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2013-02-16 10:45

PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271

demos

READ WITH CARE AND WITH OPEN MIND:

Based on Revolved and demos like that - really great demos... but...

It is truly a beauty of a demo you have created and the hours, work and cleverness behind it must be massive!!!... Can I go beyond the normal standards here? OK? Cool... I just want to ask the c64 scene something that I really think so much about... what are we? What are the scene? Where do we want to be or where do we want to go? What if we become the producers of the all loving and polished no to argue and nothing to complain about? what is the scene then... I think this demo show some super powers in making something run smooth and so seamingless and so splendid... but where is the hard-on? Where is the humor? Where is the fun and loving bits? Where is the contrasts? Where is the black and white? Where is the FUN? When should I smile with sound and when should I cry? I meen this demo is so cool and a great piece til revolved logo is on screen and then the next effect is also cool.... then a line makes a splitt and the demo is insane cool... but after that... what is it really? For me it is people trying to make something that everyone will think is really great. It is so well made this demo so I am on thin ground here and I see that because I see the demo over and over and over again and I just envy the transition power in here and the colors and the fades and all but to me it is really mostly that... the plasma over the char squares are great also.... then the portrait part with the rotating letters, beautiful.... but so without sole... then the best part of the demo comes the rotating stuff.... from here and in it is for me just smooth moves and really beutiful work... but what I really ask is: Is this it? Is that what we are aiming for? The sphere movers are ofcourse beautiful and so cool...everything is really splendid in the demo!!! That is why I try to write this post as true as possible... how many demos like this will it take to kill our scene? We are part of something that we love and we love it because we are part of something that is NOT mainstream... so why do we push the productions to be mainstream? I meen, this is a fantastic demo, it really is and congratulations for the win, I really meen that and I hope you all can read my text in a way that is not hate, not bad or not silly, because I really meen this... Are we not men with our edge anymore? If we want to do the all perfect stuff for all humans on the planet earth, are we then not on the wrong platform??... I want to say something, want you to smile, to cry and to die because it is silly or so hard to grasp... I do not want to make smooth powerpoints with a cool sid tune on top... The cool DANE tune saves this demo even more for me even the demo in itself is so great... but the greatness is not the best for me... can I say this without beeing the worst arse in the scene? In a way I know my powers in making demos and also I know that we can make the transitions and make all blend so great but that is just not fun to do so again super thanx for your time on that, how many demos more would you like to do that on? ...maybe I just am all wrong but to me it is about effects and making some insane things on this machine and not just press the gausian blur button in photoshop and make it be so that everyone likes it... what about make someone puke... make them hate your demo... make them love it... make them be filled with anger... make them cry out of emotions, just a text like my text in Another beginning with the man in the window, it is me, give from yourself, make us beleive, make the viewers be filled with moods in different orders... make a rollercoaster ride... you do not want to go to transition world, what we want is the contrasts that shake us up a bit? the different stuff? the black and white? For me it is so...

I really think our scene will die if we try to make more and more and more transition based demos, I really do think so... I really think it is getting a tad booooooring as fuck now too... AND the worst, one do fun stuff creating a routine, then one must do all that in such a great way after? It is like wasshing the car with a thoothbrush for me in a way... I just do not think it is any fun, do all you others out there love to sit and do fades and transitions more than the effects itself? Do you? because I want to know? Can we just make us be shocked more, feel love more, feel hate more, feel joy more.... Today it is so smooth and it is so nice and it is so cool but it is our death, just because we are so great at what we do so it gets boring in the long run... we have been in this scene for so long, let us try to talk about this? I know bepp and we are so great friends when it comes to demo creating and let us face it... we are the super democreators(we are the ones, we are the c64 scene and we are the strongest because I love jan, I love bob, I love mahoney... I love to mobb lars... and so on, they love me back in a way that I can feel in my life, it is totally great, we are family you see, we are the weird ones, the ones doing this, we are great!) still beating the life in something strange and do me a favour and not let me have a hard time here... I think it is the perfect demo to post this on because I, you and all know this is a insane great demo... you won and it is great... I salute you... Ask the coders, would it be cool to make the effects and not all the transitions? And will we break the hardware more than what we do... we need to do that... in my mind! I am just a fool, but you know what? I stand for me, I stand tall above normal, abnormal... and I ask... what do we do in order to make this scene really be something for us to have in the next 30 years too... we are the best in the world at what we do... Triad - you made a fantastic demo... I just want to use the time to make a disqussion about the lot...

