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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Votes
Why do some of you hide your votes? HMM? this makes no sense. And stop downvoting people just because you do not like them.
This database is supposed to be accurate, not a place for you to continue with your stupid grudges and scene wars.
a note to perff: since Secret Man, WDR etc have been deleted from this, I think you should also remove all their votes.
and get rid of this hidden voting, if people cannot publicy stand by their vote choices, then they shouldn't be voting at all.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i keep my votes hidden. i rarely vote, but if i do its either 0 or 10. i can stand for it for all i care, but i still think votes should be hidden. who cares who voted what anyway?
i'd think a much more important feature would be to a) remove the possibility to change your vote after voting and b) see the voting result before having voted. |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
<... agrees with groepaz
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: i keep my votes hidden. i rarely vote, but if i do its either 0 or 10. i can stand for it for all i care, but i still think votes should be hidden. who cares who voted what anyway?
i'd think a much more important feature would be to a) remove the possibility to change your vote after voting and b) see the voting result before having voted.
Why do you want to remove the possibility to change a vote after voting? After all, people can and will change their opinion over time. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: i keep my votes hidden. i rarely vote, but if i do its either 0 or 10. i can stand for it for all i care, but i still think votes should be hidden. who cares who voted what anyway?
i'd think a much more important feature would be to a) remove the possibility to change your vote after voting and b) see the voting result before having voted.
I wonder what would you say if Perff finally made the votes public. Which is the easiest way how to increase the credibility of the ranking here. |
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Trazan
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
Stupid thread, I will downvote this!
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: i keep my votes hidden. i rarely vote, but if i do its either 0 or 10. i can stand for it for all i care, but i still think votes should be hidden. who cares who voted what anyway?
i'd think a much more important feature would be to a) remove the possibility to change your vote after voting and b) see the voting result before having voted.
Quote:i keep my votes hidden.
Aha! :)
Quote:who cares who voted what anyway?
Me?
*hide again* |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
I agree, voting should be public.
------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/SwappersWithAttitude |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I never vote, it's too subjective ;-)
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Why do some of you hide your votes? HMM? this makes no sense. And stop downvoting people just because you do not like them.
This database is supposed to be accurate, not a place for you to continue with your stupid grudges and scene wars.
a note to perff: since Secret Man, WDR etc have been deleted from this, I think you should also remove all their votes.
and get rid of this hidden voting, if people cannot publicy stand by their vote choices, then they shouldn't be voting at all.
Fungus, just out of curiosity... Do you really think "Jack Alien" is a such bad cracker that he deserves a "1"? Or is it that you just don't like him? :) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Yodelking, at least it wasn't anonymous ;-) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
I have downvoted quite a lot demos when some1 kicked out soiled from the top 10. :) I will fucking not care and others shouldnt fucking not care either about the votesystem as long anonymous downvotes are possible this is anything but something you can trust. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Maybe it would be more fair if there was a possibility to "complain" to the system about unfair votes. Then people with a lot of complaints could get bad karma, and count less in the weighted average.
This could actually be done without making the votes public, although I still think they should be public, because you are more reluctant to cheat when everyone can see what you're doing. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
@ Cruzer: come on, this is a scene database, not the municipality office!
I don't want to complain about others in whatever formal or karma way. Voting is useless too, because it's not possible to make a fair system within the scope of this website.
For me it's something the kids play with.
Now, let's code, pixel & compose and stop babbling about these inferior stuff. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:I wonder what would you say if Perff finally made the votes public. Which is the easiest way how to increase the credibility of the ranking here.
i wonder when he will finally make a public list of the people who have admin powers so he could get back the last bit of credibility he lost in the macgyver incident.
Quote:Why do you want to remove the possibility to change a vote after voting? After all, people can and will change their opinion over time.
one of the most important general rules when doing a poll is to not show any numbers to a participant before he voted, since that always influences the result. if you want to reflect peoples change of opinion you need to make another poll, another time.
and yes i know its not practical in the context of this website, yet another reason why the voting stuff is totally flawed =)
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Yep, I stand by my votes.
If I vote you a one, that's because I honestly think you suck.
And I want you to KNOW that it I think you suck.
If I vote you a 10, I want you to know also. Hidden votes is crap... they mean crap. It's like cheated votesheets in mags, worthless!
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote:Why do some of you hide your votes?
Only some???
Unfortunately too many hide their votes.
Quote:HMM? this makes no sense.
Yes, it makes NO sense.
Quote:And stop downvoting people just because you do not like them.
Downvoters should get arrested.
Quote:This database is supposed to be accurate, not a place for you to continue with your stupid grudges and scene wars.
Right!
Quote: and get rid of this hidden voting, if people cannot publicy stand by their vote choices, then they shouldn't be voting at all.
Please, could we finally have public votes? Thanks! |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
This has been discussed one thousend times before, and most of the time only the public side shows.
I am pro hidden votes.
I dont want to get PMs like "Why did you downvote me? All other gimme a 10 and you only give me a 7!!!"
If the public voting gets implemented, i will stop voting.
And I am sure I am not the only one.
Have Fun,
Zed
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote:If the public voting gets implemented, i will stop voting.
This is the idea behind public voting. It hopefully will keep away people that only make hoaxes.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: This has been discussed one thousend times before, and most of the time only the public side shows.
I am pro hidden votes.
I dont want to get PMs like "Why did you downvote me? All other gimme a 10 and you only give me a 7!!!"
If the public voting gets implemented, i will stop voting.
And I am sure I am not the only one.
Have Fun,
Zed
I would'nt care about that if I was maintainer of this site. ;-) One of Perff's argument for hidden votes was fact that he was afraid of having too few votes. I wonder what you pro-hidding voters would you do if there was public voting from the beginning. I don't think you wouldn't vote here or there. Maybe you would be afraid to give too much negative voting, but tehre are cases of people who are not afraid to show their opinion publicly. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Actually it would be quite useful if it was possible to enable/disable voting for certain releases. Or hide the "user ratings" & "votestatistics".
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
or to give electroshocks to nata over the internet |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Do you want to tell us something? |
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stash
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 343 |
Quote: Do you want to tell us something?
@bamu: probably that u suck....
i like to downvote in the morning |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Quote: I would'nt care about that if I was maintainer of this site. ;-) One of Perff's argument for hidden votes was fact that he was afraid of having too few votes. I wonder what you pro-hidding voters would you do if there was public voting from the beginning. I don't think you wouldn't vote here or there. Maybe you would be afraid to give too much negative voting, but tehre are cases of people who are not afraid to show their opinion publicly.
