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Forums > CSDb Discussions > Mac, Win, Linux etc.
2007-09-12 18:35
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052
Mac, Win, Linux etc.

User Comment
Submitted by Sledge [PM] on 9 September 2007
Now, all I really miss is a Mac OS X version of this painter ;)

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 10 September 2007
Yeah, this Windows-only bullshit needs to stop! Elitepaint, Timanthes, Starcommander, OxPaint, CCS64 - What the fuck is wrong with a little crossplattform support? Don't we as c64- sceners know exactly what it's like to be part of a non-supported minority?
Just use Java, QT, RealBASIC or some other crossplatform toolchain for christ's sake, it's not a science anymore these days!

User Comment
Submitted by JackAsser [PM] on 10 September 2007
for OUR sake, not for christ's sake... :D

User Comment
Submitted by Style [PM] on 10 September 2007
Agreed dk. For now Ill sit here with my Ubuntu box crying into my cornflakes :)

User Comment
Submitted by Scout [PM] on 10 September 2007
For the penguin lovers: Install Wine?

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 10 September 2007
"What the fuck is wrong with a little crossplattform support?"

I tell you what the fuck is wrong with it. It would need to learn a new language and port over 10.000 lines of code in the case of p1. thats wrong with it. that would be 2x-3x all the effort invested so far, to support a minority.

User Comment
Submitted by hollowman [PM] on 10 September 2007
i guess the lack of crossplatform support says something about the users of the other platforms, or the suggested languages and frameworks

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 10 September 2007
Hollow, could you stop pissing on my leg at every possible chance for a change? Thank you! ;-)

Oswald: Why'd you write it without crossplattform in mind in the first place?
That's the problem - People don't think about their choice of tools before they start coding, and then they say it's too much work to port their stuff afterwards!
RealBASIC and especially Java are extremely rich languages these days, I can't think of anything that a c64 image editor or Converter would need that's not supplied!
Or just make your own GUI using SDL like Goattracker or Raydomat, it's fully portable without ANY hassle!

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 10 September 2007
Deekay: because I was unaware of the fact that many ppl doesnt use win, and because I had zero knowledge of modern languages when I have started out and because p1 started out as a little tool for Jailbird wich only knows koala and only can set pixels. anyways according to dcmp p1 works in wine, except one issue which could be fixed imho if the zoom mode would reside in a child window. I think you should try wine regarding 0xpaint aswell. there are chances it will work.

Hearhearhear!

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 10 September 2007
If you want crossplatform tools then make them. That's all there is to it, really. You could bug the coders for the sourcecode and then port it to your favourite cross-platform lib if you wish, but demanding that other people care about whatever platform you're on when they are developing software for free is a bit rash IMO, especially when the projects often start out on a small scale as Oswald examplified.

User Comment
Submitted by Scout [PM] on 10 September 2007
Quote:
demanding that other people care about whatever platform you're on when they are developing software for free is a bit rash IMO

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 10 September 2007
<irony>
I'm sorry if I offended anyone by releasing a windows only tool.
</irony>

:)

I don't know why I need to explain or defend myself, but still; This tool (like Oswald's) was developed for a very small audience. In this case myself. I made it because I wanted a tool that suited my own needs, and in 2003 there were fewer choices than there is today. (Was there any besides ElitePaint?) Also, I wanted the tool fast, and used VB 6.0 since that language gives fast results. At least for me, since I worked with VB on a daily basis.

@Deekay: I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but I get the feeling that you're upset because I didn't have other platforms than Windows in mind when developing this tool. Or perhaps your thinking was in a general sense? Anyway, in this case I didn't develop the tool for you. Only for me. My alternative to releasing it to the public was simply not releasing it. And then noone would benefit from it, and this discussion would never take place. Good thing?

If anyone tries to emulate, please let me know if it works, or not. Thanks!

User Comment
Submitted by Frantic [PM] on 10 September 2007
@Oxidy: Thumbs up for the nice explanations. Some people have to learn not to take stuff for granted.

User Comment
Submitted by Sixx/f4CG [PM] on 10 September 2007
Linux sucks.


User Comment
Submitted by hannenz [PM] on 11 September 2007
looks good - but - hey - i am another linux user.... i don't want to spill oil in the fire here but: anyone tried under wine?! is it working without too much effort?

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 11 September 2007
I'd like to apologize to Oxidy. I did not mean this as a personal attack, it was a general rant on the state of xdev-software in the c64 scene! I'm just really fed up with seeing yet another Windows-only tool that I can't use, that's all!...
So Windows-using c64-Gfxians can now choose between ProMotion, ProjectOne, Elitepaint, Timanthes and OxPaint - MacOS Users get zilch, the only thing that is remotely a pixelling tool (not primarily for c64 though) is Pixen!

I've heard this reasoning time and time again - "I've only done something for myself and I'm sorry it uses .NET/DirectX/VisualBasic/proprietaryM$shit6430, so it only runs on Windows" - Witness what the industry calls "Vendor Lock-in". Why are you using their technologies when you know it's proprietary? Do your Webpages also only work on IE? Well, why not, it's the most popular browser, who gives a shit about Firefox and Safari!
In the c64 scene there's more users of alternative operating systems then in the general public. Maybe you should think for just a second before choosing your tools next time?
Other people seem to be able to do it, even Windows-users! WvLs Pinball Dreams tools are made in Java, so is Crossbows Demosorter. Why do you think they teach Java at Uni and not proprietary M$ technologies? Hell, even for the stuff i programmed myself for my Job (and had programmed!) i made sure it's portable (BASH-scripting, Imagemagick and Java), and that was a completely fixed environment! But who knows what the future holds, it's always good to atleast have the option of switching the OS!
Strangely enough, people that make Software for alternative OSses always seem to have no problem supporting Windows, too! Just think of VICE for a start! So why shouldn't it work the other way around? ;-)

After all the ranting here's something productive: RealBASIC can import VisualBASIC projects. You can then compile for Windows, MacOS X and Linux! Would be cool if you could give it a try!

Oh, and btw, about bitching and moaning about free stuff: ALL the stuff on CSDB is free, so by your reasoning this means I cannot complain about anything.. Besides: We put shitloads of time into making our editors and releasing them for free, too, thank you very much - And guess what: Contrary to Windows-only shit *every* c64-user can use them! 8)


User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 11 September 2007
deekay, give me realbasic and we'll see ;)

User Comment
Submitted by Skate [PM] on 11 September 2007
nice tool, unnecessary discussion.

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 11 September 2007
No problem DeeKay. I can understand your frustation.

I've never used RealBASIC, but I'm downloading atm, and will take a look at it.

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 11 September 2007
First of all: Java is slow and bloated as fuck so it's not really an option for someone like me who actually cares about performance (and I imagine I'm not the only one in the C64 scene). It's bad enough I have to expose myself to it at work. I can appreciate the language as such, but unless you're coding heavy server stuff something even more high level, like Python, is more suitable (feels about as slow, but is much easier to develop in). Please, no Java applications.

That being said, I personally don't understand why so many people have favoured unportable solutions. It's almost as if they have just picked the first technology they happened to stumble upon and stuck with it, instead of making an informed choice of toolkit etc. Most multiplatform toolkits are much easier to work with than doing native Win32 code.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 11 September 2007
"It's almost as if they have just picked the first technology they happened to stumble upon and stuck with it" - exactly my case :) anyways what do you expect this is not the software industry, just a bunch of hobbysts trying to make some tools.

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 11 September 2007
I wouldn't call Visual Basic native win32 code. Eventhough you can chose to compile as native, rather than pseudo code.

What multiplatform toolkit is easier than VB? I can't think of one.

Regardless, the discussion is getting dull.


User Comment
Submitted by Hein [PM] on 11 September 2007
Deekay, how much does a second hand PC with *free* Windows cost these days?

Stop crying like a spoiled kid, please, geesh, start pixeling!

User Comment
Submitted by Fatfrost [PM] on 11 September 2007
Deekay, why don't you just install windows on your Mac? or do you have a poo old g5/4/???
i have vista and osx on the same machine,and on vista
project one works fine.
Cheer up. lol.


User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Hein, Fatfrost: Has it ever occurred to you that not using Windows is not a matter of not being able to afford it but rather a choice? And no, I will never ever buy way overpriced mainstream-Intel-Shit from Apple - and even if I did i wouldn't install Windows on it, just like i never installed Virtual PC! I'm using a Mac to get AWAY from Windows (and Intel), what's so hard to understand about that?

Why is it always only the Windows-users, for whom everything is fine and dandy, that think this discussion is "pointless"?

Oxidy: Thanks for trying RealBASIC! Let us know how it goes! ;-) There's a multitude of RB-extensions for every possible need, I would venture a guess many of them replicate certain special VB-features!

As for Potatoshop: I've used this for pixelling before (right now working on the PD-gfx f.ex.), and it does work. However, for everything regarding color-limitations you have to put it through a converter and then fix the converter bugs again - that hassle can be avoided if you use a real pixelling program made for c64 limitations such as Elitepaint, P1 or Oxpaint!
And as for Java being slow: First of all modern Java-compilers are pretty decent, second: What kind of performance do you think a program needs that's almost entirely about setting single pixels? Third: There's Java2D and -Imaging classes that should be pretty useful (and fast) for jobs like this!

User Comment
Submitted by Trazan [PM] on 12 September 2007
About time to move this OS/Platform war to a forumthread instead of arguing in the comments about the release itself.

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
I agree, this is just getting way out of hand now. Go babble about OS's on a PC gamer forum instead rather than here.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Where'd you get the idea that this is a "OS/platform war"? Is a discussion about racial equality a "race war"? Is a discussion about women's rights a "gender war"?
Why exactly should we not have this discussion here, what would be the point of having it in some "PC Gamer forum"? Games are commercial and cost millions to develop, both of which isn't true for the c64 scene!
And no, I won't take it to the forums, it's right here where it belongs..

I'd venture a guess both of you are using Windows.. It's always so annoying, isn't it, those bitchy people not using the OS-with-abundant-software that you're using complaining about the lack of software support!.. You just don't know what it's like and frankly you just don't give a flying fuck! That's what is generally referred to as "ignorance", and as they say, it *is* bliss after all, right?

User Comment
Submitted by JackAsser [PM] on 12 September 2007
@deekay: "And as for Java being slow: First of all modern Java-compilers are pretty decent, second: What kind of performance do you think a program needs that's almost entirely about setting single pixels? Third: There's Java2D and -Imaging classes that should be pretty useful (and fast) for jobs like this!"

I completely agree and favor Java as the cross platform language of choice. And as for Java being bloat I can agree at some points but on the other hand the redistributable JRE take approx 15Mb. It's not THAT much for anyone. You don't need the JDK to run Java software.

To compare:

The Python windows installer takes about 10Mb.

qt pre-compiled binaries from Trolltech are not free so you need the free open source which is 47.6Mb + mingw which is 69.1Mb.

I know I'm really biased here but really, is Java THAT bloat and slow as people tend to claim compared to other so called cross-platform languages?

User Comment
Submitted by Sander [PM] on 12 September 2007
'What's so hard to understand about that?' - that you're being demanding over someone else's (free) work? None ever asked any atari group to port a demo to c64, just because we CHOSE not to buy an atari..

I always sense a little war to win with every opportunity the iKnow-people feel neglected. So i second Hein, on you being a spoiled kid; it's like you want to take the bus, but you want it to drive by your house...

User Comment
Submitted by radiantx [PM] on 12 September 2007
JackAsser: I work with it. It's shit slow. Just starting up a program takes forever, and the jvm eats up huuuge amounts of memory just for running a small commandline tool. There are a few areas that Java isn't very suited for. Normal desktop use is one.

