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Forums > CSDb Discussions > C64 on LCD with svideo
2018-12-20 11:08
Golara

Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 123
C64 on LCD with svideo

Did anyone try using LCD monitor or TV with svideo input ? I'm not talking about using external converters to VGA or HDMI. Do they really handle 50Hz analog signal or they do some VGA conversion inside, how is the quality ?

Example of such monitor


I've got a really good Sony TV with Svideo, but it's a bit too big for my liking (26") It's so hard to find 21" or thereabout TV with Svideo :( Also, are there any CRT monitors with additional Svideo besides the standard VGA ? I think that would be perfect.
 
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2018-12-20 14:29
Mr. SID

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 354
Why use a frame buffer, if you could use a line buffer and only have one line of lag?
2018-12-20 14:39
Golara

Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 123
Quote: Why use a frame buffer, if you could use a line buffer and only have one line of lag?

hehe even better.
2018-12-20 16:05
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1480
S-video to analog 15khz rgb can be done without digital sampling right..
2018-12-20 16:32
Golara

Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 123
Quote: S-video to analog 15khz rgb can be done without digital sampling right..

I'm just throwing wild hypotheses based on my understanding of the Svideo and rgb signal and no real electronics experience. I just though it would be easier for me to program such a converter in some assembler than wire it up with individual components. But since you mentioned it and I thought about it for a bit, it seems obvious now.

SVideo and rgb has the same sync signal, right ? The difference is that RGB has a separate sync line while on Svideo the sync is mixed with the luma. That means you need to extract the sync from Luma, then based on the luma and chroma values generate proper voltage on rgb lines (I don't know the "formula" for that yet, need more reading)

The whole point of such converter would be the ability to connect the C64 to any TV with RGB (which is most of them, SCART has RGB). Seems so simple, yet I couldn't find a device that does that. Only the other way around. That's why I think there's some catch to this. If there's none, then why doesn't that exist already damnit 1 :D
2018-12-20 16:38
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 950
If you want RGB from the C64, go on eBay and get a JVC KM-V7EG or Sony S-RGB YR-1000/3000 transcoder. They're scanline based and don't introduce any lag or artifacts.

To answer the original question, the quality of LCD monitors with S-video varies WILDLY. Some show a decent 50 Hz image with no noticable artifacts, while some have tons of deinterlacing artifacts or motion judder. It's a crapshoot, and in general the newer a monitor is, the less likely it is to work well, in my experience.

The simplest solution today is to get a RetroTink 2x and use a modern monitor with HDMI. And yes, HDMI officially supports 50 Hz. It's given me a nice image on every TV, projector, or monitor I've tried it on, and that's a dozen or so.

Oh and don't forget to enable "gaming mode" on your TV, otherwise latency is going to be unbearable.
2018-12-21 07:39
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1480
Quote: I'm just throwing wild hypotheses based on my understanding of the Svideo and rgb signal and no real electronics experience. I just though it would be easier for me to program such a converter in some assembler than wire it up with individual components. But since you mentioned it and I thought about it for a bit, it seems obvious now.

SVideo and rgb has the same sync signal, right ? The difference is that RGB has a separate sync line while on Svideo the sync is mixed with the luma. That means you need to extract the sync from Luma, then based on the luma and chroma values generate proper voltage on rgb lines (I don't know the "formula" for that yet, need more reading)

The whole point of such converter would be the ability to connect the C64 to any TV with RGB (which is most of them, SCART has RGB). Seems so simple, yet I couldn't find a device that does that. Only the other way around. That's why I think there's some catch to this. If there's none, then why doesn't that exist already damnit 1 :D


Regarding scart:

Scart is just a connector. It has pins for composite, s-video, rgb and audio. It is by no means any guarantee a TV with scart supports all signals in the connector.
2018-12-21 10:33
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 950
Converting to RGB SCART to connect to a modern LCD doesn't make sense. You're still at the mercy of the display controller and just as likely to get artifacts as if you use S-Video. If there's even a SCART connector at all.

Just convert to HDMI with a known good device such as the RetroTink. Since it outputs a digital 576p signal there's very little chance of the LCD messing it up.
2018-12-21 11:25
Golara

Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 123
Quote: Converting to RGB SCART to connect to a modern LCD doesn't make sense. You're still at the mercy of the display controller and just as likely to get artifacts as if you use S-Video. If there's even a SCART connector at all.

Just convert to HDMI with a known good device such as the RetroTink. Since it outputs a digital 576p signal there's very little chance of the LCD messing it up.


Well I shouldn't mix up two topics in one thread. When I was talking about converting s video to rgb I wanted to connect it to crt.
2018-12-21 13:41
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 950
CRTs that accept RGB but not S-video are pretty rare, but if that's what you need you'll be happy with a JVC or Sony transcoder.
2018-12-21 18:26
Golara

Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 123
Quote: CRTs that accept RGB but not S-video are pretty rare, but if that's what you need you'll be happy with a JVC or Sony transcoder.

Are you saying most CRTs with Scart support Svideo on the Scart pins ? I've read is optional and interpreted that as rarely used, since why bother when the spec doesn't require it and you can save some money. If you're talking about CRT TVs having Svideo in 4din being common... Maybe it is where you are from, but here I almost never see them. Sure, more modern 32" + CRTs have them, but I want a small box, I've got a 26" TV with Svideo din, I got it even though it's bit too big because I didn't want to risk not finding another one and I didnt find another since. That's why I started exploring other options. Ideally I would like a small CRT (16-21") with Svideo din socket.
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