If there would have been public voting from the beginning, i would have not voted.
If you want public votes, goto pouet.
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stash
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 343 |
Quote: If there would have been public voting from the beginning, i would have not voted.
If you want public votes, goto pouet.
but i wanna see who u downvote :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: If there would have been public voting from the beginning, i would have not voted.
If you want public votes, goto pouet.
I don't want to argue. I just tell you that I wouldn't care if your reason not to vote was that your votes wouldn't be hidden. ;-) As for "go pouet" is concerned. Why do you think I need this kind of advices? ;-) I'm not emotionally blackmailing perff about anything I just try (for years) to persuade him to make this database completely transparent. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
sorry creamd, wasnt meant personally.
i just wanted to point out, that public voting (like on pouet) might provoke all kind of unwanted behaviour..
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote:provoke all kind of unwanted behaviour..
Well, I guess we already have this "unwanted behaviour" just becuase the votes are hidden. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: sorry creamd, wasnt meant personally.
i just wanted to point out, that public voting (like on pouet) might provoke all kind of unwanted behaviour..
I understand the point about possible complaints in PM, but it's much better than now when there is possibility to downvote persons's releases just out of hatred and not be spotted by anyone except admins. Admins can't watch everything. I think we can both agree that manipulative voting is an unvanted thing. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
I think the only way of making downvoting irrelevant is to have many, many votes. And making the votes public wont give you more votes, more the opposite.
PS: I think downvoting was/is/will always (be) there.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: I think the only way of making downvoting irrelevant is to have many, many votes. And making the votes public wont give you more votes, more the opposite.
PS: I think downvoting was/is/will always (be) there.
This is also Perff's argument. It's partially acceptable, but that won't get rid us of manipulative voting and making of fake accounts. If voting was public you could ask.. who is that "butazomba" , "dork123"? etc? (the names are invented)
P.S. I think that only real, identifiable persons/sceners should be allowed to vote. Not someone with fake-name. |
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maestro
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 727 |
why do we keep going over this subject aswell???
how are we going to ever get a voting system that will work when everyone has different ideas about how good something is???
why do we need a voting system anyway??? why dont we just allow comments to what ever instead of voting???
i mean who cares now anyways about votes???
unless someone can come up with a better fairer system than the one we have i dont think we should even discuss this subject because it will always highlight problems
ive personally never ever released anything for the c64 yes im a lamer but i would rather constructive criticism and general facts about what ive done than getting a 1 - 10 but more to the point i would be just happy with my own work full stop |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quoting maestro"ive personally never ever released anything for the c64"
yes you did!
Fuzzball Preview +
;) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: why do we keep going over this subject aswell???
how are we going to ever get a voting system that will work when everyone has different ideas about how good something is???
why do we need a voting system anyway??? why dont we just allow comments to what ever instead of voting???
i mean who cares now anyways about votes???
unless someone can come up with a better fairer system than the one we have i dont think we should even discuss this subject because it will always highlight problems
ive personally never ever released anything for the c64 yes im a lamer but i would rather constructive criticism and general facts about what ive done than getting a 1 - 10 but more to the point i would be just happy with my own work full stop
Discussing it is important, because as you see it's important for many people having different views on the same subject.
As for being satisfied with constructive criticism (comments) and removing "point system" I agree ;-). Doint it vice versa would be also good... ...e.g. rule/system that voter must provide comment/reasons together with his vote ;-))) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Voting allows the scene to give its opinions.
You are rated by your Peers. (???!)
Seems stupid not to know what peers think what. No point.
Those that keep your votes hidden, you just don't feel strongly enough about your votes to tell anyone who msg's you about it to piss off. Or ignore them altogether.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Okay, let me throw in yet another option. No, this time I won't bring forward the "anonymous voters can only vote 4-7", this is a new one.
With all this talk about 'personalizing' csdb (people can decide if they want to see cracks, people can decide if they want to see plus/4 stuff), why not make it so that people can decide if they want to see scores based on ALL votes, or on TRANSPARENT votes only? That way everybody can still vote however they want, but it's up to the viewer to decide if they want to take anonymous votes in consideration.
Or maybe even don't see any scores at all. Personally, I like the charts, and many with me. For the people that don't think it's necessary, they should be able to switch it off and leave us ranking-lovers just be ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
excellent idea. also make an option to see the ranks using normal, weighted, and "secret csdb algo" averages please. |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
My vote goes to Twoflower. He would make a great president. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
As I candidate to the title of CSDb presidentship, I first want to state how high I hold this establishment, these traditions and the fruitful discussions we all hold here. If you choose me for president I will do everything in my power to improve the democracy here, to be a voice for the weak-voiced and and a mediator in conflicts. Know this - I would do anything to keep the discussion free and filled with tolerance and compassion. Do also know that I will defend these values with the power invested in me.
To cast a vote on me in the election is a vote for stability, a vote for trust and freedom. Cast your vote, citizen. You won't regret it. I would also like to thank Dane for the tremendous support he's given me during this campaign, and I would like to seize the opportunity to announce him as my candidate for vice-president.
Once again, I thank you all. God bless you. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
@2F: Was that a qoute from Bush? :D |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Yes, I'd make a good president of Vice. Use it all the time. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
@Jackasser:
Yes! Nice that you spotted it - it's some lines from Kate Bush - Hounds of Love, the LP released in 1985 (including "Running Up That Hill", amongst other hits). Didn't know you were a Kate Bush fan aswell? And while we're at it - I also got the unconditionary support from Burning W Bush for my campaign.
If you keep up the good work, you'll become CCS64-President in notime (the Vice-president post will, as earlier stated, be occupied by Dane). |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
pWNED! |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Again people are downvoting and hiding their votes, YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO BALLS AND SHOULD NOT VOTE!
Other vote without even checking a SINGLE RELEASE from the people they are voting for. Keep your misinformed/non informed opionions to your damn selves! It is absolutely RETARDED.
I think the vote sections and possibly ENTIRE CSDB should be divided into CRACKING SCENE and DEMO SCENE. If your never in the DEMO SCENE don't vote in it! Same as cracking Scene if your never in the CRACKING SCENE then don't vote in it!
ONCE AGAIN, REMOVE HIDDEN VOTES!!! I am tempted to just delete my entire profile and Nostalgia's aswell!
Is this a SCENER DB or not? THEN ALSO DELETE NON SCENERS!
This is becoming MORE and MORE a giant JOKE EVERYDAY and a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.
on a final note, an giant FU to you all!
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Yeah, what the hell is going on with the hidden votes crap?
