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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
A tip for screenshots.
If you use VICE to take screenshots turn off the PAL-emulation to get screenshots with more realistic colours. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Yeps,and then use something like Photoshop.
Copy the .BMP into a pre-made image of 320-200.
Save a .GIF with 16 colors and you´re done.
Problem is when it comes to sideborder screenshots. ;) |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
I think saving it as .PNG with the PAL-emulation off is good enough :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: I think saving it as .PNG with the PAL-emulation off is good enough :)
Never too old to learn. °ashamed°
Short-sighted....me??...
Thanx Zyron!! 8) |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Expand image to double size, turn pal filter on. do a screengrab, import to photoshop, crop and resize it to around 400x300.
done |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
I use Picture Publisher and a local instead of a global colour palette. I think it works nicely, too. I never turn on PAL emulation. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
its always interesting to see such discussions, taking a screenshot for me needs as much brainactivity as scratching my ass. Eagerly waiting for the rest smartheads to tell how to take a screenshot in interlace, and how about the borders? Come on in, and let the show start! |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
Whats wrong with Alt+C and then save as png? given your running Vice under Windows. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Quote: Whats wrong with Alt+C and then save as png? given your running Vice under Windows.
Nothing at all. If you ask me that's the best way, just turn off the PAL-Emulation first :)
The way algorithm explained seems very complicated and the screenshots doesn't turn out that good either, at least not the ones I've seen. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
To add my two cents to this globally important discussion:
I only use CCS64 V2.0 for screenshots, Alt+P to pause emulation, N (or Alt+N, not sure right now) to skip frame by frame and then Alt+F1 for a 16 colour shot, and Alt+F2 for interlaced shots. (Edit: When doing mass screenshooting for the Demodungeon, I reduce the colours of screenshots in GIF Animator 4 with the batch process function to dump unused colours to eventually reduce bitdepth, then save the bmps as gif. Final conversion to PNG is then done by Exorzist).
For a quick screenshot in Vice to add to CSDB I use the built in Alt+C function and save as PNG. Please don't crop the border, it looks strange. And due to the very good PNG compression efficiency you don't save more than a couple of bytes by cropping an empty border. |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
Quote: Nothing at all. If you ask me that's the best way, just turn off the PAL-Emulation first :)
The way algorithm explained seems very complicated and the screenshots doesn't turn out that good either, at least not the ones I've seen.
Have not have time/bothered to install the latest vice. But afik, when doing alt+c you dont get any pal emulation in the screenshot? I use alt+c quite often to "proof-read" my code. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
The PAL Emulation makes quite a difference, compare these two:
PAL on: The Final Synth Sample I
PAL off: The Final Synth Sample I |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
ok, I rest my case.. :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
I think PAL-emulation is ment to give an indication of how things would look on a TV.
Turning it on,gives the screen a bit of a more ´blurred´ view.
But Graham explained that the colors on a C64 get ´blurred´ at the source.
Colors influence the colors next to them and I think that is true and not a trick of the eye.
But should I always make a screenshot with borders even when there is nothing happening in there? |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: I think PAL-emulation is ment to give an indication of how things would look on a TV.
Turning it on,gives the screen a bit of a more ´blurred´ view.
But Graham explained that the colors on a C64 get ´blurred´ at the source.
Colors influence the colors next to them and I think that is true and not a trick of the eye.
But should I always make a screenshot with borders even when there is nothing happening in there?
I think the border should be there always. That's just how the screen looks. It has a border, may it be black or blue or any other color. Keep the border! :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
all your borders belong to me |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@Zyron: That two screenshot would look exactly the same if the same base colors would have been used. No matter if PAL emulation or not.
EDIT:
Looking more close at them: both DON'T use PAL emulation. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Both were taken with VICE 1.16 using the same palette, one with PAL Emulation turned on & one with it turned off. Why would I make that up? |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: @Zyron: That two screenshot would look exactly the same if the same base colors would have been used. No matter if PAL emulation or not.
EDIT:
Looking more close at them: both DON'T use PAL emulation.
