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Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 722 |
SEUCK Redux
I've been reading the SEUCK vault pages (http://www.seuck.retrogaming64.com/index.html) and in particular the pages relating to modding SEUCK to improve games. Does anyone think it would be useful if I were to make an open source SEUCK data file player? This way people could take the source code and modify it to add whatever features they liked without having to modify the binary SEUCK code. Also, the data file formats would be fully documented and there is also a good chance that a few SEUCK bugs (like the slow down and sprite flicker) would be fixed in the process. :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
If you feel it's useful for yourself, go for it. But don't be deceived that you'd benefit a huge group of people :)
You probably need to contain also the editor so that the new features can be edited. And you likely have to stay very close to binary-compatible with the original, because as far as I've understood the SEUCK savefiles are just memory dumps (do they contain code also btw.?)
And lastly, though there may be unused bits & so, the data format likely doesn't leave room for huge improvements, unless each variation of the engine totally does away with compatibility with the original SEUCK + the other variations :)
Btw. Mr.Mouse, I don't disagree with your point generally - considering all platforms, and that professional codeslaves get paid to implement someone else's vision - but I'd like to hear from you examples of *C64* games (preferably the PAL-style, more technical variety, since this is a scene forum) that markedly benefitted from the touch of a game designer who was not the coder. What I'd think, on C64 the designer needs to be quite intimate with the platform limitations so as to not design something which is totally impossible to implement & therefore benefits no-one...
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
please no more crap seuck games!!! please!!!.... |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Cadaver, you're right concerning the c64 era of games, as in those days it was still possible to create a game from scratch in your own attic, sell it to some publisher and make some money, and indeed many coders were responsible for their own kick ass game.
However, this vision is somewhat blurred. Many games were conversions from the arcades from producers such as Taito, Sega and the like that did indeed have game designers on board to work out new ideas for games. Coders on the C64 were 'merely' redoing the act, so to speak.
Then there's the film tie-ins, where teams at US Gold or Ocean just sat down, created some levels based on a film and started coding.
Sensible Software, consequently also those responsible for SEUCK, were a team where Jon Hare designed (not coded) a lot of the games too. Same more or less goes for the Rowland Brothers (and the Bitmap Brothers).
So I would not say that all kick ass games in C64 history were designed by people who knew how to code on the machine. And some kick ass games on the c64 were mere 'codeslaved' ports of other platforms. :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i'd have to disagree with most of what you said Mr. Mouse, for a start describing the people doing arcade conversions as just "code slaves" doesn't do them justice at all because they didn't simply sit down with the source code and original design notes to bang out a quick and dirty port; in most cases they built everything from the ground upwards based on a coin-op sat in the corner of the office or in some cases merely a video recording of it being played so the final game is usually their own interpretation (in some cases deviating wildly from the original) rather than a slavish 1:1 port.
Chris Butler's re-imagining of Power Drift for example bears bugger all resemblance to what the Sega designers came up with and they certainly had no input into that version, but it's still a cracking game. And to be honest i'd not have pointed at the US Gold or Ocean film tie-ins as examples of good games personally, the "design by committee" aspect of those titles is pretty much a negative point for most of that era.
The way you're describing the Rowlands brothers or Sensible greatly devalues the work that the coders in each team put into the game and forgets that in both cases the the programmers were by no stretch of the imagination "code slaves" and were just as involved with the design as the other members of the team if not more so. (And don't get me started on the Bitmap Brothers because i can do half an hour on how crap i think their games are.) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Oh, as regards the whole SEUCK Redux idea... as Cadaver says, do it if you want it yourself but not otherwise... certainly SEUCK games generate more hate than any other game creation tool but that's what happens when you make a reasonable game engine available; everyone and their cat has a go so the signal to noise ratio is horrendous. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
T.M.R., I'm not devaluating the quality of the code that recreated coin-up games, that was not the point I'd want to raise. I was talking about game design. In many cases, tremendous effort went into a conversion, to the point of recreation of seemingly impossible features on the c64. But the design of a game does not require coding skills per se.
Sensie and others are examples of teams on the c64 that had onboard people without a specific coding function, but that were still designers of good games.
SEUCK games usually suck of course, but there is no harm in modding and improving the engine? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i didn't say you were devaluing the code, more the jobs of the coders themselves by calling them "code slaves". Certainly Chris Yates wasn't Jon Hare's code slave, John Rowlands didn't just sit there and do what Steve told him, Chris Butler sometimes totally ignored what the Sega, Irem or whatever designers had done...
Right now i'm trying to think of one game i've felt was exceptional where the programmer wasn't the lead designer and struggling...
Improving the SEUCK engine is well and good yeah, but only if y'plan to use it personally; look at the lack of horizontal SEUCK games so far despite all the work Jon Wells put in. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
I agree with most of your comments, and the term "codeslaves" I merely borrowed from Cadaver's reply actually... |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
make seuck borderless, then we talk....
now what animal is in that picture above? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote:now what animal is in that picture above?
Shame on you for not recognizing a lolwombat! :(
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