This database should be promoting scene-values. In the old days a votesheet or a BBS-votesheet showed who made the votes. People were proud to say/show who they voted for and were willing to back up why they made their choice.
This scene spirit should be reflected here on this database. This modern "hide voter identity" nonsense should be removed, IMMEDIATELY!!
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
Why not include the functionality of polls on this site? I mean.. then you guys with strong opinions could decide once and for all what to do concerning various issues. There will always be people around with opposite oppinions, so obviously some kind of METHOD is needed to come to an end with the endless discussions. Personally I am more tired about people debating the site itself rather than on topic stuff. Who cares about the voting and such shit anyway? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
This database should be promoting scene-values. In the old days a votesheet or a BBS-votesheet showed who made the votes. People were proud to say/show who they voted for and were willing to back up why they made their choice.
oh come on... ppl voted for themselves, "upvoted" their own groups, their friends, "downvoted" whoever they didnt like, and if there werent enough votes they were made up :)
not very different from what is going on here imho =P
what made a lot more sense back then though was the process of collecting the votes. results were not shown to people until the poll was over (flaw number one here), and the poll was restarted from scratch frequently to reflect changing opinions (flaw number two here).
and uh, the votes for mags (i cant say about BBSs, i never even looked at the voting stuff there) werent ever really public" either, its not like they ever published who voted what :)
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Groepaz: I guess things are a bit different for me, being a mag editor, as I saw all the votesheets coming in, who was filling them in etc.
Frantic: yeh, a poll would be nice! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
[quote}
Groepaz: I guess things are a bit different for me, being a mag editor, as I saw all the votesheets coming in, who was filling them in etc.
[/quote}
i was a mag editor aswell back in the 80s - and as such i can say that the charts here are 100 times "better" than they ever were in a mag :) |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Quote:
ppl voted for themselves, "upvoted" their own groups, their friends, "downvoted" whoever they didnt like, and if there werent enough votes they were made up :)
This is true, i have to agree.
+voted under false names, fake handles, type fake groups in,
and so on.. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Quote: [quote}
Groepaz: I guess things are a bit different for me, being a mag editor, as I saw all the votesheets coming in, who was filling them in etc.
[/quote}
i was a mag editor aswell back in the 80s - and as such i can say that the charts here are 100 times "better" than they ever were in a mag :)
Well, I disagree. I preferred the mag charts to the charts here. Both have their negatives but there is a lot more problems here than there were with some of the magazines.
Getting back to the original discussion, downvoting and anonymous voting should be removed. Open a poll to see who agrees <-- THIS is a nice idea!
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i can't see how downvoting can be removed, isnt everyone free to vote whatever he likes? i said it often enough, i always vote either 1 or 10, so all my votes are either up or down votes i guess? =D |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Everyone can vote with 1 to 10 - sure. But by anon. voting these retards can use fake accounts and deliberately award low points (downvoting) or high points (upvoting) to make the chart reflect things how THEY want it to look. Each person should have one vote per release/scener/group only.
Removing anon. voting and voting by fake scene profiles would eliminate help this. And exposing votes from all sceners would promote a more honest and transparent system.
Btw, magazine charts rule! CSDB charts suck! POLL PLEASE! ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
what you are saying pretty much boils down to what i am saying since ages: every account should be linked to a scener profile.
anonymous votes aren't the problem, really - it's a lot of other details that are flawed. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Most magazines followed the basic honesty-approach, as a voter you had to follow:
No votes for yourself.
No votes for your own productions.
No votes for your group(s).
No votes for your group productions.
No votes for your group members.
Because I personally have no problem showing my votes, I struggle to understand why other people have difficulty showing theirs? What are some of the reasons that people would do an anonymous vote? Perhaps they're scared of retribution? Or don't want to undertake the pains of explaining themselves further about their decision? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
I would like to remind you all that downvoting is not allowed here (according to "rules & behaviour" section and we are internally agreed that people who behave this way should be be banned for that.
That includes also the voters that have their votes visible, because that actually doesn't matter. Downvote stays downvote and it can be quite easily spotted.
Until now mods don't have possibility to punish such behaviour but it's a matter of time when that will be implemented.
Greetings to Yoko...
As for the other downnvotings. Contact any of the mods about the problem (provide the link to the downvoted database entry) and we will discuss that internally. We have posibilty to spot the username, check the user behaviour and decide what to do.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
CreamD: amazing, but it still doesn't solve the obvious flaws of the chart system on this BBS.
Admin (where art thou?): Can we have Charts of 2007 seperate to All-time Charts?
Will there be transparency for voters (no anonymous voting, open a poll if your own opinion is too heavy on this subject)?
The rules I mentioned before; can the database be programmed so that there is no way to bypass them?
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: CreamD: amazing, but it still doesn't solve the obvious flaws of the chart system on this BBS.
Admin (where art thou?): Can we have Charts of 2007 seperate to All-time Charts?
Will there be transparency for voters (no anonymous voting, open a poll if your own opinion is too heavy on this subject)?
The rules I mentioned before; can the database be programmed so that there is no way to bypass them?
I agree with votes going non-anonymous and Perff admitted (over ICQ) that he will evntually do it. But we can't do anything about that until he really does (except that bugging him about it constantly ;-)
As for charts for years are concerned. I like the idea. That's actually an improvement. I'm sure stuff released in a specific year could be put into some chart according to type and votes.
You mean those rules? (No votes for yourself. No votes for your own productions. No votes for your group(s). No votes for your group productions. No votes for your group members.) - yes that shoud be possible to implement but that would require the user-account to be linked to the scener profile (as Groepaz suggested).. That's actually quite nice idea. We should require user account to be linked to scener profile in order to be able to vote..
---
All-time charts are IMO kinda problematic to implement in the live-database with diverse ammount votes per item. There can be some "select" and "result rank" for that, but I don't think it could be taken too seriously when ammount of votes mostly depends on curent popularity of groups. For serious effort on All Time charts that could require separate system with clearly identifiable non-anonymous voters (e-mail confirmation of vote from real scener e-mail address). Still that reminds me of varous popular TV contests like "hit of the century" where people for popular favorite songs. The credibility of the resulting rank is highly subjective. That's why I think current system is the best we can get.
I had ideas of counting the ammount of votes, and other factors into account, but that would require to recode the ranking system completely.
And if we take it even further. The year of establishment, ammount of releases (points awared depending on type of release), release achievement, life-span of group and other parameters should be taken into account when deciding the serious ranks. Some of this data could be dug out of this database separatedly, but to get the resulting rank would probably require hours/days of computer calculation.