Maybe we should look at VICE and implement a switch to set the PAL emulation on/off for screenshots?
It's open source you know. :)
PAL emulation is very nice for running the stuff. It looks very blocky on my TFT otherwise.
I would also like it to automatically do 'list' before 'run', like one would do on a normal c64. :)
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Maybe we should look at VICE and implement a switch to set the PAL emulation on/off for screenshots?
It's open source you know. :)
PAL emulation is very nice for running the stuff. It looks very blocky on my TFT otherwise.
I would also like it to automatically do 'list' before 'run', like one would do on a normal c64. :)
Why would I want that?
If I list before run I only see a SYS number anyway. But then I am no coder... |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: Why would I want that?
If I list before run I only see a SYS number anyway. But then I am no coder...
It was quite common to put release information in the sys-line. Year/Group for example. When checking loads of stuff to upload it's a pain to do 'list' because VICE has no quick menu to just load the program, only load and run. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@Zyron: Nopes, Vice doesn't save screenshots with PAL emulation, but it saves screenshots with a wrong palette if PAL emulation is turned on. Look here:
Normal 16 color shot: http://www.oxyron.de/html/deus1.gif
Wrong palette shot: http://www.oxyron.de/html/deus2.gif
Real PAL emulation shot (done with "print" button): http://www.oxyron.de/html/deuspal.jpg |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Maybe it's just me, but the screenshot with PAL emulation just looks much better, whereas the no PAL emulation screenshot has these ugly candy colours. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@Steppe: The "candy" colors is just a matter of your saturation setting in Vice. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: @Steppe: The "candy" colors is just a matter of your saturation setting in Vice.
So if the candy colours are not it, what indicates the wrong palette then? Because I totally agree with Steppe. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 254 |
Kodak Gold in an oldschool camera and a decent scanner, that is what we need. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Kodak Gold in an oldschool camera and a decent scanner, that is what we need.
Or somebody who's willing to actually draw a copy of what's displayed.
JSL could do it. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@Nafcom: First, the PAL emulation screenshots has the same colors as the 16 color screenshot. Only the "wrong colors" shot has a wrong palette. To get this palette in Vice, simply divide the saturation setting by 2. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Or somebody who's willing to actually draw a copy of what's displayed.
JSL could do it.
And I am sure he would be able to do it in almost real time! |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: @Nafcom: First, the PAL emulation screenshots has the same colors as the 16 color screenshot. Only the "wrong colors" shot has a wrong palette. To get this palette in Vice, simply divide the saturation setting by 2.
You meant a setting in Vice, sorry. Clear now :)
Thanks! |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 254 |
Quote: And I am sure he would be able to do it in almost real time!
i am willing to pay 0,50 euro for each screenshot i add. but then i want it upped within 30 minutes. |
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Bastet
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 88 |
You have problems.... ts....
If you want real colors grab your digicam and your real c64 and make a screenshot there.
*mumbles something about that he wants your problems and wanders off* |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: You have problems.... ts....
If you want real colors grab your digicam and your real c64 and make a screenshot there.
*mumbles something about that he wants your problems and wanders off*
no, then dane would bitch about my tv screen being all red |
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Bastet
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 88 |
Pff, then someone do dane a favor and build a PCI Card with a VIC on it that works like a TV-Card. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Pff, then someone do dane a favor and build a PCI Card with a VIC on it that works like a TV-Card.
That's already in the making by some NTSC person :) |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Personally I think there are numerous ways of converting a C64 image to the pc .gif or .png. The trouble occurs when people break the standards:
Images more concerned in providing an aura for the production:
You Know the Routine 2
Weird compression and formats:
Equal Rights
Different colorscheme and probably not even C64:
Cocillana
There are other examples of the old vs. new vic chips (ie. orange looking brighter than light red, etc...)
Personally I think there is nothing wrong with the built in feature of the Vice? What is wrong with setting up some sort of rules that leave as little artistry outside or perhaps even the other way around. I tried myself to change a couple of screens but with no luck. Should this be a feature only Perff is the only one able to take care of?
