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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Looking for GFX and CODE for a game...
I've had a brilliant idea for a graphical adventure game for the C64, but am totally incompetent at pixeling and coding. Therefore I ask the help of the scene to make the best C64 adevture game ever. I have a plot written and am planning on writing the script, I just need somebody to either point out or code a nice graphics enigine (a la Maniac Mansion or Zak McCracken) and draw some graphics. I will wrie the script, design the gameplay, etc. More info about the plot and stuffa available on request.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Sounds great! :) But I think, meanwhile the graphics can be much better than "Zak McKracken" and "Maniac Mansion"! :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
your idea is doomed to die. we have 10 ideas like that every week but noone ever realises them.
Im not pessimistic or anything, but from experience thats how things work. |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: your idea is doomed to die. we have 10 ideas like that every week but noone ever realises them.
Im not pessimistic or anything, but from experience thats how things work.
I've gathered this from the response I got on Lemon. I think my game has a better chance of getting made if I do it as a text adventure in Inform or the Quill. Heck with The Quill, I'll even be able to have ilustrations (albeit only in hi-res 1 color if my memory serves me correctly)
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
You could also use The Graphic Adventure Creator. I once used it to make my adventure The Island but without any graphics. |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: You could also use The Graphic Adventure Creator. I once used it to make my adventure The Island but without any graphics.
I tried it but when I went to test one of the sample games that was included on the disk I had a CPU jam in VICE. As I will (by neccesity) be developing in VICE and 80-90% of my audience will be playing in VICE, it makes sense to use something that won't crash. Also GAC is poorly documented online, while the Quill has the whole manual online (technically for the BBC Micro version, but it works identically from a user standpoint) Still, I'll see what I can find as it IS supposed to be much more flexible.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I've gathered this from the response I got on Lemon. I think my game has a better chance of getting made if I do it as a text adventure in Inform or the Quill. Heck with The Quill, I'll even be able to have ilustrations (albeit only in hi-res 1 color if my memory serves me correctly)
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above.
Now that's the question, if one thinks that Out of Order is working on adventure games and Newcomer English Enhanced Edition got released in 2001 :)
Please do not give up that fast, I want to see another great graphic adventure, even as a commercial release |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Now that's the question, if one thinks that Out of Order is working on adventure games and Newcomer English Enhanced Edition got released in 2001 :)
Please do not give up that fast, I want to see another great graphic adventure, even as a commercial release
Well, there's loads of cross assemblers to download and 6502 tutorials on the web... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
indeed, the best way to find a coder is to learn coding :o) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: indeed, the best way to find a coder is to learn coding :o)
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
It would be years of learning before I could write good enough code to make a SCUMM-style adventure game engine. Given that, I think it might be better if I started writing games in a way that I can learn without years of prior work.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
OK, this is not meant to flame you, but just as an interesting question, considering that apart from MM & Zak there aren't SCUMM-style engines anywhere on the C64 (and especially not by scene members), did you think somewhere there was an engine in "hiding"? :)
Timeframe doesn't really matter, it could be expected that even if you found a coder, at least year, possibly several would pass anyway before there was a well-working engine & system to support it. So you wouldn't be much worse off learning yourself. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
mmmh aeg showed me a scumm-alike game he has started a long time ago....wasnt that ever released? *shrug*
whatever, such kind of engine isnt really that hard to write, the biggest problem on c64 would be fitting a reasonable amount of objects into memory :) |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: mmmh aeg showed me a scumm-alike game he has started a long time ago....wasnt that ever released? *shrug*
whatever, such kind of engine isnt really that hard to write, the biggest problem on c64 would be fitting a reasonable amount of objects into memory :)
No, 48 Hours wasn't ever released.
Look here:
48 hours Preview +T |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: OK, this is not meant to flame you, but just as an interesting question, considering that apart from MM & Zak there aren't SCUMM-style engines anywhere on the C64 (and especially not by scene members), did you think somewhere there was an engine in "hiding"? :)
Timeframe doesn't really matter, it could be expected that even if you found a coder, at least year, possibly several would pass anyway before there was a well-working engine & system to support it. So you wouldn't be much worse off learning yourself.
Perhaps... Still, Quality games are needed sooner rather than later, so I'll make a quality game with tools I can use rather than tools that don't exist.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Quote: mmmh aeg showed me a scumm-alike game he has started a long time ago....wasnt that ever released? *shrug*
whatever, such kind of engine isnt really that hard to write, the biggest problem on c64 would be fitting a reasonable amount of objects into memory :)
Ah, that doesn't seem to be a true SCUMM-engine anyway as there are no characters moving (yet) and no sign of correct Z-layering / foreground masking :) |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: Ah, that doesn't seem to be a true SCUMM-engine anyway as there are no characters moving (yet) and no sign of correct Z-layering / foreground masking :)
I guess that leaves the pseudo-SCUMM used for the C64 Lucasarts adventures as the only graphical adventure engine for C64... Sierra never could be bothered to port theirs...
