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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
What is the definition of PETSCII?
As we were reviewing past entries for Transmission64 3rd Edition (2022) and our rules (and other party's rules) in general, there were some questions that came up with regards to the the definition of PETSCII graphics.
For example, do you think that it's okay to turn multicolour mode on (but not bitmap mode)? Is it okay to use a custom font? What about ECM mode?
I'm curious to hear what others think... (famous last words on CSDb forums). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:Is it okay to use a custom font?
only if turning on multicolor is ok too =P
IMHO petscii is what can be delivered in a SEQ file. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
AFAIK nobody entered a PETSCII compo with ECM or multicolor mode images yet. Would be good to try and leave it to the organisers to interpret their own rules. |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 421 |
ECM would be tricky since not many non-alphanumeric chars will be left, unless it's a custom selection of 64 PETSCII chars, but then why not to call it ECM compo and allow any charset (like this compo ECM Compo 2021)
NB This guy's "art" uses PETSCII with Plus/4 like palette https://twitter.com/akinao/media – quite interesting. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2072 |
"If you can print it, it's PETSCII" (some wise dude some 10 years ago when we lead this discussion here and elsewhere)
In the Plain PETSCII compos series, $d020 and $d021 were allowed to poke with one fixed value each. Setting $d018 to lower or upper case was also allowed (though there ain't many situations in which the font at ROM $D800 is preferrable).
However, I've always split stuff from main compo if it contained hokeypokey with other VIC registers than $d020 and $d021 resulting for instance in
- MC mode
- ECM mode
- rastersplits
- sprites
- animations
- etc.
Last time I aldo explicitly ruled out empty screens (yawn) and animated competitors to a meaningful part of the screen to shoo off 8x8 tiles compo slackers. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Some say true PETSCII should even be limited to lowercase and black background, ie what you can actually use on a BBS. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Quote: AFAIK nobody entered a PETSCII compo with ECM or multicolor mode images yet. Would be good to try and leave it to the organisers to interpret their own rules.
Winter Abstraction |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Winter Abstraction
Cool, hadn't seen it yet. Good that it's accepted as a valid entry, I think Ptoing has a good point there. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Except the point is invalid :=) PETSCII defines the encoding, not the charset/glyphs. Just like ASCII does. The older CBM machines for example all use PETSCII too - but they have a different charset. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Except the point is invalid :=) PETSCII defines the encoding, not the charset/glyphs. Just like ASCII does. The older CBM machines for example all use PETSCII too - but they have a different charset.
Heh, that means that all PETSCII compos so far should've been judged on other CBM machines as well. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
If you dont go too wild with colors, that even works... see eg "frog" from the demo disk - try it on a PET! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: If you dont go too wild with colors, that even works... see eg "frog" from the demo disk - try it on a PET!
Sure, will do. :) |
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Dr. TerrorZ
Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 11 |
In the technical sense a background or border change doesn't belong into PETSCII, and the BBS black background doesn't either. Dir art might be even more pure in this sense.
The thing is that I and many other people likely didn't know a technical definition of PETSCII when we worked with the graphics. Over the years it became to mean the character set we saw on screen rather than for example the underlying encoding.
To me PETSCII has something to do with the BASIC screen, where you could change the border and background, and then toy around with character graphics with keyboard. It didn't occur to me that these POKEs do not belong to that situation.
So to me PETSCII is a name for the condition of "working on the C64 screen in that one way like we did" and not a technically precise outline. I assume BBS graphics were a different condition for those who worked with.
Finally coming to the original questions,
The can of worms is there are also other "innocent" POKEs, not just the border and background. I'm quite ok with the idea that mcol PETSCII is still PETSCII. But it might not translate well to other computers with PETSCII set, it sort of breaks uniformity.
I also see ECM problematic both for this reason and because the 1-colour characters with global background is so strong part of PETSCII-as-text-art. (ECM allows 2 colours per character)
Although there are slightly differing Commodore PETSCII character sets, having a custom PETSCII set sounds somewhat against the PETSCII tradition. I'm also not sure what would be gained with it, as to be PETSCII it would still need to conform to the encoding. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
With a custom charset it just becomes a regular Logo compo, no?
