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Forums > CSDb Discussions > X2016 Competitions: Your Input Wanted!
2016-02-16 20:07
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 X2016 Competitions: Your Input Wanted!

The 28th of october is still far away but getting closer and closer. The organizers have been getting busy and are now well underway to get everything sorted out for another smashing X!

Since entry delivery and running the compos at X14 went quite smooth and voting is now done in realtime, we believe we may have room for 1 or 2 more (small/fun) c64 competitions. Like a PETSCII compo or a 4k compo, or maybe you guys have an idea?
Or perhaps you think the straightforward demo/music/gfx compos are enough.

Let us know :)
2016-02-16 20:24
enthusi

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677		 May I suggest a body-painting compo?
2016-02-16 20:25
Cresh

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354		 2SID, PETSCII.
2016-02-16 20:33
Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411		 PETSCII

Extended-C64-Demo? (c64+extensions, c128)

4K not so much in my book, but 1-Block-Compo could be fun.

2SID worth a try, too.

Thanks for doing that *again*, guys!
2016-02-16 21:12
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 2sid, and even a unlimited amounts of sids would be fun, like just mount up like 30 sid voices and compose all the way... I would love that... and the petscii also. A more weird one would be a sprite compo - still sprites with plexer and a animation sprite compo, run from c64 without screen on... just sprites (and rasterbars maybe)... suggestions only!
2016-02-16 21:14
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513		 4k! Oh my God, yes! :)

By the way, that would mean I was six years ahead of my time -> Chanel No. 64 ;)
2016-02-16 21:20
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513		 Oh and by the way, I know some people will be offended by this idea, but how about a separate demo compo for cooperation demos? To make things a bit more... I don't know, fair? Balanced?

Just an idea, don't fucking shoot me.
2016-02-16 21:24
Kristian

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126		 I was just thinking the same, wacek ;)
2016-02-16 21:37
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219		 Quote:
the straightforward demo/music/gfx compos are enough

Basically, it _IS_ enough, why change a system that went so smooth last time.

Extra PETSCII wouldn't do much harm, though, every one can do it, also showing/voting shouldn't take too much time.

Nothing against splitting 2SID from SID or 4k from demo either.
2016-02-16 21:51
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 One group demo? Guess lots of people must change their memberstatus then... ohhh well... Is not the scene about just creating something fun with friends? For me it is just and only about that... groups do not matter to me... it is about having fun. Our Offence, Fairlight, Prosonix, Artline, Code7, Censor, Booze, Noice, FAIC, Plush, The Black Lotus, Hoaxers, Wrath, Oxyron, Arsenic, Hitmen, Nuance, Protovision, F4CG, Crest, Triad, Byterapers, BlackMail, Instinct, Horizon, Cameltoe, Samar, Miracles and GP demo will rule the big screen! ;-)
2016-02-16 21:55
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 People matter, that is why we are in same groups and also finding each other on these super insane parties and building friendships and also creating super cool stuff to show our all other friends and to compete. We are all connected!
2016-02-16 22:13
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 I already have a name for that demo: "the big scene gangbang!" :)
2016-02-16 22:24
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513		 PAL, and of course you missed my point completely ;)
I have nothing against coops, coop demos and same people being in many groups. Hell, at some point in the 90s I was in at least 5 at the same time ;)

I am just thinking that we are at a certain point in commodore demoscene history, where it is viable to ask the question if those two (coop demos and single group demos) are comparable anymore, due to a sheer amount of gunpower. It becomes a bit like a football game played by a standard team on one side, and three teams on the other. Is it fun to watch? Not really. I understand you have a different perspective on that, because you are basically sitting in a different place that I am.
But once again - it's just an idea, don't get so offensive, it's not an attack. And no, 'we are all doing it just for fun' cannot be always used as an ultimate argument against any attempt at regulating anything. I think... ;) If there is no competition, no comparison, no contest - fine, but when you put those in place, you need some common sense and measure in place.

PS. And my use of the words 'offended' and 'offensive' is/was pure coincidence ;PPPP
2016-02-16 23:51
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219		 reminds me of the (mostly joking) statements by booze accusing of being "unfairly" beaten by OXY and Censor "teaming up" against them in Comaland 100% :)

Nothing against splitting competitions basically, but I wouldn't do it unless 3 or more of such co-op demos are handed in. And as I said before, I do not really find it important to split categories.
2016-02-17 00:45
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 wacek: I think you missed my point completely ;)

I am 42 years old and just doing something creative with my friends... from my sphere I have all these great friends and like to create with them all... the more the merrier... because they are my best friends.

I never wanted to turn this into us, I never even saw your words 'offended' and 'offensive' towards us in any way.

My point were just simply the title of our Datastorm demo: We are all connected!

Insane people doing insane stuff on an insane platform to do stuff on today... insane it is... far out... we are oddballs all of us - AND I LIVE AND LOVE IT.
2016-02-17 03:22
Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680		 cracking compo.
2016-02-17 07:07
Doc Strange

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 101		 Dir art compo would be cool.
2016-02-17 07:34
bugjam

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581		 +1 for dir art.
2016-02-17 07:53
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966		 How about a drinking competition ? XD XD
2016-02-17 07:59
Axis/Oxyron
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 91		 I wouldnt mind about a coop-compo, but I dont think its practical. It wouldnt make things more fair, just shift the advantages. It would produce border-cases to cause new discussions, like people in multiple groups, 2 small groups making a coop, exclusive graphics or music from another group, help with linking, whatever...

I would go for PETSCII and something size-limited for the coders (1K- or 4K-Intro).
2016-02-17 08:45
Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504		 Some size compo would be great, no matter if it is 256b, 1k, 4k, also a fastsize compo would be fun with the rules announced at the party. Like produce a chargrid in as few bytes as possible.
2016-02-17 08:45
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 Quote: How about a drinking competition ? XD XD

yes! and a farting compo as well! :)
2016-02-17 10:01
Dwangi

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130		 +1 for 4K-demo compo.
and for this category remote entries should be accepted :)
2016-02-17 10:14
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 ok serious: multiple-stage compo!...
so you code and you do an entry for the intro/4k/demo/whatever compo, then you paint a bitmap and you enter the gfx compo and finally you compose and you enter the sid compo. make the average of all votes in these categories and the best wins. some sort of triathlon just to understand.
2016-02-17 10:34
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 i demand a rule that says "if bitmaps scroll for more than 30 seconds, demodisk is set on fire immediately"
2016-02-17 10:54
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014		 Quote: i demand a rule that says "if bitmaps scroll for more than 30 seconds, demodisk is set on fire immediately"

Agree on that!
2016-02-17 11:58
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 not how that implies disk, not some half broken emulation :)
2016-02-17 12:00
Conjuror

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168		 Quote:
i demand a rule that says "if bitmaps scroll for more than 30 seconds, demodisk is set on fire immediately


I didn't think this was that much of a problem that arson is required? As there seems to be only one artist capable of producing page after page after page after page after page of 10/10 quality art :p
2016-02-17 12:28
Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338		 Quote: Quote:
i demand a rule that says "if bitmaps scroll for more than 30 seconds, demodisk is set on fire immediately


I didn't think this was that much of a problem that arson is required? As there seems to be only one artist capable of producing page after page after page after page after page of 10/10 quality art :p

Only one artist willing to, perhaps.
2016-02-17 12:41
Conjuror

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168		 Quote:
Only one artist willing to, perhaps.


Agreed! but of course one has made it his signature.

Maybe another compo category then? 4+ screen gfx compo
2016-02-17 13:02
T.M.R
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749		 Howe about a compo for the demo with the longest scrolling picture? (Just kidding, that'd need an extra day added to the party to show all the entries! =-)

Also, a live coding compo with a theme announced on the day is good; there could be a post here and on IRC for remote entries too if there's a worry about the numbers?
2016-02-17 14:09
Wisdom

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 90		 A size compo would be great.
2016-02-17 14:23
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 Quote: A size compo would be great.

please elaborate. I hope you don't have in mind some weird compo with pants off :)
2016-02-17 15:39
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 yes that what size compo means. PANTS DOWN!
2016-02-17 15:40
Wisdom

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 90
2016-02-17 16:27
Magic

Registered: Sep 2012
Posts: 44		 What about a seperate democompo for disk based demos and one file demo's ?

And yes a 4k intro compo to!
2016-02-17 16:30
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966		 Quoting Wisdom
2016-02-17 18:13
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408		 Quoting ZeSmasher
ok serious: multiple-stage compo!...
so you code and you do an entry for the intro/4k/demo/whatever compo, then you paint a bitmap and you enter the gfx compo and finally you compose and you enter the sid compo. make the average of all votes in these categories and the best wins. some sort of triathlon just to understand.


