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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
C64 Codebase
Hello!
It was a while ago now that C64 Codebase Wiki opened its doors. I would just like to encourage good coders sympathetic with this project to actually add some code there. This is important in order to keep the quality of the site. I feel that the quality is somehow fading a little with the stuff that has been added during the last 6 months, to generalize a little.
If you are a decent coder: Just think for a moment about all those sources that you have lying around on your C64 disks and PC harddrives. Codebase needs you!
http://codebase64.org/doku.php
If someone feel like donating some cool stuff, I could use that as prices in some kind of add-good-stuff-to-codebase-competition or so.
A good codebase is a good base for the future C64 scene! ;)
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Warnock
Registered: Sep 2007
Posts: 28 |
This codebase does not help me with what I seek. I'm looking for the DYCP Routine and DYBP Routine. I'm also
interested in learning about bit manipulation. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Strange reply indeed! However, if you find some info on this, feel free to contribute with missing info yourself. It is a wiki you know... |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Thank you! It looks quite good, has several articles I may need and today it motivated me to start coding on the C64 again. |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quote: Thank you! It looks quite good, has several articles I may need and today it motivated me to start coding on the C64 again.
WTF? FAIL! ;) Sorry, I know, this is not pouet *LOL* |
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Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 722 |
Quote: Thank you! It looks quite good, has several articles I may need and today it motivated me to start coding on the C64 again.
Yes, finding codebase also motivated me to start C64 coding again. I love the site. :)
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Happy to hear that the site actually had an effect. :) |
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Shastar
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 5 |
The colors of the site is cool,,but my eyes hurts.. |
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kamelito
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2006
Posts: 14 |
There's a lot of useful stuff all over the internet, maybe just find them and put them at codebase will gather more people and so more personal stuff add by individuals.
Regards
Kamelito |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
There seems to be a problem with the php in Codebase right now. I do hope the site can be fixed as contributors will be able to add more of their stuff. I cannot edit or update some of my entries
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The Shadow
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 304 |
Major cheers to the person who created the coders' database. Thank you Frantic. Currently I am preparing to have an NTSC training school, to preserve the ancient knowledge created by The Mind Slayer. I would like to contribute my knowledge of NTSC fixing and Basic Cracking skills. How does the coders' database operate? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Hello!
I noticed the problem today (reported by Richard). I will try to have a look at it this evening. In any case, it won't be dysfunctional for long.
//FTC |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Ive got the Sourcecode for my last two favorites plus intros. its nothing fancy and the code is probably pretty messy. Should i consider adding it or rather not? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
if you ask me I'd prefer articles over messy uncommented sources. or sources of useful short commented routines |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
Yeah.. sources where you have to do single-stepping and cycle counting in your head to figure out why some stuff actually works are no better that disassembling the stuff yourself, imho.
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I agree with the previous two posters. I think, minimally, if a piece of code is not integrated in an article text, it would at least have to be quite well structured and commented. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
The website is called 'Codebase' not 'Source dump'.
Also, people should add what assembler they use.
[edit 1]
Oh, and I find the website rather unstructured, information wise. Too much information on some pages, too little categorised.
But hey... let's first gather and then sort later ;-)
[edit 2]
BTW, wouldn't it be nice to have some semi-code to introduce the real code?
The real code sometimes is so big, it's hard to get your head around it. A simple little paragraph that describes the principle would be a nice introduction... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
yeah...
main sections should be like this:
6510
VICII (irq timing etc should be here from hw setup)
SID
6526
I/O
Game coding
Demo coding
Cracking
Math & Algos
Emulators
OS coding (kernal&basic rom..)
Third Party Hardware (Hardware setup and detection moved to related chips)
Math operations sourcecode should be splitted to div/mul/sqrt/trig
6510 coding should be:
- cpu related
- adressing modes
- instruction set in details
- cycle table from graham's page
- illegals
- timings pinout, etc
- general routines
- ...
etc. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
i dont know but.... it's a wiki you know. its pointless to dump here how you think it should be ... |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I agree that the site needs a bit more structure. Groepaz is right in general, but even though I mainly provide the site and not its contents I would like to maintain some control over the general site structure. I think Oswalds suggestions are all good. If nobody disagrees with them, I will do something like that shortly.
I had a quick look into the permissions issue now and while I still don't know exactly what caused the problem, I have at least fixed the problem itself. If the permission problems appear again, please tell me.
Thank you all for providing thoughts and bug reports on the wiki. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: i dont know but.... it's a wiki you know. its pointless to dump here how you think it should be ...
the reason is we had disagreed on this with frantic earlier, so I just suggested before making changes also iirc frantic kept the rights of editing the main structures. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Well.. To be more precise. I think it is kinda hard to make a clear distinction between what is "demo coding" and what is "VIC coding". In theory it is simple, but in reality many of the articles are just as much about "VIC" as about "demo coding". (I am quite fine with the other categories suggested by Oswald though).