User Comment
Submitted by d0c [PM] on 12 September 2007
i hate java its like a magnet, it sucks all the viruses to the os that uses it, specially the windows os. as this aint enough it also suck cpu, i once liked java but today i dont. i hope Oxidy continue to use what he use now and dont use java.

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
DK:
Actually I DO give a flying fuck. Personally I don't like how Microsoft is pushing their OS's, but unfortunately (or in the UK anyway) PC's are it's system origin and that we have to follow up on their next version, which makes me sick.... the fucking greedy cunts they are!

Like when I was at school (and now at uni), all systems there are PCs only, which therefore I have no choice but to have a PC at home to transfer my work.... see how difficult it is? And hell no I'm not spending another £1000 or more to get a system that's incompatible with my current storage and projects.

Well, for that matter I just cannot confirm that I don't care about OS's, life is hard isn't it?

Personally I blame Gates and Jobs for all these arguments.

User Comment
Submitted by Fatfrost [PM] on 12 September 2007
Have you tried 'Parallels' for osx? you can run windows progs in that. or was it another prog...well one of them works coz i ran some pc demos with it on a g5 (power pc)....but if oxidy will be kind enough to release source code maybe someone would kindly include it in a vice distro! just imagine a cross development version of vice with pixeler,sprit ed and music ed+ assembler, which would allow you to try your creations out instantly, that way an osx port would always happen and everyone is happy, oh wait...i forgot it's c64 scene, no-ones happy....lol ;-\ just critical mothers......

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Sander: I sure hope the irony of you calling me a spoiled brat doesn't escape you, when in fact is is you Windows-users who get ALL the xdev-software, all the Emulators, all the software you could ever need while MacOS-Users basically get nothing (some notable exceptions!)...
Please, do tell me just in how far I am "spoiled", I'm dying to know!...
Your comparison of an Atari Demo is completely wrong. This is a tool for c64-users - why should not every c64 user be able to use it? If someone does a demo or tool on c64 that does not run on 1541-IIs for some reason, people do bitch and moan and there'll be a fixed version out within hours, that's the way it goes and it's happened multiple times in the past! So what exactly is the difference here?

And please refrain from pigeonholing me as "the iKnow people". Multiple Linux-users agreed with me here, in what drawer do you want to squeeze them in? Besides: I hate Apple more than any PC-user right now probably, but I still think OS X is the smallest pile of shit of them all! ;-)
As for the bus driving by my house: I want to be able to take the bus AT ALL, but I can't. That's the problem!... I don't think all the people that write Windows-only xdev tools intended me to buy a new computer just for their software - If yes, that'd be the epitome of ignorance!...
One final word on Java: Java isn't as slow and bloated as it used to be. It does need quite a bit of RAM, but performance is surprisingly good. Don't tell me, I know what I'm talking about, I've had a Java GUI program developed for professional needs and it had to be fast and responsive and it was!
And this comment about Java sucking virusses is complete bullshit. Compared to Win32-based Visusses the number of Java-virusses is ridiculously small, furthermore with a current JRE they probably shouldn't work anyway...

Summing up: This vendor lock-in bullshit has to stop somewhere. And I'd say something non-commercial like the c64-scene would be one of many places to start it!.. ;-)


User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
"This vendor lock-in bullshit has to stop somewhere."

exactly. stop locking away yourself of zillions of great c64 tools. use win atleast as an alternative.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
java sucks because many ppl have to do administrating jobs in java based client-server setup style enviroment which fucking sucks and sucking fucks, and believe me you would rather have 27 headshots than touch that kind of shitty stinky ugly motherfucking piece of prg, which sends your input over 3000km to a server which tells you after 7 seconds back that you can stick up your input in your smelly warm ass. also it forces you to have 3 window opened just to keep it runing, and takes 1 minute to start it up. I hate java because all of that. :)

User Comment
Submitted by conrad [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oswald: \o/! chill out man, but thanks for your honesty. ;)

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oswald: Well, we're not talking about server-sided Java, thank you very much. We're talking about standalone programs. You know, the kind that I had made, which launched in like 3 seconds and was extremely responsive! Can we stop the incoherent Java-bashing now, this is really quite offtopic!

User Comment
Submitted by Sander [PM] on 12 September 2007
Daniel, Since you made a 'fundamental' choice not to use anything intel related, you inevitably limit yourself from many things, as widely known. Such a principle is a luxury choice imho.

The comparison to the atari demo was not wrong, as the tools were made on a specific platform too. The uber-compatibility idea is feasible due to the limited number of c-64 hardware, and it's not that standard at all. Taking this idea to non-c64-based tools, is a different thing - whereas people will work with the languages and environments they know, it sounds like you try to force them doing different.

And i'm sorry for using the 'iKnow'-word, it was too tempting ;) No offence.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 12 September 2007
deekay, conrad, I just tryed to light you up why some ppl dislike java ;) I believe aswell its fast and kewl offline. saw quite some great demo-fx-test-tools from jackasser / bubis and they were charming but still those administrative softwares makes me shiver whenever java enters my mind :)

User Comment
Submitted by Oxidy [PM] on 12 September 2007
*sigh* :)

Regarding Java:
The discussion is heated as it is, and no more wood is needed on the fire. But I don´t like Java that much, and I can say with certainty that I won't convert 0xPaint to Java.

Regarding REALbasic:
I've installed it and done some brief testing with the conversion tool. I got hundreds of errors and todo's. It's not as easy as I first anticpated. Also, the concept of MDI (multi document interface) is not supported "as such" in REALbasic. You can add a class with MDIWindow properties, but can't have a base window containing other forms. I'll have to rethink the design if I'm to move forward with this. Normally I wouldn't give this much further thought, and would have continues with VB only. However, REALbasic intrigues me a bit. At least enough to experiment with it further.

@Higgie: Thanks for your input.
* Right mouse button pen bug noted. Will fix.
* Drawing ouside zoom mode. I actually like this "feature", and think the pros outweigh the cons.
* The key movement problem in the zoom window is something I don't get. It works as expected in my end. Perhaps we can discuss that in more detail over IRC or something.

@Archmage:
Believe it or not, but I don't have a mouse-wheel on my mouse. :)
Setting the palette is a reasonable request. Currently I've used the exact palette used in VICE. Whether this is the most accurate or not, I don't know. But I guess not.

@Oswald:
"smelly warm ass" haha.. you've always been good with words.

User Comment
Submitted by DeeKay [PM] on 12 September 2007
Oxidy: You make me a happy little DeeKay! ;-) Just try it, if it doesn't fly that'd suck, but atleast you did try, and I'm grateful for that already! ;-) If you need any beta-testing for the OS X build, let me know! So far I've done all I could for anybody willing to port any c64-related software to OS X, be it beta-testing, Icon-Design or else..

Sander: It's not a "luxury choice", it's a political one. Just like some people don't buy brand X because they don't want to support a certain company for whatever reason (unethical behaviour, exploitation of poor countries, environmental issues etc). Speaking of "luxury": What do you think is more luxurious? Windows with P1, ProMotion, Elitepaint, Timanthes and OxPaint or MacOS X with Pixen? 8)
I don't quite see in how far I limit myself through not using Windows and especially Intel (when there's AMD). In fact there's a shitload of commercial software packages and Shareware for OS X. One of the few fields that's left where it's seriously lacking is surprisingly enough homebrew xdev c64-stuff! Hell, i can get more crossplattform homebrew stuff for Dreamcast and Gamecube than I can for c64! If that's not sad, i don't know what is!
The Atari comparison remains completely wrong, because an Atari Demo is not c64-related in any way, hence there'd be no point in demanding a c64-version!
I'm not forcing anyone to use anything, I'm just trying to tell them they'd force ME to use Windows if i want to use their program by offering only a Windows-version! Completely different thing!
Besides, I'm not saying "you have to use environment X". Like said, there's a multitude of ways to go crossplatform: RealBASIC, Java, Python, QT, WxWidgets, SDL and many more.. Just don't use proprietary vendor lock-in shit, everything else is fine by me!
All I'm asking for is that people think just for a minute about portability before starting their own c64-xdev-projects! Is that really too much to ask for? It's not like RealBASIC is any harder to code than VisualBASIC!... Or that Java is harder than C++! Or OpenGL is harder than DirectX! It's just a bit different in some respects, that's all!

User Comment
Submitted by wile coyote [PM] on 12 September 2007
@iAN CooG 'occupies a shitload of HD space' - I have 2x Samsung 120GB Hardrives, so space isn't really an isuue :)

As for the arguement over Apple vs PC. Well I have to admit, I wished I'd brought an Apple in the first place. Until my Windows XP becomes obsolete, I'm stuck with it. Maybe then I will make the switch.

On a side note: I have a feeling Sony could be working on an operating system of their own. It's already on the Playstation 3. Given time, I sure the day will come when Sony will announce they have their own take on Windows that will be superior to MS Windows. This I would like to see. Watch MS share prices nose dive :D
2007-09-12 19:36
gregg
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 56
I'm using multiple Operating Systems: Windows, Linux, OpenBSD and probably OS X in the future as well... and I too cannot understand this stupid closed and ignorant attitude. I don't do much application programming, but whenever I do, I care about cross-platform-ness.
It's really not hard anymore these days, with lots of good and mostly open source frameworks available.

A nice cross-platform environment that I can recommend is Python with PyGTK. Applications run all the same on Windows, Unixens and Mac OS X and it's very efficient to develop stuff with.
2007-09-12 19:38
Danzig

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440
hehehehe... reply:

ever thought about "porting for a platform you don't own" is like seeking the needle in a pile of bullshyte?

ever thought about "using development environments you don't like just for porting you don't care about"?

ever thought about "i can do this with 5 lines of cpp but need dozens of lines of RB/VB/Java/whatever to get the same or even have to develop a custom control", again for porting you don't care about?

shall we all code in languages we don't like or even are not familiar with, just to have it portable (we again don't care about)?

it's for sure that you chose the environment you are familiar with and lots of people coding 3rd-platform-tools just code every day coz its their job. so they chose the environment they use everyday... and to get all this crap tools working on some minor platforms, shall we avoid windows in particular? we can't!
i can't tell the customers of the firm i'm working for to fuck off with their windows-computers and better use linux! they will just chose another softwareproduct and my boss can close the doors... that said, missing rad-tools with handy database-connectivity is another spot (not talking about .NET crap or piss-off-jdbc).

windows is crap, is hated by all developers, by all users, by the pope, especially by deekay ;) but it's there and we have to cope with it... sadly it's desktop-os numero uno...

so, for gods sake, install virtual pc or vmware or whatever virtualizing solution and use that crappy windows... just create 10 virtual machines and on each start one of the 10 applications in WS_MAXIMIZED (even DOS ;) ) and just store the machines state... so you don't even need to log on anymore :D

just mho, sorry...
2007-09-12 20:02
gregg
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 56
@Danzig

So, everyone hates Windows? (FYI: I don't)
Why does everyone still support it, then (by making apps for it)? Even in their free time? It just makes no sense. :)

Also, it isn't about "I want this program work on my Linux/OSX too", but about "I want to make this program usable for an audience as broad as possible" for me.

And I cannot see how one would use VB out of free will. :D
2007-09-12 20:07
Conrad

Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 847
Perff,CreaMD,whoever, will you please get a fucking grip of yourselves and close & remove this thread, along with all those other worthless nata/secret man/retard/bullshit threads? I am sick and tired of seeing all this excrement of insults, retardness, wannabes and unintelligent questions scattered all over this money-donated webspace. This website really sucks nowadays because of it. No wonder ppl have fucking left this place.