4k intro/4k graphics/4k SID.

Maximum 30 seconds decrunch time for the graphics section, otherwise some idiot's likely to go off and IDK photon map a mandelbox or something.
2016-02-17 18:27
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 Good to see a lot of suggestions and responses!

Lemme start with a couple of things we will NOT do:

- Ban huge co-op demos.
- Non-stock c64 entries (with 2sid as maybe the only exception).
- Accept remote entries.

That said, looking at all your replies, I'd say it's definite yes to the PETSCII compo for sure.

2sid could be nice (if not toooo many entries), but dunno yet if we have the hw for it (and then there's the 6581x2, 8580x2, 6581+8580, arrgh;)

Then the size-compo, and well, that would double the amount of compos we already have. Not sure yet if it'll all fit the schedule yet.

Would you mind if the compo lasted from 20:00 till 01:00 with prize ceremony at 02:00? (obviously with some super necessary breaks;)
2016-02-17 18:30
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 you could schedule the compos for friday evening, so ppl will actually have time to get drunk.

also automatic disqualification for everyone who goes to bed before 4am!
2016-02-17 18:33
Perplex

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255		 Here's an idea: let's have so many compo categories there will be only one entry in each. Everybody wins!
2016-02-17 18:53
Rastah Bar
Account closed

Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 336		 How about a gaming compo? Using Vice netplay for people at home?

And how about live streaming of some of the compos? Perhaps with remote voting?
2016-02-17 18:59
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 how about no internet whatsoever and you come to the fucking party? pfff
2016-02-17 19:38
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408		 Quoting Burglar
Good to see a lot of suggestions and responses!

Lemme start with a couple of things we will NOT do:
...
- Accept remote entries.


Disregard my vote then, not going to manage the four figure airfare this year!
2016-02-17 20:44
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513		 Burglar, nobody was asking to ban co-op demos... Read with understanding, please <rolls_eyes>

Also, if you are worried about length/amount of entries, PETSCII will definately produce 10x more entries than 4k, guaranteed ;) Just saying...
2016-02-17 21:23
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 Enno, I have a fresh idea... a revolutionary demo concept, something completely unseen! Let's stop my usual boasting, just wait a few days and I'm gonna produce an example of what I have in mind... downvoters stay ready :) BRB
2016-02-17 21:57
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 Ì think PETSCII is part of graphics compo, 4k is part of demo compo just like onefile/4 discside demos. If you want to be a winner, save your 4k, team up and beat the champs. Or be satisfied with a lower ranking, a brilliant 4k will be acknowledged as a great achievement by the audience anyway. Same goes for a lovely PETSCII. A 2 sid compo will ruin the charm of a 1 sid compo.

A wild compo would be nice, though. Drunk party hacking is something different compared to years of preparation.
2016-02-17 22:36
Flex

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 110		 First of all I'd stick to the same schedule as in X2014 which seemed to work out really well - except if more compos then why not put some (like music compo(s)) for the friday-night entertainment?

The price ceremony would be great highlight for the saturday night. The "hangover" feeling of the Sunday usually do take away some of the glory.. :-)

PETSCII would be great and I don't believe there would be too many as no remote entries accepted. On the other hand, 1 minute for an entry including loading time etc. should do it.

The compos at 2014 were the best organized compo-event I've ever experienced what comes to timetables & technical aspect so you only need "cosmetic" changes if anything at all (if more compos added). \o/
2016-02-17 22:39
Flex

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 110		 ... and +1 for a Beer Drinking Contest. :-)
2016-02-17 23:03
bepp

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 265		 Quoting Flex
The compos at 2014 were the best organized compo-event I've ever experienced what comes to timetables & technical aspect so you only need "cosmetic" changes if anything at all (if more compos added). o/

Agree. Flawless execution with the voting app and all. Felt like next century shit ;-)
2016-02-17 23:14
Trap

Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 223		 I like Ninja's suggestion ... extended demo compo (supercpu, reu, U1541 whatever). Just have the requirement that people bring their own hardware. Would be great. I thing the 'Treu Love' really paved the way for something new. We're talking about it in the group anyway :)

1k or 4k demos ... not really that interesting is it? Instead of limiting ourselves it would be more fun to expand on the platform - hence my support for Ninja's idea.

Pal, you forgot Bonzai on that coop ;)

/Trap
2016-02-18 00:28
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 "The compos at 2014 were the best organized compo-event I've ever experienced what comes to timetables & technical aspect so you only need "cosmetic" changes if anything at all (if more compos added). \o/"

Agree, I was all worried about moving it up and not in the dim dark humid and all lamer and scene fart cellar, but it was great upstears beside the beamer had not the right synq for 50 frames... and some color issues... beside that it was fantastixs... and so huge cool demos surfaced and the best one won... really cool...

Bonzai... Ahhh... I see it now... I am so sorry, it was realtime and the stack just got full there Trap.

Let us all have a super great time in amsterdam and do come to the pre party that macx of offence is arranging... it will be a blast.

See you all there and I for one do feel inspired even the comment on coops and long images... I have almost 96 koalas now, I aim for 256.
2016-02-18 02:44
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645		 +1 for expanded c64 compo, PETSCII and 2SID.

Honestly I would love to see some love for a generic 8-bit C= compo (Vic20, Plus/4, C128), but I get that might be a bit too much of a hassle (:
2016-02-18 10:41
Trap

Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 223		 What's the problem with long bitmaps anyway - as long as they're beautiful to look at :)
2016-02-18 20:20
Stone

Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 172		 Unlimited SID compo +1. If you use more than 2 sids, you should also bring hardware that can play it back.
2016-02-19 06:09
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 how about wild compo for any C= (8 bit!) machine with any extension ? participant must support HW if organizers dont have it ( should contact beforehand)
2016-02-19 06:37
Trap

Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 223		 +1 for Oswald's idea
2016-02-19 07:07
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 Yes, good idea for a wild compo.
2016-02-19 07:53
Knut Clausen

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 18		 +1 for wild compo
2016-02-19 08:54
Mr. SID

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424		 Yes, a wild compo sounds like a good addition to the existing compos...
2016-02-19 10:24
Comos

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 73		 +1 for wild compo
+1 for beer drinking compo :)
2016-02-19 11:26
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 wildcompo without compo recording.... yeah. schedule another day for that then :o)
2016-02-19 15:46
ptoing

Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271		 I think the wild compo thing is a nice idea.
Groepaz, why would we need demo recording, whatever you mean by that, if it is just Actual demos on non-C64 and expanded C64 machines?

Also + for PETSCII compo
2016-02-19 15:57
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 just try to imagine the practical implications. there IS a reason why a lot of the bigger parties record the entries (and even with that it can be a challenge). really the only reason why it can work without at X is that there is nothing but C64s connected to the projector.
2016-02-19 17:59
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 "really the only reason why it can work without at X is that there is nothing but C64s connected to the projector."

Fuvesi made some nice switch-boxes for Arok party to solve this problem. As I remember it had analog switches for selecting the video/audio source without interruption. But there was a lot more stuff to record/stream the compos and everything else.

"Honestly I would love to see some love for a generic 8-bit C= compo (Vic20, Plus/4, C128), but I get that might be a bit too much of a hassle (:"
and
"how about wild compo for any C= (8 bit!) machine with any extension ? participant must support HW if organizers dont have it ( should contact beforehand)"

We organize such a 8-bit party every summer, also this year. Why push it onto X when it's clearly not in it's profile? And we accept remote entries too, but then of course it was only for the fame.
2016-02-19 18:27
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219		 Quote:
4k graphics

would be pretty much flooded by HiRes and PETSCII plus maybe a few MC charset piccies. don't really think that makes sense, rather only extract PETSCII and leave rest of gfx in gfx compo
2016-02-19 18:39
Cresh

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354		 -1 for wild compo demos.

Leave it for Revision/Forever/Revision.
2016-02-19 20:16
Cresh

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354		 Arok :)
2016-02-19 21:58
ptoing

Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271		 Quote: "really the only reason why it can work without at X is that there is nothing but C64s connected to the projector."

Fuvesi made some nice switch-boxes for Arok party to solve this problem. As I remember it had analog switches for selecting the video/audio source without interruption. But there was a lot more stuff to record/stream the compos and everything else.

"Honestly I would love to see some love for a generic 8-bit C= compo (Vic20, Plus/4, C128), but I get that might be a bit too much of a hassle (:"
and
"how about wild compo for any C= (8 bit!) machine with any extension ? participant must support HW if organizers dont have it ( should contact beforehand)"

We organize such a 8-bit party every summer, also this year. Why push it onto X when it's clearly not in it's profile? And we accept remote entries too, but then of course it was only for the fame.