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Dishy
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: |
CSDb has been online since 2001 now... Somehow, I think it would be a pity, if we remove/reset the votes, which CSDb has got from the masses for about 7 years! Of course the downvote problem should - and will - be solved. BUT - if we just remove all votes in here now, so all users should vote yet again, then I actually fear that the charts/votes could probably appear in a wrong direction! Right now the results of all votes are reflected over 6-7 years, where also many old sceners have been online here to leave their very stamp/vote for groups, productions, persons from their respective scene days, as they remember it. By now some groups, productions and persons have got more than 100 votes from a broad spectrum of people. Also lots of CSDb-users have now voted for more than 200-300 releases etc.
I´m not sure at all, if the charts in here would be more fair, if we should vote all over again, and I think, we´d miss many of the votes from old c64 sceners, who´re not much online at CSDb anymore.
IMO, it could be a big mistake to reset the votes!
Regards,
Rolf/Dishy
*****Once A Scener - Always A Scener***** |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Perff: how hard is it to remove the anonymous feature?
This in itself is a problem, only one admin for an active database. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: CSDb has been online since 2001 now... Somehow, I think it would be a pity, if we remove/reset the votes, which CSDb has got from the masses for about 7 years! Of course the downvote problem should - and will - be solved. BUT - if we just remove all votes in here now, so all users should vote yet again, then I actually fear that the charts/votes could probably appear in a wrong direction! Right now the results of all votes are reflected over 6-7 years, where also many old sceners have been online here to leave their very stamp/vote for groups, productions, persons from their respective scene days, as they remember it. By now some groups, productions and persons have got more than 100 votes from a broad spectrum of people. Also lots of CSDb-users have now voted for more than 200-300 releases etc.
I´m not sure at all, if the charts in here would be more fair, if we should vote all over again, and I think, we´d miss many of the votes from old c64 sceners, who´re not much online at CSDb anymore.
IMO, it could be a big mistake to reset the votes!
Regards,
Rolf/Dishy
*****Once A Scener - Always A Scener*****
Who said that votes should be reset? I didn't notice anyone requesting that!? That would be plain stupid of course. |
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Dishy
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: |
Quote: Who said that votes should be reset? I didn't notice anyone requesting that!? That would be plain stupid of course.
There have been lots of debates about this topic, and I remember in an old thread, we were talking about a whole new chart system, where maybe also old votes were removed. Some users in here, wouldn´t mind if all votes were reset.
That´s why I made my post about my point of view!
*****Once A Scener - Always A Scener***** |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
Who said that votes should be reset? I didn't notice anyone requesting that!? That would be plain stupid of course.
if you want to reflect peoples changing opinion over time, you must reset the votes and make a new poll.
whats plain stupid is when you make a poll, and then let people change their votes after showing them the current result.
and yes i know the fiest is not practical for a website like this - hence the charts will always be flawed.
who gives a damn anyway, charts were nonsense in mags in 1988, and they are nonsense on the web in 2007. live with it =P
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: Quote:
Who said that votes should be reset? I didn't notice anyone requesting that!? That would be plain stupid of course.
if you want to reflect peoples changing opinion over time, you must reset the votes and make a new poll.
whats plain stupid is when you make a poll, and then let people change their votes after showing them the current result.
and yes i know the fiest is not practical for a website like this - hence the charts will always be flawed.
who gives a damn anyway, charts were nonsense in mags in 1988, and they are nonsense on the web in 2007. live with it =P
Quote:and yes i know the fiest is not practical for a website like this - hence the charts will always be flawed.
Yep. It's kinda open to attempts for manipulation of results. Subtle or heavy.
Quote:who gives a damn anyway, charts were nonsense in mags in 1988, and they are nonsense on the web in 2007. live with it =P
I agree that it is nonsense to take top charts too seriously, but that doesn't mean the abuse of voting system should be tolerated.
Voting shouldn't be used to show personal relationship towards the voted group/person/release. Although positive manifestation of such prejudical "personal preference" (=upvoting) could be (and usually is) tolerated. Negative manifestation of subjective animosities causes misundertanding and problmes (notice why this topic was "kicked back", Fungus who was upset on someone who downvoted something).
Latest visible example of such maligant behaviour was downvoting of A-Man who composed music for release by the Troublemaker of Crypt. The release was downvoted, the music was downvoted, and what's the worst the respected and well know author of music A-Man got downvoted too. This blatant example of how voting system is misused. 29% of all votes casted by Yoko are downvotes of people/groups he hates or dislikes or their releases. He got banned once for the same behaviour before. Now he did the brave thing of making his votes public (while removing his scener account) and continues in the abuse of the voting system on selected group of "enemies".
As I said in the beginning. There is no reason to take the charts too serious. But we shouldn't ignore the obvious malicious voting. If this turned to be a standard way of handling your scene enemies, results would get even worse. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i still cant see the problem. a few individuals "downvote" people they dont like? so what? if the votes of these few individuals have enough impact on the result to significantly change it in a "wrong" way it only means one thing: the result is calculated on too few votes. given enough votes, up- and downvoting is irrelevant. given too few votes, the calculated result is irrelevant - in any case, with or without up or downvoting. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946 |
What's bad about emotional up or downvoting? If I don't like someone, I will downvote him or her. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote: What's bad about emotional up or downvoting? If I don't like someone, I will downvote him or her.
indeed. it doesnt have to "turn" to be a standard way of handling your scene enemies - it always has been =D |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: What's bad about emotional up or downvoting? If I don't like someone, I will downvote him or her.
Emotional? If you constantly downvote every release the scener produces with 1 is it emotional or purposeful? If 29% of someone's votes are 1 is it emotional or purposeful? But anyway. Tell that to Fungus and other people who complaint ;-).
I gave my reasons why I think it is bad to tolerate it and why I see it as an abuse. If this is tolerated it will became a habbit. Few days ago I explained to one person why downvoting is wrong and he argumented.. they downvoted me so I did it back. I told him that this is not wanted behaviour here. (even according to rules). The person removed it's down-votes.
Few days ago some new account was registered and downvoted selected group of people that was only purpose of the account. The account got deleted. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: indeed. it doesnt have to "turn" to be a standard way of handling your scene enemies - it always has been =D
Well I don't want to spread stereotypes, but between some groups of sceners (and nationalities) it was a "standard" way of handling their fellow sceners. If it was standard in their country that doesn't mean it is standard in the world. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: i still cant see the problem. a few individuals "downvote" people they dont like? so what? if the votes of these few individuals have enough impact on the result to significantly change it in a "wrong" way it only means one thing: the result is calculated on too few votes. given enough votes, up- and downvoting is irrelevant. given too few votes, the calculated result is irrelevant - in any case, with or without up or downvoting.