I want to be in the old peoplehome and do c64 demos... with transitions that will not hapen! With edge and striking moodsetters that might happen!

just me, PAL

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2013-02-16 21:44

raven
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137

PAL, not releasing new stuff often has nothing to do with investing time in transitions, IMO.

To be honest, I cant understand how you manage to release so much stuff in such short periods of time.
Even if I used 100% of my (very little) spare time on the C64, I'll never reach a pace even close to this!

It sux, but we're not teenagers anymore with nothing to do except go to school & code demos.
I wish I could do that again, but such is life :)

2013-02-16 21:46

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705

Everyone has their opinion. I personally opt for the loading while displaying part then transition to the next. PAL has a point if it means that transition coding takes too much time, but if it does not then go for it. What do others think of this? And by no means am I critisising any demo that does not use this approach. Why be stuck to the press space for next part approach? Every coder has the right to do what they want. I like both aspects so dont take it as a bitching.

2013-02-16 21:48

Monte Carlos

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358

I think, there's something rumbling in the demo scene now. I mean that people think about how to make demos more artistic and experiment with that. There were other times not long ago, where the demos were less original. Also there were many cool comebacks like that of Censor Design (the last one) and today there are more groups active than in lets say 2004-2010. Maybe sometimes it's too much about smooth transitions and less focus on the real hard effects maybe sometimes its to codepron, but time will show how people find there balance.

2013-02-16 22:23

Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926

*I* think our scene is not all demos! They are highly appreciated and all - still ...

"Scene" has cracks, intros, sids, graphics in totally weird formats, tools and originality at many "edges". Many of these never seen or mentioned on a _demo_...

Open your mind and focus on more than just the demo at end.

We want to play as well - code more games and protect them - just for me. The unprotected real oldschool stuff is handled by others anyhow and this rgcd cart stuff recently seen is just boring (to even look at - not judging their quality). :)

2013-02-16 22:31

spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498

I think I'd be the happiest man alive if I ever reach the point in my life to think about such 'problems'... :-)

2013-02-17 09:16

Axis/Oxyron
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 91

If I get it right, we have two discussions in one.
First, does coding transitions take too much time and second are transition based demos boring.

Definitely doing transition based demos consumes an immense amount of coding time.
Not only for coding the transitions itself.
There are so many jobs to be done to make all this possible: optimize part memory, optimize loading-times, generate data on the fly, make streamable fileformats, move stuff in memory from A over B to C, glitchfree IRQ-switches, code parts IRQ-based for background loading, etc...
So, just doing simple transitions doesnt help around that. All these meta-tasks are still there to be done.
Our problem is, that we try to copy the style of early 90´s Amiga demos. But a lot of things that can be done in 10 minutes on Amiga can occupy a C64 coder for 3 or 4 days, due to hardware limitations.

To the point of transition based demos beeing boring.
Transitions can be a good tool to enhance the overall appearance of a demo.
As Kristian stated out, they try to hide the most ugly part of our beloved bread box. That the serial bus is so damn slow and loading a killer-demopart takes ages.
But they can also lead to total boredom, if used wrong.
We suffered from that in Toxyc Taste
You cant just ride on the 'flow' for 10 minutes without beeing boring.
You need a lot of trickery to keep the audience attention alive.
Changing the style/theme of the music in the right places, change the pace over time, add breaks, add moments of surprise, ...
Perhaps thats the reason why some people call our demos: incoherent ;o)
You cant make it right for everyone.