OH! Now I get what you mean. Yeah. Might be a bunch of hassle to swap machines I guess, esp during the same compo. :/
2016-02-19 22:28
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 make place for 2 machines, swap in 1 while the other place is playing.

- profit.
2016-02-19 22:32
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 Riverwash orgs solved it in different way - all prods (for different platforms) were prerecorded from real machines and played back as video with lossless compression. Practical during very competitions, however, some time is needed, of course, for prerecodring and every production delivered last minute is a curse of horrible delay.
2016-02-19 22:51
Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317		 @jammer?
are you for real?
Breakpoint orgs did it 10 years ago. Revision orgs do it too...
but i agree it's a good routine to have it recorded before the combo.
2016-02-19 23:11
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 cant wait for this years combetition :)
2016-02-19 23:39
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 Quoting cArrion
@jammer? are you for real? Breakpoint orgs did it 10 years ago. Revision orgs do it too... but i agree it's a good routine to have it recorded before the combo.


What's your problem, m8? :) I haven't attended those parties but I attended recent Riverwash thus I speak about it only. Comment is still valid, considering it's not a regular routine at X and, moreover, nobody has mentioned it earlier in this thread.
2016-02-19 23:53
FATFrost
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211		 i think a seperate compo for people who live a long way off would be fair.

also a real paint compo, where a fave c64 pic is chosen and all entrants must paint the best real pic they can!!
that would be awesome and then one of the compo winners would receive the paintings as a prize!!
2016-02-20 01:31
CRT

Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 87		 I like X because it's C64 exclusive and it's the Olympics for C64 demos so to say. The X2014 organization was spot on and simple, from a visitor perspective at least. Even the catering was good.

Graphics-, Music- and Demo-compo. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Perhaps give the one-file demo guys some recognition; not everyone can muster a disk side or more. These could still be part of the main demo competition but tagged differently. A one-filer can get a rank in the overall demo compo and a rank as a one-filer.

The real challenge then is to make a one-filer that can beat the multi-filers and get two trophies :-)
2016-02-20 02:49
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 WORD! CRT!
2016-02-20 03:14
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 We have a REU demo on top of the one file demos - So yes it would be hard to make more true categories... it is a fantastic demo on top of that list... but is it a a better demo than one inside true c64... so I also think we should just stay with the compo as it is maybe after all. When boundries are this blurry there is no way you could have hw for all and working for all different stuffs I guess?

It is very cool to be total true also. c64 stock... run it or leave it!
2016-02-20 06:38
Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317		 @jammer no offence intended....

For the compo, what aboyt a remake of this pic compo?
Compopic

Theres even a forum thread already
First CSDb "Unintended cool picture pixelling challenge"
2016-02-20 12:18
Digger

Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 427		 Prerecording demos sucks. I know it's practical but then why not just make videos?

Best C64 demo video compo?
2016-02-20 12:34
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 excellent logic there, respect
2016-02-20 13:45
Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317		 Quote: Prerecording demos sucks. I know it's practical but then why not just make videos?

Best C64 demo video compo?

I have to agree with Groepaz here. It's not about making video.

Go to Revision (I only was on BP once) and check how well organized the compos are. I was blown away how much it influences the overall experience of the party
2016-02-20 15:06
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 Prerecording demos sucks. I know it's practical but then why not just make videos? Best C64 demo video compo?

That gave me ideas! Please forgive the trolling, but I must push this a bit further ;)

<trolling>
Why not just record straight from an emulator? Apparently some people are on the opinion that blurred images suck, so therefore I assume even s-video is not crisp enough. Or the other way round, some effects work better with more blurring or without pal mixing. And there are no proper scanlines on beamers either and it's difficult to find ones without de-interlacing.

Also some graphicians have their favourite palettes for drawing in cross platform tools. Therefore showing the result on a real machine would not represent the art in it's finest form. So we should allow png versions to compete on compos. Using proper colour profiles could solve the skewed saturation/contrast problems as well. And no more flickering of interlaced pictures.

Some musics just don't sound the same as at home or like in the cross platform tool it was originally composed in. Why not just submit lossless encoded versions to make sure it's the right SID revision/emulation? I'm sure some post processing wouldn't hurt either to compensate for the room acoustics.

And it's 2016 already so why bother to travel at all when the whole could be done over the Internet for less cheaper and without wasting time on travelling? Like a huge video conference or so, straight from your sofa, or from where ever you are with your mobile.

Some non-intrusive advertising played between entries and SMS voting (only 2 EUR+standard network fees) could pay the bill for the prices easily.
</trolling>

Wohoo, the possibilities are endless. I better stop here, sorry everyone ;)

And yes, recording makes sense and is not cheating. It make things predictable and safe for both organizers and participants.

It ensures that your work will not crash at the compo because your new crappy loader fails at the wrong moment when it finally meets the real world. Contrary earlier testing by the organizers, cleaned heads, adjusted speed and the finest disks written on the same drive. Probably the reason why a 1541U is used here.

But no risk no fun ;)
2016-02-20 15:19
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 @cArrion - no offence taken, naturally - just a regular sword fight and pint of beer afterwards :D

@Digger - you've just brought 'far fetched' expression to the entirely new level :D

To forestall all conspiracy theories - THE ORGS DO ALL RECORDING from delivered entries at party place way before compos and compo machines are still there for any kind of emergency (and for recording process, obvously :P). Things clear now? ;)
2016-02-20 16:59
Perplex

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255		 Quoting Groepaz
wildcompo without compo recording.... yeah. schedule another day for that then :o)


+1 for one more day.
2016-02-20 17:01
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 yes! finally a good idea in this thread :)
2016-02-20 21:50
Digger

Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 427		 @soci – you've pretty much described my point =)

Prerecording kills the Ghost in the Machine ;-)
The fear of your live running demo failing when beamed is a part of the thrill, isn't it? Why ruin it?

What if there was a surprise hidden part that required user interaction during the live show? How lame if that was also pre-recorded?
2016-02-20 21:56
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 if democompo will use recorded videos instead of the real thing I cancel my trip to NL.
2016-02-20 22:02
Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680		 pre-recording your demos is *the* stupidest idea I've ever heard for a c64 demo party. May as well stay at home and have a conference too.
2016-02-20 22:21
Brush

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 22		 Avoidng labeling things as stupid etc. : our scene is the anti-thesis of "professional". The whole point of it is to ride the old hardware to the max. Which means that as in all extreme sports - there will be failures, casualties and the engine will not work in the worst moment. That's the beauty of the compo. My own demo in '92 hanged because the organizers played it on c128 and i've used old time cruncher in one place that forgot to clear the 2mhz flag. And THAT was the part of the party feeling. That was the adrenaline. If we go down the recording path. It'll be smooth. It'll be professional. It will be sterile.
If i want sterile - i don't fire up c64. Your mileage may vary.
2016-02-20 22:22
Conjuror

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168		 Quote:
Groepaz: wildcompo without compo recording.... yeah. schedule another day for that then :o)

How did this even get interpreted as a serious suggestion? Should be taken as seriously as changing the compos in anyway what so ever.
2016-02-20 22:49
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 Sometimes I don't get you, guys ;) Topic was about optional compos to be added to classic X'2016 menu. Somebody mentioned 2SID and it produced most probable issues with absolutely most obvious one being permutation of different compo machines to deal with in runtime. Actually it was never a huge problem at other parties featuring 2SID but fuck it. One of most obvious and logical solutions is just prerecorded stuff - it reduces multitude of cables, multiplexers, routers and whatever stuff is used to swap signal. Moreover it allows to reduce compotime which seems crucial due to amount of entries and usual demo compo hour. And suddenly whole thickheaded bunch cries how it kills spirit of christmas. So I guess it's best to fuck all additional compos and go as usual. No 2SIDs and any fancy faggotry. So why to put any idea here at all? ;) I'd really love more logical objections to the above instead of crying over kid's years when grass was greener and demos were crashing :P
2016-02-20 22:53
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 most crashing demo compo?
2016-02-20 22:57
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 just for the records: i am very much against recording C64 demos at X. show them live and let them crash. AND FUCKING DONT SHOW THEM AGAIN IF SO.
and please use a proper 1541 for the damned compo too. not some half working emulator.
2016-02-20 22:57
Brush