For this reason, I still think that VIC and demo coding should be on the same page. If you (anyone) disagree, please state more precisely what parts of the current VIC-and-Demo-page that should go on a "demo coding" page and what should go on a VIC page.
In any case though, Mace is of course also right when he points out that some parts of the wiki are rather messy due to too much content on one page (especially the VIC/demo-page). So... More structure is needed, yes.
I will have a look at it.
EDIT: What kind of content exactly would go on a "pure" Demo coding page? Seems to me that there aren't really much content available on "coding demos in general", apart maybe from Putermans tutorial or so. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
imho its pointless to divide "demo" and "game" coding ... many techniques are useful for both.
why not make a generic structure (without any of the "demo" and "game" cathegories) and additional portal pages for demo/game/tool/whatever related stuff ? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
vic&demo coding seperation:
VIC:
Basics
HW tricks
Custom modes
(all the sprite stuff below this seems to be rather game related)
demo
drawing on the screen
softmodes for effects
Articles on demo effects
Various VIC related
Demo Programming Tutorials
Sourcecodes for demo parts |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
VIC coding:
- $D011, $D016 and $D018 tricks (FLD, VSP, FLI etc.)
- sprite tricks (flexers, multiplexers and 9th sprite stuff)
- in short: anything that is based on $Dxxx register-freaking
Demo coding:
- scrollers (the 'difficulty' is not the VIC stuff)
- general displaying of video modes, static VIC stuff
- bitmap plotting
- basic (not BASIC) stuff like sinus sprites and DYCPS
- logo swing (and tech-tech, but this could be a VIC trick too)
- zoomers
- in short: mostly done in RAM, the VIC only supports.
Also, I don't think the chapter "Demo records and world firsts" belongs in the coding section. This is general background information as long as no code is attached.
[edit]Seems Oswald and I agree for the larger part :-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
but why do things like "scrolling" or "basic sprite stuff" belong into "demo" cathegory? i like the idea with portal pages more, then it could get a proper link from both game- and demo- related pages :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: imho its pointless to divide "demo" and "game" coding ... many techniques are useful for both.
why not make a generic structure (without any of the "demo" and "game" cathegories) and additional portal pages for demo/game/tool/whatever related stuff ?
thats a point, but having stuff like scrolling, collision detection, sorting plexers, game map, enemy object handling, etc. in its own game section decreases the content on one screen (if it would live with the demo stuff) and makes it more managable. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: but why do things like "scrolling" or "basic sprite stuff" belong into "demo" cathegory? i like the idea with portal pages more, then it could get a proper link from both game- and demo- related pages :)
yeah, scrolling, setting up basic screenmodes, basic sprite setup etc. should be all belong to VIC. its 2008, since 20+ years scrolling stuff and setting up koala gfx doesnt counts as demo fx. its basic knowledge. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
@Oswald/Mace: I still find the division between VIC/Demo/Game rather arbitrary. Whether the "advanced stuff" should go into a VIC section or a Demo section is not clear to me. Also... Inevitably, stuff like "sprite code" would consist in both simple and gradually more advanced stuff.
I think... What is needed is not only a structure (list of examples on what goes where), but also clear (and short) explanations that explain to the users where to put what kind of content in a clear way.
But... Yeah... I'll have a look. I also need to upgrade the dokuwiki distribution on the server, which means I have some stuff to do with it anyway. I hope nothing will break... :) (There are backups, yes..) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
you could also argue that crunchers/math/algorithms should belong to the demo section because demos use crunchers/math/algos etc... there's no perfect solution but some rough lines has to be drawn. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Yep.. I couldn't agree more. Structure is needed. (I did find the demo/vic distinction particularly blurred though). |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Okay.. Now I have spent the evening trying to do something about the structure on the codebase site, as well as updating to the latest dokuwiki version on the server. (That was very boring and I hate you all. ;)
I am still kinda confused myself about the distinction between "vic" and "demo" coding, but please, those of you who care; have a look and tell me what you think about the structure as it is now. I am very much open to any suggestions that you may have on how to improve things.
The VIC section itself is still rather messy. I am very happy for any attempts or suggestions on how to best clean this up. I am rather busy in these days... :)
Greetings to Jucke! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
its worse than ever, imho. a seperate section for simple routines is very annoying, those should be at the same place were the articles are. i have tried to click my way to the sideborder routine i submitted a while ago and couldnt even find it (WTF) and then gave up.
there are already too many cathegories, and structure is nested too deep, imho. better have a decent portal page or two. if you cant reach the document you want by at most 3 clicks, then the interface sucks =) |
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The Shadow
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 304 |
I agree, Codebase is a great concept and it needs a major makeover. It needs a new look. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Ok, I've taken a quick glance and here's my comment:
1) GET RID OF CONTENT ON THE PORTAL PAGE
- no extensive description of what a category is about (like 'custom graphics mode' has)
- no "FLI pictures can have all of the 16 colors in one char position." descriptions
- no 3 varieties of FLI routines linked in the main content listing
- no source references (article taken from...), only author (or not even that, it can be in the article itself)
2) ORDER LISTINGS
- TOC on every page
- items with contents on the top, red (unfilled) items at the bottom
- similar way (typography) of describing (not item_like_this and Item Like This; pick a style)
3) DIFFERENT HIERARCHY
- Introductive material higher in menu that VIC programming
- Difficult code lower than easy code |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: its worse than ever, imho. a seperate section for simple routines is very annoying, those should be at the same place were the articles are. i have tried to click my way to the sideborder routine i submitted a while ago and couldnt even find it (WTF) and then gave up.
