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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Jch-Editor Improvements?
Which Jch-Editor version has THE BEST 3th-party improvements? (only the editor not the player)
I have seen that different groups/composers released improved versions, but unfortunately I don't know what they improved... any idea?
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Btw.
IMHO the way of entering instruments/notes into the blocks is quite boring.
Instead, why not use real tracker behaviour. (instrument-number is created automatically if the user writes a note down.) |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
Well, maybe you're right in some ways. But if you have to change instrument it's easier just to write it instead of having to find the exact instrument in a list.
Maybe it's a matter of preference. |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
In fact there is a point to why instrument is not auto-set when you enter a new note. Setting an instrument with Ixx resets the ADSR you might have modified with supercommands.
As for the question about which editor version rocks the most I have no idea. I use the original one by JCH simply because I've never had enough energy to do any fixes to anything but the player.
And of course, the best fix is the one you do yourself where you simply remove stuff you never use and add stuff you always wanted. Like a tune playing in a Koala-editor. Simply irresistible |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
In the case you decide to use a tune in a koala-editor, the tune of choice will ofcourse be something by Deek. |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Weird thing about JCH is that once you get used to the editor, you wouldn't want it any other way. Its simplicity in functionality compared to modern trackers and machines is apparent, but I feel that that's its strength - the SID doesn't need all that fancy stuff. Just look at Aleksi Eeben's digi-editor - it pales in comparison to something like FT2 on PC, but actually the functionality coded in there is all you'll ever need (unless someone can code some realtime effects on those samples). Only improvements I'd want is a better player/instrument routine with more goodies in the supertable and more filter control (v21 is doing a great job there).
Another interesting player is the one with StereoSID support by Samar (not sure if you can 'upload' v20 or v21 into it). Definitely something to fiddle on. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
IMHO the Super-Table is quite confusing. Everything is controlled by the same S-command. So it's quite difficult to detect if there is used a slide, vibrato or something else. :(
btw. Is there a way for no pulse-restart, no filter restart? |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
You will only find no-pulse or no-filter restart in modified players.
However, there is a cheap trick you can use by making an identical instrument with pulse- or filter-pointer straight into the 'loop' instead of the place where you init for the illusion of no restart. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Except for np21, which does have that particular feature, but ofcourse it's not one of the "original" JCH players.
The super commands aren't the most elegant solution for effect control as there are only 64 of'em available, which is not very much once the super commands table is used for more stuff than just slides and vibratos. And as you point out, Nata, it's a bit of a hastle to keep track of which super command is what effect. It gets better over time, but it's not nearly as convinient as the per-tick-in-track-command value of mod trackers (and Goat too I guess!.. but that's not a c64 editor anyway, so comparing is not really fair!) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
If I understand right, each supercommand takes only 1 byte in the pattern to invoke, so that's definitely more efficient than in tracker-like systems (1 byte for command and another for parameter) if you need the same command multiple times, as is likely |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
but, wouldn't it be more comfortable to use f.ex for slides a - S -, for vibrato a - V - .....? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I think it's not always about making it comfortable. "One command for all needs" does have its merits, especially from a coders point of view. :-) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
hmm. :-I |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Quote: I think it's not always about making it comfortable. "One command for all needs" does have its merits, especially from a coders point of view. :-)
Heresy :)
Of course, if you have to care about little things like memory, player footprint and rastertime... |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
hey, you got natatracker already, hands off of jch! :D |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Well, if you have worked with JCH for a while, you'll notice that you don't really need "S" and "V" and "F" (filter) commands and stuff. You usually place your effects at the same position in the supertable (first vibratos, then slides, then filters, for example) and then you use the super table numbers to "see" the different effects. So for example, "S" = S01 to S02, "V" = S03 to S05, "F" = S06 to S12. When you stick with your personal system, editing soon becomes a breeze and you'll be super tabling all over the place.