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 22		 Jammer,

I think you don't fully get what i was trying to say: demo compo is a LIVE event. There is a place for competition of videos: on youtube ppl are posting crazy videos all the time. and there is a place for LIVE compo.
Being a musican you for sure differentiate between live concert and studio recording.
That's exactly the same difference.
And that's why ppl dislike "playback" usage durince live concert.
2016-02-20 23:00
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 ppl drool all over "concerts" consisting of pressing play on laptop and then waving LED fingers in the air
2016-02-20 23:02
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 @Groepaz - now that was a hard slap. I guess we can expect one live performance less now :P
2016-02-20 23:05
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 i just find the comparision beyond silly. recording a demo (properly) and then playing it back for the audience changes exactly nothing. you wouldnt event notice if you didnt know it. comparing it with a life performance of a band playing on stage is just silly.
2016-02-21 07:11
Brush

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 22		 Well "beyond silly" is a good argument. It has a good property of being generic and could be used any any context and any discussion. Risking the possibility of being served with another generic reply let me explain you one difference between "live" and "playback" that i'm referring to and you seem to miss: the possibility of error, mistake or a force majeure. Which you remove by recording. So the whole difference is not if anybody would notice when everything goes smoothly - then in both cases nobody would notice.
I'm not saying i wouldn't enjoy a good demo, when it's played as a video. Not at all. I'm just saying that it's a different feeling.
2016-02-21 08:31
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 Solution: just use a network connected windows pc for playback. The trill will be still there:

Will it play the recording of my demo without stalls/tearing at full frame rate or not?

As I remember Breakpoint used some special rack mounted studio recorder for older machines. Not sure if it was played back without frame-rate conversion or not.

As a solution we could ban scrolls and interlace stuff! ;) Helps to avoid those 30s pictures complained about above as well ;)
2016-02-21 12:29
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 Quote:
I'm not saying i wouldn't enjoy a good demo, when it's played as a video. Not at all. I'm just saying that it's a different feeling.

you would'nt even notice, if not someone would tell you before. and yes, being part of several compo teams with and without recording in the past, i know the difference very well. and i have also heard every silly argument for and against it, no need to repeat them :)

as said before, i am all for running C64 stuff "live" on the compo setup, let it crash, and then skip to the next entry. as long as complaints from the contestants are directed to you, of course :)
2016-02-21 14:40
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 Burglar: Here is my first response to your post.

2sid, and even a unlimited amounts of sids would be fun, like just mount up like 30 sid voices and compose all the way... I would love that... and the petscii also. A more weird one would be a sprite compo - still sprites with plexer and a animation sprite compo, run from c64 without screen on... just sprites (and rasterbars maybe)... suggestions only!

Just if it got lost in all the bullshit on here.
2016-02-21 15:18
Hoogo

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 105		 About recording: On the last MS I handled the C64 stuff nearly every demo was crashing during recording, and no change of hardware could fix that. Whatever scene spirit was in the power network that day, I'm glad that recording could keep it away from the show.

Just check before the party that the recording has no problems with interlace, there was a TP that messed with that. And check problems with 50Hz in these modern times.

Sprite compo sounds nice. Another suggestion: Levels for a game engine?
2016-02-21 19:49
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 Heh, kinda interesting how this thread has derailed a bit, but good to see many suggestions and also some useful discussions.
Obviously, we will not pre-record anything for multiple reasons, it is kinda impossible timewise anyway. This also rules out a wild-compo imho. And besides, we are c64-only for a reason.

What's also important, is the expected amount of entries. X compos are really about who is best in the scene and a compo with only a few entries is too easy to win :)

I'd say a PETSCII compo is a go, for all the right reasons (truly c64, big amount of entries, does not cost a whole lot of time and it'll be fun:).

2SID, I'm not sure yet, and besides, need to discuss it with the other orgs first.

And then there's the idea of splitting off onefile demos. Hmmm, it sounds a bit drastic I think, and wouldn't it cannabalize the main event too much? Or maybe smaller teams would be more likely to enter, who would otherwise skip making a demo?
Judging from previous compos, there really is no need to split them up, imho.
2016-02-21 20:00
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 then do a intro compo instead of the onefiledemo one. 1 min max show each entry.
2016-02-21 20:08
Kabuto
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 58		 Random thought: "live mixed" music compo - specify style, tempo and duration so tracks are mix-able, and mix them duing the compo, like they did at TRSAC
2016-02-21 21:19
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 Burglar: You are right... X is the peak compo c64 party, and only c64... 2sid would be nice however. Just to point out, when mahoney or noname create such massive one-filers there is no reason to split. Just do not add REU into one-files as it is done so here on csdb, that is just unfair to all them great one-file demos on the standard hardware.
2016-02-21 22:37
Copyfault

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 475		 -1 for Wild/expanded C64 (this would pave the way to the end of the c64 scene)

+1 for PETSCII
+1 for Dir-Art
-> maybe these two could be mixed, e.g. allow Dir-Art and Standalone PETSCIIs _or_ have some sort of "scrolling PETSCIIs" that are printed directly after a dir command

+1 for size coding compo
-> 1-block- /or/ code-that-effect- /or/ smth like a "realtime generated picture" theme would be interesting (just like that madonna pic by graham for ex.)


The more I think about it, the more I get to the point that the most important compos are the classic C64 compos MSX+GFX+DEMO. Maybe just sticking to these is the best solution ;)
2016-02-22 03:43
CRT

Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 87		 Burglar:

Splitting one-filers from the rest would be a bad idea.

They should all be in the same compo, one demo compo. Just that the one-filer with the highest votes will win a one-file award and rank.

I think that can encourage some great small releases that might otherwise have been held back.
2016-02-22 11:44
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645		 Quote: just for the records: i am very much against recording C64 demos at X. show them live and let them crash. AND FUCKING DONT SHOW THEM AGAIN IF SO.
and please use a proper 1541 for the damned compo too. not some half working emulator.

+1 for using a real 1541.

I'm not *entirely* against the 1541U, in fact, I feel like it does a reasonably good job for the most part, but having a disk swap menu pop up halfway through the demo isn't acceptable, especially when most demos with multiple sides have some effort put into the flip disk part.

But I also understand it's not entirely practical to use a real drive and that I'm just obsessed with using real floppies (:
2016-02-22 16:19
Snabel

Registered: Aug 2015
Posts: 24		 Quote: +1 for using a real 1541.

I'm not *entirely* against the 1541U, in fact, I feel like it does a reasonably good job for the most part, but having a disk swap menu pop up halfway through the demo isn't acceptable, especially when most demos with multiple sides have some effort put into the flip disk part.

But I also understand it's not entirely practical to use a real drive and that I'm just obsessed with using real floppies (:

Well, if you swap disk via telnet, you will not see any on-screen menus.
2016-02-22 16:35
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 pffft... back then we had demos with ugly decrunch screens, flashing etc (One Year Camelot 3) and now the sissy scene cant even accept disk selector menus popping up in a compo...
2016-02-22 17:23
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 thing is, depending on what kind of stuff is going on in the turn disk part, it will simply not work at all. and yes, its butt ugly too.
2016-02-22 17:45
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 +1 for real 1541. We will try to run multidisk demos from real 1541, but it's not a promise. For practical reasons we may switch to 1541U or chameleon...
One of the reasons X14 compo was so smooth was because we used a 1541U. And the only crashing demo, crashed because we used a real 1541 (and the disks weren't written on the same drive).

(@knoeki, do mind changing your username a bit? your utf8 madness is breaking the layout.)
2016-02-22 17:48
Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680		 Jammer: go join the fucking PC scene then.
2016-02-22 18:10
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 Quote:
And the only crashing demo, crashed because we used a real 1541 (and the disks weren't written on the same drive).

didnt it crash because you inserted the wrong disk in the first place? (or no, that was the year before..... =P)
2016-02-22 18:46
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 Quoting Fungus
Jammer: go join the fucking PC scene then.


Join your braincells together to produce some gray matter perhaps :P Those are comments I love the most - nothing interesting or constructive to say? Have a big cup of yummy STFU then, dude.
2016-02-22 18:50
Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680		 "And suddenly whole thickheaded bunch cries how it kills spirit of christmas. So I guess it's best to fuck all additional compos and go as usual. No 2SIDs and any fancy faggotry. So why to put any idea here at all? ;) I'd really love more logical objections to the above instead of crying over kid's years when grass was greener and demos were crashing :P"

Says the crybaby.
2016-02-22 18:53
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 @Fungus: And...? Anything wise to add in order to oppose my statement?
2016-02-22 18:56
Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680		 It's already been said. A compo is a *LIVE* event, not some pre-recorded perfect conditions on your own equipment. It has always been this way and there is simply no reason to change it. If it we're to be changed, then people would surely begin to exploit it and just make demos in flash or fake things in other ways where it cannot be verified to run on real hardware.