Not that we shouldnt have another ultrafont logo compo. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
Quoting GroepazSome say true PETSCII should even be limited to lowercase and black background, ie what you can actually use on a BBS.
There's actually been a bit of discussion at Boar's Head Tavern recently about whether it is preferable to end a PETSCII post by changing back to lowercase after a short delay, or to just leave the screen in uppercase - the validity of changing to upper at the start was just taken as read. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
I'm not seeing a strong argument for considering ECM to be any less valid than changing d021. As others have noted, it quite heavily restricts your tile palette anyway. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Thank you all for your feedback. |
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Holy Moses
Registered: Feb 2013
Posts: 24 |
PETSCII's Birth Place is the BBS.
Anything possible mode/feature in a scenerelated BBS (e.g. C*Base) or Terminal (e.g. CCGMS) should be allowed.
- $d020/$d021 = allowed
- $d016/$d018 = not allowed
- upper/lower case = allowed
- $d022/$d023 = not allowed
My 2c. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Hu, how do you change background color in a seq file? Is that some c*base specific thing? |
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Holy Moses
Registered: Feb 2013
Posts: 24 |
Quote: Hu, how do you change background color in a seq file? Is that some c*base specific thing?
This is a feature of CCGMS. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
HU??? Again: how?
The only CCGMS thing i remember is that it flashes the screen on BEL (chr$(8) iirc) |
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Holy Moses
Registered: Feb 2013
Posts: 24 |
Quote: HU??? Again: how?
The only CCGMS thing i remember is that it flashes the screen on BEL (chr$(8) iirc)
Hey, it's still $02... since more than 3o years ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
So how do you change the background/border color then? First time i hear about it - and i have never seen it on any BBS back then. |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 201 |
While his claim that PETSCII's birthplace is the BBS is obvious nonsense (Frog anyone?), I still agree with Holy Moses' summary of what should and shouldn't be allowed in a PETSCII competition.
And of course Groepaz is right... as soon as you allow a custom charset, it turns into a charset graphics (i.e. logo) competition. While it wouldn't be bad to have one, it should be separate from a PETSCII competition.
Likewise, ECM is a whole different ballgame. I don't think it would be fair to throw any of those categories into the same competition.
If anything, you could consider allowing PETSCII pieces taller than 25 lines, but then you might want to set strict rules for scroll speed or even have your own viewer with which to show the pieces.
It always struck me as a little weird that PETSCII competitions are limited to one screen, when - often even in the same competition - ANSI and ASCII pieces are allowed to have 1000 or more lines. |
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Holy Moses
Registered: Feb 2013
Posts: 24 |
Quote: So how do you change the background/border color then? First time i hear about it - and i have never seen it on any BBS back then.
Jeeeeezzzz... $02 followed by the color you want. Seems next time you'll spend a beer... ;-) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
Quoting Groepaz
Quote:IMHO petscii is what can be delivered in a SEQ file.
I'm with this opinion. A "properly native" PETSCII should come as SEQ file and can be viewed with about any SEQ viewer and JiffyDOS or alike extensions. Black border and background to get "the right" effect at max :)
More is a demo! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:$02 followed by the color you want. Seems next time you'll spend a beer... ;-)
You can drink all my Holger at X =)
So i made a file for testing that contains $02 $01 $02 $02 $02 $03 $02 $04 etc, but all it does is flash the screen in white, no other colors *shrug* Do they have to be in some specific format? |
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jab
Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 10 |
This is good discussion and I hope it will some day lead to a common understanding of what tricks are accepted in a PETSCII compo when the rules don't explain everything in detail. I wouldn't accept ECM, and not sure about MC and border raster trickery either. In a compo context, to me the word PETSCII means "the art form" instead of "the encoding standard". I second TerrorZ' vague definition of "what can be done in BASIC screen with only knowledge of border and bg color POKEs" instead of BBS limitations.
Of course each compo can set their own rules and also accept entries that wouldn't even qualify in CSDb as a "C64 graphics (PETSCII)" release. In mixed platform compos that put single-screen PETSCII pics alongside 1000 line high ANSI and ASCII, it would be only fair to accept multiscreen PETSCII pics. Btw: Syntax allows them, as tested with Kamaji's Boiler Room. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Quote: Quoting Groepaz
Quote:IMHO petscii is what can be delivered in a SEQ file.