there are already too many cathegories, and structure is nested too deep, imho. better have a decent portal page or two. if you cant reach the document you want by at most 3 clicks, then the interface sucks =)
i dont know but.... it's a wiki you know. its pointless to dump here how you think it should be .. |
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Ervin
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 14 |
<off - sorry, I couldn't miss it>
Quote:-cycle table from graham's page
I bet not this one :)
http://www.grahamscycles.co.uk
<on>
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
What about doing like this:
Like GPZ says, make the structure a lot more flat instead of hierarchical. Reducing the categories in the sideborder instead, and making only one section for VIC/Demo/Game.
...and, at the same time, do a bit like Mace says, by reducing content on the listing pages, so they become more compact (and thus more comprehensible anyway, even if the listings themselves (on a single page) will be a bit longer).
What do you think? (I also get the impression that you people are mainly commenting on the VIC/Demo stuff, which is all good, but what about the other sections on the wiki? Personally I think they work quite OK.)
Then again, in case the problems are with Dokuwiki itself, one could always consider migrating into another wiki system. However, I also think that people will always have different opinions on all kinds of things, so I am not really sure that would solve anything fundamentally anyway.
And some more specific replies:
@Mace: Just two questions... There is a table of contents on every page, generated by dokuwiki? (Not in case there is only one heading in the page, but..) Also, where is the "blah_blah_blah" naming you are talking about? Please point me to it so I can see what you mean. About the comment: "- no 3 varieties of FLI routines linked in the main content listing". What you suggest instead is to collect them on a "FLI page" and link to that instead, or what? (In many cases it becomes rather messy to do things like that I think, since it stops working as soon as an article involves doing a demo effect with FLI, and thus fits in several categories. This is what I tried to do with all contents related to sprite coding now, but... I think it failed..)
@Gpz: Yes... Your border routine was in the "sprite" section. I agree that this kind of problem is quite annoying. Of course, you can always just search for "Groepaz" in the search box or so, but of course the navigation fails if you cannot even find an article that you know is there.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
@ Frantic:
Quote:@Mace: Just two questions... You asked three questions, but I'm forgiving ;-)
I fixed some and will fix the rest, without destroying information.
Wait and see. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I did some further cleaning. No big restructuring this time though.
I was thinking that maybe a separated VIC and Demo section can be justified anyway:
VIC - General graphics programming (setting up graphics modes, drawing/plotting, opening borders, etc. In sum: Graphics stuff which in itself does not constitute a full "demo effect".)
Demo Programming - How do to certain demo effects specifically (Rasterbars, Tech-tech, plasmas, scrollers, etc...)
At least it appears to me that this distinction is quite clear cut and relatively easy to understand. Yeah?
-----
In general, it would be nice if someone had a look at the VIC page and cleaned it up a little. It still appears a bit weird to me. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting Lots of BitchingThe website is called 'Codebase' not 'Source dump'.
Jeez people calm down, dont get your knickers all twisted.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote:Jeez people calm down
I said that in a very calm way :)
Frantic, I'll gradually go through the stuff.
I haven't got too much time, just like you, but like we say in .NL: many hands make light work :) |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
I can not access codebase???
"No ACL setup yet! Denying access to everyone."
:(
Here is something from dokuwiki docs:
If you get “No ACL setup yet! Denying access to everyone.” then make sure that the text in the beginning of the file acl.auth.php reads acl.auth.php and not users.auth.php. .... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
yeah it seems to be borked for some time now :( |
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Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 722 |
Yeah, it went really down for a while with a simple "engineer borked it" page. Now it is half up with this ACL error. I hope the database backup is fairly recent.
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
argh, this needs to be fixed :(
ironicly this happens when I want to look something up ;_D
------------------------------------
http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Hello!
Just wanted to say that I hear ya!
I noticed that the site was fucked by some automatic spam bot script sucker the other day, and I made an attempt at restoring the site in its most recent form, but obviously something isn't quite right so I will give it a go as soon as possible. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do it today, and probably not tomorrow either.
The latest backup is unusually old this time, unfortunately... It is from 2009-01-07. If everything else fails, I'd probably be able to restore that backup, and then add the content that has been added after this point in time manually (because I do have a backup of the most recent *content* pages too).
EDIT:
I just tried to make one small change. Is there a slight chance that it works nicely for you guys now? |
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Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 722 |
Yes it works now. Cheers!
