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Codey
Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 79 |
Deus Ex Machina >> Edge of Disgrace
deus ex machina was more impressive and had more of an impact in 2000 than EoD did this year. i firmly believe a production should be judged against the era it was released. don't make me revisit the whole wonderland and larch series for greatest demo of all time. no disrespect to EoD or pearls for pigs. both excellent productions, but getting way too many votes compared to earlier productions. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I never saw whats special about Deus Ex.. to me Dutch Breeze is much better. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I enjoyed Seal of Focalor and Dutch Breeze more, because it was a big impact for me compared to other releases at THAT time.
EoD is incredible and so is DEM.
Think Twice was great too :)
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
I enjoyed Mixer/Upfront more |
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TPM
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 |
During my active days the following demos totally blasted me away:
1988: New Limits by TST
The whole border scroller together with the music thrilled me alot at that time. It still does, maybe because of the nostalgia.
1989: Dignified by Density (design & idea)
I had deep respect for those guys, because of the creativity of high quality. Thanks to their hospitality at home and several meetings (e.g. Oosterhout) i learned alot from them. Dignified was a result of joined creativity by Prime and Cool Crew.
1989: So-phisticated III by Black Mail (FLI)
What the fuck?! FLI!
1991: Dutch Breeze by Black Mail (code, design, idea)
Hein showed me some previews and screens long time before the demo was released. I couldn't imagine the FLI-font would be used for real some day haha! It was worth waiting for it and at last.. there it was, at the Silicon compo, which i remember like it was yesterday.
1996: Krestology by Crest (code)
A new era began. Code-p0rn to the top!
After that, it's difficult for me to judge the demos like in my active days. Pearls for Pigs, Deus Ex Machina, Edge of Disgrace, all superb demos! |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
It seems to me that what is considered 'impact demos' really differs from person to person.
One demo that had a huge impact on me was 'Eldorado/Origo'! Never before had I seen a C64 produce such an abundance of colors!
'Dutch Breeze' however failed to make any big impact on me back in the day.
Moving forward in time I'd also give a mention to 'Mathematica/Reflex'.
'Deus Ex Machina' also did have a certain wow-feeling when that first intelace picture with the sea extending into the sideborder.
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Obviously without Dutch Breeze there wouldn't have been a Deus Ex Machina and no Eod etc etc..
Like Mr Mouse (what's in a name!) wisely said in another thread:
What it comes down to is that Booze would not have been able to come up with these ideas if other demos and people (including their own efforts) had not preceded them, if it had not been more than 20 years since the day the first demos were created. In that respect, EoD is in a way a collective scene-effort that builds on the knowledge and experience of the community.
Had EoD been released back then on the same day as Dutch Breeze (or Deus Ex as some seem to get high on), it would probably without doubt have won the compo.
But it wasn't, because what we know now we didn't know then.
And for that i think we gotto think in terms of most influential demo. There's no way denying Crest was highly influenced by Dutch Breeze. To make it more obvious, just think of all the references they used. Therefore I hate seeing Dutch Breeze dissapear from the top 10 demo chart, it's just not right.
And personally i don't think it's the mainstream demos having most influence on the demoscene the last decade. There's been an obvious shift in type of demos... Definately not influenced by the top mainstream demos (which Deus Ex Machina, EoD etc all are in my eyes). Like in most creative industries, it's the 'underground punks' bringing in the fresh vibes, and the mainstream will adapt to it once it's proven to be liked. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote:Therefore I hate seeing Dutch Breeze dissapear from the top 10 demo chart, it's just not right.
It's on the 11th place now which is another depth for csdb and another proof this whole voting system here is a cancroid infested fuck-up sucks |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quote:It's on the 11th place now which is another depth for csdb and another proof this whole voting system here is a cancroid infested fuck-up sucks
That should be more than enough. Slideshows shouldn't be in the demo top 10.
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
It might be a bit off-topic to turn this into a discussion about Dutch Breeze, but I have to ask - exactly what did that demo bring to the table that make people regard it as one of the most influential demos of all time?