I'm with this opinion. A "properly native" PETSCII should come as SEQ file and can be viewed with about any SEQ viewer and JiffyDOS or alike extensions. Black border and background to get "the right" effect at max :)
More is a demo!
So SEQ files can be bigger than one screen, right. That means we'd need to allow scrolling? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Quote:So SEQ files can be bigger than one screen, right. That means we'd need to allow scrolling?
in that case yes, due to the fact that seq files may include things like carriage return (and cursor down?). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:That means we'd need to allow scrolling?
IMHO display them via $ffd2 printing and at the equivalent of 2400 baud. That also opens the door for "overdraw animations", which were (are?) somewhat popular on BBSs. |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 201 |
While Groepaz' suggestion probably gets it closest to what was experienced in the 80s, it'd be a pain to watch as a graphics competition.
If you want to allow scrolling (and I'm not saying that that's necessarily the way to go in my opinion - I just brought it up because mixed competitions usually give ANSI pieces an unfair advantage in that aspect), a soft scrolling SEQ viewer is the best way to go...
That does open a different can of worms though, because afaik not all drawing tools write proper SEQ files and you might have to deal with submissions in "wrong" formats. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2072 |
Quoting TheRyk"If you can print it, it's PETSCII" (some wise dude some 10 years ago when we lead this discussion here and elsewhere)
Actually that dude WAS Groepaz :D
And if we somehow get BTT, his (groepaz') main doubt was at some point whether setting $d020 and $d021 are allowed. Some 10 years ago I also thought BBSes ARE BLACK and thus thought, that's why we've got categories BBS Graphics and PETSCII and forgot about it.
@Animations: Sure you could credit the one who smashed his head 1,000 times per screen on the keyboard for PETSCII graphics or _call_ it a PETSCII demo. And sure, it's up to any compo orga to set their own set of rules. But in a mere gfx compo, whatever >1 frame animation would make it a demo in my book (exceptions thinkable such as 2 frame gfx compos, but that's very special, I thought TS was asking for a "normal" compo) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quoting jabIn a compo context, to me the word PETSCII means "the art form"
I think this is the key point. We're talking about rules for a stand-alone graphics competition in 2022. Entries are required to be submitted as an executable PRG, so I don't really see why it matters what's possible on a BBS.
With this in mind, part of me thinks we could go wild and come up with allsorts of crazy ideas, but I also think the spec Holy Moses suggested is pretty solid. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:it'd be a pain to watch as a graphics competition.
I remember it was that way also for the Ascii/Ansi stuff at some point... I find the scrolling up/down/zoom in/out way its done now on some parties much more annoying. Especially the zoom out view is kind of lame and distorts the impression completely (and gives another unfair advantage to certain types of gfx).
That said, SEQ Viewer can scroll forth and back at least, no softscrolling though (which is fine imho, its petscii afterall) Also petconv (20190906) can produce runable files from .seq files (and other formats) - let me know if there is some feature missing (adding support for that weirdo $02+color stuff is already on my list :)) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2845 |
I'm all for smooth scrolling!
As for restrictions, i think setting border and background colours is a-okay, but for some irrational reason i'd draw the line at hires charmode.
No ECM. multicolour, or even bitmap mode (and of course no raster tricks).
And either original ROM font, but not both in the same piece. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
I don't see us allowing scrolling at Transmission64 quite yet this time. I've updated our rules a little today. Thanks! |
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Pararaum
Registered: Sep 2018
Posts: 11 |
So the rules would still allow for MC PETSCII, right? I am asking for a friend... ;-)
I think some flexibility and variation will make the competition more interesting. Or we need more (well defined) categories... |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Quote: So the rules would still allow for MC PETSCII, right? I am asking for a friend... ;-)
I think some flexibility and variation will make the competition more interesting. Or we need more (well defined) categories...
Please tell your friend ;-) , with the latest update this wouldn't be allowed this time around.
Quoting Current T64 rules
Animations, interlace, sprites, multiscreen, colour changes, ECM, multicolour settings, bitmap, scrolling and effects are not allowed.
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