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
The internet is really full of wonderful things.. like spam bots etc :/. Great to see that it works again! |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Great to hear that it works again.
By the way, it seems as if the discussion plugin was somehow abused to hack the site, so I just ripped it out. This means - no discussion on Codebase at the moment.
Is that a feature that people would miss severely, so I should try to find some other discussion plugin, or should I just forget about the whole discussion issue? :)
Also, thank you everyone who contributes to codebase! It grows quite slowly, but I am happy to see that it IS actually growing, and that many different people have contributed.
Don't hesistate to add even more content! ;)
For example, I am sure that many people do have a lot of old textfiles lying around, describing how to do a lot of different things. (Did I hear groepaz mention a huge collection of text files some day?) Why not add that stuff to codebase? :)
//FTC |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
uh, that would be tons of work =P i have collected several hundred MB of docs =P |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
CodeBase has been down all day, wheres the best place to report this? Here? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
@Conjuror: Thanks for reporting. It seems to work just over here though. Did you get any sort of error messages? |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
"Server not found"
Firefox can't find the server at www.codebase64.org.
ping www.codebase64.org
Ping request could not find host www.codebase64.org. Please check the name and try again.
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Does it work for you (and others) now? |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
Ok this is strange, I connect to works network and access through their connection and it works. But still not from home.
This is the only site I've noticed a problem with.
I flushed my DNS cache but still have the same problem.
I have multiple tabs open in firefox and I've had a few crashes so when I restart the browser, it hits the site with a number of pages all at once. Could I been seen as some sort of DOS attack?
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yonx
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 31 |
uuh.. i also have this problem.. site worked 10 secs ago and now server cannot be found (?) |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
Glad I'm not the only one, feeling like less of a dill. |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
Update, I have it working.
I changed my routers dns entries to point to open dns and it worked. Tried putting them back to my ISP's DNS and it stopped working again.
Clearly a problem with my ISP's DNS entries for codebase.
BTW my ISP is internode in Australia.
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yonx
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 31 |
hehe, weird.. my isp is tele2 in sweden and it still doesnt work from here :) |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
Maybe because codebase was down briefly while our isps did an update of their entries. Likely be ok in 24 hrs.
Try: https://www.opendns.com/start/
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
@yanx: Codebase is located in the US. |
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yonx
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 31 |
@fräntik: you might want to consider to move it somewhere else, because today it's down once again :) |
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andym00
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 45 |
It's working fine (from Austria).. |
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yonx
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 31 |
weird.. usually when there is some kind of transatlantic fuckup sites like flickr.com and apple.com are affected as well.. but this seems to be a very local codebase64 problem :D |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
It is good to hear that you all visit codebase every day. ;)
@Yonk: I think you might consider some considerations. |
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yonx
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 31 |
@frantik: i considered making a small poll, and considering the answers i got it seems that i might be the only one in sweden who cant reach the damn site.. its so nice to be special! |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
For the record, the uptime of the Codebase64 server this month is at 99.7%. We had some downtime eleven days ago, but that was the last connectivity issue.
Please take into account various other problems your connection could have before screaming that a website is down. ISPs are notorious for having outdated DNS information, this is a common issue forever. The IP information for this server did change at the beginning of the month.
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
Works for me ever since I changed over to OpenDNS. |
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LOGAN
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: |
I hope codebase would have more source code, maybe even the same source for different assemblers (mainly tass, DASM, ACME and KickAss.)
It would also be cool to have some code 'modular'. like a main irc where beginners can 'plug in' various pieces of code and combine different things.
But more source in general could be a nice idea :) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Codebase is a repository for ideas, not cut'n'paste code. Whether labels use colons or not, or data is entered with .byte or dc.b doesn't matter. If you're pasting code verbatim into your own source instead of reading, understanding, and rewriting it, you're doing it wrong.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
codebase is meant to teach people to code on the c64, and not as a dumb mass of sources. also I dont find it a good idea for newbies to use code they have no idea what it does. |
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LOGAN
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: |
I't called codebase nonetheless, not codeschool or codeideas :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
codebase was my idea. so just ask me & trust my answer, what it was ment to be if in doubt. |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
It would be good to have an explanation of the code that is there.
Unfortunately I have used the FLI code without understanding it and its come back to bite me.
I read it in conjunction with the explanation of FLI but didn't understand how the 4x4 chunky code was working until someone explained it to me.
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
I agree with not adding too much working source codes to the codebase. This should define the difference between a new Commodore 64 coder and a new PC coder. PC coders (even many of us) use different libraries, code pieces etc. Because this is how the things became today. But we as c64 scene are proud to be a part of a different world where we know and understand (almost) everything about our hardware and code everything from scratch. If a newbie wants to be a part of it, he/she should walk the same way like we do. Otherwise nothing changes for us but they cannot have the same joy. |
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LOGAN
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: |
True, but that also means you are 15 years ahead :)
But I remember being proud when I managed to get text on the screen while playing a music. Come to think of it, I still am :)
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Some things you can just slap together, like music playing, loading, reading input.