Yes there is system of weighted voting based on user-trust implemented in one of the websites I maintain. It would require to have evaluation of CSDB users between themselves. E.g. everyone could give -5 to +5 points to everyone else in the system. From the whole data set of relationship the +/- "trust" of user's vote could be counted. That way votes from someone who has biggest trust would have the most impact. And votes from someone with least trust would have minimal effect on resulting score.
The calculated "trust" can be used for anything else. e.g. for giving higher level of user rights. E.g. possibility to unlock and maintain locked entries, etc. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
yeah great idea, lets invent another flawed thing to doctor the symptoms of a flawed system! simply raising the amount of votes needed before a result is shown to a reasonable value (5 ??? LOL! and you wonder the charts are crap?) would be too easy i guess :=) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
either stop whining or make them public. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
or make them public
and that would change... what? read it again: given enough votes, up- and down- and public- or nonpublic voting is irrelevant. if you want reasonable charts, you need enough votes. it IS that simple.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: yeah great idea, lets invent another flawed thing to doctor the symptoms of a flawed system! simply raising the amount of votes needed before a result is shown to a reasonable value (5 ??? LOL! and you wonder the charts are crap?) would be too easy i guess :=)
It's basically the same thing but from the opposite point of view ;-). While in your solution (that actually alreay exists here) the number of votes is hard to achieve. In my solution the trust can be obtained relatively easily by voting between the existing users.
Google's pagerank works around similar idea and although it is also open to manipulation (which forced it's developers to count many other factors into the account) the basic idea of "trust" voting works better than anything else invented in the search engine world.
I'm sure this trust-distrust algorithm would work in the closed group of users especially when there is less posibility to have fake user accounts. We are of course discussing this hypothetically coz I don't believe such thing will be ever implemented here (although I could provide the algorithm I use, if Perff wanted it ;-)
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
we've had these votediscussions for a very long time now, and nothing ever changed. I dont think anything is gonna change now, so it's another useless thread... |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Strange Discussion... here my 0.02:
Every real scener should vote like he wants... if all he does is downvoting, why not ?
Votes should not be public. If Votes become public, there will be even less Votes, and _that_ is the real Problem on csdb: too few votes
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
It's basically the same thing but from the opposite point of view ;-). While in your solution (that actually alreay exists here) the number of votes is hard to achieve.
calculating a result based on the votes of 5 users out of 3844 (~0,1%) is not a "solution" - its a joke.
looking at the top 10 groups, the amount of people who voted ranges from 11 (~0,3%) to 137 (~3,6%).
wohoho, some seriously meaningful statistics there! not!
Quote:
In my solution the trust can be obtained relatively easily by voting between the existing users.
please explain how voting and charts are related to "trust" and how giving different people different "power" on their votes would not distort the result even further.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: Quote:
It's basically the same thing but from the opposite point of view ;-). While in your solution (that actually alreay exists here) the number of votes is hard to achieve.
calculating a result based on the votes of 5 users out of 3844 (~0,1%) is not a "solution" - its a joke.
looking at the top 10 groups, the amount of people who voted ranges from 11 (~0,3%) to 137 (~3,6%).
wohoho, some seriously meaningful statistics there! not!
Quote:
In my solution the trust can be obtained relatively easily by voting between the existing users.
please explain how voting and charts are related to "trust" and how giving different people different "power" on their votes would not distort the result even further.
Ok. So we want to achieve the system that serves the best results for majority of the CSDB users.
We can't force them to vote for every single release. But we can achieve that most of them can vote for anyone else around this system and give them from max to minimum trust points. E.g. as in the mentioned site +5 to -5 .
If you have e.g. 10 people and some of them evaluate some others. Based on how they know them (like them, trust them) whatever. Then from this set of relationships the trust rank is compiled. Not everyone has to vote for everyone else. But if someone doesn't have any relationship his trust isn't moved to any direction and stays neutral.
Usually the one who is most trusted is someone who can behave, have some responsibility and is generally accepted by the majority. On the other hand, his trust to some single users from the group of people also gives them authority. It's an intertwined system and resulting trust rank is obtained after some ammount of iterations. I use 100 iterations.
And now the anwer for your question. Someone with no trust attributed will affect the results only slighlty. It can equal to some neutral trust e.g. 50%. Someone with most distrust will go under 50% and someone with positive trust will have bigger impact on results. The way how it will be implemented into the existing "vote counting" depends on how Perff counts the votes, but generally the most trusted user should have closer to 100% efficiency on his votes. And most distrusted user should have closer to 0% efficiency. That means. The more trusted user's voting will have bigger influence on final result than least trusted. Least trusted users will have no very small inflience on results.
In the end you get get fairer results even for small ammount of votes.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
In the end you get get fairer results even for small ammount of votes.
no, you will give more impact to votes by people who are most liked, and take power from people who are disliked.
i would not call that "fair". i would call it up- and down voting =)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: Quote:
In the end you get get fairer results even for small ammount of votes.
no, you will give more impact to votes by people who are most liked, and take power from people who are disliked.
i would not call that "fair". i would call it up- and down voting =)
it doesn't work like this. ;-) it's an intertwined system.. if you simulated it in the reality it would be self-healing. If someone with big trust (e.g. CreaMD) uses his account to upvote and downvote.. then someone else who disagrees with his judgement can lower his trust to the user. The trust develops over the time. Also e.g. CreaMD is the most popular and gives someone unpopular (e.g. Groepaz) trust.. it can increase Groepaz's trust too.. such move can have interesting results on the whole system. I can't preditct how it ends but what I wanted to point out is ,that trust-distrust generally gives healthy results. Especially when it's assured that voters are existing persons (and not fake accounts). Of course this is also hypothetical, because I'm for sure be somewhere in the middle. You too, I suppose ;-). Someone like Zyron, Jazzcat, TMR and such more or less non-conflicting and respected persons would get the most trust. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
it doesn't work like this. ;-)
yes it does, no matter how fancy the way of distributing "trust" is, it boils down to: i like this person, let's give his votes more power. i dislike this person, let's take power from him.
it might be a way to make the result a little bit more "healthy" (mind you, not "fair") - but it still doesnt solve the problem at all, which is like yago said: too few votes.
i'd still say: increase the amounts of votes needed before a result is calculated to a reasonable amount, and a lot of the problems discussed over and over will be gone. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: Quote:
it doesn't work like this. ;-)
yes it does, no matter how fancy the way of distributing "trust" is, it boils down to: i like this person, let's give his votes more power. i dislike this person, let's take power from him.
it might be a way to make the result a little bit more "healthy" (mind you, not "fair") - but it still doesnt solve the problem at all, which is like yago said: too few votes.
i'd still say: increase the amounts of votes needed before a result is calculated to a reasonable amount, and a lot of the problems discussed over and over will be gone.