Well, I did my bit here, releasing some tunes and uploading some nice classic UK wares and posting some decent coding questions. As for the rest... it's a complete waste of time, so I'll just stay away from this place from now on... benefit of that will be that I have more chance of releasing something... would be a good advice for the pro's too.

peace.
2007-09-12 20:14
Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570
OS Wars are so....1996....and so...Usenet.

Also, what conrad said.

K, you can lock this thread now.
2007-09-12 20:26
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052
I think it's much better that before. Althouhgh this particular comment-discussion went a bit out of control. It should have been stopped much sooner. Lesson for the future...
2007-09-12 20:52
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946
@deekay, start pixeling, dude! :) don't be shy...

as for PC/Mac.. Scout is right, it's so 1996 to think there's a difference. Also c64 was created to make money, Macs are, Windows are, iPods are, Nikes are, it's the same capitalist nonsense, so using 'M$' as argument makes no sense at all, in the end it's all bits and bytes. (we call it 'talk left, fill my pockets on the right')

I can't speak for Linux, though.. maybe that is developed by angels, who knows... flap, flap..
2007-09-12 21:05
Danzig

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440
@Hein: thats what i ment...

typical:
use macosX if you want to rub you penis...
use linux if you rub other penis and hate yourself...
use windows if you hate everything and everybody or just dont care...

see: platform independency is nothing more then supporting multiple platforms... coz there is always more than ONE platform NOT supported... what about Amiga OS, BeOS, CrapOS, AssholeOS, CustomwrittenBackyardOS, PSX, PS2, PS3, PSP, DreamCast, Saturn, N64...
Shall we start voting for importance of OSes?

Or:
Do we already support multiple OSes, coz it runs on Windows 2000, XP, maybe Vista, maybe NT4, maybe Win9X/ME, maybe maybe maybe Win32S *lol*

this leads nowhere, so, pleez close this thread...
2007-09-12 22:38
Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206
Quote: @deekay, start pixeling, dude! :) don't be shy...

as for PC/Mac.. Scout is right, it's so 1996 to think there's a difference. Also c64 was created to make money, Macs are, Windows are, iPods are, Nikes are, it's the same capitalist nonsense, so using 'M$' as argument makes no sense at all, in the end it's all bits and bytes. (we call it 'talk left, fill my pockets on the right')

I can't speak for Linux, though.. maybe that is developed by angels, who knows... flap, flap..


best post in this whole thread IMO.
2007-09-12 23:39
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074
If you want a simple yet powerful crossplatform GUI SDK, give wxpython a shot. Dead simple language (easier than basic), dead simple GUI toolkit (as easy as doing HTML layouts).
2007-09-13 05:16
Trazan

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620
Magervalp just said what I read on a mailinglist :)
Seems like a good solution.
2007-09-13 07:55
Stryyker

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468
Funny thread.

I have a few tools floating around. Some written for a DOS environment and others for a Windows environment. My choice. My time. Some people actually like the Windows environment. MS has reasonably API legacy support through the ages. I like writing Windows applications. If anyone has a problem then they are free to fix things themselves. Not that what I do makes a difference as no one uses what I made thus no impact.

If people choose to not use Windows then that is their choice - may they suffer for being political or making a choice to be a minority.

Was it DeeKay that wrote something like a tool for C64 users should be for all C64 users? Solution there is to make to a native C64 tool otherwise it is like someone else posted - there will be a platform not supported.

The thing about 1541 II not working properly with some productions and quick fixes released? That would be to help support a majority. Apart from 1541/1541 II not a lot of other drives are supported. Why doesn't DeeKay bug Crossbow and others to support 1581, FD2000/FD4000, IDE or other drives? I'm pleased The Dreams and also GRG support more.

Another solution is to keep useful tools private instead of sharing them.
2007-09-13 10:12
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
Dear moderators,

may I ask you to dont delete comments from my releases? can you put them back?

thanks
2007-09-13 11:40
Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639
I can only join in on the praise for Python. It's an excellent cross platform solution, and much easier to code for than Java or C/C++, at least when doing rapid development.
2007-09-13 14:21
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Oh my, how surprising: Windows-users are pissed off about people asking for crossplatform-support!
I wonder how much you'd bitch & moan if VICE was exclusive to Linux!...

Ofcourse, nobody can support EVERY platform, and IIRC there was not a single one asking for BSD-, QNX or BeOS-ports. Just look at the rest of the world: Usually supported are Windows, Linux and MacOS, just keep it like this! Besides: If you keep your stuff crossplatform, developers from BSD, QNX and BeOS will surely be more than happy to port it to their system themselves if you give them the code! Just like MAME, VLC etc!...

Hein: If you actually say there's no difference between Linux, Windows and MacOS I'd have a bridge to sell you...
Apple may be not very different from M$ (apart from the fact that Apple can make decent usable software and have a feeling for style! ;-), but I fucking hate Apple, and it's not about Apple here, it's about MacOS X!

That's the typical Windows-defense: The companies are all the same bastards anyway, so i might as well stick with Windows and M$! Well, no, they're not. Redhat isn't M$, and neither is Apple... Besides: You can pull out this bullshit reasoning when M$ has less than 60% of the market, aslong as they have over 90% - Keep on dreaming! Equality and a healthy market are a LOOOONG way off! Until then you have to put up with our bitching and moaning and you should damn well shut it since you'll get all the software for Windows anyway, so why bother slagging down people who want it for their system, too? What's your motivation for doing this if i may ask?
2007-09-13 14:24
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Danzig:
"Shall we start voting for importance of OSes?"

Yeah, sure, why not?
Anything with less than 10 votes doesn't get a port! 8)

I don't know any BeOS- or QNX-users with c64s, do you? However, i know *quite* a few meanwhile with Linux and MacOS. If you still came to parties, you could have seen it yourself! ;-)

Besides: "Windows has to be supported, whether we like it or not." If you think so, okay. But nobody ever demanded that there should be no windows-version, so what the hell are you talking about?
2007-09-13 18:25
Danzig

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440
DeeKay:
as stated b4, this leads nowhere...

on the other hand you are rite: all these nice
painting-tools are for windoze but the handfull of
dudettes using macos(x) are... surprise surprise...
graphic artists :) (powerbook macbook imac emac xmac
whatsoever), okay a little to strict ;)

but if you are really interested in using these tools,
just get yourself a virtual machine and do it...
these tools don't rape a x86 so a virtual (or on
motorola-based macs (say TRUE macs :D ) emulated) machine should do the trick...

maybe just putting all these tools opensource would do...
and sorry, but for gui java just sucks donkey dick...
2007-09-13 19:20
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946
Deekay, don't worry man.. you're a very sensitive banana, here. You can still do pictures in a C64 emulator, right?

To me a computer is just a tool, not a fashion statement.
2007-09-14 05:35
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Hein: Sorry, I'm just fucking pissed about Windows-Users complaining about people asking for multi-platform support. Let the people who make the programs and who'd have to do the extra work do the complaining, there's no reason why you should "ride to their defense" like a shining knight in armor!
You have your Windows-software, and it won't go away, so just keep mum in the discussion unless you have something worthwhile to contribute, okay?
Jesus, the same people that say they don't like M$ (or are ambivalent) are actively pushing their vendor lock-in bullshit!... Just stop for a second, take a step back and realize what you're doing here!

And a computer is not a "fashion statement" for me, what kinda dumb computer-illiterate designer-asshole do you think i am? I'm neither a member of the EDWIM-Camp (Elite dumbasses with money) nor the BTFFOB-camp (Bling to Flash for our Bitches). If it's a statement for me, it's a political one!..
2007-09-14 06:55
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966
vive la Résistance !
2007-09-14 07:41
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
i can only say one thing to this thread: LOL!
2007-09-14 08:17
Trazan

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620
Amazing thread, I do HAVE to agree.

Now do you understand why I dont like THIS kind of discussion in the Comments about the releases itself? :)
2007-09-14 09:22
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408
Danzig: the handfull of dudettes using macos(x) are... surprise surprise...
graphic artists


Eh, I'm happy to hear you think I qualify as an artist - I've even sold a couple of prints. However, my only released c64 art is a couple of fonts, a few sprites and a shite unfinished pic from the demo I didn't have ready for BFP last year.

So far as my scene activities go, you'll probably find I spend a lot more time coding in 6502, Python and OCaml than I do herding pixels.
2007-09-14 09:32
Britelite

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 51
This "discussion" is a good reminder to never release my tools to the public (not that anyone would use them anyway), there would always be someone demanding this and that and demanding a port to some platform I don't own. So better keep it all to myself :)
2007-09-14 10:04
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Britelite: Well, it's called "public scrutiny" and we do it for Demos and c64-tools all the time... Actually it's made very many popular programs as versatile as they are today, programs that are just made for one single person only appeal to this very person's needs (that's e.g. why Timanthes will probably never do Interlace, cause Mirage hates Interlace! ;-). That's not a bad thing, it's everybodys own choice, but if you do decide to release it, you HAVE to expect people to ask for Feature X, bugfix Y and -occasionally- a port for their platform of choice! ;-)
That's not rude, that's just the way things go! And "it's for free" just won't fly, if that meant that you're not allowed to ask for improvements ALL opensource projects wouldn't be where they are today!
2007-09-14 10:26
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966
Quoting Deekay
And "it's for free" just won't fly, if that meant that you're not allowed to ask for improvements ALL opensource projects wouldn't be where they are today!


You may ask for whatever improvements you deem necessary to your hearts contempt.

But "it's for free" means that the author of the program has the freedom of ignoring whatever demands you may have just as well.



2007-09-14 10:34
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
Quote: Britelite: Well, it's called "public scrutiny" and we do it for Demos and c64-tools all the time... Actually it's made very many popular programs as versatile as they are today, programs that are just made for one single person only appeal to this very person's needs (that's e.g. why Timanthes will probably never do Interlace, cause Mirage hates Interlace! ;-). That's not a bad thing, it's everybodys own choice, but if you do decide to release it, you HAVE to expect people to ask for Feature X, bugfix Y and -occasionally- a port for their platform of choice! ;-)
That's not rude, that's just the way things go! And "it's for free" just won't fly, if that meant that you're not allowed to ask for improvements ALL opensource projects wouldn't be where they are today!


There's a difference between asking & demanding, and imho you were leaning more towards the latter.

If I would ever release a tool or something, and people would react the same way you did, I would probably go the exact opposite way of their requests ;)
2007-09-14 11:06
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966
Quote from DeeKay's csdb profile :

"strong masochistic tendencies (actually enjoys flamewars), M$-, PC- and Intel-Hater"

That adequately explains the course of this discussion :-D

2007-09-14 11:10
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Stainless: Ofcourse he can. All I'm saying is that it's to be expected that people ask for improvements.. And if you actually consider this is a Flamewar, you haven't seen me in full effect yet! 8)

TDJ: Well, i did apologize for the tone in my original posting! I was just really pissed that there's YET ANOTHER c64 paintprogram I cannot use - after Elitepaint, ProMotion, Timanthes and P1...
At some point the dam just breaks... I guess you just don't know what it's like, being a Windows-User yourself! ;-)
2007-09-14 11:38
Oxidy
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 80
Quote: Stainless: Ofcourse he can. All I'm saying is that it's to be expected that people ask for improvements.. And if you actually consider this is a Flamewar, you haven't seen me in full effect yet! 8)

TDJ: Well, i did apologize for the tone in my original posting! I was just really pissed that there's YET ANOTHER c64 paintprogram I cannot use - after Elitepaint, ProMotion, Timanthes and P1...
At some point the dam just breaks... I guess you just don't know what it's like, being a Windows-User yourself! ;-)


Yet another? That's stretching the truth a bit. 0xPaint (former WDPaint) has been around for quite some time. At least before P1 and Timanthes. ProMotion I don't know.