But it quickly gets too application-specific to be useful. For example a sprite multiplexer usually ties into a raster interrupt system, but migrating it into a totally different interrupt system (once we move beyond simple tutorial multiplexers, which do nothing else than the sprites) would probably be so complicated that it's better to write at least the interrupt code from scratch. But what are more useful are the concepts & algorithms used. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quoting Skate
But we as c64 scene are proud to be a part of a different world where we know and understand (almost) everything about our hardware and code everything from scratch. If a newbie wants to be a part of it, he/she should walk the same way like we do.
The road I went was ripping every piece of usable code I could find in the computer magazines I had, and then i would try to patch that together to a demo. And after a few months I joined a group where the other coders would help out with code for setting up raster interrupts, drawing lines etc.
I enjoyed being able to actually make something which looked like a demo and as time went by I actually learned how most of the code worked and could do more stuff on my own.
But whatever, have fun up there on your high horses. |
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Ervin
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 14 |
I think there are some fundamental "libraries" or "routines" such as loader, cruncher, music player, etc. which IMHO are not expected to be re-created by every coder. (AFAIK there are very few coders out there whose music routine AND loader routine would be an "industry standard" at the same time, am I right?) But where is the border? If I use a piece of downloaded example code for raster stabilizing but then make my own raster trick, or I use an example 3D routine for point calculations but use my own filler - then am I a coder? :) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Using other people's code is good, it's one of the best ways to learn new things. That implies sitting down and understanding it though, not just pasting it.
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
Retyping (rather than copying and pasting) other people's code is a nice way to learn how to do stuff IME. It encourages you to consider the significance of every opcode, while (hopefully) guiding you along a good route instead of forcing you to find your way in the dark all by yourself. The retype-and-think method coupled with reading the VIC article was how I first understood how stable rasters could be produced for example.
Speaking of the VIC article, wouldn't it be nice to have it on the Wiki as well, instead of just as an off-site link? The more places it's on the better, I reckon. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
I want to find out if the guys that had connection issues a while ago - is it still a problem now?
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
It fine for me now.
Connection is so slow I can't stream radio6581 but thats another issue.
Cheers
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:Using other people's code is good, it's one of the best ways to learn new things. That implies sitting down and understanding it though, not just pasting it.
that very much sums it up (and says in other words what skate said). i am also very much against cut and paste coders who just throw together other peoples code and dont have the slightest clue about it.
spoonfeeding people too much source just leads to things like this . if you dont even want to learn, go away. tis not for you. |
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plagueis
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48 |
As a relatively new coder (I've been going for 2 years now) on the c64 I can certainly attest to what methods work best for me and my mind, and I can venture a guess on what would be healthier for other novice coders...or at least the vast majority.
What Skate and Groepaz said couldn't be more correct. In the beginning, with the absolute basics, looking at source can be of benefit. But I'm speaking of the absolute basics, such as clearing the screen, simple looping, and changing the border colors, etc. After one reaches the level of proficiency of making simple intros, showing character sets on the screen, raster bars...then you ought to be able to code an effect after someone gives you a basic procedural algorithm and nothing more. Your own knowledge of the opcodes ought to suffice to fill in the rest, and you can optimize your code later. It took me a bit of difficult uphill climbing to reach this point, but the reward is worth it in the end and I think that's a big part of what the demoscene is (should be) about.
Often it takes me longer to analyze a 2000 line source and understand all its functionality than it would to just think up my own implementation and code it up from scratch. Not only would I learn more from that, but there's a possibility I could come up with new tricks and my own unique approach to the effect...or a completely new effect.
The most valuable document on the Codebase is Puterman's demo coding tutorial. It covers everything a beginner should know, first by being very verbose about how to code demo basics, then it moves on to discuss the more difficult routines in a more topical manner, expecting the coder to fill in the rest using his brain. I've heard it's left some people wanting more at that point. However, I think the spoon is removed from the novice's mouth at just the right place in that document. If you can't code those effects based on the descriptions given, you shouldn't be messing with them yet.
I'm at the point now where i want to know about more advanced techniques, but I've found it more valuable to go back in the CSDb archives and mirror threads regarding techniques such as VSP, FPP Plasma, etc. and save them to my HDD for personal reference. I have found discussions between HCL, Oswald, Jackasser, Graham, etc to be more valuable than huge sources on the Codebase due to the fact that they don't spoil all my fun by giving away the goodies line by line. They talk about the steps required to pull off effects and a little bit is discussed about the timing, but not enough to spoil my own research, just enough to stimulate me in the right direction. In my opinion we need more of that in the Wiki. I will say though, that now that I've gotten 2 years of VIC/6510 coding under my belt, I can look at source and understand it much faster than I could a year ago. But I can safely say, it's not the best route for a c64 coding beginner. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Hmmm...I'm getting a weird error when posting a new article on Codebase:
Quote:Error 403
We're sorry, but we could not fulfill your request for /doku.php on this server.