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Seriously, I really don't mind how the screenshots look like as most of the time I check out the releases in the emu or on the real thing, if possible. For myself, I try to upload as accurate screendumps (yes) as possible, even leaving options for downloading more versions (e.g. blurred/non blurred).
I'm not the one who wanks the most on wrong screenhots and gets too annoyed if they're non-blurred or way saturated. A screenshots is an option, not a must. Especially not for musicplayers with an empty green screen. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
My god, taking a screenshot isn't quite rocketscience!
It is meant to give an impression. If you want to see what it really looks like, download the file and run it on a machine of your likings, be it WinVICE or the real deal.
I take screenshots in WinVICE, with no PAL amulation and default palette, and save it to PNG if it's only one screen.
When I do interlaced, I save the two frames and mix them in Photoshop 50%/50% transparency.
The I choose "save for the web" and reduce the size of the palette as much as possible without loosing colours.
Multiple screens are GIF, but same procedure. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
... Funny you mention the green-screen-musicplayer in line with your argument around the optionality of the screendump feature, Jailbird.
With the green screen at least you arrive at something more exotic than just a black (in this case: invisible, non existant, whatever...) screen, but I guess I agree with you on most of the stuff. And returning to your example it would probably be fair to say that there has been too many black screens to waste .gif and .png space here so yeah, perhaps not that bad example only you got the color wrong!
Nevertheless, we live in a bitmap age and I am not so sure text-search always is that convenient. The eyes are still there c. How do you search for a needle in a haystack if you cannot touch, feel, taste or remember it unless you have a look at it ;D
This whole distorted-color-discussion- was something that probably got a new start with emulators and internet but has been the problem of C64 graphics since beginning of time. By now I guess any modern pc-monitor gives you a more standardized look, blurring the intentions of the author and the position of the beholders.
Nevertheless all this became a rocketscience when people tried to standardize the color-sceme already back a couple of years and trying to standardize the proper static look of a interlace picture, etc...
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
I have to fix a little bug in ur post ed here..:
"... Funny you mention the green-screen-musicplayer in line with your argument around the optionality of the screendump (yes it's really called like that ;)) feature, Jailbird."
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
... Funny you mention the green-screen-musicplayer in line with your argument around the optionality of the screendump feature, Jailbird...
GODDAMN IT!!! I just realised what is this new WD picture all about!
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Quote: ... Funny you mention the green-screen-musicplayer in line with your argument around the optionality of the screendump feature, Jailbird...
GODDAMN IT!!! I just realised what is this new WD picture all about!
Sorry dude. The picture is a Post-modern release and its green due to the lack of snow here in Sweden. Try to look at the picture more of something like a tapestry. But it was close enough ;D
----
Now did anyone remember if there ever were problems with the green color? The red and orange colors, next to the gray ones did make some fuzz on the different C64-(vic) models. And clearly by saving a screendump made with Pal emulation there are some differences. But I mean on the real deal now.
The real problem with the thumbnails really lies in the fact that I believe that there are many people that are more active on csdb while at work, and lack the possibility of downloading the stuff. It is hard to judge a picture if it looks interlaced, and equally it is hard to judge interlaced pictures from superb thumbnails. (Electric is an excellent example, but there are other less famous artists on the scene with worse and in this case even better examples!)
The scene has transformed into a buffer reality zone where very little actually is happening on the real machine or even on the emulators these days.
We use tools to overcome even the emulator and this trend is something that will continue with every new graphic program and disc-utility. Face it this is not something new but has been there since day one. The screendump problem is that we want it to look like a real c64, because in reality most of us lack it. This type of compensation really speaks more of how we live our lives and the constant need to secure our scene over and over with concepts of standardization, ideas of truth and so forth.
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Quote: I have to fix a little bug in ur post ed here..:
"... Funny you mention the green-screen-musicplayer in line with your argument around the optionality of the screendump (yes it's really called like that ;)) feature, Jailbird."
Thanks mate! I almost should have seen that coming ;D |