I'll make a mental note that version 1.2 of 0xPaint was the dam breaker for DeeKay. :)
2007-09-14 11:45
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
Quote: Stainless: Ofcourse he can. All I'm saying is that it's to be expected that people ask for improvements.. And if you actually consider this is a Flamewar, you haven't seen me in full effect yet! 8)

TDJ: Well, i did apologize for the tone in my original posting! I was just really pissed that there's YET ANOTHER c64 paintprogram I cannot use - after Elitepaint, ProMotion, Timanthes and P1...
At some point the dam just breaks... I guess you just don't know what it's like, being a Windows-User yourself! ;-)


I don't know what it's like because I have no use for any of those programs you mentioned ;) Other than that, I do have an iMac g3 (although it's not at my place, a friend is using it for the music software), and next week I'll tranform my windows 2000 server into a linux server (ofcourse I'll still have 2 desktops and a laptop, all running windows, left). Plus I make my money doing this crazy java stuff, so I'm not what you would call a real Microsoft adept.

That being said, I never understood the reason to bash certain os'es etc. If you like something, use it, if you don't like it, don't use it, but stop the bashing. Whenever I see people using M$ instead of Microsoft I stop reading their replies: too childish to pay attention to.

Nothing personal, just venting some of my frustrations ;)
2007-09-14 13:27
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
wow... discussion is going a bit out of hand.. but would like to say my thing here too.. :_)

the way I see it, if someone develops something, and releases it for a platform, he/she is not obligated to do whatever is requested. Asking friendly gives more chance. :_)

This also brings me to my next point: open-source. if one where to make a paint program in f.ex C, and released the source. then *other* people can port the code, and people can add features them selfs, if the original coder doesn't want to do it.. :_)

now, to all people using Linux/Mac, who say they barely have this or that: I'm running Linux on a G4 PPC Mac... that means NO Flash, NO Java, NO Wine. and since it's a 400MHz machine with unsupported video card ( ATi Rage 128 PRO ), NO Vice, NO VMWare, or anything else that is graphically intensive... :_(

back to open-source... in my opinion, the c64 scene could benefit from it. if multiple people where to work on a project ( crossdev-tool ), things would speed up significantly :_)

------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php
2007-09-14 14:06
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts:
Knoeki: Unsupported video card?

Download the latest xfree-server.

Check the file: xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/ati/r128_probe.c

There is a HUGE list with various Rage 128 Pro cards. It could be that your's isn't in the list but some of the other will be compatible, it's just not autodetecting it. What you can do in that case is to find out the vendor and chip id of the PCI/AGP card using lspci -x. Modify the source and recompile. I mean, it's all open source right? =D
2007-09-14 14:26
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299
Quote: Stainless: Ofcourse he can. All I'm saying is that it's to be expected that people ask for improvements.. And if you actually consider this is a Flamewar, you haven't seen me in full effect yet! 8)

TDJ: Well, i did apologize for the tone in my original posting! I was just really pissed that there's YET ANOTHER c64 paintprogram I cannot use - after Elitepaint, ProMotion, Timanthes and P1...
At some point the dam just breaks... I guess you just don't know what it's like, being a Windows-User yourself! ;-)


That is not yet another c64 paint program you cannot use, its yet another paint program you chose not to use.
2007-09-14 19:47
tempest

Registered: Jun 2005
Posts: 25
Checkmate. End of discussion.
2007-09-14 20:18
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052
Yes, yes.. yeees...

...tempting... verrry... tempting...

must resist!

*MUST!*

*RESIST!*

*NOT!*

*PUSH!*

*CLOSE!*

*BUT*TON!*

2007-09-14 21:33
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
Quote: Yes, yes.. yeees...

...tempting... verrry... tempting...

must resist!

*MUST!*

*RESIST!*

*NOT!*

*PUSH!*

*CLOSE!*

*BUT*TON!*



Don't do it man! Think about the kids! ThE KIDZ!
2007-09-15 00:47
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645


based on the wallpaper released by comrade zapto under the Glorious People License (GPL) ;_)

------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php
2007-09-15 06:30
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
TDJ: I didn't say you were a blazing defender of anything M$. I just said you don't know what it's like being a minority platform user! ;-) I certainly appreciate your endeavours into non-M$-space, I'm pretty certain after some time of using alternative operating systems yourself you'll understand better! ;-)
And as for "bashing": You haven't seen me bash Windows in this thread, have you? I know I frequently do this, but not in this thread! ;-) And being annoyed by the M$ spelling is so... how did someone put it? 1996! 8)
What you have to remember in the whole equal-treatment-for-everybody reasoning is that we have an awfully skewed market right now. It's not like there's equal players, M$ owns over 90% of the "market" (if you can actually call it that). So for all the hundreds of millions of users that use Windows without even considering anything else, there has to be a counterbalance, and this is users who are actively rejecting Windows... If you really wanna call this "childish", be my guest...

Knoeki: Merely releasing the source is a start, but that's about it. If the source makes heavy use of MFC (M$ Foundation Classes) or any other proprietary M$ technology (DirectX etc) there's a lot of rewriting necessary. Then there's the problem of GUIs. Unless they use a crossplatform UI-Toolkit (QT, WxWidgets etc) you'll have to basically re-do the whole GUI part, which is alot of work!
As for Linux-PPC: I used to have that installed on my iBook for a while. You know why? Just for VICE! ;-) That was back then when there was just NO VICE-port for OS X! And OpenGL worked just nicely (Radeon 7500 this was), I'm awfully sure the Rage128 shouldn't be a problem..
And the Linux=communism thing (your banner) is something i never really understood. I know people like Ballmer came up with that, and that this banner is mainly meant in jest. But the idea of "communist"-linux still spread quite a bit, and if you look at the facts, it's actually quite ironic, since Windows is way more 'communist' than Linux: There's only one choice: Windows. With Linux there's a zillion different versions out there for every need. Which sounds more like communism to you? Trabbi and Robotron anyone? 8) With Windows, you have to make do with what "the party" (=M$) gives you and that's that. With Linux you can tweak and adjust it to your every need (just ask Hollywood special FX studios! 8). Again: What sounds more like Russia, China or East Germany to you?
The only thing i can see with Linux that relates to communism (the original idea, not the actually existing socialism) is that its basic philosophy is "power to the people". But then again, almost everybody agrees that the original idea of communism is actually a really good one! ;-) So Windows is like the actually existing socialism (which sucked) and Linux is like it was supposed to be like! (which is good! ;-)

Jetboy: Stop that bullshit reasoning. The only choice i made is not to use Windows. This in no way means I do not want to use any software! People that do not support anything else than Windows force that on me! Like said: I can get a shitload of commercial software packages, games, thousands of good shareware programs and almost all opensource software for MacOS X. Even homebrew crossdev stuff like for Dreamcast and Gamecube! So why is it that the c64 scene in particular seems to be so adamant to not support anything else?
2007-09-15 07:29
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
DK: dude, we *all* know what it is to be a minority platform user, or wouldn't you call the c64 one? I still get strange looks when I tell people I have a breadbox up & ready in my attic room :)

The second part of my previous post was not directed towards you by the way, but more in general. I don't call not wanting to use Microsoft childish, I call calling Microsoft M$ childish.

Oh, and as for me trying out other systems: I've been using unix & linux longer than I've been using windows, nearly 20 years already ;)
2007-09-15 07:50
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
TDJ: Well, that "c64=minority platform" argument was used by me above already - the other way around! But obviously some people don't quite seem to realize the similarities, otherwise they wouldn't argue against crossplatform support!..

And there's a difference between "I've used it a few times" or "i use it at work" and "I use it all the time every single day"! ;-) A.k.a. "make the switch"!
2007-09-15 08:25
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946
If Microsoft owns 90% of the market, than that's not communism, but rather 'right' of the strongest. Quite natural.

[edit] I don't like to speak in other people's name, but I think TDJ knows quite well how it feels to be part of a minority group, and that goes beyond the silly debate about computers. ;) [/edit]
2007-09-15 08:42
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
@DK: I'm not making the switch, at least, not completely. The linux server I'm going to install next week will be there for supporting my professional needs, e.g.: Oracle, Subversion, Artifactory, the works. I'll keep on doing my personal stuff on a Windows XP. Why? Because I like working with it. And yes, I know enough about the alternatives to be able to make that decision.

Oh, and I *do* use Linux every day. I can screen my way out of a paperbox if I need to! ;)

@Hein: thanks man, but you know I don't like to talk about me being from royal descent. It's hard enough living with the common people as it is, without them worshiping me every step of the way.
2007-09-15 08:46
Sixx

Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229
Ooooh lalala ... Windows for life!
2007-09-15 12:27
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
TDJ:Okay, It's different with you then, you win! ;-) Still: You use Windows because you like it. Fair enough, freedom of choice and all. But I use MacOS X because I like it, and i hate Windows (used it for 6 years). Why should I not have the freedom of choice? Just because some people don't sit down and think for a minute before choosing their tools when they make some homebrew xdev stuff? The Linux crowd seems to have no problem porting their stuff to Windows, and even native OS X stuff can be ported using OpenSTEP! Why does the Windows-crowd think they have the god-given right to ignore everything outside the Windows-realm? How does that add up with the whole "Windows is just a platform like any other" thinking? Obviously the minor platforms spend more time supporting the big one than the other way around (even though they don't have to either!), don't you think this is a little ironic? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Because if every opensource-software is also available for MacOS X and Windows, how should that create an incentive to use anything else than Windows?

Hein: Being part of a minority group in one respect does not necessarily mean people are able to project this onto other areas of their life. And I would say being part of an ethnic minority is still quite a bit different to being part of an "IT-minority"! ;-) I have yet to see any constitution that says "everyone is free in their choice of Operating system", just alongside freedom of speech and freedom of belief! ;-)
2007-09-15 12:42
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946
"Fair enough, freedom of choice and all. But I use MacOS X because I like it, and i hate Windows (used it for 6 years). Why should I not have the freedom of choice?"

"Why does the Windows-crowd think they have the god-given right to ignore everything outside the Windows-realm"

I really don't understand it. You say you want more freedom of choice (allthough you allready choose MacOS X), but you don't allow for developers to have freedom of choice. erm..

The Windows-crowd has just as much rights as you do, I suppose.

oh, and I think everybody is free to choose the OS they like, that's something that doesn't need to be written down on paper, because I think it falls under the right to have freedom of belief.
2007-09-15 13:36
Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493
Daniel,... You're fighting the symptoms of your problem.

Face it, the only way to solve that 'problem', is to get the professional industry to share this point of view.
But you decide to solve it here...

And please drop this incredible hate, life will be much more enjoyable.
2007-09-15 13:38
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Hein: What's so hard to understand? I'm all for Freedom of choice UNLESS it means that their choice limits MY freedom of choice!

It's the same as with all the other freedoms: Freedom of belief is good, but if that freedom of belief means that you believe in a religion who says you should cut all non-believers into little pieces and make a soup from them, hell no! 8) Freedom of speech yes, but if you say this means people can call others "asshole" or "nigger" or whatever insult you can come up with, that's where it bloody stops!

2007-09-15 13:45
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Quote: Daniel,... You're fighting the symptoms of your problem.

Face it, the only way to solve that 'problem', is to get the professional industry to share this point of view.
But you decide to solve it here...

And please drop this incredible hate, life will be much more enjoyable.


Well, actually the professional industry DOES share this point of view to a large extent. As said before: I can get a shitload of commercial software packages, way more than c64 xdev stuff. Some programs like Maya or Softimage are even available for up to FOUR platforms (Windows, IRIX, MacOS, Linux).