Your Internet Protocol address is listed on a blacklist of addresses involved in malicious or illegal activity. See the listing below for more details on specific blacklists and removal procedures.
Your technical support key is: xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx
You can use this key to fix this problem yourself.
If you are unable to fix the problem yourself, please contact and be sure to provide the technical support key shown above.
WTF? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Thanks for reporting. I will look into it.
//FTC |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I finally got some time to fix this issue and bring order back to codebase64. Sorry for the delay. The problem that scout experienced (which also occurred to me! -- the admin of the site!) turned out to be caused by a too picky spam prevention plugin. I looked angrily at that plugin and told it who is in charge of that site!!
The plugin started crying and asked me if there was anything he could do for me to save his life. I walked east, east again, then west, searched the area, discovered a door behind a shrubbery, entered it, found a magic kingdom, got access to the life force of Optimus Prime, head of the Transformers. As a result, some stuff got added to codebase: Scout's circle routine (mentioned in some other recent thread here on CSDb) and the missing articles in the Mathematics in Assembly article series by Krill (most of which were kindly supplied/transcribed by j0x).
I also updated that wiki system to the latest version.
http://codebase64.org
Enjoy!
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
great news :) |
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Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 722 |
Wohoo :) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Excellent.
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Would it be possible to add pictures to Codebase?
Sometimes this is so much more explaining than 1000 lines of code... |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
It is already possible to add pictures. Press the "Edit this page" button, and then, when you are in edit mode, press the icon in the toolbar that looks like a framed painting to upload a picture. When the picture is uploaded, just click on it in the list of files (I think it is auto-selected after upload) and the picture will be added to the page.
For an example of one of the few pages that uses images, see this one:
http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:speedcode |
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Ventura
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2006
Posts: 67 |
Quote: Quote:Using other people's code is good, it's one of the best ways to learn new things. That implies sitting down and understanding it though, not just pasting it.
that very much sums it up (and says in other words what skate said). i am also very much against cut and paste coders who just throw together other peoples code and dont have the slightest clue about it.
spoonfeeding people too much source just leads to things like this . if you dont even want to learn, go away. tis not for you.
Excuse me for a late response, i clicked that link: Omfg!. Gee, thanks Groepaz!.
Nevermind, do go on... |
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encore
Registered: Aug 2010
Posts: 67 |
Just wanted to notify that codebase has been down all day (yay for google cache!) |
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McKrackeN
Registered: Feb 2011
Posts: 20 |
Please tell me that someone has a backup of all the information!!! :( |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
No worries, just some issues that will be fixed shortly.
PS - We always keep backups of the servers, no worries there either.
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Yes.. sorry for the inconvenience. It will be up again shortly. The data is backed up, as Moloch says, in several places even.
...but, Moloch: Did you see my emails? |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
seems to be up again. now you can read all the tutorials there and take the first place in the top demos list with your hyper super duper ultimate mega demo project. ;) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Yep, it is now up again and the wiki system is also upgraded to the latest version. Enjoy! |
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McKrackeN
Registered: Feb 2011
Posts: 20 |
Great!! I'm glad to read that! :D |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
Quoting FranticMoloch: Did you see my emails?
I got one email, is there more? I'll check again today and see if anything else is there.
You can always send a message here, I'm here two or three times a day.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
The more I browse through Codebase, the more I miss proper explanations of the principle behind routines.
Having some commented, or, god forbid, raw sources is nice, but it is so freakin' time consuming to plough through them to understand what happens.
May I invite people to write small descriptions of their routines?
Example for, say, a DYCP in hires bitmap:
- FONT: 64 char font, 75x pixels per char
- DATA: 256 bytes of sine data in $00 - $2b range
- TEXT: plain screencode text, end code = @ ($00)
- TABX: table of screen addresses based on X-axis
- TABY: table of screen addresses based on X-axis and sine offset (DATA)
Get a letter from TEXT, fetch corresponding char from FONT and plot in memory calculated from TABX en TABY.
{source here}
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bepp
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 265 |
What Mace said! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
yep. I dont like that kind of sourcedumping in there either. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
Sometimes understanding the theory behind something is far more important than having the code. I'd love to see a section explaining the math and timing behind different effects. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Special sections? Have such explanations right with the routines, I'd say. It's a wiki so - contribute! :)
Of course pasting source into a page is much easier than explaining it but thats community work as well, no?
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
I agree that there's a need for more explainations, but at least it's a lot better than in the old days where we had to guess how routines worked by using an mc-mon. Source code is usually confusing at first, but a lot can be learned from playing around with it. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Of course it is better with high quality material (well explained code) than low quality material (cut/pasted code), but I have to agree with some ppl here.. It is still better than nothing at all and I have surely been helped by the mere availability of already written code a number of times, even though the code wasn't that well commented (the very same point that Cruzer made in the previous post).