It's an intertwined system and yes it's not the ultimate solution, but it's easier to get trust rank of hundreds of active voters (and correct annomalies if necessary) than get hundreds of votes for every important release.
You will never get enough votes for some relases.. you will actually never get any votes for most. Just accept it ;-)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
You will never get enough votes for some relases.. you will actually never get any votes for most. Just accept it ;-)
yes, and thus the charts will always be flawed. live with it.
mmmmh wait, did i say that before? =P |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: Quote:
You will never get enough votes for some relases.. you will actually never get any votes for most. Just accept it ;-)
yes, and thus the charts will always be flawed. live with it.
mmmmh wait, did i say that before? =P
Catch 22 |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
You could just remove the entire voting system and charts, that would fix everything!!!!1 :) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: You could just remove the entire voting system and charts, that would fix everything!!!!1 :)
I can do you one better: if we completely remove csdb from the internet we wouldn't have to deal with people fucking stuff up here!
Holla! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946 |
I'm still waiting for my leader TDJ, whom I trust because of the decades of subliminal messages, to give me the instruction to downvote all citizens of CSDb he dislikes most. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
CreaMD: People dont vote enough. Now you want to improve the system, by letting the people vote other people?
And what groepaz said, the numbers are so low, that you cant really use them for any statistics or improvement thereof.
Hell, on every party, there are more voters then for most of the top100 demos here.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: CreaMD: People dont vote enough. Now you want to improve the system, by letting the people vote other people?
And what groepaz said, the numbers are so low, that you cant really use them for any statistics or improvement thereof.
Hell, on every party, there are more voters then for most of the top100 demos here.
Yago. Yes. as I said.
There is is only few hundreds (?) active voters in CSDB. There is no need to maintain relationship (give trust) with inactive users. For example if we have 500 active users there is no need to have complete 500 relationship per user for 500 active users. What such algorithm does is giving the rank of highest and lowest trust based upon trust-distrust relationship.
Why is it so hard for to understand difference between counting weight in advance instead of dreaming about having enough votes for every single item here?
roman |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
I am always hiding my votes. And really, there is nothing unique new with that. Most of scene-voting was hidden to the public in all the disc-magazines.
The votes that are not published in VN can go on anonymous and besides, why should I or someone else have to justify our every damn move here?
By voting anonymously I make a lot of secret connections throughout CSDB releases which by now have grown to three thousand ones. I can switch on some high points no one of you ever will know where they came from.
Think of that next time you happen to wonder how come one of your releases had a 9 in average, after all that could very well have been with the help of my voting. So what is the big deal anyway?
It is just some bonus, hidden and like the toothferry-presents you found under the pillow, if you happened to have some friendly parents who really let you believe in the crap.
Id say 7-10 is a high voting, 5 is in the mid and below that = below average. There are a lot of stuff that will fall under the low voting of 4-6 for some typical rasterdemo. 7-10 for a typical State of the art picture or demo. 1 for utter crap.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
E.S. you are opinionated person and still from all your votes only 4% mark the "utter crap" status. I don't doubt that majority of them were well deserved. But I'm afreaid that you are more like exception than average responsible voter. |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
After a friend of mine deleted my profile my votes (all positive, thanks to all voters) were gone.
Know your names..
:)
Thanks for the positive feedback after the fake releases also.. Never saw them, hehe..
Today i found out that i don't need to see the charts in the right corner. I removed them.. ;)
I don't need a vote system here !
Take a look in the comments and you see if a demo or the stuff is worth downloading it. Read the texts of the CSDB users and you know if this is a cool dude or what..
At last contact him to find out..
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I just see a bunch of lame excuses why people don't vote public.
"I don't want to justify my votes" and shit like that, what a load of bull.
Please don't be a such a god damn spineless jellyfish.
It should be mandatory for voters to leave a comment, why they do or do not like the person/production.
Its totally OK to have an opinion, and its totally ok to not like everything and everybody.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
you too please explain how public votes would make the result any better. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
A anonymous voter is much like someone sneaking up to a billboard and spraying something on it in the middle of the night (I'm not talking graffiti here).
It has no real relevance and amounts to not much more than a act of vandalism.
If all votes were public and a comment would be mandatory to state your opinion, the general quality of the votes would rise. The total amount of given votes might fall, but those lost would be useless background noise anyhow.
If you cant stick up for your opinion and you're to lazy to write at least 1 or 2 lines of what your vote means, then frankly, it doesn't mean shit.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I agree with ED's point on why *he* hides votes, but as for the others hiding?
I got a real chuckle from Stainless Steel:
"If you cant stick up for your opinion and you're to lazy to write at least 1 or 2 lines of what your vote means, then frankly, it doesn't mean shit."
Captures my feeling in one sentence. :)
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tomz
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 39 |
I agree it should be mandatory in order to be able to vote,so no comment and your vote isn't registered,coz its vital to know why you voted the way you did. Make a comment and your vote counts! :)
However hidden votes are the Democratic way of doing things so why would you want to make them public? This I think would just open another Pandoras Box of extra problems for the admin. Votes in mags (at least the ones we released) never had who voted for what,and rightly so.It was chore to do the votes and Im happy to say that Stryyker got that job for TBG most of the time.
If I vote for something that I think is worth a 6,then nothing will make me vote it as a 10 or any other number other than a 6,whats the big deal with people voting as they want to......... :( lol |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
It ain't about the people voting honestly what they think, be it a 3 or a 10 or a 1.
Just make a stand and let the person know why you cast your vote the way you do.
Seriously, a anonymous vote is just not having the balls to stand in for your opinion.
Its nothing less than a hit and run move.
Whine all you want, anonymous voting is just lame.
And please don't start singing songs of democracy about anonymous voting, this ain't the presidential elections 2008.
Anonymous voting has just as many drawbacks, it invites every prick and his dog to deface a productions voting just because he doesn't like the authors hair colour. Fuck that.
If you want to assrape me, then I at least want to know who you are and I want to read a statement about what you dislike about my shit.
Vice versa, if you like my stuff and give a reasonable voting then I want to know what you liked about it and who you are.
This is the CSDb, not the AA or the KKK.