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hannenz
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 24 |
@madcrow:
let me hear about your ideas and maybe i could join the project (code & gfx)
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: @madcrow:
let me hear about your ideas and maybe i could join the project (code & gfx)
The game goes as follows: in the far furure, an evil dictator has banned all fun things, including games. One day, a young man cleaning the attic comes across a mysterious blank motherboard from which most of the chips have been removed. Seeing only that it was made by Commodore, he sets out to find the missing parts (stuff like the various chips, etc) and ends up causing an entertainment revolution.
In short, this is whacked out interactive fiction at its finest/worst/whatever. If you're really interested in doing graphics, I'll have to warn you that the tool I'm planning on using can only handle graphics in its own custom format made in an in-program editor. The graphics themeselves are standard 4-color MC but are stored in some sort of pseudo-vector format. The program is Graphical Adventure Creator, if you care to look it up.
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quote: OK, this is not meant to flame you, but just as an interesting question, considering that apart from MM & Zak there aren't SCUMM-style engines anywhere on the C64 (and especially not by scene members), did you think somewhere there was an engine in "hiding"? :)
Timeframe doesn't really matter, it could be expected that even if you found a coder, at least year, possibly several would pass anyway before there was a well-working engine & system to support it. So you wouldn't be much worse off learning yourself.
Please define SCUMM-like engine.
I mean, apart from MM and Zak, there were some games with a similar style. Murder on the Mississippi comes to mind first here. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
OK, to be honest I'd define it in a quite extreme way, something that would be able to implement most features in Lucasfilm adventures..
- arbitrary shaped backgrounds with multiple Z-layers
- masking of sprites/objects when they go behind those layers
- scrolling
- smart pathfinding
- hugeass amount of data / text / rooms / animations possible -> need a nice memory manager and loadersystem, possibly non-DOS format to overcome directory size limit & lost space due to last sectors of files, IFFL is also fine
- scripted actions for NPCs etc.
- verb/noun interface as seen in SCUMM games
It may be that the original poster wouldn't even demand such engine, but it'd be better to blow the C64 scene away properly at once :) |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: OK, to be honest I'd define it in a quite extreme way, something that would be able to implement most features in Lucasfilm adventures..
- arbitrary shaped backgrounds with multiple Z-layers
- masking of sprites/objects when they go behind those layers
- scrolling
- smart pathfinding
- hugeass amount of data / text / rooms / animations possible -> need a nice memory manager and loadersystem, possibly non-DOS format to overcome directory size limit & lost space due to last sectors of files, IFFL is also fine
- scripted actions for NPCs etc.
- verb/noun interface as seen in SCUMM games
It may be that the original poster wouldn't even demand such engine, but it'd be better to blow the C64 scene away properly at once :)
I agree with you! :) |
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
I am still waiting for the CF-Adventure from Out of Order :D ! Computer-Flohmarkt, those were the times. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I always wanted LOOM for c64 - quite doable with a decent artist at hand...
the scummvm.org - project recently added d64-support so there is 'nice' c++-code that interprets the original data. Worth a look I think.
Loom (or Indy3 :) but rather the former would be a fun idea since it could need the best loader there is, the best gfx there are :) and some good code as well. Actually since loom does have a rather simple point & click -system (and a wonderful wonderful plot) the code-part is proabably the least problem - well, pathfinding and clipping etc...
All in all something thats probably too big for volunteers :(
Still, I keep up the hope.
Even started to test some converters on the ega (not vga)-gfx of the original loom - after all its 16 colors :)
Maybe the first fli-gfx-adv? :)
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
If Loom EGA could be ported than so could (in theory at least) Monkey Island 1 EGA. It would be an interesting project.
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Quote: mmmh aeg showed me a scumm-alike game he has started a long time ago....wasnt that ever released? *shrug*
whatever, such kind of engine isnt really that hard to write, the biggest problem on c64 would be fitting a reasonable amount of objects into memory :)
No, actually.. the real problem is getting a coder who claims it isn't that hard to do to actually get his ass up and do something.... anything ;)
That being said, I believe Logan by Byteriders was kinda like Maniac Mansion, wasn't it? And I think Sebastian Broghammer does qualify as a scener ;) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
I think you will find a coder when I finish Troddlers Preview V2 ;) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
Quote: OK, to be honest I'd define it in a quite extreme way, something that would be able to implement most features in Lucasfilm adventures..
- arbitrary shaped backgrounds with multiple Z-layers
- masking of sprites/objects when they go behind those layers
- scrolling
- smart pathfinding
- hugeass amount of data / text / rooms / animations possible -> need a nice memory manager and loadersystem, possibly non-DOS format to overcome directory size limit & lost space due to last sectors of files, IFFL is also fine
- scripted actions for NPCs etc.
