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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Does Interlace really suck ?
Back in 96 IFLI was all the hype, nobody really cared about the flickering if the picture was pixeled with a good technique.
Back in 96 Multicolor sized pixels were considered nice and not blocky, hires wasnt so overhyped.
and I think the shifting viewpoint to a great extent boils down to the wide used emulators. Everyone uses emulators today, and yes, interlace looks like shit in them, and multicolor pixels looks like huge square blocks in them.
Everyone should take some time and check the best laced pictures on a real thing with a real TV, and check multicolor / hires difference. I remember back in the time thinking that hires is actually to HIGH resolution, as a normal TV can hardly display such a pixels.
The lesson is: Interlace is only a flickering nightmare if not watched on TV, and multicolor pix has ugly big pixels only if not watched on a TV. |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote:
Do i have to repeat myself? I have a personal *opinion*, appart from technical/theoretical agruments (which i on the other hand agree on). I like one thing better than the other, even though it might be less correct in some aspects.
My bad, i didn't quote correctly! ;-) I wasn't reacting to the "i like this better" sentence but just to the one afterwards about a blended screenshot representing the original more correctly just because it only has 16 colors!
Quote:
Try lying with my girlfriend.. You're just so good at applying a truth to something totally unrelated. Lying with screenshots is mostly harmless to everybody, though i might be totally mistaken there ;).
Well, *you* started the "lying" analogy! ;-)
Tch: Thanks for that bit of information! ;-)
Oswald:
Quote:
call me a medium, but I can distuingish the individual pixels on the real machine while watching a laced pic. :D
Well - i can, too! It's just that they're Multicolor pixels, not hires! ;-)
Quote:
Checkerboard patterns are ofcourse out of this question, but I know whats in the memory behind them. The rest of the structures clearly DOES NOT BLEND on the real thing as the examples Deekay have posted.
Well - d'oh! It's interlace, and it's SUPPOSED to blend! Besides: On the real thing, you most certainly don't have rastering either, so what's your point?
However, you *do* see the horizontal blue lines on the original from the cropping of the Katon picture above - and NOT the pattern from the rastered version!... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Dk, ok. this is a subjective matter, I prefer "rasterized" version, and close it here :) |
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Hydrogen
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 23 |
I think Ifli is a very good drawing mode.You can get a lot of colour blends.Its very vivid, you can make pictures that really get of the screen.Its so good having the opportunity to make pictures that we cant imagine to see at C64 before 1990.As the graphic designers her know it's very hard to draw with ifli.To make it look good takes heavy effort.But when its done well you can't get enough of watching a ifli picture.I personally don't get too tired of flickering effect when its not very obvious.Its a matter of pleasure.I think a Picture which is drawn with i-fli with effort looks better and vivid.But only when it's done well and without any plagiarism,whichever Picture I can watch them with enthusiasm.This is where everybody here has the same idea.
When it comes to easy converting of a i-fli Picture, when your intentions are bad you can always on every mode can plagiarise.I-fli is maybe easy to convert but it is possible to make convert on other graphic modes, whichever..And with good executed fixes convert pictures can hardly differ from the hand-pixelled ones.There should be workstages.But many workstages I have seen can be obtained by erasing backwards.if we, c64 users , have started to prejudice some pixel drawing methods because they can easily be converted then we should look for riggings at many pixel drawings at amiga and pc until now.Because to convert at them is easier and insignificant.There is no end to this paranoia.People have to be honest at some point.I think its a problem how we can get there, I-fli u-fli multi colour or fli using is not the solution.Its the only way to absolve from paranoia.
When it comes to the advantage of ifli at compos, no compo can be totally just about it.And the ones who join compos at some point have to agree with those terms.There can be great quality difference between a "Fli" and a Bitmap Picture.Many observers don't know about it or neverminds the facts.To avoid the advantege of I-fli at compos not at breakpoints parties but at c64 parties pictures can be shown at great sized tvs.So people can have an idea about it.I for myself never liked the graphichs which are reflected on curtains:)
Regards. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
I think it would be a fair idea to have separate gfx-compos on parties, one for interlaced gfx and one for non-interlaced. Sadly there usually aren't entries enough though..
I like interlace myself, but at the same time flickering makes me mad. So, do it well or not at all. (Oups, gotta check my own interlaced pictures there.. :). |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
HCL, I dont think that makes much sense. At the end what really counts is not the screenmode, but the overall composition and how good the picture ITSELF is, and not the mode.
Sander / Valsary have prooved this by doing FLI like koalas in the end of the 90s.
Here's a speccy example that you can make nice stuff even in sucky modes:
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
and another:
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
voting on parties was always a hot item for long discussions on forums.
on big parties like breakpoint were a lot of people just are pc freaks with a lack of knowledge about the c64 scene and about graphics modes you can imagine that they will vote for the best looking graphics on the bigscreen. and then there are people just vote for friends and the big names....
all in all, the compos never seemed to be a fairplay thing.
it's just a matter of taste and if you are a coder then you will get respect from other coders, when you're a good graphician you probably will get the respect you deserve from other graphicians.
i like the idea of hcl to have separate compos.
even when there aren't so many entries you could do it like that way or you must place an info screen for each entry.
the speccy pix just rule. last time i found somewere a conversion of a speccy pictureshow to the nokia 6600.
one could say these are blocky pictures but they're just so colorful! |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Quote:yeah, I remember the annoying interlaces in deus ex machina aswell, ugh...
Which is one of the things which annoy me about the demo.
Quote:Dk, ok. this is a subjective matter, I prefer "rasterized" version, and close it here :)
Yes, it would be cool if the C64 could display them aswell. But it can't. What's next? Amiga screenshots for C64 demos, like in the good old times where they put Amiga shots on C64 game covers? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Graham, nor the blended nor the rasterized "screenshots" are like the original. Both of them are cheating. I prefer the rasterized ones, you prefer the blended ones, end of story. |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Okay, Oswald, Graham: thread ended, unlike with most arguments on the web we actually reached a consensus that everybody can live with! ;-)
To end this i'd like to post my personal favourites in Speccy-Pictures. I dunno who the guy is, but i assume it's from the same person looking at the style. These two pictures are nothing short of amazing, doing this so colorful in a 2-color 8x8 char-raster _without_ seeing any blocky-ness is just awesome. Since the Speccy palette is the same as the C128 VDC one (except for that dark yellow, which does seem to come out differently depending if you connected your monitor using TTL-RGB or Scart-iRGB!) i can really confirm the colors are a pain to work with, because they're so damn oversaturated you can't do proper shading.
I actually wanted to have a speccy slideshow in Risen from Oblivion, but I couldn't "ignite" Graham for the idea! ;-) The twice-as-high chars of the VDC would've created a problem with the aspect ratio, but i planned on using the scrolling-crunching used here to compensate:
400
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