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2023-12-22 18:03

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496

Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal

Dear fellow sceners,

This is an attempt to get more understanding among, and for, C64 demoscene pixel artists. It’s not written to limit anyone, but a prayer for more transparency.

Read the document here: ->Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal<-

We tried to give define and value different processes. Which is a result of discussion, where we saw mutual grounds and felt the need to write these down.
We will update the document periodically, when enough input has been gathered and sorted out.

We’d really love to hear your thoughts on the subjects in the document.
Please post them in this thread.

(Personally I will not always fully comply to these guidelines myself, but I will continue to be transparant about it. However, I do agree with the values communicated in this document.)

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2023-12-23 19:10

F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117

Quote:

You seem to have missed the wired gfx with a perfect workstage at the AI compo, or?

The point is how both of these topics are intertwined. It's possible to lead endless disputes where lies the line between utilizing certain automation tools during the act of creation, and where/when does the tool start to de facto substitute the author. I'm up for all the freedom. However, the AI brings up pretty important argument here - not regarding the conversion technique per se, but about the agency during the process. Can a person claim work as their own solely because they've ordered it as described or copied it? Whether "C64 is just a hobby" or not, it would still be inherently valuable in respect to art and to each other to be truthful about one's work and to credit it properly - pretty much like it's done when borrowing a few lines of code. ;-) Which leads to this:

Quote:

Maybe it could be condensed down to the essentials like: "credit all source material, mention use of AI" (yes, this is very minimalist).

Quote:

This is only about transparency and fairness to your fellow scener. We try to find the middle ground for the future.

2023-12-23 19:12

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954

Looking forward to what this will bring. I do fear that creating a brotherhood of pixel artists with certain ethics won't help bring this scene together.

It is however starting to become quite a supergroup of artists. I'm sure at some point coders and musicians will sign up as well.

2023-12-23 19:20

Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335

Quoting Hein

I'm sure at some point coders and musicians will sign up as well.

Should I sign a paper that I don't use unlicensed digis for singlespeed tunes? :D

2023-12-23 19:34

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954

Quoting Jammer

Quoting Hein
I'm sure at some point coders and musicians will sign up as well.

Should I sign a paper that I don't use unlicensed digis for singlespeed tunes? :D

You can use them illegally without signing, I suppose. But that's not up to me. ;)

2023-12-23 21:37

Pararaum

Registered: Sep 2018
Posts: 11

My working style might be a bit unique and I know that I am a nearly unknown (pixel) artist in the scene, C64 or other. I try to combine two of my passions: retro computing and oil painting, therefore I tend to do sketches in oil, digitise one, and start working from there. For those of you who are so very fond of "proof" look at https://demozoo.org/graphics/325217/ and ask sensenstahl, he got one of the sketches. This work style would be in violation of the proposal...

In my opinion such "guide of ethics", "code of conducts", find any fancy name for them, serve only one purpose in the end even if they are made in the best intent: to get rid of somebody unwelcome quickly and without the possibility of appeal. Somebody says something you do not like? Just look through her/his work, you will find something, some minor misconduct and can evict the person. And the best thing is that you now have a fantastic reason, the person broke his/her own commitment to the "guide", "code", etc.

Should it ever come to this that signing such a document is mandatory then I would leave the scene and do more oil paints.

If there are competitions which exclude wired graphics or AI generated content people should, of course, stick to it. AI content should be mentioned. Vote fairly. And so on. Just behave like a decent person. I do.

And what Burglar LMan, Nim, Pal, Peacemaker, et al. said...

2023-12-23 22:14

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

@Pararaum:
If you look at the second table in the document, it reads to me like you and your method fall straight under that second category that says: “original pixel art - nothing needs to be proven, and your process may be kept a secret.” So I wonder how did you come to conclusion that: “This work style would be in violation of the proposal.”? Not only is your method valid, but you also voluntarily provide description of your process which is a welcome added value.

2023-12-24 00:47

QuasaR

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145

For me the scene is all about the C64 and it's limitations. I'm a poor little coder and in most cases the only rule (for code) is, it has to run on a vanilla C64 with 1541. How do I get there coding wise (using a monitor, assembler (native, REU expanded or cross); using the latest crunchers to shrink it under 4k, etc.) doesn't count as long as somebody else enjoyes watching it, at least myself while doing it.
So I don't get, why there should be rules about painting. Is it more "art" when done the oldschool way, joystick and 1084 and hours of hours of clicking pixel by pixel? In the end, sometimes, i couldn't care less how a picture was painted. In most cases, someone claims his/her own work and it wasn't so, somebody will post the original. So, he/she is a liar. But a bad artist? Or is reffering to other art "bad art"?
I think we all stand on the shoulders of giants and art is always about connecting or deliminating from things done before.
And ofcourse what PAL, LMan and NIM said...
Just my two cents.

