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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Taming the 6510
I've been asked to do a 5-minute TED session next month in front of the whole company (~150 people), and I thought I would do it on ways to program ML for the c64 throughout the years.
Starting out with basic (peek & poke), using the cartridge monitor, turbo assembler, cross developing using 2 connected c64s, cross developing using another machine connected to a c64, coding everything on a pc using Vice and finally ending with KickAss (as my firm is very Java oriented that last one will probably take very well).
Now, am I forgetting something? Does anybody know if such a list is already present somewhere? Are there better terms that I could use (somehow I feel I used to know these things by different names)?
Thanks in advance. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Before cartridge monitor, a lot of people used monitors like SMON. Oh, and don't forget the mighty POKEmon ;) |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
@TDJ: Don't forget to show $d419-$d41a trick. It's unique y'know. :) |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 437 |
@Skate: What's the trick? Dutch Breeze finger one? ;-) |
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doynax
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 212 |
So how was the original C64 software, such as the Kernal and 1541 ROMs, developed? Did Commodore use a cross-assembler on a minicomputer or could the PET handle it? |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
is it a la TED or is it actually TED, and if yes, will it be recorded? :) |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424 |
Quote: So how was the original C64 software, such as the Kernal and 1541 ROMs, developed? Did Commodore use a cross-assembler on a minicomputer or could the PET handle it?
But then how was the PET ROM developed? At some point the bootstrapping tool was a piece of paper and a pencil... |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Chuck Norris kicked the first computer into life, that's why it's called "boot-ing".. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
@Werner: thanks, SMON was one of those things that I was looking for. And I might even borrow your POKEmon joke ;)
@Skate: I'm not going into so much detail, and I sure as hell am not going to finger my c64 in front of my boss :Z
@Celtic: yes, it will be a real TED session, and yes, it will be videotaped, but for internal use only. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Not sure if you're aware of PDS (Programmers Development System) but it was one of the most popular cross dev systems at the time. If a software house didn't make their own they were probably using PDS. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
@JCB: I wasn't aware of it, but it's something I'll definitely look into, thanks. |
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daison
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 90 |
Quoting Skate@TDJ: Don't forget to show $d419-$d41a trick. It's unique y'know. :)
Now I'm curious... what is it? |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I think the trick is to lick your finger and rub one of the joystick ports. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
I hope that the recording will find itself online somewhere for us c64 folks to view.
I hope you also take some time to talk about the amazing developments in graphical formats that the c64 has seen over the years, from hires and multicolour to fli, ifli and well nufli nowadays.
looking forward to it. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I hope that the recording will find itself online somewhere for us c64 folks to view.
I hope you also take some time to talk about the amazing developments in graphical formats that the c64 has seen over the years, from hires and multicolour to fli, ifli and well nufli nowadays.
looking forward to it.
Like I've stated before: I've only got 5 minutes (3.5 actually as I also want to show my audience the result of cross-developing) so there is really no time to dive into other stuff.
Also, I don't really think they care one bit about c64 graphic formats ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I finished my TED talk about an hour ago, and even with me being a bit under the weather, and being a bit nervous as well (full house, about 80 people there) it was a huge success. It amazed me how many people knew what the 6510 is, and what mnemonics are. Also, the respect *we* as demo creators have amongst technical people is huge.
I couldn't do it in 5 minutes though, so I had it changed to 12. Unfortunately it meant I was the closing act (after 17 other talks) but I think that after finishing with Trans*form (as an example of a c64 program completely made on a pc) the applause was the biggest of the whole evening :)
BTW, it was videotaped, so I'll try to see if I can get ahold of it, and if it's any good, I'll upload it somewhere (TDD) for those interested. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
looking forward. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Actually, I was not joking. POKEmon is on the VDC d64 of Risen from Oblivion :) |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 545 |
MOS65XX is da shiz! gratz! |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
TurboAssembler was the go for a long time, but the problem was the assembler using ~half of the memory and your source code also using up ram. That problem was later solved by size-optimizing the assembler, or using memory extentions for the assembler and source code. I think it was TronMon by Tron/FLT who developed such a system where you could use more or less the whole memory for your demo effects and the rest was kept in ram extention. |
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Slammer
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 416 |
One of the lesser known approaches was the Einstein Assembler. It was a two computer system where you developed your code on Amiga (giving faster assemble times and solving the memory problem) and then transferred it to the C64.
One of the smart features was the monitor switching system. When programming the amiga signal was displayed on the monitor, but when you assembled the code and transferred it to the c64, it automatically switched to the C64 picture so you only needed one monitor.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
I was using VDC asm in the second half of the nineties. Turbo Assembler running on a c128d, can compile (at 2mhz) code into the VDC chip's 64k ram, then use a little routine to swap the 2 64k's, and you can use (almost) full 64k. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Very useful info guys, too bad you come up with it the day *after* I had my talk ;)
Fortunately I covered most of these solutions, although it would have been cool to know about the details. |