We shouldn't need to hide ourselves or our opinions.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
great ideas here, make votes public AND make an additional comment mandatory! that will surely increase the amounts of votes!
i really wonder what will happen when votes are public, and the results would not change at all (because well, they won't). no way it will only lead to more crap and more flames, nononono thats not possibly an option because not only everyone can stand for his votes - also everyone can deal with someone voting differently than he expected!
(wohohoho it took 5 people to vote trail mix to #1 before DEM! GAWD i can't express how seriously meaningful these charts are to me!) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting groepazgreat ideas here, make votes public AND make an additional comment mandatory! that will surely increase the amounts of votes!
the results would not change at all (because well, they won't). no way it will only lead to more crap and more flames, nononono thats not possibly an option because not only everyone can stand for his votes - also everyone can deal with someone voting differently than he expected!
Well, if you cant stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen.
I don't understand why everyone is acting as if the votes being public would bring the world as we know it to an end.
Just because I like you personally that doesn't mean I have to vote 10 for all your stuff.
Its not about generating as much vote's as possible, it should rather be about generating 'valuable' votes.
Otherwise, why don't we just let it stay anonymous and have Perf write a script that randomly casts alternating votes from 1-10 on all the entries. That's about as useful as how it is now.
PS: Yes, Trailmix being above Deus Ex is irritating. But thats a totally other problem.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
Well, if you cant stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen.
I don't understand why everyone is acting as if the votes being public would bring the world as we know it to an end.
and i seriously don't get why anyone would seriously think that it would change anything (in the sense of "better" results that is). as others already said, votes in diskmags never were public. still everyone agrees that those charts were "better". you should be asking "why is that?"
Quote:
Just because I like you personally that doesn't mean I have to vote 10 for all your stuff.
i agree - yet not everyone is mature enough to act like that, and that is exactly the problem. public votes *might* add some "transparency" or "credibility" (i disagree on both however) - but at the same time they *will* also be a source of outrage and immature actions among those who "can't stand the heat". and hu- even those who "can stand the heat" will find themselves in flamewars because they just can't keep quiet. i promise :=)
hell, i remember when i voted a 1 for MacGyver ... and was spammed with PMs asking WTF i was thinking. LOL. _I_ can stand this for all i care (and i have no problem telling someone to kiss my ass goodbye either) - but surely not everyone is like this, some would be annoyed of such actions enough to leave alltogether (as it happened with many people in the past) and imho thats a bigger loss than not knowing the source of a handful anonymous votes.
Quote:
Its not about generating as much vote's as possible, it should rather be about generating 'valuable' votes.
lol. what you want is a jury of experts then, not a poll among all users. the latter needs as much of equally valueable votes as possible to be statistically relevant in any way. if you only want "valueable" votes then you can remove public voting alltogether, because its the wrong tool for the job.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote:as others already said, votes in diskmags never were public. still everyone agrees that those charts were "better". you should be asking "why is that?"
Because they were hand counted. They were checked for correctness (completeness? whateveR) and the fraud was almost impossible. Can you imagine sending 50 votesheets pretending that they are coming from different persons. Would you pay for such postage? Would you be so naive to believe that such attempt would stay unnoticed, or even unannounced? Votes stayed anonymous, yes, but the person who counted them knew the sources and could spot any anomaly quite easily.
Exactly how SidCompo voting works. There is occasional attempt for manipulation (but not that excessive as in first 2 years).
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote:hell, i remember when i voted a 1 for MacGyver ... and was spammed with PMs asking WTF i was thinking. LOL.
Yes it's kinda hard to have trusted account and see how some people downvote you. Especially when those people smile at you and shake your hands at parties where you meet them. Or when they downvote you to get higher than you in the charts. Or when you are downvoted by the members of the same group (who you actually also happen to know personally). I learned to ignore that because although it's sort of "privilege" to know, it's also a curse. All you can do about it in most of the cases is to ignore it. It's especially funny to meet someone who downvoted you every year and *know*, while he doesn't know that you *know*. Unfortunatelly that's only funny thing about it, because if you told them, they would start to act like slippery eels.. yew.. well. Fork'em'all..
I think Mac earned some of the negative points after the controversy with PTV stuff. I must admit that some of the points are justified because what he has done he probably didn't consult with Perff. Still, if that happened to me and if I was sure that I'm doing the right thing, be sure I wouldn't ignore the vibe or leave the battleground so easily ;-). After all there are rules about behaviour here and believe it or not it's quite easy to recognise retaliatory vote from fair 1. That reminds me of Yoko's 1 on all my scene jobs plus some releases (including demo coded by TDJ which featured my music). That happened before his first ban. Now when I told him to behave (when he suggested suicide to Richard) he gave me 1 as musician after some heated debate. Expert opinion, indeed. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
Because they were hand counted. They were checked for correctness (completeness? whateveR) and the fraud was almost impossible. Can you imagine sending 50 votesheets pretending that they are coming from different persons. Would you pay for such postage? Would you be so naive to believe that such attempt would stay unnoticed, or even unannounced? Votes stayed anonymous, yes, but the person who counted them knew the sources and could spot any anomaly quite easily.
i have to repeat myself again: public votes will not solve this, what you really want is linking every user account to a scener entry.
Quote:
After all there are rules about behaviour here and believe it or not it's quite easy to recognise retaliatory vote from fair 1.
i voted a 1 as "public relation manager" after all the craptalk happened. imho that was very justified =)
however that was just an example of how "public" (in this case, visible to admins) votes only cause more unwanted behaviour. if there is already one nutcase out of 10 (or so so) admins, then i don't want to know how many fruitcakes come out of 3000+ users :=)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Linking user accout to scener entry - I like this idea very much, but Perff would complaint that some users aren't real sceners and that if he disallowed them o vote there would be less votes. I also think that there is possibility for attempts for "takeovers" of abbandoned handles from people wanting to manipulate votes from multiple fake accounts.
Quote:i voted a 1 as "public relation manager" after all the craptalk happened. imho that was very justified =)
That's why I don't complaint. Although I'm sure there are sceners who know Mac as someone who gave them motivation or enough "bugging" to bring their stuff out etc. I'm sure Mac thought he is doing good "public realitons". Well, it's a bit sensitive topic actually. Mac is still doing c64.sk news and stuff and he is doing it good. I would say.. if you do something, it's possible that you will also do some mistakes. That's quite natural. Yet, it's important to be able to bear the responsibility when you did them.
