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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Was VSP and/or AGSP ever used in any commercial games?
I read that the recently released "Scramble 2010" preview was using VSP for the scrolling.
That made me wonder if any of the commercial games back in the day used such techniques?
Considering that it causes crashes on some C64s I think that it wouldn't have made it past QA, but maybe testing wasn't all that thorough back then...
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
"another world" used it... and the game constantly saves its status to disk in the background, so you can continue from where you have been when it crashed =P |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Creatures and Mayhem in monsterland as well as Phobia used VSP. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
fred's back, mythos, and some car game used agsp. |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Interesting, for example the Apex games are pretty "high profile" games. Maybe the percentage of VSP-crashing computers was so small that they could ignore those.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
At the time, nobody was really aware of VSP causing crashes. The rather lovely-looking Touchlight was cancelled because the AGSP scrolling wouldn't work on everything, though. |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 323 |
Quote: I read that the recently released "Scramble 2010" preview was using VSP for the scrolling.
That made me wonder if any of the commercial games back in the day used such techniques?
Considering that it causes crashes on some C64s I think that it wouldn't have made it past QA, but maybe testing wasn't all that thorough back then...
In regards to "Scramble 2010", I was unable to get it
to work in VICE 2.1 (whatever i did - must be just me?) but the code+scrolling worked perfectly on my C128-D in 64 mode.
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> Adam/Usagi! <
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: In regards to "Scramble 2010", I was unable to get it
to work in VICE 2.1 (whatever i did - must be just me?) but the code+scrolling worked perfectly on my C128-D in 64 mode.
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> Adam/Usagi! <
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turn true drive emu on. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
what btw is the smallest method to check for true-drive in code? |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
My C64 has never crashed due to a VSP - perhaps it dont have this bug ? i dont know. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3196 |
Quote: what btw is the smallest method to check for true-drive in code?
probably a bit empiric, but sending an UI and then reading error msg
TDE on:
73,cbm dos v2.6 1541,00,00
TDE off and VTD on:
73,virtual drive emulation v2.2,00,00
or
73,vice fs driver v2.0,00,00
(depending if a d64 is mounted or using directly the file system)
TDE off and VTD off:
?device not present
dunno about other emulators =) |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
Quote: turn true drive emu on.
OT, but that got to be the c64scene's answer to "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: OT, but that got to be the c64scene's answer to "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"...
yeah. designwise vice sucks at this point like bloody fucking hell. since when do programs change their own options without explicitly asked by the user? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quote: yeah. designwise vice sucks at this point like bloody fucking hell. since when do programs change their own options without explicitly asked by the user?
IT's have been pain in the ass for ages, i wonder why auto tde off-switching wasn't disabled. |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:dunno about other emulators =)
the other emulators donot have any virtual drive crap and just always use "true drive emulation". |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Quote: probably a bit empiric, but sending an UI and then reading error msg
TDE on:
73,cbm dos v2.6 1541,00,00
TDE off and VTD on:
73,virtual drive emulation v2.2,00,00
or
73,vice fs driver v2.0,00,00
(depending if a d64 is mounted or using directly the file system)
TDE off and VTD off:
?device not present
dunno about other emulators =)
The problem is that UI resets the drive and if you access the bus during drive reset a 1541 will lock up the C64.
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101 |
Quote: Quote:dunno about other emulators =)
the other emulators donot have any virtual drive crap and just always use "true drive emulation".
yes but those other crappy emulators do not support cartridges (so they load super slow), also they only run on windows.
hardly an alternative |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
There's an experimental VICE branch that uses virtual DMA to load PRGs, instead of mounting the virtual filesystem:
http://vice-emu.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/vice-emu/branches/ch..
This effectively makes it work like starting PRGs over codenet, and it leaves TDE on. Seemed to work fine when I tested it, but I don't know if it'll get into 2.2. I think the main issue is that it'll have to be implemented into each emulator, not just x64.
Maybe someone is motivated enough to register a feature request for DMA based PRG loading that we all can vote for?
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
you may as well script it to insert PRG as monitor load command OR in fact create whole mem-images prior to x64 launch... |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Actually I'm trying to incorporate my .d64 creator into vice to support .prg's by generating a temporary .d64 with the .prg. But can't get the darn Vice to compile.. bah. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
When VICE autoloads a D64, it turns off TDE as it drags in the first file; surely that's all it needs to do with dragged and dropped PRG files as well, turn off TDE, load the file and switch it back on again (with the option still in place of disabling TDE to use the host machine's file system if anyone is working that way)? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
<nojoopa> "There's an experimental VICE branch that uses virtual DMA to load PRGs [...] " -> done, in trunk already.