Now, pull your singular braincell out of your ass. Have a day.
2016-02-22 19:08
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 let's keep unrelated stuff out of this thread. its not about prerecording or what not, it's about 1 (maybe 2) additional competitions.
2016-02-22 19:28
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 Quoting Fungus
people would surely begin to exploit it and just make demos in flash or fake things in other ways where it cannot be verified to run on real hardware.


To give you a helping hand with reading comprehension skills:

Quoting Jammer The Helping Hand
THE ORGS DO ALL RECORDING from delivered entries at party place


As Burglar has already stated no prerecording will take place, all above is not valid anyway and I'm perfecly fine with that. Your dumb, delayed statement was just unnecessary - I hope you realize that.


Apologies, Burglar, for trashing on my side in your merit thread. I won't go any further ;) Peace and cheers!
2016-02-22 19:35
Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680		 Jammer - Yes your delayed statement wasn't dumb at all, NOPE. Now fuck off.

Burglar - sorry m8, I shall cease and desist.
2016-02-22 19:48
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 we are still in winter, so open the door and chill down men :)

my idea for the compo (already said, but perhaps it got lost): intro compo! 60" max each entry...
2016-02-22 19:58
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645		 Quote: pffft... back then we had demos with ugly decrunch screens, flashing etc (One Year Camelot 3) and now the sissy scene cant even accept disk selector menus popping up in a compo...

Yes, but those decrunch screens and flashing and whatnot are part of the demo. A menu to swap disk images is not.

I can accept it, whatever. It's all fine, but it's not my personal preference. (:
2016-02-22 20:18
Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639		 Dear Princess Knoeki,

would you mind changing your username? It kills the layout on smaller devices, thank you :)
2016-02-23 13:48
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 79		 Oh so crashing demos and not showing them again is part of the fun? Yeah that's really sooo cool. Especially for the creatives who spent all the days and nights making them, and who also spent the cash to travel to the party.

The point of creating and showing demos is to admire all the works of art and beauty that is actually possible on the old hardware, not seing them crash. Getting kicks out of a crashing demo is like getting kicks out of smashing sandcastles. To pick up on the live band analogy: It would be like cancelling the rest of a band's performance in case of a technical problem.

So yes, I think prerecording is a very valid way to do it.

To get back on topic, I'd love a 2SID compo, too. :)
2016-02-23 13:54
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187		 Quote: Oh so crashing demos and not showing them again is part of the fun? Yeah that's really sooo cool. Especially for the creatives who spent all the days and nights making them, and who also spent the cash to travel to the party.

The point of creating and showing demos is to admire all the works of art and beauty that is actually possible on the old hardware, not seing them crash. Getting kicks out of a crashing demo is like getting kicks out of smashing sandcastles. To pick up on the live band analogy: It would be like cancelling the rest of a band's performance in case of a technical problem.

So yes, I think prerecording is a very valid way to do it.

To get back on topic, I'd love a 2SID compo, too. :)

Actually you're saying that's better to prerecord the whole live and show a video to avoid tech problems or errors during live execution.
The only correct thing to do is to test before actual show, or bring your own hw where you know it works.
2016-02-23 14:01
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 79		 Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, because it's not that a demo is different every time, as in a human live performance.

There is no actual visual or audible difference in replaying the program on a compo machine and replaying a 1:1 recording of the program from a compo machine.

The only difference would be in case of a technical failure, and I don't see where that would ever be beneficial.
2016-02-23 14:04
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 It becomes a major feature of you despise recordings for religious reasons :)
2016-02-23 14:06
LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 79		 lol Groepaz :D

There is no argument against religion. I rest my case.
2016-02-23 14:12
Smasher

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 519		 video recording could make sense at a party with multi platform compos. so organizers don't have to deal with 25 different hardware and hundreds of cables.
But at X... if a demo crashes live at the show it means it could crash on your own c64, so despite all the efforts in making it it also means it's probably not 100% and pre-recording it's just some kind of cheating.
Anyway all this is offtopic: mighty Burglar said we should discuss about 1-2 new compo ideas, not about pre-recording yes/no.
2016-02-23 14:18
Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335		 Prerecording is not that necessary in normal X enviro, true that. I was referring to this mainly because of optional 2SID compo, where at least 4 different configs are taken into account.
2016-02-23 18:00
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271		 When our demo bugged at datastorm due to bad floppys it was horrible, but at the same time it also added charm in a way... haha... I like X the way it is.
2016-02-23 18:55
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 We're getting older, floppies are getting older, chances of a heart attack from a bad floppy are increasing. \o/ Another argument against pre-recording.
2016-02-23 19:06
Hoogo

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 105		 No greater death awaits us than dying in battle by the hands of the ghost in our machine :D
2016-02-23 19:07
Kabuto
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 58		 Prerecording equipment can have hiccups too. (It even happened to the Revision organisers.) I don't think it would really solve more issues that it could possibly cause for the 'X' party.
2016-02-23 19:33
Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504		 No problem about crashing demos, there were backup solutions or people to blame afterwards :-D Especially the one who did the loader will shit his pants at each party :-D So serving a crash is already painful, no need to skip the demo if things can be repaired. Next time i will test things however on the compo machine :-D
2016-02-23 21:22
Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926		 No preliminary access to the compo machine(s) for anybody except the International Karaoke singers and IK+ players! Oh, and extend those compos tremendously? Ridiculous to have 1-2 hrs spare time to the next compo EVEN after calling in some victims from the yard and sleeping houses - finals over after just minutes? ;/
2016-02-24 00:38
Ksubi
Account closed

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 87		 +1 PETSCII

(You could even have a "one hour PETSCII compo" held live at the party. Starting with the c64 boot screen, create a masterpiece in an hour or less...or some thing like that.)
2016-02-24 07:12
Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680		 PETSCII specific gfx compo is a great idea.

C0: how about an Archon compo? :D
2016-02-24 11:28
Dwangi

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130		 Quote: Burglar:

Splitting one-filers from the rest would be a bad idea.

They should all be in the same compo, one demo compo. Just that the one-filer with the highest votes will win a one-file award and rank.

I think that can encourage some great small releases that might otherwise have been held back.

Agree with CRT
Good idea with the one-file thing...

I think Oneder 2 can even rank #1 in the maincompo :)
2016-02-25 10:23
mankeli

Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 141		 +1 One demo compo, but special ranks for one-filers
+1 Use real 1541 or some other way to flip disks. That 1541U menu screen is just awful sight, especially because flip disk parts are often awesome
2016-02-25 12:59
Perplex

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255		 It has been suggested to Gideon to add functionality for swapping disk images on the 1541Ultimate by poking custom registers, and he's positive to that idea. Let's hope it makes it into a firmware update before long.
2016-02-25 19:24
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 so here I was typing this long reply (and took my time), silly me forgot to copy to clipboard, and stupid ass csdb nuked the reply. grrrrrr
2016-02-25 19:26
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 thats what happens if you babble too much :o)
2016-02-25 21:46
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 Quoting Perplex
It has been suggested to Gideon to add functionality for swapping disk images on the 1541Ultimate by poking custom registers, and he's positive to that idea. Let's hope it makes it into a firmware update before long.


While I'm sure this feature is well intended, I think it solves the wrong problem.

Flip parts are often designed to run for an arbitrary amount of time, and then transition to the next part when the new diskside has been detected. It's the last remnant of megademo interactivity in the age of highly polished trackmos---and the consequence is that we get to see some of the most elaborate "press space"-style transitions ever conceived.

With the proposed 1541U feature, the demo somehow needs to trigger the transition automatically, which takes away the interactivity. But only when running on 1541U! On a real setup, there is still a need for a robust user-timed transition, which takes a lot of work to implement. But with an Ultimate plugged in, this work will not be showcased, because the demo will trigger the switch at the perfect moment. Alternatively, the part needs to say e.g. "press space" when running on a 1541U and "flip disk" when running on a 1541.

There is then a risk that coders (and graphicians) will optimise for one of these scenarios, presumably the compo setup, to the detriment of the other. That is the path to platform fragmentation.

