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Forums > C64 Coding > Disabling AR freeze button
2003-02-20 22:19
6R6

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 245
Disabling AR freeze button

Is it possible to disable the Action
Replay freeze function 100% ?

In that case, please enlighten me... :)

 
... 83 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....
 
2018-10-01 16:57
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386
to avoid emulator cracking, implement a proper protection and ship on disks :)
2018-10-01 17:30
oziphantom

Registered: Oct 2014
Posts: 490
yeah but zoomfloopy etc lets you get a G64 to which you can then start to look at the disk and find the parts if you can't just load it into VICE to start with...
2018-10-01 17:30
oziphantom

Registered: Oct 2014
Posts: 490
Maybe Tape is the way to go, as all Leet crackers ditched their tape drives years ago and hence won't be able to read it?
2018-10-01 17:58
Tao

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
Quote: Maybe Tape is the way to go, as all Leet crackers ditched their tape drives years ago and hence won't be able to read it?

Except the Leet gamers also ditched their tape drives years ago; I think it's more likely that you'll find crackers with tape drives than gamers--and if there are no gamers, what's the point of releasing the games on tape?

But yeah, tape protections are fun to crack.
2018-10-01 18:11
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386
Quote:
yeah but zoomfloopy etc lets you get a G64 to which you can then start to look at the disk and find the parts if you can't just load it into VICE to start with...

there are a couple things you can do that will make it at least non trivial to create a proper g64, ie requiring manual analyzing of the protection first and manual patching of the g64 to make it work. basically requiring to crack the protection before you can make a g64 :=) not many ppl in this cracking scene left who would be able to do this :)

a tape on the other hand is rather easy to dump, and it will certainly work in the emulator.
2018-10-01 19:03
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980
Quoting Zaphod
Also as far as i know you CANNOT detect a tri-logic expert in off mode (physically disabled by flipping the switch). Has anyone confirmed beating 1541U or Tri Logic Expert?
Not sure what "beating 1541U" means in this context, but the drive portion can definitely be detected as being a 1541U.

FWIW, 1541U (up to and including current versions) detection code.
drvch1541u: .byte "m-e", .lobyte($0205), .hibyte($0205); read forward
            sei
            ldx #$ff
            stx $0300
            stx $1803; set all port pins as outputs
            lda #$a4; bit 0 may be forced to GND (1541-II) or connected to track 0 sensor (1541-C, normally 0 = not on track 0)
            sta $1801
            cmp $1801
            bne is1541u
            anc #$8a; and #imm, but no asl/rol, bit 7 of result goes to carry
            beq is1541u
            bcc is1541u
            txa
            arr #$7f; bit 6 of result goes to carry
            ror $0300
is1541u:    inc $1803; set all port pins as inputs
            cli
            rts
drvchkued:
If $0300 has a negative value after execution, 1541U detected.
2018-10-01 22:30
AlexC

Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 299
Quote: Yeah, stopping the freeze button is no help with emulator cracking.

This is because you can always use breakpoints and stop it before the anti freezer code runs, and remove it.

Emulator breakpoints are REALLY powerful tools.

I suppose in theory if you set up the anti freeze routine inside the loader, such that it's active before the main program loads, it should work, but making a loader that actually works under these constraints is non trivial.

TO avoid emulator cracking, you must write anti-emulator code. which is a great way to reveal emulator bugs, and get them fixed.

Also as far as i know you CANNOT detect a tri-logic expert in off mode (physically disabled by flipping the switch). Has anyone confirmed beating 1541U or Tri Logic Expert?


Actually Expert can be programmed with switch set to OFF position. Take a look at this release: MMC Expert V2.10c

So yes, it is possible to beat it. Secondly there were different versions of Expert. First batch used only NMI generated by Restore key so blocking NMI resulted in Expert being dead. The ESM circuitry if I remember correctly acknowledges NMI to simple NMI lock based on issuing it without ACK is not working any more. (This works in ON mode obviously).

In case of 1541U are we talking about any particular freezer ROM?
2018-10-02 09:43
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386
the 1541U freezer can also "beaten" easily by using CIA timers.(*) in the VICE testrepo are some testprograms you can use to confirm this :)

(*) if you need regular timers - there are two TOD clocks for you that can finally be put to good use.
2018-10-02 09:54
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980
Yes, relying chip-internal states that cannot be backed up and restored reliably is a very good way to beat any freezer (except in an emulator, of course). :)
2018-10-02 10:40
oziphantom

Registered: Oct 2014
Posts: 490
Quote: Quote:
yeah but zoomfloopy etc lets you get a G64 to which you can then start to look at the disk and find the parts if you can't just load it into VICE to start with...

there are a couple things you can do that will make it at least non trivial to create a proper g64, ie requiring manual analyzing of the protection first and manual patching of the g64 to make it work. basically requiring to crack the protection before you can make a g64 :=) not many ppl in this cracking scene left who would be able to do this :)

a tape on the other hand is rather easy to dump, and it will certainly work in the emulator.


There are in the lamer lands you know their names.. that have people who love a good tape loader, there are even people who play the retro games on Twitch and have a camera showing the tapedeck while it loads for "true authenticity" ... yeah me too...

I mean while the g64 will need some patching, it would still be trivial for it get most of the data off the disk, and reading it would be easy to in dirmaster right. Yes you have to crack the image, but you could also load it and see where it goes wrong in VICE etc right? Any disk game we make now has to be mastered on a 1541 or 1571 Ablex are long gone and so are the machines that can write the wafers however we want. So if a 1541/71 can write the disk, a zoomfloppy can read it right? I guess the number of people with RAM expansion and Parrallel mods are low, so that might help?

Now for a 1571 128 release, that I can do some serious heckling with ;) I mean we don't even have a G71 image format for starters :D
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