- verb/noun interface as seen in SCUMM games
It may be that the original poster wouldn't even demand such engine, but it'd be better to blow the C64 scene away properly at once :)
you can steal masking of sprites/objects from the PD64 codebase.. it's really nice & fast code and uses nice packing of the mask data :).. calculating 3 ball sprites costs me about 24 rasterlines/frame. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
No, actually.. the real problem is getting a coder who claims it isn't that hard to do to actually get his ass up and do something.... anything ;)
hehe. i've written such an engine for the gba, and even there it wasnt trivial to fit everything into ram (most objects can be manipulated in some way, so the lots of rom space doesnt really help).... i have thought about porting the thing to c64 more than once, would be a really interisting project actually, but i couldnt come up with a decent idea on the memory problem yet :/ if i recall correctly that was also the problem aeg had - once you add a non trivial game/story to your point+click engine you face memory problems quickly. maniac mansion and zakmckracken became a lot more impressing after doing all that :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
They did? Bloody hell, i was pretty impressed already and i've never even tried that kind of engine! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
@tmr: the original scumm v1 engine (which was used for the c64 games) uses a crazy mix of interpreted scripts and embedded machine code, then there is a simple form of virtual memory, a custom filesystem/discformat and some other nifty stuff. it must have been a lot of hard work to make those games work at all.... no wonder they had a *huge* team working on it back then. |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: @tmr: the original scumm v1 engine (which was used for the c64 games) uses a crazy mix of interpreted scripts and embedded machine code, then there is a simple form of virtual memory, a custom filesystem/discformat and some other nifty stuff. it must have been a lot of hard work to make those games work at all.... no wonder they had a *huge* team working on it back then.
The fact that so much of the game logic is embedded in the engine itself rather than in the scripts is one reason you I couldn't just rip off SCUMM v1 and create new scripts and resources...
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
@MADCROW
Have you tried CCS64 ? It works better then VICE in some cases... Adventure game without graphics can be fun, but you get much much more attention with it... So try GraphicAdventureCreator and CCS64. Although its not the adventure like scumm it can be pretty...
I agree with what someone said before: I have tons of ideas every week, but to little time to make an honest effort.. :( So anything that gets you moving is OK.
@WVL
Could you be more specific at where is that info in PD64 on masking? thanks...
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
hey popmilo :
you can dl the devpack from http://www.interstyles.nl/Dev.rar.
the most important routine you should look for is inside /source/MAIN.txt and is called "calcclippedsprite".
the masking-data it needs are insidie /includes/[ignition/nightmare]/source/maps.txt
those datas are made using a black&white greyscale .pcx file, that is converted with the PDtool, and two ugly DOS-tools.. (i think I should make 1 big tool for it someday..). There's a topic in coding forums about the crunchcharset-tool :)
Anyway, some basic things :
the maskdata is stored using a 'charset' of 8x8 blocks, and a 'screen', which is similar to a normal c64 screen, pointing to the chars..
now ofcourse the tool removes all unneccesary chars, trying to fit in <$100 chars (nightmare uses around $a8 chars iirc)..
next up is RLE-packing and dual-line removing of the screen-data, and finally the charset data is 'packed', by merging as many of the data as possible and generating a pointer table.
example :
say char 0 is like $ff,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
and char 1 is like 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,$55
now the tool will compact those into $ff,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,$55, and char 0 will have a pointer to the start, and char 1 to the 2nd byte, sounds easy, but not easy to 'compute' a optimal solution... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
looks like monkey island is the holy grail of c64 game coders :) I bet that the maniac mansion engine is could be more efficient. bet it doesnt realtime rle depack room screen data, and there's no packed data on disk at all.
afterall how much data you need for a room ? only sideways scrolling.. a 2-3 screen room is max 0c00 (screen)+ 0800 (chars) = $1400, stuff like paths can be built into screen data, etc. I always thought while playing the game that it loads too much, and too long. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
the screens/rooms and maps arent the problem....those are relativly static and occupy relativly little memory... the big problem is the data for all manipulateable objects, that must be kept over the whole game, much of it isnt static at all. in maniac mansion and zak they had to resort to dividing the game into relativly small "chapters". |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
ok, data for all objects, how about 1 byte / object ? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
explain how you are putting all the flags and states into one byte :) also dont underestimate the amount of non static data needed by all the scripts that can be triggered by every object. |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: @MADCROW
Have you tried CCS64 ? It works better then VICE in some cases... Adventure game without graphics can be fun, but you get much much more attention with it... So try GraphicAdventureCreator and CCS64. Although its not the adventure like scumm it can be pretty...
I agree with what someone said before: I have tons of ideas every week, but to little time to make an honest effort.. :( So anything that gets you moving is OK.
@WVL
Could you be more specific at where is that info in PD64 on masking? thanks...
I've switched to GAC. Turns out it works in VICE after all.
My website and a first screenshot are now up. Check it out at http://www.cbm8.net/adventrix
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