The only reasonable approach, as far as the 1541U is concerned, is to allow a disk flip to be triggered by the user---not the demo---without disturbing the running effect. There are three physical buttons on the cartridge, and I can't see why it shouldn't be possible to make one of them act as a flip switch, if so configured.
2016-02-25 21:49
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074		 Pro tip: run 1541U on one C64 with the IEC cable connected to the other C64. You have 6581 and 8580 set up anyway.
2016-02-26 07:06
ruk

Registered: Jan 2012
Posts: 43		 While the 1541 Ultimate is very convenient (I use mine frequently), I would like to think that a more vanilla setup would be the fairest in a compo. A cold booted C-64 with a properly tested and maintained C-1541. No cartridges or fast-loaders whatsoever. Flipping disk is an actual, physical action :)

It would be up to the demomaker to deliver a production that actually runs on real hardware, without initial long and boring loading times. Failing to do so would most likely lead to a lower score.

Allowing for some specialised memory registers and you have a 1541U-demo, not a C64 demo.
2016-02-26 07:53
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 so I was gonna say...

Thanks for all your input! I will now discuss the possibilities with the other orgs and we'll publish final compo setup asap. I'd say its pretty safe to already get more familiar with PETSCII ;)

I also like the onefile award ($0801-$cfff), especially when not splitting the demo compo.

The Chameleon already has support for proper diskflipping, so that's an option. However we will try to run (multidisk) demos from a real 1541, but it's not a promise just yet.
2016-02-26 09:00
Perplex

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255		 While I agree that optimizing demos for custom hardware functionality can lead to a tilted playing field, it could work well if done the right way. For instance, you can say "flip disk" and show some effect, then detect a manual disk change as normal, but it addition to that, poke the custom registers when a key is pressed, not before.
2016-02-26 09:51
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 Quoting Burglar
The Chameleon already has support for proper diskflipping, so that's an option.


As long as you're running the demo on the real CPU inside the C64 and using the video output from the real VIC. That is still possible with the Chameleon, right?
2016-02-26 10:32
CeriX

Registered: Nov 2014
Posts: 11		 Quote: so I was gonna say...

Thanks for all your input! I will now discuss the possibilities with the other orgs and we'll publish final compo setup asap. I'd say its pretty safe to already get more familiar with PETSCII ;)

I also like the onefile award ($0801-$cfff), especially when not splitting the demo compo.

The Chameleon already has support for proper diskflipping, so that's an option. However we will try to run (multidisk) demos from a real 1541, but it's not a promise just yet.

Huh?
No crunching allowed for the onefile award?
(Or why the restriction to $801-$cfff?)
2016-02-26 11:24
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187		 Who said no crunching allowed? the limitation for onefilers is that load range should be 0801-cfff max (202 blocks) loadable from a stock c64 without particular loaders. Crunch like there's no tomorrow.
2016-02-26 11:45
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645		 Quote: Quoting Burglar
The Chameleon already has support for proper diskflipping, so that's an option.


As long as you're running the demo on the real CPU inside the C64 and using the video output from the real VIC. That is still possible with the Chameleon, right?

I'm assuming they won't run the chameleon in standalone mode, so yes.
2016-02-26 12:25
algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705		 The Turbo chameleon takes over the Ram and the CPU via its own core even when connected to the C64.

This opens the possibility of some cheating via activating turbo mode from within the program when required :-) I would guess the testers at the party would somewhat need to either trust the coder(s) or test it on something else before
2016-02-26 13:02
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 I'm not worried about deliberate cheating, though. People would find out soon enough afterwards, and the perpetrators would be disqualified and publicly shamed. What I care about is that the demo runs on the agreed-upon platform, and not some emulation. While unlikely, there could still be undiscovered glitches left, and coders should be free to exploit them.
2016-02-26 13:12
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723		 No Chameleon ffs. Everything should run on real hw, and 1541U2 is good for most demos; if there are demos with stunning change disk-parts, the contestants could flag for use of real 1541. Why even discuss emulators and Chameleon (that's a nono for me when it comes to compos because of what algorithm said above) and stuff like that?
2016-02-26 15:24
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 chameleon is as much a nono as 1541U is. i'd make sure my prod doesnt work on either :)
2016-02-26 15:57
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074		 The sad part is that there's no way you can guarantee that it works on "real hardware". We're talking about mechanical devices at least 25 years old, media that was at best produced in the 90s, and unshielded cables that are sensitive to noise. I've done my best to try and find a known good drive to use, but even so it's failed for no apparent reason during a compo.

The 1541U isn't perfect, but at least it's a known entity that you can test against. As far as I know all the major demo loaders work on it, e.g. Krill, DreamLoad, Spindle, Bitfire - hell even BoozeLoad works :)
2016-02-26 18:03
Cresh

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354		 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxyhfiCO_XQ
2016-02-26 19:05
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 +1
2016-02-26 19:54
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 I'm sorry guys, but this is getting annoying, it's like you guys don't read my replies at all and on top of that, only few of you seem to have any idea on the pragmatic choices we have to make as the persons responsible for running a great compo, without crashes and without huge delays.

So, let me state the facts once again:

1) All compo's we'll be run from a real c64 (both 6581 and 8580), we will not prerecord.

2) The X2014 compo was probably the first big compo ever to run on schedule, with every compo, including voting, dane performance, prize ceremony and a very nice dinner all on time ;)
It was also the first time we used the 1541U and a voting system capable of delivering a clean SD card with compo entries on the fly. Manually copying files/disks was intentionally not part of the process, and if you look at the result... Pretty damn awesome, if I may say so ;)

3) We are always easy going with deadlines, this requires a flexible compofile generation process where everything is automated. Copying disks can not be automated.

4) We are purists too, if we can run everything from real drives easily, we will. Since everything ran so smooth last time, I think we got room to accomodate some disk copying. If only you loaderguys would only write loaders that don't have to be written by the same drive... That's really what causes all the real problems (crashes, delays, the need to copy with one drive only).
Don't forget, all current loaders run perfectly fine on 1541U and Chameleon, you can't say the same with real floppies and real drives.
2016-02-26 20:08
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 " only few of you seem to have any idea on the pragmatic choices we have to make as the persons responsible for running a great compo"

naturally most of us have no experience on that, so best for you is simply ignore what the inexperienced bastards say ;)
2016-02-26 20:16
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 Burglar, I do hear what you're saying; sorry for straying off topic. And I'm happy that you'll try to use real 1541 drives for multi-side demos if possible.

For the cases where this doesn't work, I encourage you to consider MagerValp's suggestion (1541U on the cartridge port of another C64, with IEC cable to the compo machine). To me, this makes far more sense than a Chameleon, since apparently if you hook up a Chameleon, a large part of the machine will be emulated.
2016-02-26 20:31
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 lft, isnt it possible to just hook up the chameleon to the serial port? as a standalone emulated 1541? :)
2016-02-26 21:00
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 1541u has standalone mode too, tho d64 selection blindly must be complicated :)
2016-02-26 23:48
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 tape compo then. problem solved \o/
2016-02-27 07:15
Grue

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 161		 Quote: lft, isnt it possible to just hook up the chameleon to the serial port? as a standalone emulated 1541? :)

Chameleon works very badly as external stand alone drive, it has serious timing problem on iec connector that makes some of the demos fail miserably.
2016-02-27 08:24
Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504		 Quoting Burglar

If only you loaderguys would only write loaders that don't have to be written by the same drive... That's really what causes all the real problems (crashes, delays, the need to copy with one drive only).
Don't forget, all current loaders run perfectly fine on 1541U and Chameleon, you can't say the same with real floppies and real drives.


I am on it :-) Just had more than 1100 successful reads without a single error on 2 other drives on a disk that was written on a a 3rd drive these days :-D @ X 14 the loader was still less tolerant, but the handed in disk worked fine on the censor and oxy setup, but failed on the compo setup :-D At least we always dared to run from real disk, despite the fails :-D Freezing for diskchange always bears the risk of crashes/fuckups when using NMIs, what we also dare to use in turn disk parts :-)
2016-02-27 08:44
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 I've just did a small research on the limited set of popular loaders I'm aware of. Mostly by reading the source code but also testing them by injecting random errors.

Result:

* Bitfire - OK
Does checksum and retries.

* Boozeload - Fail
No checksum, no retry. Junk in, junk out.

* Covertbitops - OK
Does a configurable number of retries, might fail if it's set too low.

* Dreamload - Fail
No checksum, no retry. Garbage in, garbage out.

* Krill - OK
Checksums, retries

* Spindle - OK
Checksums, retries

Any corrections are welcome.