...but of course, I am keeping an eye on this. If people get too lazy (yes, there may have been some indications in that direction lately) then I will have to do something about it. Yet I doubt that zillions of people would start to write extremely well written in-depth articles just because I kick some lazy guys in the butt for pasting too trashy stuff. :)
So.. while we are at it. What about writing some nice articles a la C= Hacking and publish them on codebase? :) If someone has suggestions on what we can do to motivate people to actually do this, then let me know. (No, I don't have any money. ;)
In fact, at least in a few cases it seems that sucky articles on codebase has trigged people to try to write better ones. Perhaps there is a use of bad information in that sense. ;)
//FTC |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 545 |
Uhm... I've seen cases where some code might be considered... ineffective or maybee even plain wrong. But still I would have reservations towards going in and messing with stuff someone else has signed... Hell I might be wrong, then I'd look like a total ass too 8-D |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
@Frantic: how about approaching a lot of different great coders and asking them for just 1 subject/article. Nothing more, just 1. It might get you somewhere. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I've done that already. New/better strategies are needed. :) ...but one could always try again, of course.
Anyway.. Another starting point could be to identify what sort of information people actually want/need most, that they do not feel that they can find on Codebase (or elsewhere) already. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
so, there could be a wanted section on codebase. the problem with that is, that if ppl wanting info, and ppl willing to add articles will find that page :) |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
Agree with Oswald and others..
Perhaps some kind of rating on the information on codebase would be useful. I sometimes think i should add or improve some article on codebase, but since i don't know if anyone has interest in that particular topic, my inspiration often fails..
If there was the possibility to mark pages with "don't understand this article" or "i need this urgently", "please explain better" or something, then people who has the knowledge about it may find it more urgent to improve the article. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Some sort of system for rating and commenting on page contents would be nice indeed. I had a look now on available plugins, because one would expect plugins like that to exist. I tried a bunch of plugins now but unfortunately none of them really provided the functionality of rating pages as such. This surprises me since one would think that this would be a commonly requested feature on wikis. It is not necessarily extremely complicated to write your own dokuwiki plugins but I don't have the time to do it right now. If someone else feels that they have the skills required to do something like this, please let me know. In any case, I will think about this a little more, and then see what I can do about it. I agree that some well chosen improvements along those lines could make a huge benefit for the wiki as a whole.
EDIT: Just realized that I can probably use some more general php script for voting, with a little customization, even though there does not seem to be any specific "vote 15 for this page" plugin available for dokuwiki. |
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Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 722 |
Doesn't matter if an article is signed, it is a wiki. It is meant to be edited by many people. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
I think a simple article request page would create more activity, than voting. No one will vote, and no one will care. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Oswald: There IS a page for requests: http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=wishlist
Nobody really uses it though. I added a note about the wish list page on the front page of the wiki now to encourage people to use it.
You got a point concerning the voting. It is indeed not clear that a lot of people would start to contribute more to the wiki just because there are votes on this and that article which state that "this is a bad article" or such. HCL's suggestion of more content-loaded statements (rather than number-votes) is perhaps a key here a way to leave feedback rather than just some general voting. Perhaps I should look into re-enabling the discussion plugin again. Last time I tried it it ended up being exploited by "hackers"/spammers.. Perhaps some bugs are fixed by now..
That being said, I don't see any reason to panic regarding the state of Codebase64. Fact is that a lot of people seem to find it very useful, even though everything in this world can of course always get better.. :) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Frantic: is there some special pages as mediawiki provides them? can the "trace" be disabled? :)
Another approach in adding to the content would be to add selected articles from transactor, magic disk and others to the mags section - or at least list them more direct than: "DL it all here and see for yourself" :).
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
@C0: Sorry.. didn't understand your question. Can you rephrase?
Regarding mag articles as a source for content I think that is a good idea. Many mag articles are quite short and perhaps not that up to date though... but still. There is this other wiki which is focusing on transcribing old c64 mag articles. If someone has the time to dive into that to find those articles that are relevant for codebase64, that would be very nice. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Which one of them? :)
When browsing through codebase a "Trace" of recently visited pages is building up. E.g. "Trace: » start » base » vic » links ". IMHO thats just annoying :)
As for "Special Pages" I of course mean things such as "recent changes" which I saw, but I seem to miss pages such as "All Pages", "Missing Pages" and such?
As for transcribing - even when not caring much about an actual transcription a rip-off from a scanned PDF with the article excerpted and just a short note often helps perfectly.
Shameless ego-xample:
http://rr.c64.org/wiki/File:The_Transactor_Vol09_01_1988_Sep_Wa..
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Yo.. Trace can be disabled easily. I am not completely in love with that function either, but on the other hand I've started to use it just because it is there. :)
Regarding mags, it seems that I read your previous post too quickly. I thought you referred to disk mags, but now I see that you refer to printed mags.. I guess one could add PDF's then, yep.. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
I hope my few lines added to codebase are OK and useful. I assume Ninja has no objections, as his original source was published anyways.