So, all in all I´m very happy. There have never been such a wide range of different demo styles around.
We have Flow-/transition-based demos, art-based demos, oldschool-/retro-demos, onefilers, tech-demos and many many more.

So, just do whatever demo you like. But DO IT!

2013-02-17 16:11

Stone

Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 172

What Axis said.

2013-02-17 17:42

Bob

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 71

Well interesting discussion ;)
Personally... I like techy stuff..blown away fx etc.. but thats mee :)

if too many people do one style of demo (no matter what style it is) it will tend to be booring after a while, and the focus will naturally be shifted away from that.
I don't think we need to worry about this, it is a simple law of the nature.

I am very glad that we have such a diversity of demos that has been released lately. And the compos are real Prime Time Super Bouts between the Giants, If I wasn't involved in the Demo Scene... I wouldn't be able to resist this anymore... THIS STUFF WAKES UP THE DEAD AND DAMNED, THEY WANT A PIECE OF IT TOO!

Ehh.. That is the reason why we returned }8)=)

The greatness of this scene is our DIVERSITY, and that is the KEY FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE C64 SCENE, and also the explanation why it is growing and I surely hope that people will continue to keep this fire we have on the scene ;) and as AXIS said! just DO IT. BUT DO IT!

2013-02-17 21:39

Skate

Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494

Edit: I wrote this message after reading all the posts in this thread. But when I re-checked PAL's messages, I saw that he wasn't making statements like I said. It's my bad. I just didn't want to change my message but add this comment. Please read on skipping that "statement" parts.

PAL, you know opinions are just opinions. We already knew how you like/prefer demos because you show your style very often lately and we are all happy about it. But when you start saying things like "tracmos are killing the scene", this is not an opinion anymore, this is a clear statement.

Check my comment for "Trick and Treat". I was almost sleeping (literally!) at X'2012 compos. But i still tried to be fair and wrote my comment emphasizing it was my opinion and probably my own "problem". What would you think if i've written "what? hours of scrolling images? this demo made me sleep. this kind of demos may kill our scene. we need faster demos with better transitions.". Your statement (which is just your opinion) made me feel that way. Even if I prefer tracmo style demos personally, i like Offence demos. Not because of the fun factor or surprises, because that are "good", sometimes way better than just good. And I don't care if your demos are trackmos or not. If overall feeling is positive, it's ok, if not, it's not. But if you ask me, "press space" demos used to exist, because we didn't know any better on this platform. They mostly disappeared, because we learned to make better ones. Please notice that i started saying "if you ask me". This is not a statement. ;)

Revolved has no shocking effects, i've already written this at my comment saying "equally good with the 2nd place demo. this demo has very smooth transitions which is a very hard thing to do. but missing thing was the killer demo effects. in 2013, you really need one or two at least. still very polished. congratulations.".

So, we are able to see what you see. But we don't rate demos with your standards but our own. I hope you get my point.

Also please keep in mind that this scene would have died earlier if it has followed a personal idea of any of us. It's still alive because everybody is making their stuff with their own way. Thank god...

2013-02-17 22:13

PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271

I have voted 9 for the triad demo because it is really a masterful demo with so much care and love in and the hours spent must be so massive, it runs smooth and it is really good. I am sorry again I guess about me beeing so into these demo things and pasionate about it, when one try to write with passion on here and it gets bad in a way, ironi is gone, the smile when saying a thing is gone no emotions from me, just me thinking and hammering down on the keys. I am sorry for that. Triad and bepp you made a fantastic demo and I did not meen to put it down, I were talking more about the way of making demos... and there, boing I am the one doing something I myself hate and all when others tell me... SORRY! I am a man and I stand for this, really sorry... because what you should only be doing is to be so happy about your demo and winning DS and all... it were the best and most worked on demo there. All make demos, crack a game, make a tune or what ever!

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