* Some nice pictures yes, but no new graphics mode introduced or any other technical invention.
* FLI scroller - had been done before. Might be the biggest one at that date, but still far from revolutionary.
* Game-like intro with scrolling and animated dragon. Sure, not the typical demo stuff, but surely similar stuff had been done before.
So I am guessing that is no specific thing, but instead for some the sum of the parts added up to something great.
Guess I'm just not one of those.
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
@Shadow: New standards in music, graphics and a design driven demo. It took the scene years to come close to this combined high quality standards of disciplines. And it probably had somewhat the same impact as EoD might have had on the X, the reactions were very similar.
I challenge you to do a similar list of things for EoD, which were more groundbreaking, compared to DB. For example, personally i cannot think of 'non typical demostuff' in EoD. In terms of being revolutionary.
@Cruzer, Argh! ;)
Anyway, EoD is the summary of perfection build on the heritage of the scene. I have great respect for all producers involved. I dislike having to drag this awesome piece into a non-discussion. Let it be clear that i'm not trying to drag it down, for it's too awesome :)
I rather let the wares speak :) |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Sander: Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one! It's probably because I'm a coder, and primarily judge demos based on code (not saying that design isn't important - it is, but unless it's backed by some nice code, I'm usually not impressed).
EoD brought several new routines that at least I hadn't seen before (HCB 8x4 plasma, 4x4 color dithered plasma, sprite zoomer on top of chessboard zoomer etc. etc.)
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quoting ScoutIt's on the 11th place now which is another depth for csdb and another proof this whole voting system here (censored) sucks The reason why I hardly voted and removed all the votes I ever made.
Voting only works when you vote for ALL compared items.
There's no system in voting for Edge Of Disgrace if you don't have to vote for Dutch Breeze, Deus Ex Machina etc. etc. as well. |
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der_ton
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 11 |
The ranking shouldn't be taken all that seriously. It's a rough overview of what's good and what's mediocre, and that's it, and from this angle it works quite well. 9.0 or 8.9, why make a drama out of that? |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quoting der_tonwhy make a drama out of that? Because Teh Scene == Drama and CSDb in particular!! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946 |
Quote: Quote:It's on the 11th place now which is another depth for csdb and another proof this whole voting system here is a cancroid infested fuck-up sucks
That should be more than enough. Slideshows shouldn't be in the demo top 10.
heh, now that you mentioned it, it's at 8th place. :) I suppose you should've said you like slide shows like DB, then it'd have been voted to 12th position. Ohwell.
I can understand your point of view, especially since I've been doing some code myself, considering all the cycle critical stuff, optimization of maths, handling of irqs/nmis, memory management in trackmoos etc.
But hey, if we (the graphics slaves) did our pictures and logos a little faster, DB would've been released 1-2 years earlier, so we are to blame. Some part's lyrics express this coders frustration (fli scroll/end part) of not releasing the routines earlier. Frankly, I think a couple of coders in Black Mail were good enough to do things we see in other top 10 demos that are released later, if they'd have been a bit more ambitious. |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quote: It might be a bit off-topic to turn this into a discussion about Dutch Breeze, but I have to ask - exactly what did that demo bring to the table that make people regard it as one of the most influential demos of all time?
* Some nice pictures yes, but no new graphics mode introduced or any other technical invention.
* FLI scroller - had been done before. Might be the biggest one at that date, but still far from revolutionary.
* Game-like intro with scrolling and animated dragon. Sure, not the typical demo stuff, but surely similar stuff had been done before.
So I am guessing that is no specific thing, but instead for some the sum of the parts added up to something great.
Guess I'm just not one of those.
Lick your finger... Then you will know *ROFL* |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Deus Ex Machina always felt like a mixed bag to me. On one level it impressed me, and on another level it did little for me. Which is why prefer Krestology, Ice Cream Castle, Krestage 1 so much more than Deus.