And I'll drop "the hate" as soon as M$ drops the hate towards anything non-M$. Did you hear they're doing their own version of Flash now and their own version of PDF - WHY? What's the reason? Simple: Because they just HAVE to do something proprietary with ANYTHING, because they just HAVE to control everything!
And let's not even get started about M$' hate towards anything Opensource...

I enjoy my life quite a bit, showing Windows-users the flaws in their reasoning is actually quite fun! ;-)
2007-09-15 14:06
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
DeeKay: first of all: STFU!

now on to the point.

you keep bitching about MS, but Apple is just as evil. for example, iPod uses proprietary software to transfer music (iTunes), which uses a proprietary audio codec (.m4a or so). the latest patches also make sure you can NOT use any alternatives to transfer music, or to run on your iPod.

Apple hates open source. they where once cool, but nowadays, they are becoming more and more CEB's (( Cocky Elite Bastards )).

Also, no-one has ever forced you to use existing tools. You need a program like ProjectOne badly? then code your own, or just put up with the fact that you'll have to use Windows.

Linus Torvalds said that he uses "...the best tool for the job, even if that includes proprietary software.", and I totally agree on this.
Sure, I hate Windows too, and I try to avoid it wherever possible. but if it gets the job done, I'll use it.

Just, for once, try to not be so ignorant. People code these tools in their free time, for fun(?), so they are in NO WAY obligated to port their software.

------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php
2007-09-15 14:53
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074
This is just the same old lame OS war. Moderators, please close the thread.

If people want help doing platform independent development in C++ or Python, find me on IRC or start a new thread.
2007-09-15 14:59
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946
Quote: Hein: What's so hard to understand? I'm all for Freedom of choice UNLESS it means that their choice limits MY freedom of choice!

It's the same as with all the other freedoms: Freedom of belief is good, but if that freedom of belief means that you believe in a religion who says you should cut all non-believers into little pieces and make a soup from them, hell no! 8) Freedom of speech yes, but if you say this means people can call others "asshole" or "nigger" or whatever insult you can come up with, that's where it bloody stops!



Next time you make a nice koala picture, make it hires at the same time. But I guess that next time will never come, because you're spending your time on weltschmerzen, tsk, what a waste of energy.
2007-09-15 15:22
Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206
My "reasoning" for using Windows is as follows:

Aside from every day web browsing etc. I'm mostly interested in doing design/graphics and making music.

Software on Linux for this kind of thing is limited, which leaves Windows or MacOS.

If I want to use MacOS, I need to buy a Mac Pro at well over £1000 UK pounds. If I want to use Windows I can build up a high spec machine for around £600 UK pounds.

Therefore I chose Windows.

The rest is irrelevant to me. I really couldn't give a shit about all of the corporate arguements. Microsoft, Apple, Adobe (since you started mentioning rivals to Flash and PDF) are all in it for the money, are all making millions and are all ripping off their users in their own way. I'll let them worry about who controls what, it makes no difference to my life and it seemingly saves me a lot of anger and frustration!

Whilst you continue this arguement, I will now use my Windows only software to pixel some happy things! rainbows, bunny rabbits, sunshine...aah!
2007-09-15 15:36
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
"Why should I not have the freedom of choice? Just because some people don't sit down and think for a minute before choosing their tools when they make some homebrew xdev stuff?"

translation:

"I dont give a rabbit shit about how much work it is. My freedom is more important than anyone else's. Idiots go and port over your tools for me. Even if it takes 1000x more effort than me using windows. Go slaves and code for MY freedom, your freedom doesnt matters at all when its about my convienience"
2007-09-15 15:42
Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493
Enough bullshit. The key issue is;
"are c64 sceners obligated to support different platforms?"

Well Daniel, without hiding behind all this bullshit - answer this with (Y) or (N).
2007-09-15 16:02
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Quote: DeeKay: first of all: STFU!

now on to the point.

you keep bitching about MS, but Apple is just as evil. for example, iPod uses proprietary software to transfer music (iTunes), which uses a proprietary audio codec (.m4a or so). the latest patches also make sure you can NOT use any alternatives to transfer music, or to run on your iPod.

Apple hates open source. they where once cool, but nowadays, they are becoming more and more CEB's (( Cocky Elite Bastards )).

Also, no-one has ever forced you to use existing tools. You need a program like ProjectOne badly? then code your own, or just put up with the fact that you'll have to use Windows.

Linus Torvalds said that he uses "...the best tool for the job, even if that includes proprietary software.", and I totally agree on this.
Sure, I hate Windows too, and I try to avoid it wherever possible. but if it gets the job done, I'll use it.

Just, for once, try to not be so ignorant. People code these tools in their free time, for fun(?), so they are in NO WAY obligated to port their software.

------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php


"STFU"? Excuse me? Can you tone it down a little bit?

Obviously you missed the posting(s) where i said that i hate Apple more than the PC-User these days. And that I'm not arguing for Apple, but for MacOS X, which is quite a different thing.
Actually the reason why I "fell from grace" _is_ that they've become "Cocky Elite Bastards", in case you're wondering... So calm down, Bronco, we're still in the same ballpark! ;-)

I've heard the "best tool for the job" reasoning time and time again, but I just don't follow it. If everyone did, there would be NO ports for alternative operating systems or native software that does a job previously only possible in Windows - because there'd be simply zero demand, has that thought ever occurred to you?
It's just not feasible as a "categorical imperative for software". If everyone thought like that, there'd be NO mplayer, there'd be NO VLC, NO DeCSS, NO iPod-Tools for Linux _at all_, NO alternative opensource device drivers for vendor-binaries (and hence NOTHING for LinuxPPC!) etc/pp! All this software was done because Linux-Users wanted to do something that was only possible using other operating systems - back then "the better tools for the job", obviously!

I'll give you an example from my personal experience: I am working as a hobby with surround audio. Now the only TWO programs for OS X that can deal with DTS are VLC (only versions prior to 0.8, DTS threatened the Uni paris with legal action if they didn't remove their reverse-engineered opensource DTSdec) and Apples DVD Studio Pro, which can encode a DTS-stream.
I could've just taken the easy way out and downloaded some codec-pack for Windows and used one of the gazillion Windows-only tools, but I didn't. I found some sourcecode to decode DTS into 6-channel WAVs and worked with a friend to get it running under OS X, then i wrote my own shell scripts to batch process it and make mp3-surround audio from it. Now there IS an alternative for OS X (I'll release it soon after i've made a GUI for it and properly multithreaded it! ;-). If I hadn't done this, there wouldn't be.

Think your stuff through for crying out loud - then post! ;-)

You can call me many things, but "ignorant" is something i take great offense in. Everybody in the c64 scene does things for fun in their free time, but that doesn't mean they're excempt from public scrutiny. We've been through that point way way early in the thread already...
I never said anyone is "obligated" to do anything. If they choose only to support Windows, fine, but I'm just as much entitled to voice my anger about this then!
2007-09-15 16:08
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Quote: "Why should I not have the freedom of choice? Just because some people don't sit down and think for a minute before choosing their tools when they make some homebrew xdev stuff?"

translation:

"I dont give a rabbit shit about how much work it is. My freedom is more important than anyone else's. Idiots go and port over your tools for me. Even if it takes 1000x more effort than me using windows. Go slaves and code for MY freedom, your freedom doesnt matters at all when its about my convienience"


Sorry, little princess, if I stepped on your foot! ;-)
Your "translation" is what you want to hear, not what I said...

In fact I've quoted many examples of toolchains you can use. Yes, there actually is "freedom of choice" in crossplatform development, something users of M$-Toolchains might not be very familiar with..
And no, if you choose crossplatform alternatives it is NOT more work than with the proprietary M$-Toolchain.
Obviously, it's now too late for P1, since the code is Windows-only already. All I'm asking for is that for the NEXT project, you just _could_ think for a minute before choosing your tools! ;-) Is that really too much to ask for?
2007-09-15 16:10
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Quote: Enough bullshit. The key issue is;
"are c64 sceners obligated to support different platforms?"

Well Daniel, without hiding behind all this bullshit - answer this with (Y) or (N).


Morally obliged - I'd say yes. But since it's moral, everybody has to answer this question for himself!

And thanks for calling my writing "bullshit"! ;-) It's good to know you respect me so much! 8)
And yes, before you gloat: I did say "bullshit" in this thread aswell, but atleast I had the decency to adress everything and show WHY I think it's bullshit - and not just ignore it. That's because I respect my opponents! ;-)
2007-09-15 18:13
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966
This discussion is so Whats with all the hate. We need some more of this.

Where's vanja when you need her.
2007-09-15 18:28
Cruzer

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048
Now STFU everyone and start doing some stuff for the platform we can all agree on as the most rulzoring one! :)

And if you absolutely have to do some cross-platform stuff, then please please think a little about not locking it too much to a specific OS. It also helps yourself, since it makes it more future-proof.
2007-09-15 18:42
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946
sweat, sweat, work, work, pixel, pixel... grmbl... click, click, poke, poke...
2007-09-15 19:41
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
Deekay,

The problem is that you only think from the user's perspective. However its not like that every c64 scener has the knowledge, and has access for crossplatform toolchains. Speaking of myself I'm _still_ in the learning phase regarding VB. I'm just starting to grasp the deeper concepts of modern programming, working in an OS enviroment, OOP, etc etc. I dont do coding for a living you see?

It's not only about the decision of which toolchain/language. Its _first_ about your knowledge and accessiblity.

Anyway I'll look into wine compatibility when I'll finish the next p1 release. from the wine bug reports it looks like there are only minor issues.

2007-09-15 20:24
Laxity

Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459
Quote: Now STFU everyone and start doing some stuff for the platform we can all agree on as the most rulzoring one! :)

And if you absolutely have to do some cross-platform stuff, then please please think a little about not locking it too much to a specific OS. It also helps yourself, since it makes it more future-proof.


You're surely talking about the Amiga, right? (Thumb.. Au!..)
2007-09-15 21:47
FMan
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66
Quote: This discussion is so Whats with all the hate. We need some more of this.

Where's vanja when you need her.


She is probably beating up her boyfriend.

DeeKay, you kinda talked yourself into a bag early on. That's a saying in <my country>.

"I'm not forcing anyone to use anything"

Actually, you are doing exactly that. You are trying to force developers to use the tools you have chosen for them. I think it's the developer who decides what he uses and the user decides what he wants to use when he chooses his system and since you have chosen something else than Windows, it is your responsibility that you cannot run Windows programs and everything is your own fault so STFU.

"It's not like RealBASIC is any harder to code than VisualBASIC" - here you go again. Forcing people to use a named tool instead of something else they might want to use. Of course I'm here just trolling because I was told to see this thread. Dunno why coz I normally stay away from this forum. Anyways, Laxity beat me to it, coz I was going to say that the only platform worth supporting is the Amiga.

Everything else pretty much sucks. Also, regarding the related fight today on IRC as an extension of your OS war, Windows is synonymous to using a personal computer. If a person wants to use some other marginal OS, then it really is a conscious choice to relinquish everything you can only do on Microsoft platforms, which define the nature of computing in modern times!

Finally, MP3 sucks.
2007-09-16 07:27
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Quote: Now STFU everyone and start doing some stuff for the platform we can all agree on as the most rulzoring one! :)

And if you absolutely have to do some cross-platform stuff, then please please think a little about not locking it too much to a specific OS. It also helps yourself, since it makes it more future-proof.


Word! 8)
2007-09-16 07:53
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Oswald: The "accessability" reasoning is wrong. Visual Basic costs money (unless you use the limited Express Edition), while many crossplatform toolkits can be downloaded for free, especially for non-commercial projects (QT, WxWidgets, Python, SDL etc) or they cost very little money, way less than Visual Studio.
If you're still learning, that's okay - but why not learn something that doesn't lock you into some platform? It's just the same effort, like said!
And seriously: Help when learning any crossplatform toolchain is just as readily available as when learning proprietary M$-technologies! There's IRC-channels (for quite a few things you can even ask on #c-64!), newsgroups, messageboards and community-sites with shitloads of samplecode for EVERYTHING!

