, nothing to see here.
Rather overhaul csdb in places where it matters like cross referencing and original release dates than nitpicking over things like "imports". |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4610 |
Quote: Hello oldfarts,
it might be forgiveable that alzheimers sets in after over 30 years have passed, but an import is simply an imported crack from one regional market to another.
Like from the US to the EU. Or JP to US or EU.
Forgot about regions? Last we had was regions for BluRays i guess. Yes, back in the days we had socalled regional markets and versions that were only released/suitable for those markets. Like the US NTSC version of an all english game really didn't make too much sense to be released in germany, because the germs just were'nt used to read english stuff. They needed Zack Mc Cracken in german to have an impact.
Case solved, nothing to see here.
Rather overhaul csdb in places where it matters like cross referencing and original release dates than nitpicking over things like "imports".
For reasonable mature grown-ups (if people like that ever were part of the scene ;) ), you are correct, but then you have to take into account a huge stockpile of local 13-year old wannabes and upcoming sceners that did what they could on a micro scale. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5025 |
Quote: Yeah, and an import from one village to the neighbouring village is technically enough to warrant another intro and the "import" tag, imho. =)
Whether or not it's a worthy import and the importer had to fend off bears with bare hands and morse the thing via smoke signals etc., another thing.
as ws mentions imports mostly meant bringing in games that were not released in your country. fex. I had a street rod version with an american crack and belonging intro that had rasters off coz it was ntsc timed, and a european import group intro. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
Quote:Rather overhaul csdb in places where it matters like cross referencing and original release dates than nitpicking over things like "imports".
Nothing like this will ever happen, because the one person who could do it lost interest. So we try to simulate progress by discussing the same things again and again. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2081 |
Quote:From an experience in my country, when most of the stuff was imported from the west side and the local groups slam their intro in front of the old one, is this considered a valid "Import" ?
Majority of ppl having posted their view would say: Yes. However, the trade between US and Europe mattered way more than let's say what's been traded from Bochum to Duisburg or from Köln-Kalk to Köln-Müngersdorf. No doubt about it.
Quoting wsHello oldfarts, ... Like the US NTSC version of an all english game really didn't make too much sense to be released in germany, because the germs just were'nt used to read english stuff. They needed Zack Mc Cracken in german to have an impact. ... Imho only true from a commercial marketing view. At least me and the kids I hung around with even were ready to learn English suddenly when ESI's crack (imported by whatever group with intros from Hotline (Netherland) and West End Boys (Kiel) linked in front of it arrived on our school yard - ages before the German version was available at all.
@Groepaz: No reason to beat around the bush, it's (hopefully) well-known meanwhile that there's only one admin - and the 8 active mods can agree on whatever but not implement it, only Perff can do it. But he is gonna read this and might(!) sooner or later recall it - or not when/if he considers re-doing structural aspects. Wouldn't call that "simulating progress" but rather showing good will/open-mindedness although we can't make promises ^^ |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11139 |
A lot you have to learn young padawan :) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501 |
Just to be a dick here ;) this whole thing is waaaay less important than implementing tool subcategories/flags.
But hey, isn't pointless discussions about things that are not important a lot of fun that also makes you feel like you're doing something... ;) |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
This thread is full of inspirational quotes. ;) |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
My view: "Imports"/"importing" should only be considered the trade (connection) between the US and Europe and vice-versa. The rest simply does not matter and is largely composed of "lamer stuff", which should be tagged/recognised in a different manner to "importing".
Note: From a historical perspective: Fucked Beyond Repair (FBR) (and maybe The Survivors) were some of the more famous EARLY importing groups. In the North American scene, the concept of "importing" AND "cracking" (by the same group) wasn't that popular until the late 80s. Cracking was considered far more "elite" than importing (with the latter considered a step-down/no skill required). This changed, particularly with the focus of "NTSC fixing" and the recognition of "fixing" in early mags such as Influx or Chaos Chronicle. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
had a few of the BYG things put out in italy as "imports"
sorry , it's not bringing anything to the table.. ntsc fixing etc. different matter..
technically , yes it's in a foreign land.. but I don't see it any different from me slapping my intro in front of a derby ram / tri dos etc / bod intro.
semantics.. it's imported.. but nothing extra has been done. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2081 |
Just stumbled over
Overlander +3
and thought, better post it here as a proof, even totally silly re-imports having only 2 importing groups intros (one PAL one NTSC, none of them fixed) left but original intro stripped - not exist not only in Count Zero's nightmares, but they _ARE_ out there. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
Only getting Wet Dreams (NTSC fixed! - unimported!) from Import by Vision - Generic Import-Demo for anything on the disc! SO COOL! :)
Labeled with "C64 Misc." - oh my :( |