Deus Ex Machina contained just one tune, all be it a great tune. I prefer many good tunes. The intro picture, the all borders screen wipe Fx, the Turn Disk pt, had a wow factor. The rest of the demo was so, so, although I liked the Coke pt. The Crest/Oxyron bitmap at the end look good, the other images less fitting.
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Britelite
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 51 |
Quote: Deus Ex Machina always felt like a mixed bag to me. On one level it impressed me, and on another level it did little for me. Which is why prefer Krestology, Ice Cream Castle, Krestage 1 so much more than Deus.
Deus Ex Machina contained just one tune, all be it a great tune. I prefer many good tunes. The intro picture, the all borders screen wipe Fx, the Turn Disk pt, had a wow factor. The rest of the demo was so, so, although I liked the Coke pt. The Crest/Oxyron bitmap at the end look good, the other images less fitting.
Contained just one tune? You must have a different version than me, as the version of Deus Ex Machina I've seen has several different tunes... |
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Testa
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 197 |
i think deus and edge of disgrace are both great demos... i think the whole discussion of whitch demo is better makes no sense... they are both great in their own way.....
about dutch breeze i want to say, i only liked the graphics and the music. edge of disgrace and deus are far more advanced then dutch breeze... ofcourse back in the day, dutch breeze was a milestone for the scene but we,ve got to move on....
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Some people like apples, others prefer oranges. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Its unfair to compare EOD to Dutch Breeze.
Bear in mind when the Dutch Breeze demo was created. Not able to cross develop properly and the demo's previously before that era (eg raster bars etc)
It sure created a big impact
Now there is Edge of Disgrace which is a great demo, very polished. If you were to compare the two side by side without taking into regards when they were produced, Then EOD would obviously come up on tops
What you need to compare of what is the great demo is how much of a wow factor it had given at the time.
From the Era of raster bar demo's to Dutch breeze
or from the era of trackloaders to a very polished trackloader such as EOD
Bear in mind that Dutch breeze even though some people class it as a graphic show did many things in the background which as far as i am aware no other demo did. eg LZ in memory decompression of images in the background while demo is running etc as well as the smoothness and originality of all this allowing lots more data to be crammed into each section.
Demo's like EOD are great because it is now the standard benchmark of how demo's should be and should motivate coders to release something as good or better similar to the time when dutch breeze was released
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
and some people even like bananas :-) |
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Ymgve
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 84 |
It's strange that some of the demos that impressed me the most in the past have been absent from the discussion.
Red Storm/Triad - showed me that a demo could be more than a collection of parts, it had a theme. Also, I think it might have been one of the first to get rid of pressing space.
The Reflex demos - made demos more "modern" - more advanced effects while loading, no more than a few seconds spent on every effect, fast soundtracks. It was an experience different from any other demos I'd seen. |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Ymgve, you're speaking from my heart. I still haven't seen EoD (since I don't like to see this beast on emulator and my C128 is at my parents) but I think it's very useless to discuss style or design since everybody has another taste and sees things different. One has also to consider that we're all (more or less) grown up and so the overall impression of a demo is different to the days when we were little nerds waiting for the next mail from our favorite contact to get the newest demos.
The only thing one can discuss is the technical side how sophisticated is the code. But even there's a difference, some ppl get crazy over Cruzer mini-winnie demos in 256bytes others like to see the next FLI-mode another one like to see 25 ora-dycps.
I think Sander and algorithm said it best that there's no "best" demo but most influential or with the greatest wow-factor. Maybe we should name it "most wowing demos" instead of "Top Demos" here in CSDB... ;) |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
it's all subjective.. and we all have things from different times which made us think WTF the first time we ran them...
trick is if they stay in the memory years later or not.. that's the true test for me =)
I think we are all the same in that respect.
even if your one of the people listed in the top 10's... they all have influences from previous times/demos/people whose work they liked.
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
What a retarded thread. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
I think Codey is Graham in undercover :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i miss optimus in this thread :) |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Hey, didn't we discuss this before?
Hey, didn't we discuss this before?
Okay Codey: here's my two cents: EoD & Deus Ex both suck, hoorray for Dutch Breeze. ;) |