Fman: You can repeat it as often as you want, but I'm not forcing anybody to use anything. If you really are so hell-bent on the word "force" (just like Knoeki seems to be on the word "obligated"), then maybe you could say i want to force them NOT to use proprietary tools. But the word hardly seems appropriate used like this, since the word "force" doesn't quite correlate with the word "choice", which is what you get if you do crossplatform development (contrary to the M$-way!).
Furthermore, the toolchains i quoted were merely examples, there's a shitload more out there. BlitzBASIC for example, or Kylix/Delphi!.. I didn't "pick" anything for anyone, it's all just EXAMPLES!

"Windows is synonymous to using a personal computer. If a person wants to use some other marginal OS, then it really is a conscious choice to relinquish everything you can only do on Microsoft platforms, which define the nature of computing in modern times!"

What a load of Marketing-Blabla-crap... You've really seriously been brainwashed! If M$ "defines the nature of computing in modern times", why is Vista's UI such a blatant rip-off of OS X? Why is there a special "Windows Cluster Node Version", that seeks to emulate what Linux has been doing for over a decade?
M$ is a "me, too" company. They're by far the biggest, but saying that M$ "defined" _anything_ worthwhile or hinting that they innovated _anything_ just goes to show how little you really know about M$...
2007-09-16 08:42
Devia

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401
Does it really make sense to talk about free/commercial solutions on a site dedicated to cracked software?

MS might not have spawned many original innovative ideas, but nonetheless, they did manage to build on those ideas and produce "market leading" solutions. Not "market leading" just because they nearly own the market, but because some of those solutions actually are "the best" in class. And I'm not referring to their IMO shit sucking fucked up stupidly designed OS's.

Porting to "other platforms" shouldn't be the concern of the free software producer.. If the source is available and the software is woth anything, someone WILL port it to their platform.
If the source is not available and the software is worth something, go ahead and bug the software producer and let him know how much appreciation he's missing out on for not supporting "your" platform.

People should do more native C64 apps instead, really.

..just my 2-4 cents..
2007-09-16 12:33
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Devia:
> Not "market leading" just because they nearly own the market, but because some of those solutions actually are "the best" in class. And I'm not referring to their IMO shit sucking fucked up stupidly designed OS's.

Well, what are you talking about then? 8) Certainly not IE (Marketleader), what a lame and buggy piece of software. Certainly not M$ Office, either, I've rarely ever seen such badly designed unusable software. Outlook? Gimme a break, that thing is called "Lookout" or "Outbreak" for a reason, just ask Usenet-dwellers or Antivirus-companies!
Visual Studio is supposed to be pretty good from what people tell me, but that's seriously the only thing i can come up with right now...

> People should do more native C64 apps instead, really.

You don't have to tell ME that! ;-) However, a native MUIFLI editor is pretty much impossible, since one MUIFLI-picture takes up most of the RAM already (2 banks for both pictures plus lots of displayer Speedcode)!...
2007-09-16 12:39
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
real man codes his own tool. from scratch, on every new platform.

(this thread is so LOL)
2007-09-16 16:55
FMan
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66
Actually, you must have been stoned when you tried them because Microsoft Word and Excel are top software that serve their purpose admirably. They are extremely easy to use, powerful and excellent. It is impossible to run into any kind of problems with those applications.

Personally, I am rather skeptical if any of those bloated cross-platform GUI creation systems come even close to GadTools. AmigaOS is far superior to everything else in the universe, so there really is no arguing about which operating system everyone should use.

There is a good reason for only learning OS-specific programming, as long as it is on the Amiga, due to its exceptional operating system. As to the help provided by asking on IRC channels, they are usually populated by gurus that respond by referring you to something called Google.

Besides, Microsoft isn't at all the opposite of multiplatform ideology. As you may know they have formulated the OOXML into an open standard released into the public. This will allow everyone to easily support any information exchange with Microsoft applications.

I don't like you pushing BASIC so much. It's an ancient beginner's language that should only be used for learning the first steps of programming. All serious programmers use only C. Every other programming language is incorrect and must be put in the trash.

'If M$ "defines the nature of computing in modern times", why is Vista's UI such a blatant rip-off of OS X?'

Those two aren't mutually exclusive. The point to the matter is that everything Microsoft isn't doing is marginal by default and cannot be used for its heresy. Once Microsoft adopts it, then it becomes the standard and definitive in the popular utilization of information technology.

My friend, DeeKay, you are fighting a losing battle against the Force. This is the way of the future. Microsoft has been integrated into the core of the global society in a way that cannot be reversed, so you should just give up and join us to enjoy the of bliss that is MS Windows!
2007-09-16 17:06
Trazan

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620
Fuel the fire!
2007-09-16 17:49
Devia

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401
DeeKay: I wasn't referring to IE, nor Office, although I wouldn't exactly call Office "badly designed unusable software", well.. maybe the 2007 edition ;-)
I was thinking more in the lines of their Server Applications like Exchange Server, SQL Server, IIS7 and Active Directory. If one doesn't recognize the quality and potential of those apps, there's no point in further discussions on that subject.

FMan: Surely you haven't tried Office 2007.. THEN you'll start bitching for real! ;-) ..i tend to call it "the evasive toolbar edition" :(
2007-09-16 18:03
Spinball

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 88
FMan: Actually, you must have been stoned when you tried them because Microsoft Word and Excel are top software that serve their purpose admirably. They are extremely easy to use, powerful and excellent. It is impossible to run into any kind of problems with those applications.

Have you ever used WORD? I work at a book publisher and spend some hours every day to solve problems of people trying to write books with word. pure hell...
2007-09-16 18:35
Danzig

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440
winword.exe *lolz*

http://www.heise.de/ct/schlagseite/00/03/gross.jpg

(sorry, online in german)
sayz like: so, mr.gates, since i have you already here,
can you please tell me, why my lowercase chars always
turn to god damn uppercase after pressing the return-key?



excel :D ever tried to use oledb-jet-engine on an
excel sheet??? must depend on rand() if you get
an integer or widestring... it changes nearly each
time you open a the recordset :D


okay, little too offtopic so back to this funny thread:

each and everybody is arguing about the sucking vista-gui,
the slow .NET-Windows Forms and on the other hand come up
this tcl/tk und all these bastard "platform independend" gui-frameworks...

try out pidgin (former gaim), that shows how this crap
can even get a 2+ Ghz x86-compliant computer on its knees
:D

so: amiga + gadget toolbox was a far better concept :D
(should join my 1260 with a circuit again ;) )
2007-09-16 18:44
Devia

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401
ToolMaker rocked!
2007-09-16 19:51
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052
Quote: FMan: Actually, you must have been stoned when you tried them because Microsoft Word and Excel are top software that serve their purpose admirably. They are extremely easy to use, powerful and excellent. It is impossible to run into any kind of problems with those applications.

Have you ever used WORD? I work at a book publisher and spend some hours every day to solve problems of people trying to write books with word. pure hell...


"Have you ever used WORD? I work at a book publisher and spend some hours every day to solve problems of people trying to write books with word. pure hell..."

I don't want to defend Word, but I'm quite sure that most problems came from the fact that people who use editors do a lot of non-standard formatting actions (like enters on every line, spaces for indentation and similar abuses. Other thing is... we might maybe blame word for allowing so many people to get the impression that they can write books with it. ;-)
2007-09-16 20:03
Danzig

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440
It's a known fact that you CAN'T write books with word... A few years ago I had to create a network-protocol and write a detailed document about the frame-types and stuff... this documents has ~50 pages and word just fuxxors it up quite frequently....

and the person writing documentation for our software once wrote a .doc about a quite large program and guess what??
all those who had to review that document had to update to office 2007 coz any previous word version couldn't open it anymore though it was NOT written with office 2007 *still rofl*
it was written with word xp... the person saved the document before going home and couldn't open it the next morning :D so all others tried it and ONE dude had already office 2007 and could open it :D
2007-09-16 22:35
FMan
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66
Devia: "Surely you haven't tried Office 2007" - no, I have Office 95. Well, I do technically own Office 2000 too, but the CD is lost. Generally it is good practice to refrain from using Microsoft programs until version 3.

Spinball: "Have you ever used WORD?" - of course I have. I satisfy all my text processing needs with it and I have never used a better application in my life. MS Word is quite likely the best piece of software ever made in the history of mankind!

Danzig: Now, on to something completely different. It says on the Cyberpunx RR website: "13-08-2001 Danzig is still working on the Sprite and Chareditor". Now, six years later, do you think you'll be finished anytime soon?
2007-09-17 06:51
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Dudes, it should be apparent now that Fman is just trolling! ;-) It wasn't so clear back when i replied, but now it's just damn obvious!

Gotta second what he said about the RR Sprite/Chareditor though! ;-) FORCE! OBLIGATION!! How is it, Mirco? That'd REALLY REALLY rock, not having to boot up an external editor!.. I recommend the Faces Font editor for chars, THE gold standard (and fairly small, too! ;-)!
2007-09-17 10:03
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
and when danzig has it ready, then you hack it into the rr rom yourself! or something =D
2007-09-17 10:48
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
gpz: I dunno. The plan was IIRC to leave some space in the ROM for useful programs, like TASS for the coders or sprite/chareditors for the GFXians or SDI/JCH-ed/whatever for the musicians!...
Is the 32k completely full already?
If it didn't fit in, why was Mirco supposed to do it then? 8)

P.S: Nordic fucking Power already had a sprite and chareditor built in!... It sucked compared to proper ones like Faces edit, but still! ;-)
2007-09-17 11:30
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
the point isnt wether if it fits in. the point is that someone has to put it in there :)
2007-09-17 18:14
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
well, I have looked into some "toolchains"...

- python is too darned high level, no good gfx librarys, interpreted, impossible to get a free usable ide, etc

- realbasic is 49x slower than VB, the IDE is wonderful, except that you can only see one function at a time wtf... needs a serial....

- and the winner would be QT with Visual Studio 2005 express, both obtainable for FREE. The QT libraries and controls are extremely powerful. (havent found suppot for 8 bit palette indexed bitmap anywhere but here!) however my c++ knowledge is close to 0. and as somewhere I read: "giving a programmer c++ is like giving a chimpanze a .45 gun", so I'll stick for now with my lollypop VB.

conclusion: its pointless to demand crossplatform support when it meets inability. Even if I would start up with qt I have again 0 knowledge about linux, not to talk about develping an app for it.
2007-09-17 20:07
Sixx

Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229
Quote: Devia: "Surely you haven't tried Office 2007" - no, I have Office 95. Well, I do technically own Office 2000 too, but the CD is lost. Generally it is good practice to refrain from using Microsoft programs until version 3.

Spinball: "Have you ever used WORD?" - of course I have. I satisfy all my text processing needs with it and I have never used a better application in my life. MS Word is quite likely the best piece of software ever made in the history of mankind!

Danzig: Now, on to something completely different. It says on the Cyberpunx RR website: "13-08-2001 Danzig is still working on the Sprite and Chareditor". Now, six years later, do you think you'll be finished anytime soon?


I just love that sentence... "MS word is quite likely the best piece of software ever made in the history of mankind!". Geez, what u'r smoking? Pass that blunt!
2007-09-18 07:13
Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639
Quoting Oswald
python is too darned high level,

...as if being high level is a bad thing when it comes to developing complex applications.

Quoting Oswald
no good gfx librarys,

SDL and OpenGL aren't good?

Quoting Oswald
interpreted,

Again, as if that's something negative.