Just have a look at http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=the_ninja-method:nmis_and_dis.. and maybe place it somewhere else in the tree - I just thought it's a very intelligent stable-do-something-approach - so it'll fit into jackasser's series. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
Quote: I hope my few lines added to codebase are OK and useful. I assume Ninja has no objections, as his original source was published anyways.
Just have a look at http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=the_ninja-method:nmis_and_dis.. and maybe place it somewhere else in the tree - I just thought it's a very intelligent stable-do-something-approach - so it'll fit into jackasser's series.
Just wanted to mention an additional advantage of using NMI-pages: If you can loose one cycle more you can easily have one extra page (with a jitter of 0-8 cycles) and thus automagically handle different CIA versions without detection. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Stoff: Thanks for the contribution. Didn't have time to check in detail right now, but according to my brief glance now it seems to be stuff of the good kind. Do not feel hesitant to make the changes that you propose. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
indeed, great article by Stoff, the kind of I'd like to see more often. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Thanks for all the flowers. It indeed helps a lot if you code stuff you want to explain yourself. I mean, I had Ninjas source, but I restarted from scratch - it was also my first own "half variance delay" routine in there (3 A4-pages of sick and mostly wrong calculations ...).
I guess one has to turn 30 to feel the fun again, just the way it was with 15 years ...
@Jackasser: I've tried a lot to loose another cycle - but failed. How would you get 8 cycles of jitter? |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Stoff: Hey, you succeeded, good news :) Can you add the mag in which my original article can be found to the codebase entry? I forgot which it was.
In general: After the initial 2x2-routine, Oswald and I also played with 4x4-versions, but the gain in speed is _much_ less noticable, of course. We considered that those 8 pages can usually be used for something different which will please the demo-watcher more. So, in practice, we hardly use it. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
@Ninja: Sorry, I downloaded it from the-dreams.de, like you suggested. I don't know where you published it in the first place.
But I have to object just a little: those 8 pages are not wasted at all. It's less than $20 bytes for the nmi-routines, so stuffing it with other data ain't no problem... and compared to an auxiliary timer routine, which fires the irq in cycle 0 - we have a gain of around 44 cycles each interrupt. That's more than 1000cycles more each frame. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Stoff: Hey, you succeeded, good news :) Can you add the mag in which my original article can be found to the codebase entry? I forgot which it was.
In general: After the initial 2x2-routine, Oswald and I also played with 4x4-versions, but the gain in speed is _much_ less noticable, of course. We considered that those 8 pages can usually be used for something different which will please the demo-watcher more. So, in practice, we hardly use it.
all credits goes to Ninja ofcourse, I'm just an end user of these routines :) |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Stoff: Hehe, forgot about the online-version. Could you link to that?
After all, it's your choice if you want the 5% extra. My experience is that the memory can also be spent on some additional GFX or such (check Salute) which might add more to the part than the speedup. If you have those pages free anyhow, sure go for it. For me, though, with most effects having unrolled code and huge tables, 8 pages is quite a lot. YMMV. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
... done - I just linked the articles-page. btw. it was Vandalism News #43 (stated on that articles-page).
About the 8 pages - what I mean is: you normally need some data-tables with your unrolled loops. Most of them do not need to be "a full page", but they are, just to not loose cycles for page boundary crossings. That's where some embedding of the routines might take place ;) Just stay tuned, I'm coding. It's been some time since the last Neoplasia-release of any kind ...
Another question just came to my mind while re-reading my article. My calculations about starting the timers - as a trained eye might already have noticed - add/subtract one cycle. This value just came from testing/trial and crash. But now I have an idea in mind: may it just be that an Interrupt is the only operation that happens in a 6510, which is not able to prefetch the next opcode? So this "one cycle earlier" starting of the NMI-timer and the "one additional cycle more delay" to the jitter-timer might be just that: the NMI actually needs another cycle for "1st command prefetch"? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Thanks again for your efforts! Also thanks to HCL for adding some info as well! All in all a good initiative that more people should follow! |
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bepp
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 265 |
On my wishlist is: more pictures... A simple screenshot next to an effect/routine would be very informative for somebody who doesn't speak the lingo but who likes to get a better understanding :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
Quote: Thanks for all the flowers. It indeed helps a lot if you code stuff you want to explain yourself. I mean, I had Ninjas source, but I restarted from scratch - it was also my first own "half variance delay" routine in there (3 A4-pages of sick and mostly wrong calculations ...).
I guess one has to turn 30 to feel the fun again, just the way it was with 15 years ...
@Jackasser: I've tried a lot to loose another cycle - but failed. How would you get 8 cycles of jitter?
What I mean is that with the one CIA you'd get 0..6 cycles of jitter and with the other CIA you'd get 1..7. I.e. treat the different CIA models as just one more cycle of jitter to take care of.
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
@Bepp: Good point! I added hints and notes about adding pictures here and there in order to encourage people to add more (pedagogically motivated) pictures. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Quoting Frantic(pedagogically motivated) pictures.
Goatse and lolcats in 3... 2... |