The only problem I encountered with the system are the odd "overlap" issues every now and then. Overlap in the sense that you would like both an instrument and effect change at the same time in one channel. Unfortunately, you can't do a "I02 S05 Note" in JCH, so you'll have to find ways to work around it. But, such overlaps are rare, so it's not really worth changing the current layout of the editor, which is brilliant in its simplicity. Major props to JCH, who thought this up so many moons ago. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Actually I don't think a true natatracker yet exists .. for it should support seamless change between siddump & tracker displays, any effect imaginable in any musicroutine, scripting or extrasensory perception for addition of any editor feature, load/save from MMC64 and sideways digi playback :)
OK, enough of derailing this thread... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
i think he should learn coding ASAP. i think i would like natatracker too :=D |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Nah, have you played Half-Life 2 and seen those poor bastards (stalkers) in the citadel, doing repair and programming tasks? Those are what Nata needs an army of :)
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Hahaha... Funny. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
what i TRULY wish was different in jch sometimes - the colors. there's times where i just can't take green any more, so i'd wish it to come up in a light grey version with white highlights instead, or any other less eye-hurting color combination.
right, i should hack it myself, or get a slave as well. =) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
well, I don't like the colours in the jch editor too much either, but I do see the point in keeping it not TOO colourfull... I myself just use greytones, black, white, blue, light-blue, cyan and so... check the screenshot:
http://www.6581.dk/viruz/X-sid_screenshot.jpg
A comment on the topic... Often you just have to be a little creative to do some special things in c64 music... for instance if someone wants a tremolo effect... well, then you could use a combination of altering ADSR and in the wave+freq table, switching gate on/off, or do that in the sequences.
So I don't see a point in doing a player+editor that has tons of features, just the ones needed. Use your creativity, would be my suggestion. :-) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Strangely enough, I like the green. The Matrix really rubbed off on me :). I don't know why, but in music editors (JCH, FT2, BUZZ, SKALE) and applications (WINAMP), I always end up liking the default skin the most. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Btw.
... and the Sustain/Release command works only on notes???!?
Doesn't this have disadvantages?
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
That's the way the SID works. You can't manipulate volume easily. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
It's a good thing to be able to manipulate adsr during a note, along with gate.. you can do some neat things with that. So I use ADSR on gate commands too.. not just on notes. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: That's the way the SID works. You can't manipulate volume easily.
What I mean is:.. Jch doesn't allow to change the Release value after the note? |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
ok then... well good I'm not using that one :-) |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
Quite easy to fix thouhg...just need to change one STA really. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Or use NewPlayer 21.Gx.. This one allows for both setting ADSR (DSR at least) on note events AND every other tick.
Nata, remember that NewPlayer20.G4 (default in JCH) is made anno 91. The ADSR thing is not a restriction in the editor, but in the player! |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
...NewPlayer 21.Gx.. ..... but it isn't the real player :-D :-D ;-)
but other players/editors anno '91 doesn't have this restriction... |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Well, there are several players for the JCH editor which Jens wrote himself, there's not ONE original player.. You must know this..
I don't remember too many editors / trackers being very dynamic back in 91 (actually I was more or less stopped in the scene by then, so I've got very little recollection..).
I wonder which editors/players you are refering to? I'm just curious, not that I have any personal expirience with any other player but my own (cough) and slight amount of expirience with Jens' ever so brilliant editor/player. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Nata, just what the fuck is wrong with you? If it's necessary to limit yourself in some arbitrary way (historical player version), then naturally you can't complain of missing/lacking features.
Btw. if some piece of music seems to have supernaturally awesome features for its age, it's possible that there never was an editor at all, but the music was written directly in source code or monitor. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: ...NewPlayer 21.Gx.. ..... but it isn't the real player :-D :-D ;-)
but other players/editors anno '91 doesn't have this restriction...
Name one editor released in 1991, that doesn't have this restriction. :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Name one editor released in 1991, that doesn't have this restriction. :)
'sosperec editor' ... :P
Of course there are some others too... |
