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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Milestone Demo?
Hello, CSDb denizens:
I'm writing what I hope to be a series of articles covering the demo scene for a U.S. Commodore oriented newsletter covering the 8-bit scene.
I'm planning on writing an article on what would be considered a 'milestone' demo. A demo that was so technically brilliant and elegant and revitalized the demo industry.
My current nomination is 'Dutch Breeze' by Blackmail. Before this demo, the demo scene consisted of scrollytexts, some math, some DYCP's, sprite trickery in the borders, VSP's and FLD's.
After this demo burst on the scene, it paved the way for truly innovative demos like Krestology, where rich and colorful graphics now grace the screens.
Your thoughts?
-Todd Elliott
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
Why only write about one milestone demo...
dont forget the first trackmo on c64 (i am note sure... but wasnt that elysium by origo ?? ) and comalight 12 introducing the o so popular 4x4 half fli resolution . |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
My advice, contact people who are experst in this area. Maybe even make a survey between such ppl. There is for sure no exact milestone. Think Twice (;-) before you pick up just one demo. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
To me personally
Dawnfall/Oxyron was a milestone, because it was so good and just one file
Access Denied/Reflex was a milestone because it introduced (to me) a new style in demos which was later followed by a lot
World of Code/Byterapers was a milestone because it send shockwaves through us sceners, being so happy Mr.Sex was back.
Courtesy of Sovjet/Wrath because of it innovating gfx/design
Wonderland series/Censor & Contex demos because of their digis AND to ME it was shoocking to see Perff/Noname come up with a FOUR channel digi player in Crazy World 3, and later on in Voodoo People (coded by cyberbrain/noname)
Well, hope this helps a little, remember this is only my opinion.
BTW> ask The dark judge for the time b4 Dutch Breeze, he can probably tell you more SHOCKING and INTERESTING milestones.
And to other, what do you think??
celtic/joost |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Ofcourse it all depends who you ask. Dutch Breeze was a milestone, but not the first demo of its kind, just the first one that had such a big impact.
One of my personal milestones: Psykolog by Panoramic Designs. First time a demo *really* gave me cold chills.
Sander wrote an excellent article about the significance and history of the c64 demo scene a while ago. As important demo's he mentions, apart from Dutch Breeze, That's The Way It Is/Scoop, 3rd Dimension/Bonzai and Red Storm/Triad. All milestones for sure.
Unfortunately the article is in dutch only, but if there's enough interest in it, I might translate it. |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello, 'The Dark Judge'
You wrote:
<<<
Sander wrote an excellent article about the significance and history of the c64 demo scene a while ago. As important demo's he mentions, apart from Dutch Breeze, That's The Way It Is/Scoop, 3rd Dimension/Bonzai and Red Storm/Triad. All milestones for sure.
Unfortunately the article is in dutch only, but if there's enough interest in it, I might translate it.
>>>
I'm interested. If the article isn't too long, I'd appreciate a translation. If it is long, maybe you can run it under those translation utilities on the Internet and simply refine the rough English a little.
I have never heard of any of the demos you mentioned. I've heard of the Triad group. Thanks for your feedback and I'll check out these demos later.
While Dutch Breeze is a ground-breaking demo, I hesistate to nominate it with 100% confidence; It was introduced in 1992 and I remember seeing impressive demos before that. If I'm going to write an article picking one demo above all others, I'd better be right. :)
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i don't think there's a single milestone demo that can be pointed at as "the one" - and "Dutch Breeze", although i like it, isn't the top of my personal list. "Mathematica" by Reflex, "Krestology" by Crest, "Dawnfall" and "Oneder" by Oxyron and a few others rate above it in my book... |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
It is really hard to find "the one" demo. It's all about taste, coders, musician and graphicians have a different opinion about their "milestone". Another point is how long you are involved into those stuff, let's say you started demoloving/watching at the end of the 80ies, then you really know the standards of that time (you lived it) and some demos that were really great back then are totally lame for someone that started later, e.g. in 1992 (Rasterbars ? FLD ? BOOORING) I don't want to say that you cannot have any opinion if you aren't involved for centuries but it makes a difference. Watching the old demos now ain't the same, your background is by far too big :-D.