Quote:however that was just an example of how "public" (in this case, visible to admins) votes only cause more unwanted behaviour. if there is already one nutcase out of 10 (or so so) admins, then i don't want to know how many fruitcakes come out of 3000+ users :=)
Yep. I understand your motivation behind arguments defending anonymous votes.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:
Linking user accout to scener entry - I like this idea very much, but Perff would complaint that some users aren't real sceners and that if he disallowed them o vote there would be less votes. I also think that there is possibility for attempts for "takeovers" of abbandoned handles from people wanting to manipulate votes from multiple fake accounts.
a) if this is a scene database, then it should be no problem linking every user with a scener profile. people that have no background in the scene and who dont want to be part of it can go to pouet or something
b) there are always reasons for abuse, obviously. however its surely easier to identify someone who wrongly associates himself with a certain profile than someone who just creates an account not associated with anything at all.
imho the accounts not linked to any scener profiles are much more of a problem than a couple of anonymous votes.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: Quote:
Linking user accout to scener entry - I like this idea very much, but Perff would complaint that some users aren't real sceners and that if he disallowed them o vote there would be less votes. I also think that there is possibility for attempts for "takeovers" of abbandoned handles from people wanting to manipulate votes from multiple fake accounts.
a) if this is a scene database, then it should be no problem linking every user with a scener profile. people that have no background in the scene and who dont want to be part of it can go to pouet or something
b) there are always reasons for abuse, obviously. however its surely easier to identify someone who wrongly associates himself with a certain profile than someone who just creates an account not associated with anything at all.
imho the accounts not linked to any scener profiles are much more of a problem than a couple of anonymous votes.
Yes I agree with Linking user accout to scener entry it's a good idea. (Repetitio est mater studiorum) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
Then why not simply make it a POINTS system like old times.
1=1
2=2
10=10
etc
this is better than stupid percentages which are only for money!
u add all the points and divide by number of votes, to obtain a proper percentage, the math is FLAWED.
HELLO :D
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
that actually makes sense, and at the same time doesnt :) if a lot of people vote "1" for a certain entry it could climb higher in the charts than another entry which gets only "10" votes, just 10 times less. it *would* resemble the good old mag charts though :) |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
(quote)
Linking user accout to scener entry - I like this idea very much, but Perff would complaint that some users aren't real sceners and that if he disallowed them o vote there would be less votes.
If you have some problems because you're not linked to a
scener group, simply join a group.
If you have problems to find one, contact me. :)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: that actually makes sense, and at the same time doesnt :) if a lot of people vote "1" for a certain entry it could climb higher in the charts than another entry which gets only "10" votes, just 10 times less. it *would* resemble the good old mag charts though :)
Actually I wouldn't mind if there were such ranks. For obvious reasons*. ;-)
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*That would give me pretty #1 in webmaster charts with 281 points. Perff would be second with 251pts. ;-))) |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Don't like the idea to make differences here between Sceners and CSDB users. They should support the CSDB but can't vote for that what they support. How stupid ?
"You can help this database grow by submitting information about the productions/groups/sceners/events..."
"But you can't vote if your not a scener.."
Please think about this, deeper.. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote:
Don't like the idea to make differences here between Sceners and CSDB users. They should support the CSDB but can't vote for that what they support. How stupid ?
"You can help this database grow by submitting information about the productions/groups/sceners/events..."
"But you can't vote if your not a scener.."
Please think about this, deeper..
Such thing won't happen anyway. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting BaracudaLinking user accout to scener entry - I like this idea very much, but Perff would complaint that some users aren't real sceners and that if he disallowed them o vote there would be less votes.
So more votes from incompetent persons is actually better than less from people who know what are they voting for? Sir, are you sure Perff actually approves this or you're just assuming? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few. <George Bernard Shaw>
=P |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
I agree with Baracuda! There should be no distinction between the scener and db user, if they are the same natural person. In the beginning I had difficulty ingesting this and I still do concider the scener entry about myself in the database "my page" and it is natural I own it.
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
I don't think that somebody owns public information about himself. If someone releases demos to the public, then this information is public too and is not "owned" anymore. |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
Quote: I just see a bunch of lame excuses why people don't vote public.
"I don't want to justify my votes" and shit like that, what a load of bull.
Please don't be a such a god damn spineless jellyfish.
It should be mandatory for voters to leave a comment, why they do or do not like the person/production.
Its totally OK to have an opinion, and its totally ok to not like everything and everybody.
I categorically disagree - for what little value that has. I believe forced comments when voting, would only result in a myriad of useless comments such as "this is crap", "GREAT!!!" or "WOW!!!11one". Votes should be public, though.
When you have an opinion, just leave a comment. If you can put your comment into a number, vote. :D Maybe votes could be weighted based on the votes that have been given to the voter...
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
I totally agree with Fman.
Jeez I have not seen so many comments on some of the releases here and even tons of downloads and just like hmm 4-10 votes.. ahaha what a load of ****.
Go vote guys and stop writing all your comments. After all the misc. statistics show pretty much who have the large mouth and the little vote-mouse-click-finger around here!
What are all the useless comments if not of the same material as the brown-tounged business as the votes?
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting E.S.What are all the useless comments if not of the same material as the brown-tounged business as the votes?
Say what ?
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: Quoting E.S.What are all the useless comments if not of the same material as the brown-tounged business as the votes?
Say what ?
Don't worry Steel, it's just a Wrath Design kind of way of telling you to vote more often. Furthermore, we should consider ourselves really lucky that they didn't mentioned the opened outlines this time :) |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Quote: Don't worry Steel, it's just a Wrath Design kind of way of telling you to vote more often. Furthermore, we should consider ourselves really lucky that they didn't mentioned the opened outlines this time :)
Yes, that is absolutely right Jailbird, right on the spot!
Hm except of course that it is a Wrath DesignS (note the S that is not outside in the opened side-border :D) way of telling that you all should really stop whining about anonymous votes and weird vote-systems and really try to vote for starters.
I think the misc. statistics tell pretty much who is voting and who is babbling around here. Some are even such good babblers that they are more into active forumposting than voting. It is all too obvious.
And really just to give you all a good example: 100 votes after this and that many (15?) years in the scene is totally useless in my eyes.
Yes, totally useless. Is that all you happen to care about the votes, then please shut this thread down and stop posting! START TO VOTE.
Go look at the top voters, among also Jailbird of course :D and you will start to realize that most of what you write here is.. well... blabla blah... Where are your votes?
Not even my own points could be regarded anything special. But hey. Who has the time right?
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I told it already in one of the hundred vote-related threads. The best way to improve the charts/vote statistics is to vote much more, rather than bitch about it endlessly. So yeah, I absolutely agree with Ed here. |