Quoting Oswald
impossible to get a free usable ide,

There is one shipped with the default Python distribution, called "IDLE".
2007-09-18 18:50
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
as said in #zomgwtfbbq today...

<Knoeki> okay, so like
<Knoeki> at school/work/whatever
<Knoeki> I had to install Linux on a machine a while ago. went pretty smooth and all, no problems really.
<Knoeki> now today, I had to install windows on the EXACT same machine
<Knoeki> but noooooooooo
<Knoeki> first, it formats, copies the files
<Knoeki> then it reboots to install
<Knoeki> can't read the disk.
<Knoeki> or well, Windows installer can't read the disk
<Knoeki> the BIOS can see it fine.
<Knoeki> so, we try again
<Knoeki> and again
<Knoeki> then we got some sata-raid drivers from the mobo manufacturer
<Knoeki> which diddn't fit on a floppy
<Knoeki> so we had to get other drivers
<Knoeki> then, there is no floppy drive in the system
<Knoeki> so we get a floppydrive
<Knoeki> but it doesn't work
<Knoeki> so we try 3 different cables with same result
<Knoeki> then we tried a USB floppy drive
<Knoeki> which wasn't showing up at all.
<Knoeki> then we tried 2 other floppy drives
<Knoeki> the last one worked
<Knoeki> then we find out the drivers don't work.
<Knoeki> no, even worse
<Knoeki> they made sure windows installer diddn't see the disk AT ALL after rebooting
<Knoeki> so we try again
<Knoeki> but no suck luck
<Knoeki> so we get *other* drivers
<Knoeki> which caused the installer not to see the HDD anymore D:
<Knoeki> THAT IS HOW MY FUCKING DAY WAS
<Knoeki> and worse
<Knoeki> I'm skipping the details
<Knoeki> I've been installing fucking M$ windows for over 6 hours, and it still does not work o.O
<Knoeki> all because the system is too retarded to read floppies properly (it gave errors on floppy reads which worked fine in other machines..)
<Knoeki> and because M$ is too stupid to think of the simple fact that you may want to BROWSE a floppy in the installer, because the driver file is not in the root dir.
<Knoeki> I fucking cursed about M$ till no end
<Knoeki> I was ready to fucking strangle someone.
<Knoeki> THAT'S how pissed off I was.



------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php
2007-09-18 19:42
enthusi

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677
"I had to install windows" - see? there is your problem :)
2007-09-18 19:57
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299
DeeKay
> Jetboy: Stop that bullshit reasoning.
I choose not to do that.

> The only choice i made is not to use Windows.
On the contrary. Your choice was not to run windows nor any software that needs windows to run.

> This in no way means I do not want to use any software!
Yea, i bet you want to run software. But the thing is you chose not to use the system, and the software you want to use needs that system. So the deal is more complicated than you first thought.

> People that do not support anything else than Windows force that on me!

No. You force it on yourself. They made their choice, as did you. They choose to write their programs on windows. They are not forcing you to do anything. You want to force them to write their software for another platform. Why should they, they made their choce already, they used their time, their software is doing for them what they want. It is you who chose not to use run windows, ok - its your problem, deal with it for yourself.

People know that they chose their machines not for the system they can run, that they chose their systems not for the sake of the system. People chose their machines, people chose their systems for the software they can run.

So you choosing not to use window is just screwing yourself.

Yes Linux is great for some thing, yes, mac is great for others. Yes, windows is great for some things.

So first you should chose what you want to do, then see how to best acomplish it, then get the proper tools and do it, and not cry like a baby that you screwed yourself.

> So why is it that the c64 scene in particular seems to be so adamant to not support anything else?

Because they, like yourself - they have a right to make choices, and they use that right.

Damn. It seems so obvious i wonder why m i explaining this to you.

I would say screw yourself if you wish, coz i don't care, but writting all that above i proved otherwise :)
2007-09-18 20:22
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647
close this thread?
2007-09-18 20:50
gregg
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 56
@Oswald

There's a JIT for Python, too (PsyCo) which works quite well. For your IDE needs there's Eclipse.
2007-09-18 22:02
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299
Close it please. Next time close similar threads sooner, please. Thank you.
2007-09-18 22:23
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
I really don't get people asking for the closure of threads. Why? If you don't like what's written, then don't fucking read it ..

A thread should only be closed if things really get out of hand. To be honest, safe from the Wanderer wars here I've seen few reasons to do so, even in the cases that it actually did happen.
2007-09-18 23:02
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
dont close it, thx. the ones who dont like are not forced to read this. the ones who like to argue about it should be left alone.
2007-09-18 23:07
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
radiantx,

- p1 is far from being a complex application its about low level image manipulation.
- sdl looks to be nice. wasnt aware of it.
- interpeted = slower, yes its something negative.
- ok there might be good IDEs. my main point against python will remain high level and interpretations.

gregg, yeah I tried eclipsy with python, it asked me every damned time when I run a code if I want to save changes, and I had to choose what interpreter (?) to run it in. no thanx.
2007-09-18 23:10
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
knoeki, now another story plz about the endless kernel hacks and compiles. also windows has shitloads of drivers for anything while linux hasnt, I bet there are more cases when linux refuses to install. no sorry, there's much more trouble with linux, you have to compile if you need to install SF, often even the kernel, there's no defacto standard for anything, linux = getting lost in the woods. no thx.
2007-09-19 00:21
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
yeah linux sux, it doesnt even have VB!!!!!
2007-09-19 03:30
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
well, VB may be a toy language it is still extremely powerful in many areas imho.
2007-09-19 05:14
Trazan

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620
Thread will not be closed - we rather see discussion about anythingthatsnotc64 in this thread instead of having to see this endless discussion about whats the best OS/Tools in C64 related releases :)
2007-09-19 05:27
Style

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498
Quote: knoeki, now another story plz about the endless kernel hacks and compiles. also windows has shitloads of drivers for anything while linux hasnt, I bet there are more cases when linux refuses to install. no sorry, there's much more trouble with linux, you have to compile if you need to install SF, often even the kernel, there's no defacto standard for anything, linux = getting lost in the woods. no thx.

Funny, Ive installed linux on many machines and never had a problem. Its been 5 years since I compiled a kernel.

As for drivers, I find these days that linux supports some devices out of the box that windows doesnt.

Also, try to remember that linux moves very quickly - any problems you have today are more than likely gone tomorrow.

Im not trying to change your mind and get u to use linux, I just dont like uninformed FUD flying around.
2007-09-19 09:23
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299
Quote: Thread will not be closed - we rather see discussion about anythingthatsnotc64 in this thread instead of having to see this endless discussion about whats the best OS/Tools in C64 related releases :)

Good point!
2007-09-19 10:41
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
Oswald: I never ever *needed* to compile anything. those where only apps I *wanted*, not needed.

another great windows thing... so today I finally succeeded on that windows install ( had to delete the linux partition though :( ), and guess what? half the hardware was not recognized, while it did under Linux >_>

even worse, I tried to put in an extra network card ( apart from the 2 onboard ones ), and it gave me a blue screen at bootup, saying the STORAGE driver/BIOS was not compatible with windows... other network card? same story. thank god we had some drivers on CD... :_)

now, I am busy trying to install updates... but one update ( for Windows Media Player ) keeps on hanging... and uses 100% CPU ( it's a 1GHz AMD 3200+ )... even the simple starfield screensaver runs at 1fp5s ( 1 frame per 5 seconds... ).

------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php
2007-09-19 10:44
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
and just rebooted another time... :/ so fuck the fucking updates. piece of shit :/


------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php
2007-09-19 12:27
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts:
You guys who have problems installing either windows and/or Linux are just lame IMO. ;D Seriously...
2007-09-19 12:43
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
hehe, thats what i am thinking when ppl tell me linux is so complicated :)
2007-09-19 13:55
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074
Python has the same logical, bit, and math operators as every other language, so I fail to see why it'd be worse at low level image manipulation. I also fail to see how speed is an issue in a paint program, where you typically only update and redraw a handful of pixels per second. Updating the whole screen can be done at 10-15 fps:


#!/usr/bin/env python


from array import array


class pixelstrip:
    "abstract class for horizontal strips of pixels"
    pass


class mcpixelstrip(pixelstrip):
    "horizontal strip of multicolor pixels"

    def __init__(self, byte, colors):
        self.byte = byte
        self.colors = colors
    
    def pixels(self):
        "return a list of four pixels"
        return (
            self.colors[self.byte >> 6],
            self.colors[(self.byte >> 4) & 3],
            self.colors[(self.byte >> 2) & 3],
            self.colors[self.byte & 3]
        )


class bitmap:
    "abstract class for 320x200 bitmaps"
    pass


class mcbitmap(bitmap):
    "class representing a multicolor bitmap image"
    
    def __init__(self):
        self.charram = array('B', [0 for i in range(1000)])
        self.colram = array('B', [0 for i in range(1000)])
        self.gfxram = array('B', [0 for i in range(8000)])
        self.bkgcolor = 0
        
    def render(self, pixels):
        for y in range(25):
            for x in range (40):
                for line in range(8):
                    byte = self.gfxram[y*320 + x*8 + line]
                    coloffset = y * 40 + x
                    pstrip = mcpixelstrip(
                        byte,
                        (
                            self.bkgcolor,
                            self.charram[coloffset] >> 4,
                            self.charram[coloffset] & 0x0f,
                            self.colram[coloffset] & 0x0f
                        )
                    )
                    offset = (y * 8 + line) * 320 + x * 8
                    for pixel in pstrip.pixels():
                        pixels[offset] = pixel
                        pixels[offset + 1] = pixel
                        offset += 2



from timeit import Timer
benchmark = Timer(
"""
koala.render(pixels)
""",
"""
from __main__ import mcbitmap
koala = mcbitmap()
koala.bkgcolor = 0
for i in range(1000):
    koala.charram[i] = 0xbc
    koala.colram[i] = 0x0f
for i in range(8000):
    koala.gfxram[i] = 0x1b
pixels = [0 for i in range(320*200)]
""")

print benchmark.timeit(10) / 10



In fact, according to http://dada.perl.it/shootout/craps.html Python is just a slower than C#, which last I checked was noticably faster than VB. As always algorithms matter more than low level language performance.
2007-09-19 13:58
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
isnt python kindof compiled at runtime though? or was that yet another language? =)
2007-09-19 14:10
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
Quote: isnt python kindof compiled at runtime though? or was that yet another language? =)

Python is the one that strangles you so you have no time to run, you're too busy dying.

Java4evah wut wut!
2007-09-19 18:24
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074
Quote: isnt python kindof compiled at runtime though? or was that yet another language? =)

Python has a mature and efficient bytecode interpreter. There's a JIT extension for it called Psyco that gives a nice speedboost. Interpreters have come a long way since Microsoft's 6502 BASIC... but these days it's more important to optimize your data structures and algorithms so they treat the CPU caches nicely.
2007-09-19 18:29
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
"As always algorithms matter more than low level language performance."

thats like saying you're able to beat machine language code in basic on c64.
2007-09-19 18:31
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
Quote: You guys who have problems installing either windows and/or Linux are just lame IMO. ;D Seriously...

I hope you will remember this sentence when you run into problems like knoeki. be it linux or windows.
2007-09-19 19:15
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074
Quote: "As always algorithms matter more than low level language performance."

thats like saying you're able to beat machine language code in basic on c64.


No, we're talking about modern languages on modern hardware. Try to keep up.
2007-09-19 19:19
Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570
Quote: No, we're talking about modern languages on modern hardware. Try to keep up.


