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Forums > C64 Pixeling > Does Interlace really suck ?
2006-05-03 18:32
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5026
Does Interlace really suck ?

Back in 96 IFLI was all the hype, nobody really cared about the flickering if the picture was pixeled with a good technique.

Back in 96 Multicolor sized pixels were considered nice and not blocky, hires wasnt so overhyped.

and I think the shifting viewpoint to a great extent boils down to the wide used emulators. Everyone uses emulators today, and yes, interlace looks like shit in them, and multicolor pixels looks like huge square blocks in them.

Everyone should take some time and check the best laced pictures on a real thing with a real TV, and check multicolor / hires difference. I remember back in the time thinking that hires is actually to HIGH resolution, as a normal TV can hardly display such a pixels.

The lesson is: Interlace is only a flickering nightmare if not watched on TV, and multicolor pix has ugly big pixels only if not watched on a TV.
 
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2006-05-06 19:09
jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576
Quote:
Then why do you most certainly word your postings like i did?


I wrote that graphicians who pixel in IFLI usually get some of those negative reactions, not me, from you - particularly.

Quote:
Like which? From what i remember i wrote two columns about the subject. Maybe you should re-read them, cause i have the impression there's some serious overblowing going on...


Do you actually realise I'm not the only one who thinks like this? Yes, perhaps its the overblowing.

Quote:
Yeah, right, like i've never worked in Fun/Gunpaint.. Besides: If YOU choose to pixel your stuff on c64 in these editors and others do great pictures too in IFLI WITHOUT these buggy editors on Amiga or in Photoshop, wouldn't you say your unneccessary labor is your very own choice?


I said, I would expect. Yes, of course I assume you pixelled in IFLI, but if so, I don't get the "weenie" thing or the negative position at all. Or you really think it's so easy to pixel in that mode? Apart from easy deal of converting to IFLI?

For many years it wasn&'t my very own choice, as the only computer I've had was the C64. Lately, I think it's the fun of pixelling in these editors. I don't get the analogy anyway.

Quote:
Oh my, here we go again, I see you've been talking to some people...

Actually no. From what i remember i did write that with some people i wanted to see some workstages or see them working. If that's the same as accusing somebody, then that's your problem. Especially since you never were one of them.


You should also re-read some of your of your words as I clearly remember the accusation of Sebaloz or Katon – who weren't converting their graphics for sure. And those sentences were everything but asking for workstages. And you especially put an accent on Katon's IFLI pictures.

Quote:
In other communities it's totally normal to have technical means of verification, just think of the cheaters in the gaming community and stuff like punkbuster. Or why would you think handing in workstages is a requirement these days for pixel competitions? Do the organizers accuse EVERYONE taking part in the competition of wiring? Applying your logic "asking for proof" = accusation it most certainly would be... Witchhunters, every single one of them! ;-)


I totally agree on this point, I was also lobbying a lot for the workstage-rule. That eliminated a lot of so-called graphicians who were handing over graphics which were direct conversions.

Quote:
Point in case: I can do an IFLI-picture in 2 hours in Photoshop plus some fixing on c64 afterwards and win a Compo with it (one that doesn't require workstages that is!). So far, this can only be done in IFLI. And you ask me why I'm suspicious of IFLI-pictures?


Once again, I agree. But that's not the point of the whole topic. You had a great part of planting this IFLI=conversion seed, and some of us who honestly paint IFLIs have too much trouble getting doubters off our back.

Quote:
If it looks shit on a real c64 and looks great on Bigscreen, it's unfair towards others whose pictures also look great on a real c64. Period. No witches were killed in the writing of this posting!


But who’s forcing them to do so, for god's sake?! Every one of us graphicians know that when you paint for compo, you have to get the big-screen and the other IFLIs into consideration. Even demos are sometimes made for the bigscreen only, why don't open a topic for ditching them too? It has nothing to do with honesty, more like naivity. Go on and organize a non-flickering compo then, I'd be glad to compete there.

Quote:
Well, I don't even know HOW you add the information about the GFX-mode used to a CSDB entry. I see you do (however this works!), but you're about the only person that does. Usually it just says "C64 Graphics" and that's it! Go check for yourself!


I do transfer them, and i'm always disappointed when i see some ugly flicker-mess instead of the nice screenshot i saw before. Blending is already nullifying one aspect of IFLI, the flickering, simply because browsers can't display a proper 25Hz-Interlace. Don't make the screenshots lie on the other issue IFLI has inherently: Lack of detail! Because IFLI just doesn't have that, don't pretend it does through using non-blended "screenshots"!

If it CAN NOT ever be displayed like that on a real c64 (and even in an Emulator, because they only offer blending!) it is simply WRONG to call this a "screenshot"![/quote]

Blended images are extraugly for my taste. Much uglier than emulated interlace, and I can't stand them. So as I clearly state that they're IFLIs, I don't think there's too much trouble to deal about. Personally, I never judge on the first look, I _never_ take into consideration the PC screenshots here, they're just informative to me.

Quote:
Bullshit reasoning. I was comparing to UFLI. _Only_ rastered IFLI-"Screenshots" compare 1:1 to UFLI, because they suggest it's actually Hires! But it's not, it's FAKE Hires! So just don't pretend it's Hires because that's what the editor seemingly displays, is that too much to ask for?...

