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2012-03-10 10:22

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576

Tags (yet again)

It is still unbeknownst to me why tags weren't implemented yet, or why are some so stubbornly against it. This portal is almost completely based on IMDb, and tags are one of the most useful features on that site.

Just a few of the useful features it would bring:

- finding demos containing an effect, record, theme...
- finding musics with a specific style, instrument, musical technique...
- finding images with a certain motive, character, technique, color-sceme...
- finding a specific usage of a tool/utility
- finding a magazine with an article about XY
- etc. etc...

It wouldn't take more than an hour to implement: another textbox on the "add comments" page with the Tags label (separated with commas) -> parsing the field and popping it out on the profile-page (as links, so if I'd click on a tag, I'd be redirected to a search-results page with a list of all those products where the same or similar tag was present).

Of course it wouldn't work right away, populating would certainly take some time. Just as everything else on this site.

Any thoughts? And in case of another instant rejection, I'd definitely love to get a bit more reasonable answer than the usual "I don't think we need it. Oh, and look here's my middle finger too. thxbai"

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2012-03-10 17:11

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576

Quoting Gropeaz

and thats why you clean them up, yes.

You don't seem to comprehend the idea behind tags. The only thing you'd be forced to clean up would be the non-related entries. Everything else is just useful info. Those who enter non-related data should be warned not to do so, on a certain number of warnings you'd do the same as you'd do with a user who spams the database (kick his ass out from CSDb).

Quoting Gropeaz

and did you notice that i choose an example which is entirely stupid because that "tag" already exists?

And what if I want to tag a demo or an intro with ifli or interlace fli because it contains an ifli picture. How is not a tag at all better than any of those two???
Furthermore, please explain to me how to find a demo with an ifli image in it at the moment? Without tags.

Quoting Gropeaz

that reminds me that you also will make sure no info is lost because ppl will blindlessly dump it into tags than creating proper database entries. ie delete the "ifli" and "interlaced fli" tags alltogether and edit the respective entries accordingly.

"ppl will blindlessly dump it into tags"???

Can't tell if you're sarcastic again, or actually serious. So you say that people have the tendencies to add release properties into the comments section? The tags textbox would be a part of the comment section. I am not sure how mutherfucking dumb one should be to enter the properties there instead selecting it from a list when submitting the release.

2012-03-10 17:35

Cruzer

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048

Groepaz: Do you have any examples of webaites where tags are being misused like you predict? Or what's the reason why you think you know how it would turn out?

2012-03-10 17:37

Celtic
Administrator

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807

Well, i am still for it. I think tags can make a valuable addition to the site. But it is in the end up to Perff, and wether he can/wants to code it.

I think groepaz is not 100% against tags in general, he is i guess just pointing out that certain tags already excist. Also, by playing devil's advocate he usually gets out all the potential problems before coding commences :)

To me, something that would use a seperate tag system like jailbird proposes would only add to the csdb.

Now lets wait until klaus feels like reading the forum :)

2012-03-10 18:09

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576

Quoting Cruzer

Groepaz: Do you have any examples of webaites where tags are being misused like you predict? Or what's the reason why you think you know how it would turn out?

I'd be interested too. IMDb, which is also almost 100% community driven (and that means hundreds of thousands of potential idiots who could ruin it), has a really awesome tag system. I can't count the times it was useful for broadening my horizons or to find new, amusing stuff. Last time we were discussing tags on the forum and I mentioned this to Groepaz his answer was something like "I don't like it". He's simply not objective in this matter.

Quoting Celtic

I think groepaz is not 100% against tags in general, he is i guess just pointing out that certain tags already excist. Also, by playing devil's advocate he usually gets out all the potential problems before coding commences :)

But why would it be a problem if a certain tag mimics the release's type or property? Why is it a problem at all if we have "duplicates" amongst tags? I don't see any drawbacks here, except if utterly dumb people enter actual release properties into the tags textbox. Or, if someone wants to mess with the data on purpose, but that's another story.

2012-03-10 18:21

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576

To illustrate the process of entering tags.
Clicking on the "Add comments" link would take you here, where you'd enter your desired tags (if there are literally duplicate tags, there could be either ignored or an error message could be sent to the user).

The tags would show up on the profile page with the previously entered ones from other users (of course you'd have the ability to delete or edit entered tags, just as it is possible for any other "comment-section" element).

And finally, clicking on the tags would lead you to a regular search-results page where all those releases would show up which are labeled with the same tags.

2012-03-10 21:46

Conjuror

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168

To help with consistency, it would be good for a unique tag list to be available to select from, as well as a field to add new ones.

+1 for tags.

2012-03-10 22:05

Nafcom

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588

Quote: To help with consistency, it would be good for a unique tag list to be available to select from, as well as a field to add new ones.

+1 for tags.

agreed! +1

2012-03-11 00:13

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11119

Quote:

Groepaz: Do you have any examples of webaites where tags are being misused like you predict?

to be honest, i find them useless on most sites that use them. and they are especially bad on sites that dont have god knows how many users (like csdb). its the good old voting problem again - the only way to fix it is to get more people involved.
Quote:

I don't see any drawbacks here, except if utterly dumb people enter actual release properties into the tags textbox

since you would be looking after it, thats not a problem =)

2012-03-11 01:42

Jon
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247

The CSDb has always been self policing. I don't understand why anyone would suspect a change in behavior with the introduction of tags.

J

2012-03-11 08:06

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576

Quoting Gropeaz

its the good old voting problem again - the only way to fix it is to get more people involved.

Hold on, there's a difference. Even one single tag would bring valuable content to a product page. However, a vote is someone's subjective opinion, often frown upon, and it's not a beneficial part of the information related to the product. Secondly, the vote-system is simply flawed, a lot of users hate it, don't want to use it, or use it anonymously (out of fear). Why would be the same with tags? As opposed to voting, it won't be a penis-size contest. By he same logic you argue against tags, one could also disapprove the comment-system, the forum, the charts, the bbcode, the history on your userpage, heck, even the site's design itself, almost everything except pure, raw data presentation.

Don't understand me wrong, a few of us value the work you do here, but you often seem to completely forget that the site is actually based on hundreds, if not thousands of people: those who regularly upload or actually make something on the C64, so please forgive us when we feel that CSDb doesn't exclusively belongs to the handful of moderators.

OK then, let's summarize the pros and cons of tags:

Cons:

- some very dumb people who can't distinguish an empty text-box with a "Tags" label from the product properties dropdown may or may not mess up their release-page
- takes time to grow to a useful size (just like everything else on this site)
- it's useless for Groepaz

Pros:

- a cross-referencing functionality, helping in database transparency
- finding related products with ease (e.g. demos with plot records, musics with fast tempo, graphics with a grey color-scheme, tools for fonts, etc etc etc); that is currently impossible without tags
- the majority (if not all) of the users are actually in favor of it

I think I'll rest my case here. Doesn't seems we could move on further from this point.

It's now on Perff.

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