Good to see that most still consider real world use.
2016-02-27 09:24
Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504		 Well, it is also about: write the disk on a floppy that spins with 298rpm and read it in on a floppy that spins with 302rpm. The tight timing in the sector read loops and sector header reading might fail consequently and force the loader to hang for ever/until retry count is reached. This is also a problem one needs to cope in real hardware land.
That said, i'm still for real hw use and so far it was no problem to request this on the compo, i'd just be happy to have a dry run on the hw next time :-D The whimps can of course till cry for 1541u :-D Not to forget that loading on real hw has way more jitter in loading times and sync has to be laid out with more margins around the loading.
2016-02-27 09:52
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074		 Quoting Bitbreaker
Freezing for diskchange always bears the risk of crashes/fuckups when using NMIs, what we also dare to use in turn disk parts :-)


Freezing for disk change is never acceptable in a compo anyway, you need a two computer setup or standalone 1541U.
2016-02-27 12:13
Mr.Ammo
Account closed

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228		 Quoting MagerValp


Freezing for disk change is never acceptable in a compo anyway, you need a two computer setup or standalone 1541U.


If Gideon will not deliver a stable 3.0 firmware with a configurable flip-the-disk button before X, we'll definitely consider using the spare compo machines as 'standalone' 1541Us next to bringing some more diskdrives.
2016-02-27 16:20
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 Quote:
Chameleon works very badly as external stand alone drive, it has serious timing problem on iec connector that makes some of the demos fail miserably.

thats a bit exaggerated - the timing difference to real drives is *less than one cycle* and no properly implemented loader will have a problem with it. in fact, its exactly one single loader that fails - you can easily see from socis list which one that is :o) (and this loader has problems on not-so-perfect real drives as well)
2016-02-27 19:54
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 Quoting soci
I've just did a small research on the limited set of popular loaders I'm aware of.
...


Thanks for this breakdown! I wonder, when you state that a loader does checksums, are you referring to the serial transfer or just the process of reading a block from disk? Spindle does the checksumming on the C64 side, which captures both kinds of errors.
2016-02-27 20:23
enthusi

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677		 just curious, is the serial transfer ever likely to fail? That being said, a load of tap was shown live from tape with badass monitors degaussing left and right...
2016-02-27 20:51
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 Only the GCR bitstream was randomly corrupted in the test. (~1 in 8000)

I assumed no-one would check the integrity between the drive and the c64, so I didn't even tried that.

I was wrong ;) This stuff is pretty advanced.
2016-02-27 21:28
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 The "usual" failure mode for serial transfers of fastloaders is when there's not enough safety margin for asynchronous transfers.

If the oscillators are a bit more detuned or the serial cable is longer sampling may happen around the transition and not when the signals are stable.

I think there's also some timing difference with the C128DCR's 1571 which makes this worse. At least I remember I had to adjust the timing for that in the past when I still determined it by trial-and-error. But cycle counting gives more reliable results.
2016-02-28 05:16
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408		 This just about calls for a new topic, but what sort of errors occur in the GCR stream in practice when using different drives?

Is it purely extra/missing zeros generated by gaps between polarity changes being too long/short, hence also throwing out the byte boundaries for the rest of the block? And how often does this tend to occur?
2016-02-28 09:02
Grue

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 161		 Quote: Quoting soci
I've just did a small research on the limited set of popular loaders I'm aware of.
...


Thanks for this breakdown! I wonder, when you state that a loader does checksums, are you referring to the serial transfer or just the process of reading a block from disk? Spindle does the checksumming on the C64 side, which captures both kinds of errors.

Might be, but it does work with my 1541-II and 1541ultimate, but fails on Chameleon if using its external iec.
2016-02-28 14:30
nucleus

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 16		 +1 256 bytes
+1 petscii
+1 wild

see you at x2016
2016-02-28 16:29
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 Quote:
I think there's also some timing difference with the C128DCR's 1571 which makes this worse.

yup. guess what loader has problems with it :)
2016-02-28 17:53
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 Did a spot check on the Spindle 2.1 serial transfer timing, and this part seems to be the tightest (~1.4us).

Tracks were aligned so that STY $DD00 must finish before the end of BIT $1800 to get recognized. In the reverse direction STA $1800 needs to be finished 1us earlier(!) than the end of LDX $DD00 to get recognized. So that ~1.4us is even less...

But this is simulation only. Therefore I can't say if it's bad or not.
2016-02-28 20:10
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 Good thing the serial transfer is checksummed then. =)

Actually, I think STY $dd00 must finish one cycle before the end of BIT $1800 in order to be picked up, so this would put us back at 1.4us. Do you have experimental data that indicates otherwise?

I could try to slow down the serial transfer routine, just to see how that affects the benchmarks. If it doesn't, perhaps it's better to be safe than sorry.

Related: When I was working on Shards of Fancy, and thus on a pre-1.0 version of Spindle, there was one point where everything would work perfectly on the 1541U and in Vice, but randomly fail on a real drive. Sometimes I would get lockups or random crashes roughly halfway through the demo, and of course I ran into this issue less than a week before the party was due.

It took a while to track down, but in hindsight it was obvious: If the sender changes two signals (say, Data and Clock) at the same time, they might not change simultaneously from the point of view of the recipient. In particular, the IEC bus works with pull-up resistors, such that a transition from high to low is going to be significantly quicker than a transition from low to high. So if the C64 changes 10 into 01 with a single store instruction, and the 1541 reads the corresponding register at the wrong time, it's going to read 11 (corresponding to low-low on the bus).

The problem is that this difference in timing isn't modeled by Vice, and on a 1541U with a minimal IEC-cable the signals appear to change quickly enough that the probability of this happening is negligible. So this was a case where the emulation was "too good", causing a very real bug to be hidden from developers.
2016-02-28 20:36
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 another problem is that the clock speed of emulation (and 1541U/chameleon) is too perfect - it can vary quite a bit on real drives (and C64s!) - i'd always make the timing so one cycle more or less is OK, else its too much on the edge and could randomly fail on real machines.
2016-02-28 21:16
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 Actually, I think STY $dd00 must finish one cycle before the end of BIT $1800 in order to be picked up, so this would put us back at 1.4us. Do you have experimental data that indicates otherwise?

Maybe next time when I have access to my gear I could measure this. But if STY $DD00 needs finishing one cycle earlier then STA $1800 might need this as well. And then it's zero sum possibly. But it's CIA vs. VIA so there could be some difference.

If the sender changes two signals (say, Data and Clock) at the same time

Yes, I've seen this too ;) As the X1541/PC64 PCLink (connected to IEC/Userport) in IDEDOS needs to be as fast as possible the C64 only reads the port once for handshake and data.

The timing problem was solved on the PC side. It updates the data and handshake in two writes even if both are controlled by the same register.
2016-02-29 07:29
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 So, only if explicitly asked to run on a real 1541, because of the awesome flip disk screen, with the risk of crashing and delaying the compo, else it's 1541U? Not that I care, I'm working on a one filer. Looking forward to the 64+ PETSCII entries. :)
2016-02-29 08:03
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 I tried adding one safety cycle per bit pair in the transfer routine. This caused an average slowdown of 1.5% for my benchmark scenario.



Crosses are bitfire 0.3, just to get some perspective.
Hollow circles are the latest unreleased Spindle with the original (fast) transfer routine.
Green circles are the latest unreleased Spindle with the new (possibly more robust) transfer routine.

I'm thinking that perhaps the robust version should be default, and the fast version available as an option. But on the other hand, nobody has reported any actual issues with the fast code on real drives, so this decision would be based on fear, more or less. Spindle users, what do you say?
2016-02-29 08:13
Cresh

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354		 Guys, this discussion is extremely interesting, but is not about X16 compos.
2016-02-29 09:42
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369		 We can has loadercompo?

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread. Here's a new one: Fastloaders & serial transfer timing
2016-02-29 12:48
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074		 Quote: So, only if explicitly asked to run on a real 1541, because of the awesome flip disk screen, with the risk of crashing and delaying the compo, else it's 1541U? Not that I care, I'm working on a one filer. Looking forward to the 64+ PETSCII entries. :)

Standalone or two computer 1541U still shows flip disk parts, without freezing, just like with a real 1541.
2016-02-29 21:22
AlexC

Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 298		 Quote: The Turbo chameleon takes over the Ram and the CPU via its own core even when connected to the C64.

This opens the possibility of some cheating via activating turbo mode from within the program when required :-) I would guess the testers at the party would somewhat need to either trust the coder(s) or test it on something else before

You can disable turbo feature from TC menu. I just don't remember if in such case you are still enable to re enable it from c64 end.
2016-02-29 21:26
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 you can always reenable it.....

imho compo machine can only ever be a genuine C64 - you cant even trust a C128 (graham will cheat =P)
2016-02-29 22:12
Morpheus

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152		 Quote: 2sid, and even a unlimited amounts of sids would be fun, like just mount up like 30 sid voices and compose all the way... I would love that... and the petscii also. A more weird one would be a sprite compo - still sprites with plexer and a animation sprite compo, run from c64 without screen on... just sprites (and rasterbars maybe)... suggestions only!