I don't, but it comes sufficiently close, especially using PAL-Emulation.
This is _not_ true for rastered IFLI-Picture-Screenshots! They flicker (which cannot be displayed in GIF/PNG) _and_ they are murky because of $d016 (which CAN be displayed in GIF/PNG using blending!)


Whatever, I still find the blended images ugly. They simply look rubbish, and have nothing in common with the C64 images. The dithered images still look a bit more close to the original, and that's what counts in my opinion. If there would be another way to make better screenshots, I'd be the first to replace the dithered stuff.

Quote:
I would say a person who uploads pretend-hires-"Screenshots" of something that just IS NOT HIRES should do his homework.


I realise the difference but I won't upload a messed up junk just for the sake of it. Since the graphics mode is clearly stated, I'm not not trying to pretend that it's a different kind of graphicsmode on the gif. Download the picture and see it for yourself what's the deal.
2006-05-06 19:18
jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576
Quote:
Ok let's explain it a bit more so you don't miss the point one more time:

hires vs lores : you see the same on bigscreen and on real c64

koala vs FLI : you see the same on bigscreen and on real c64

IFLI vs UFLI : IFLI does not look the same as on real c64, while UFLI does


In this particular context we were discussing the matter on how can someone tell the difference of different graphicsmodes _on the bigscreen_, weren't we?
2006-05-06 19:43
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362
Quote:

In this particular context we were discussing the matter on how can someone tell the difference of different graphicsmodes _on the bigscreen_, weren't we?


Urm... no. Because you just can't!
2006-05-06 23:13
Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206
I think UFLI can generally produce a nice end result (depedant on the subject matter), but I do this for enjoyment and I simply find IFLI nicer to work with because there are so few technical issues to worry about when pixelling. When I have to spend 30 minutes anti-aliasing a curve in UFLI, the tedium really sets in, it just stops being enjoyable to me. Couple this with the the fact that I'm a freak who only releases about 10% of everything I do because I think the rest is crappy, the time spent in pixelling UFLI just feels like some kind of torture! :)

I very much respect the work TCH has done with UFLI, he's taken a little used mode and produced some fantastic pixelwork with it. The one thing I would say though is that what he's released so far has been mostly straight copies. Whilst they look really nice, it does make life much easier when pixelling a difficult mode. Personally I find making compsitions that I'm happy with difficult enough in IFLI, without any added complications!

Finally, the screenshots thing was done to death in another thread, but for the record I upload the "fake" hires shots because a) the merged ones look ugly and to me are no more of a true representation of IFLI b) From a personal point of view I'm interested to see the pixelling and you don't get that with a merged shot. I always label the modes on my pictures in CSDB, so it shouldn't be misleading anyone.

Oh and I agree with Oswald's original point (though interlace can sometimes look okay in an emaulator, it doesn't help that some people STILL use really ugly palettes!)
2006-05-07 01:38
Tch
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512
@Deev: next one will be of my own design. ;)
2006-05-07 12:36
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362
Tch: Check your Email for chrissake! ;-)
2006-05-07 16:58
Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206
Quote: @Deev: next one will be of my own design. ;)

damnit, then I'll have to think up another excuse for being lazy and still using IFLI! :)
2006-05-07 23:25
Tch
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512
Quote: damnit, then I'll have to think up another excuse for being lazy and still using IFLI! :)

Get a job at BAX-Global in Denmark.
Lots of time will be wasted with lots of excuses. ;)

@DeeKay,seriously thinking about it.
But no decision today as I am pretty fucked up..
Sorry for not reading my mail,but I was out of town.
2006-05-09 12:35
Graham
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990
Quote:
Blended images are extraugly for my taste. Much uglier than emulated interlace, and I can't stand them.

Huh? With interlace you DO blend two 160x200 images, so you agree now that doing that is extra-ugly?

Quote:
Whatever, I still find the blended images ugly. They simply look rubbish, and have nothing in common with the C64 images. The dithered images still look a bit more close to the original, and that's what counts in my opinion.

Huh? Blended shots only remove the interlace, while hires-shots remove the interlace AND show a detail which just isn't there... So you think that lying two times is more true than lying one time?

Quote:
In this particular context we were discussing the matter on how can someone tell the difference of different graphicsmodes _on the bigscreen_, weren't we?

No we were discussing the fact that if the bigscreen shows something which isnt there, it's unfair. The C64 just is not able to do non-flickering IFLI...
2006-05-09 13:03
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5026
Graham, imho interlace != blending.

as you say: "Blended shots only remove the interlace"

so you state that blending = interlace but blended shots removes interlace ?

"The C64 just is not able to do non-flickering IFLI..."

a good gfxman, and a suitable TV set can make flickering more than acceptable. Dont bring up y/c cables now, if my intention is not to see the flickering I obviously wont go for lame solutions.




IFLI just needs another TCH to do it a justice. Like TCH and UFLI. Anyone thought before TCH that ufli is a usable mode ? Using todays standards its possible to do fucking good pics in IFLI too imho, and its not the flickering / non flickering that makes a mode kewl. Its the graphician!

I remember back then showing a ifli pic in a demo was a technical achievment alone. Later we learned the lesson, a picture will not look good coz its hard to display it. But this also implies that a picture will not look bad because it flickers a bit. I'd exclude flicker horror too, but a technically good drawn IFLI has nothing to be in shame of. The shame is on the ppl who watch the picture in emulator.
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