Oswald is still trying to keep up with the Commodore =)

Oh, and this thread sucks.
2007-09-19 19:25
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
Quote: "As always algorithms matter more than low level language performance."

thats like saying you're able to beat machine language code in basic on c64.


on modern archs its indeed a lot more important to optimize your algorithm (for example minimize memory accesses, and use as little IFs/branches as possible) than to create the most efficient speedy machine code. (your cpu will reorder and optimize it anyway).

btw, unless you are using the enterprise version, VB is interpreted aswell :=P
2007-09-19 20:57
Danzig

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440
i'd rather advice oswald to move from vb to delphi...
its kinda like the same ;) but delphi is faster...

so the vb code might be ported faster than using c++ or
all that crappy suggestions like python (argh).

vcl is rad, easy, out of the box and there are dozens of
components for anything...

that said: i hate object pascal :D
2007-09-19 21:43
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
Quote:
thats like saying you're able to beat machine language code in basic on c64.


code-technical? no. but crowd-pleasing? yes. I proved that myself. :_)

------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude
http://hardwarehacks.untergrund.net/zomgwtfbbq/index.php
2007-09-20 05:32
Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639
Danzig: What's crap with Python?
2007-09-20 14:33
gregg
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 56
Yeah, I'd like to know too. I have only positive things to say about Python. :)
2007-09-20 15:52
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
Quote: No, we're talking about modern languages on modern hardware. Try to keep up.


still if language A is x times slower than language B then I dont see that point valid. like .net and java or python will never beat straight machine language code no mather what algorythm you use.
2007-09-20 16:10
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
i bet thats why timanthes is a lot more responsive and less sluggish to use than project1 eh? =P
2007-09-20 16:20
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
exactly! but why dont we call it paint.net with some mirage patches? claiming some 100.000 lines of code which you didnt wrote, well thats something I havent done.
2007-09-20 16:30
TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879
Jesus Oswald, don't blame people for being smarter than you and actually use a framework instead of coding everything themselves. You really got to let go of this 'nobody loves P1' stance.
2007-09-20 16:31
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
for a second i thought your point was that "interpreted" .net is slower than "compiled" VB. and that better implementation of certain algorithms has much less impact.

but appearently the opposite is true, IF you didnt write all yourself.

i immediatly had to think of deekays theory of c64 sceners (users of the most selling computer ever) knowing how it is like to be a non supported minority.

you guys crack me up. lol
2007-09-20 19:43
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074
Quote: still if language A is x times slower than language B then I dont see that point valid. like .net and java or python will never beat straight machine language code no mather what algorythm you use.

Weren't you advocating Visual Basic?
2007-09-21 14:20
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086
Quote: Jesus Oswald, don't blame people for being smarter than you and actually use a framework instead of coding everything themselves. You really got to let go of this 'nobody loves P1' stance.

TDJ, you are right.
2009-02-21 08:23
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363
Gpz: Apparently you weren't there in the early 90s when I and surely many others were scanning the computer game magazines for games, seeing fewer and fewer of them featuring a c64 version! <:-) c64 didn't only have its heyday, you know..

Back in that day i bought at least one game per month, just to support the making of c64 games (I *could* easily have warezed them, you know! <:-)
2009-02-21 09:37
enthusi

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677
I always dislike it when tools are win/mac only of course.
On the other hand, I never cared about MY tools to work on other OS's either. Though I usually use plain C so that would help.
C and SDL is the way to go anyway I say!
For TOOLs I think Python is in fact fun. It seemed rather clean (if you want it to be) but it sure aint something that comes for free when you're used to VB...
Deekay: I recall the same thing in the early 90s.
Why didnt Monkey Island and Indy3 didnt come out for C64 - those bastards (well didnt know about technical issues back then :)
2009-02-21 10:33
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647
When it comes to plain GUI apps, may I recommend a look at the QT library from Trolltech? It is easy to use, free for non commercial purposes, and it uses native widgets for each OS.

It is just as easy to create cross platform apps with this library as creating single OS gui apps on a specific platform.

http://www.qtsoftware.com/

(I see now that CreaMD mentioned this in his first post, but a reminder may not hurt..)
2009-02-21 14:51
Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639
QT is really good, probably the best toolkit for any platform. Also PyQT is excellent. I can really recommend it to anyone who's willing to live with the bloat. :-)
2009-02-25 08:52
jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578
If I'd be developing a tool, I'd seriously consider to make a Linux or Mac version just to please those three (ok sorry, make that four) C64 sceners who are using only those platforms, not to mention the target subset of that group: the guy and his beardy friend who would perhaps actually use my software and draw pixel penises for their hilariously funny fake-demo. So probably the best I'd get from trashing my precious free time for porting my program to other platforms would be Deekay's lovely comment on how happy he is to see a Mac version. Ok, that's actually damn fucking motivating, but not enough to replace the time I'd spend on work instead of drinking myself to dead with my pals.

Anyway don't get me wrong, I also use Linux quite frequently, love and support the shit, but I see no friggin problem with moving my ass to my other machine to use the oh-so-evil Windoze when I have to.
2009-02-25 12:33
jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578
Oh by the way, Deekay.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, the thread is too long and I didn't read it.
But man, don't you find your stance a bit hypocritical, considering your constant "I refuse to use Windows in any way" whimper? Id est (to paraphrase it to how I see it): I decline to change even in the slightest possible way, but in the same time I demand you to please my way of thinking and port the damn thing even if most likely no one will ever find it useful what you'll do; or else, I'll write angry comments on your product page and harass you till you don't promise me that you'll do something about it"
2009-02-25 13:39
Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317
Jailbird: I'm also a Mac user. I also will be happy to get a Mac port of any tool. Timanthes prefereably.
Regards
2009-02-25 14:13
jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578
Timanthes is a different story. It's a massive production and useful for a myriad of people - so yeah, ports would be damn great. Still, seeing a person crying over almost every single Windows-only release makes me tear out my pubic hair.
2009-02-25 14:22
Cruzer

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048
VICE shows the way..

http://www.viceteam.org/#download
Quote:
* Binary for MS-DOS (Pentium-optimized): vice21.zip
* Binary for MS-Windows 32bit (Pentium-optimized): WinVICE-2.1.zip
* Binary for Acorn RISC OS systems: vice-riscos2_1.zip
* Binary for BeOS systems: Please visit the BeOS download page.
* Binary for QNX systems: Please visit the QNX download page.
* Binary for OS/2 systems: vice2-2.1.zip.
* Binary for Solaris systems: Please visit the Solaris download page.
* Binary for SCO based systems: Please visit the SCO download page.
* Binary for Amiga based or derived systems: Please visit the Amiga download page.
* Binary for Mac OS X systems: Please visit the Mac OS X download page.
* Binary for GP2X systems: vice-gp2x-2.1.zip
* Binary for SkyOS systems: VICE-2.1.pkg
* Binary for Minix 3.x systems: vice-minix-2.1.tar.bz2
* Binary for Atari Mint systems: vice-2.1-1.m68kmint.rpm
2009-02-25 14:22
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
pics or it didnt happen!
2009-02-25 14:52
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299
Quote: Jailbird: I'm also a Mac user. I also will be happy to get a Mac port of any tool. Timanthes prefereably.
Regards


Works fine on my Mac.
Cant imagine using OSX without Parllels Desktop.
This way i have all the best of both worlds :)

---------
And now to the main topic of discussion:

Those that whine about other platforms are like people who refuse to use planes and cars and cry that they are not able to travel as fast.

You chose not to use window - ok. But stop crying that you don't have access to windows software. You made your choice - live with the consequences.

And give people right to write their stuff on whatever platform they choose to. They have no obligation whatsoever to you. They are not charging you, just giving their work for free with their kindness. Respect that.

Those "do it multiplatform" retards, also cry when they see kids being given sweets by their parent - "i want my candy too!!!! whaaa!!!" Pathetic...
2009-02-25 15:39
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966
The OS war ensues.

I'm just waiting for the angry-pinguin liberation front to step in and demand their port.
2009-02-25 15:46
assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343
playstation portable port or gtfo
2009-02-25 15:47
Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411
Stainless Steel: This is pretty OS indepenent, me thinks. Windows people usually show the same behaviour if something is not available for their platform. Okay, they don't argue with "freedom" but more with "benefit for all", still...
2009-02-25 15:54
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966
Ninja : Let me guess, you're using Linux :-D

2009-02-25 16:41
Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411
Does it mean you disagree? :)
2009-02-25 20:13
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074
Quote: playstation portable port or gtfo

I have actually considered doing a PSP pixeling program. Shelved due to lack of time and limited audience.
2009-02-25 20:58
Stainless Steel

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966
Quote: Stainless Steel: This is pretty OS indepenent, me thinks. Windows people usually show the same behaviour if something is not available for their platform. Okay, they don't argue with "freedom" but more with "benefit for all", still...

Well, I'm as much of a windows user as it gets, and to add insult to injury - I'm a big fan of .NET and the whole Visual Studio range in general.
Uuh yeah evil Micros0ftz. Bite my shiny metal ass, DeeKay.

When i saw that nice looking SidPlayer for MacOS, i thought "Looks nice, too bad there isnt a windows version".
And guess what. That was it.

I did not then jump onto CSDb guns blazing, demanding my god given right not to be discriminated as a minority.

boo-fucking-hoo. Cry me a river.

DeeKay-X and the motherfucking black MacOS panthers FTW!

Seriously, as much as I love DeeKay and could hug him all day long (think metaphorically) I have to say, get bent.

2009-02-25 21:22
Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411
Okay, drop the "usually" from my earlier post and replace it with "can also". Been there, seen that :) And for the record, I use mainly Linux, and I reacted like you described when Timanthes came out. Looks good, pity about the platform, but well...

That's what I was saying before, there are these and those people on every platform (or even "topic" for a more general matter).
2009-02-26 00:35
null
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645
Quote:
When i saw that nice looking SidPlayer for MacOS, i thought "Looks nice, too bad there isnt a windows version".
And guess what. That was it.


yeah, same here. would love a port, but meh. what's the use whining about it? only makes it less likely to happen if the creator is anything like me.

------------------------------------
http://zomgwtfbbq.info
2009-02-26 09:28
Majikeyric

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 83
Making a cross platform tool is a big effort deserving salutes, crying for a port on another platform is stupid, you want a port for your platform ? Just do it yourself I provide the sources ! I'm currently making cross tools essentialy for my own use why would I port them for platforms I don't care about ? to satisfy 4 people in the world ? No interest in doing so. Hey guyz the tools are free and your are not already satisfied with that ??? When you will pay for the tools and I will want to make money I will reconsider the question... :D

I prefer working on 3 tools for 1 platform than working on 1 tool for 3 platforms.

(And yeah .NET rules! :D).
2009-02-26 15:31
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299
Quote: I have actually considered doing a PSP pixeling program. Shelved due to lack of time and limited audience.


Speaking of pixeling on handhleds... There is that nice painting program on Nintendo DS and iPhone i make gallery for (look into my sig). Well, its not pixeling, painting rather, but if you are into graphics a bit you might want to take a look.

----------
http://colors.collectingsmiles.com
2009-02-27 10:20
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647
WINDOWS SUCKS!!!! THAT'S A FUCKING FACT AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU CAN SMOKE SOME COCAINE WITH YOUR ASS!!
2009-02-27 10:34
Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317
Frantic: Windows sucks in the same way as Linux as Mac. It's only a operating system, addresses other requirements that Mac os X or Linux.

Guys let's stop this stupid arguing.
2009-02-27 10:43
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647
Haha.. Dude, I was just kidding. I hope that was obvious to everyone. (For example, you don't really smoke cocaine.. ;)
2009-02-27 10:56
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360
it's called crack dude.... and some here seem to be actually smoking it =P
2009-02-27 11:14
Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647
With their ass?
2009-02-27 11:26
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299
Quote: With their ass?

In some cases i wouldn't be surprised :)
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