<nojoopa> "Actually I'm trying to incorporate my .d64 creator into vice to support .prg's by generating a temporary .d64" -> done, in trunk already
<nojoopa> "[...] dragged and dropped PRG files as well, turn off TDE, load the file and switch it back on again [...]" -> done (I think), in trunk already
:) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
wut. First time I try messing with VICE to get something done and it's already too late. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUU! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
nojoopa suggested that you should look into fixing inline graphic data changes :D |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Cool, as long as it defaults to TDE enabled for the n00bs that'll be spot on! =-) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Vice is an idiot.
When it gets a D64 dropped, it should just turn real drive on, when it see a prg being dropped, turn off.
Make it transparent, dont have the user interfere in anything. bah :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Vice is an idiot.
When it gets a D64 dropped, it should just turn real drive on, when it see a prg being dropped, turn off.
Make it transparent, dont have the user interfere in anything. bah :)
And how will that make Panta Rhei work?
As I see it:
1) Drops a D64. Attach it.
2) Drops a PRG. Create a D64 on the fly and attach it.
TDE always on.
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
just a small comment on Jackassers approach:
technically the best but why TDE for single files anyway?
Just eats host CPU.
I like the idea of load/save to hosts hd from vice monitor.
But the JAs post will sure be best as default setting |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: just a small comment on Jackassers approach:
technically the best but why TDE for single files anyway?
Just eats host CPU.
I like the idea of load/save to hosts hd from vice monitor.
But the JAs post will sure be best as default setting
Panta Rhei f.e. will fail and only show hidden parts. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: just a small comment on Jackassers approach:
technically the best but why TDE for single files anyway?
Just eats host CPU.
I like the idea of load/save to hosts hd from vice monitor.
But the JAs post will sure be best as default setting
You can still ofcourse load and save files to hosts hd using the monitor. It would simply read / write directly to the memory using device 0 as normal. It has nothing to do with it.
What we disable would be the feature to load/save files to the hosts HD using device 8.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: And how will that make Panta Rhei work?
As I see it:
1) Drops a D64. Attach it.
2) Drops a PRG. Create a D64 on the fly and attach it.
TDE always on.
thats just the illogical utter stupid way TDE works on vice. intruding your brains ;)
user settings should be never changed/toggled/played with to achieve something by a program. its the horror. one of the main reasons developers go to hell.
a) TDE on
a1) Drops a D64. Attach it. load wit TDE
a2) Drops a PRG. Create a D64 on the fly and attach it. load wit TDE
b) TDE off
a1) Drops a D64. Attach it. load without TDE
a2) load without TDE |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
Yeah!! and don't you ever f**king change my *settings* !!! :EEEEEE |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
There's no need to create a D64 on the fly when loading prg files. Just shuffle the bytes into $0801-$xxxx, update the zp pointers, and leave device 8 as a 1541 with no disk in the drive. This is more or less identical to loading files over codenet, or loading from tape. The vice-filedma branch I pasted earlier implements this. Try it out.
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Amazing how such a simple issue seems to be longwinded in winvice to keep a particular setting intact |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Is there some additional subtlety of updating the kernal state in addition to the program start/end ZP regs, that led VICE to do it like that?
I do remember some programs failing on CCS64 when using the "fast" load option, as opposed to loading them the slow way. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Yes, some programs make assumptions about the state of zeropage, etc. Those apps will just have to be put on a D64 instead. The new VICE betas automatically enable warp mode when autostarting, instead of doing fake 1541 loading. It takes another second to start, but compatibility is near 100%. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
not that its hard to setup the zeropage correctly. eg with the mmcr loader a onefiler cant tell wether it was loaded from disk using kernal or simply dumped into memory :) i'm sure it could be done in vice too =P
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Yes, it's easy for most programs, but gets hairy once you start loading into zeropage, IO registers, and so on. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
on the real thing... yes. (i dont support that in mmcr either, but it really doesnt matter much) in emu it shouldnt make a big difference though :) (except autostart techniques, which will not work with DMAing data into memory) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Right - maybe we're both arguing for the same thing: doing the absolute minimum to load a prg, instead of trying to simulate the whole process with virtual devices, as that's better left for D64s and true drive emulation anyway.
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