Love the sprite idea!
2016-02-29 22:44
Danko

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 19		 Dude.

If we choose to compete at X '16.

Any y'all expect us to submit our intent and what not here at this stage?

I may probably not be of the common main interest. Still, in context I would claim the following:

Nah.

See yah at X, manneken!

/Danko/Fairlight
2016-03-06 00:50
Copyfault

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 475		 Quoting MagerValp
Pro tip: run 1541U on one C64 with the IEC cable connected to the other C64. You have 6581 and 8580 set up anyway.


Sorry that I dare to visit the offtopic-zone but I must comment on how absolutely "ueber" this pro-tip is: though I'd basically also like to see the demos running live from a real 1541, using 2 C64s as suggested by MagerValp solves (nearly) all issues with such simplicity! True brilliance!!!
2016-03-06 19:08
Bob

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 71		 I would suggest a 16K demo compo

1. Enjoyable demo parts such as in DOTY
2. Easy entry level for many demo creators that has no mega demo but still has some smaller stuff to show at X.
3. with 16K you can have propper Gfx and Music.
4. I bet this would attract a lot of entries which would be the main purpose of a compo!

just my 2 cen(t)sors ;)
2016-03-07 06:45
Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504		 with 16k, also Bob will never take part, too less memory :-D
2016-03-07 06:56
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 463		 A " just for emulators" without limits compo?
After all, emulators are part of nowadays scene...
2016-03-07 08:22
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 479		 Quote: A " just for emulators" without limits compo?
After all, emulators are part of nowadays scene...

Yes, and a csdb forum posting compo as well, after all that's part of the scene too...
2016-03-07 13:36
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645		 Quote: A " just for emulators" without limits compo?
After all, emulators are part of nowadays scene...

save it for a party with a wild compo...


(besides, emulators aren't necessarily part of the scene any more than web browsers or IRC clients are. what the fuck are you smoking? :D)
2016-03-07 13:57
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 463		 Quote: save it for a party with a wild compo...


(besides, emulators aren't necessarily part of the scene any more than web browsers or IRC clients are. what the fuck are you smoking? :D)

(without browsers or IRC clients, 99% of us would not be part of -the scene- now. And then, with that sort of nickname you have, how do you talk about stuff to smoke? =D =D =D ;) )
2016-03-07 14:12
Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504		 Without all that shit, there'd finally be time again for doing demos :-D
2016-03-07 17:24
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 Quote: I would suggest a 16K demo compo

1. Enjoyable demo parts such as in DOTY
2. Easy entry level for many demo creators that has no mega demo but still has some smaller stuff to show at X.
3. with 16K you can have propper Gfx and Music.
4. I bet this would attract a lot of entries which would be the main purpose of a compo!

just my 2 cen(t)sors ;)

A normal (202 blocks) onefile demo is a lot more entry level. Needs less optimisations. And has room for even cooler graphics and music.
2016-03-07 20:10
Digger

Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 427		 A technical thought regarding PESCII compo:

Would you allow ECM mode (64 chosen PETSCII chars aka custom but still system based charset) to qualify as valid compo entry?

I think that could be really cool, more colors plus being able to mix upper and lower case chars together.

Thoughts?
2016-03-07 20:19
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 imho if a random terminal program cant show it - fuck off (that also means black for background color. period)
2016-03-07 20:23
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086		 Quote: imho if a random terminal program cant show it - fuck off (that also means black for background color. period)

imho random terminal programs can fuck off, they not define whats petscii.
2016-03-07 20:29
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 actually they do, more or less - PETSCII is the set of control codes and characters available for commodore text terminals.
2016-03-08 05:53
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 As if graphic artists using plain PETSCII care about terminals and black backgrounds. Personally I'd allow it, just for the sake of creativity.
2016-03-08 08:16
Firehawk

Registered: Aug 2011
Posts: 31		 Personally I don't think 16K or 4K is any point, since we already ARE running on a low-end computer :-). However I think a separation between one-filer and multiload-demos is a good idea. There are already a lot of entries to X, and perhaps this will increase the number of demos in total?

On the more crazy side, perhaps a wild-compo could be arranged, but with the restriction that the hardware (C64-based) should be provided (if customized) and the demo/effect shown in realtime (i.e. no pre-recording). Think about it: several C64's running in sync, huge amount of SIDs, custom target driven by 6502 etc. Just a thought.

edit: and please - no bodypainting compo, at least provide out-of-scene models ;-)..
2016-03-08 08:57
Soren

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 		Electric boogie contest!... ehrm no!
2016-03-08 09:30
Conjuror

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168		 Why not replace all the compos with one giant pissing contest? Really, its what its all about anyway :D
2016-03-08 11:04
Bob

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 71		 I like the idea of a single demo part compo. Size doesn't matter ;) meaning 16k or 64k etc..

but then the question is if one file demo can still have multi parts. so I believe the category in that case needs to be set specifically for a single part demo.. meaning one part!.
2016-03-08 11:17
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645		 Quote:
Personally I don't think 16K or 4K is any point, since we already ARE running on a low-end computer :-)


That doesn't mean you're not allowed to challenge yourself further.


Quote:
but then the question is if one file demo can still have multi parts.


Why wouldn't it? the clue is in the name. It's called a "singlefiler" not a "singleparter".
2016-03-08 17:19
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357		 Quote:
There are already a lot of entries to X, and perhaps this will increase the number of demos in total?

shouldnt the goal rather be to increase the overall quality? do we really need another 2 hours compo with mostly logo+scroller type demos? *shrug*
2016-03-08 17:46
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 True that. Lets hope for demos without sluggish transitions. But we can only hope.
2016-03-08 18:47
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088		 @Hein, great to hear you're gonna show up again! :)
2016-03-08 20:42
Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317		 Hein is comming?
Well i thnk i have to reconsideer my apappearance at the X - to see my all time guru and meditate some beer with him ;)
2016-03-14 11:37
Hero

Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 90		 Quote: The 28th of october is still far away but getting closer and closer. The organizers have been getting busy and are now well underway to get everything sorted out for another smashing X!

Since entry delivery and running the compos at X14 went quite smooth and voting is now done in realtime, we believe we may have room for 1 or 2 more (small/fun) c64 competitions. Like a PETSCII compo or a 4k compo, or maybe you guys have an idea?
Or perhaps you think the straightforward demo/music/gfx compos are enough.

Let us know :)

Hero and Fist are coming. Will talk to Gene,Sauron,Rocky,Richie and
more.... We are getting old, so do this when we still are alive :)

Hero/ILS

Harry
2016-03-14 17:57
Compyx

Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631		 Quote: True that. Lets hope for demos without sluggish transitions. But we can only hope.

My idea of 'transitions' is still pressing space and Sledgehammer II kicking in ;)

It would be really nice to see you Hein! Guess I'll have to up my pixeling a bit. Even more if Lars would show up. But I like the challenge...
2016-03-15 07:20
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 945		 If all goes well, I'll be visiting this year to meet my fellow generation nerds again.

@Bas: Hah, not to worry, I don't recall I ever participated in the X graphics compos, except X'97 and that was on the PC platform. :) [cheat] And I even cheated there, just so I could beat Lars two times. [/cheat]
Will be nice to have a chat again.
2016-03-28 20:33
Rudi
Account closed

Registered: May 2010
Posts: 125		 4k intro compo would be great, since I have one in the works. Either that or I'll release the 4k at another demoparty.
2016-03-29 08:24
Bob

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 71		 I have a winning contribution for the 16K kompo ;) or perhaps 17 K... hmm 20K? shit I need music... 21.22.23......... ok ok I give up since its mee
64K compo :P no more bytes left...
2016-03-29 13:29
hqn

Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 22		 Quote: If all goes well, I'll be visiting this year to meet my fellow generation nerds again.

@Bas: Hah, not to worry, I don't recall I ever participated in the X graphics compos, except X'97 and that was on the PC platform. :) [cheat] And I even cheated there, just so I could beat Lars two times. [/cheat]
Will be nice to have a chat again.

The Hein Holt Fanclub will be present to properly hail the second coming of the prodigal son.

hqn/scl
Hein Holt Fanclub member, president, treasurer
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4 Nostalgia  (9.3)
5 Triad  (9.2)
Top Musicians
1 Rob Hubbard  (9.7)
2 Jeroen Tel  (9.7)
3 Mutetus  (9.7)
4 Jammer  (9.6)
5 Linus  (9.6)

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