2023-12-24 03:15

PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292

Back in the day, on the Commodore 64 scene, where nobody gave a darn about copyrights or legal hoops, we had this rad thing going on. It's like this secret club where crackers, coders, music composers, and pixel artists just do their thing, outside the rules of the real world. Even UNESCO noticed lately, thinking pixels, sid music and real-time code deserve a spot in the history books, or maybe a time capsule.

Let's dial it back a bit. Started with cracking software and tiny intros, then boom, the demo scene happened. Ideas were born, visuals were visualized, and audio was thrown in for good measure. It's all about nabbing ideas and going wild on the screen and in the speakers, today JBL boom box ;-) . Think pixels, audio, visuals—all whipped up by some code sorcery from totally insane folks. To snag an idea is all magical, the scene is the place where you can do just that and create something, like Censor Design's Tribute to Vangelis, a genius move done out of pure love. No ego boost, just a tribute to a legend - that most of us in the scene hold love to.

Our heroes in this scene are like rockstars. They got, and stil get appreciation. Inspired by everything—mainstream, old stuff, current events, or just their wild thoughts. The demo scene isn't about being total original; it's about grabbing ideas and making them into your own unique creation. It's the real deal, and there's no other place like the real scene in the whole world. That's why UNESCO in some spots called it a world heritage thing—it's the spirit of just creating.

Forget about life's bills, responsibilities, who needs that? The demo scene is about hanging with a bunch of crazy talented best-in-life friends. Zillion hours on ideas, pixels, code and music? As long as you create something awesome running live on old hardware and hear the cheers of a few hundred nerdy people who totally get your digital and non-work-related super insane madness.

Imagine sitting at Revision, signing books you're featured in, feeling like a demoscene celeb. For a moment, you were a rockstar! You felt like one, and at that very time, you were one—a rockstar for a day. I felt this and it was so joyful. Sure, I've worked on big projects, from airports to web browsers used by 85 million users per day (Opera web browser, designed with Trond), but nothing beats that day when me and Tom Zaphod hit the spacebar at the X party in 2010. Well, almost nothing. My daughter is pretty cool too. But when I and Tom sat there pressing the space bar between parts, that we all had created, all of us in offence and I did all them gfx and was so proud, people cheering after 20 years of hibernation, that was one of the best and single most epic times of my life.

In the demo scene, you can do whatever you want, just don't get caught. Never claim you made something if you just stole it —that's the golden rule. Never enter a gfx compo with something like that. Don't pretend you did everything solo when you've tweaked it with Photoshop, assets, or images, or whatever doing a collage, in a demo that's all okay. But don't do it in a gfx compo, never ever create fake workstages where pixels never change through the time of pixeling it whole new. Sure, having your own pipeline is cool, but claiming you did every pixel alone? That's a bit like claiming you've cracked time travel—sounds cool, but we're not buying it. When I did the never-ending story part together with coder Lars, the idea was to create the longest-ever scrolling streaming image with effects on the C64, a blend of painting and images, I am an advertising dude, a pro at it, but man, my bleeding finger was proof of what went down. It's still a marvel in the scene world—a whole disk side of streaming koalas with effects - very underrated effort it is by the scene. Could've had more effects, but it is what it is—time and all.

In the wild world of Commodore 64, where pixels, SID music, and insanity code party hard, it's all about collaborative chaos. It's a place where you can be gloriously insane, break all the rules, and create free art with a bunch of talented lunatics and all kinds of really strange people. It's a demoscene utopia where the only inquisition is asking, "Did you have fun?" And the answer is a loud, pixelated "Hell yeah!"

Let us have fun !

2023-12-24 04:17

PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292

The flow, to be in flow is a great thing for the scene

2023-12-24 09:02

Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686

Should I document my entire toolset and build chain?

As a musician, I steal shamelessly, but I'm old school and that's accepted because that's progress. You build upon others work, or are inspired by it. I see no difference, you are meat based computer yourselves. I don't cite my influences on every note I play. I don't divulge my gear chain, if it's real amps and pedals or ai based profiled patches in a kemper or axefx or plugin. This whole argument doesn't make any sense to me.