If you are interested in some personal views of some well known coders about their favourite demos, then check vandalism new #34. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Slator has a more than valid point, i started out back when C64s were in black and white (well, not literally) so i list "Future Shock" by the Borderzone Dezign Team as one of my all-time favourites. Even by 1986 standards that's not an impressive demo, but i still *like* it a lot because it hangs together well. It was also the first demo i ever saw... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Future Shock rocked .. a lot of those 'old' demo's contained a certain vibe which was sadly missed later on. Remember the Jazzcat demos? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Anyway, back on topic: I think we (myself included) are forgetting the difference between personal favorites and real milestones. Meaning in the last case it IS possible to see the effect on the whole scene. For example those ugly demo's from the mid 90's were mostly based on demo's by Oxyron and Reflex.
So the question to the 'experts' should not be: what's your milestone, but "what demo do you think was a milestone for the whole scene". Let's leave our personal tastes at home in this case guys :) |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 266 |
A milestone _and_ personal favourite (yes, yes, we should be keeping those a part, but isn't that kinda hard) in my mind is "digital messiah" by Megastyle. Unfortunatetly it hardly caused more similar demos.
/Frank |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
A milestone I'm surprised noone mentions was SO-PHISTICATED III introducing FLI.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: A milestone _and_ personal favourite (yes, yes, we should be keeping those a part, but isn't that kinda hard) in my mind is "digital messiah" by Megastyle. Unfortunatetly it hardly caused more similar demos.
/Frank
Interesting I pointed out this demo at #c-64 few hours ago ;-). Maybe it's not a Milestone, but definitely it has got the power. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Urban myth deletion: it's ofcourse not called Digital Messiah but Seal Of Focalor.
And it SHOULD have been a milestone. It was spread very poorly if I remember correctly, at TP4 I was one of the few who had it, even if it was already out for quite some time. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
many people love seal of focalor, but not many know the demo's name :) i remember leeching it from warez aquarium in the summer of 95. i had already made sledge & tranziie pissed by leeching so much, and now i had quite alot of what was in the demo dir. the truncated name seemed odd, 'seal of foca.'. foca means seal in spanish:) but i downloaded it and was quite shocked. unfortunately a friend borrowed the disk so i had not seen it for a few years, but after creamd mentioned it and it was discussed here i fetched it again and i appreciate it even more now than i did then.
its funny that there have been some demos that really are different, are called milestones and loved by many, but they had no followers. i guess it just takes too much time and skills to make a demo like seal of focalor, than say using some math formulas to make another generic version of an accepted effect. but also demos with a style that is simpler(or might seem more simple), like some of the effects in the panoramic demos had no followers either.
but it seems like people need to space out more :)
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i don't normally "do" concept demos, but "Seal of Focalor" (yeah, i used to call it "Digital Messiah" until Kenz corrected me =-) is something i've watched a fair few times. It doesn't manage to be as spooky as the first time i saw it, but it's still an excellent piece of work.
At a guess, i think the reason nobody went near the idea of cloning it was because it would have been too *obviously* a copy.
On the other hand, "Dutch Breeze" took the 'heavily laden with presentation' idea and pushed it up a few notches; it was a milestone but more of a logical progression than anything explosive. i still love the rez-up on its endpart (the logo) and the Elite FLI scroller... |
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zyruz
Account closed
Posts: 33 |
here you got Rotteroy and Scroll's original statement to Seal Of focalor.
Seal Of Focalor ! (For some reason many lamers out there tought that this demo was called "Digital Messiah!". For your information, Digital Messiah was the words we always put on top of our disk-headers at that time. So rename your files in your demo list!!!) We did the last touch for this demo in november 1992, and we tought we should spread it at a miniparty in Trondheim arranged by Hoaxers. We did not spread it there, as the party was a great dissapointment, and we drove to a hotel and stayed there for the weekend instead! Why should we bother to spread the demo at a party with only Amiga lamers and two 64 dudes from Hoaxers??? The Seal Of Focalor is probably one of the deepest demos ever made on the C64, and was our farewell to the demo scene. It was supposed to be the funeral of Megastyle with a lot of evil influenced graphic and Metallica samples. Cycleburner made his best part ever when he did the "GREED" part, and the atmosphere of the demo provocated a lot of sceners, sending us letters asking if we where into Ku Klux Klan and Satanic Organisations. But it wasn't as serious as many took it, just try to load the hidden files on both disk sides and watch for yourself! The demo was hardly spread, and it is a cult object on todays c64 scene. It was also in this demo we officially changed from Megastyle Inc. (MSI) into Megastyle Productions (MSP).
Sparkler said something like .. Seal of Focalor was more a Movie like demo. and i fully agree with him. ;)
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zyruz
Account closed
Posts: 33 |
i miss demos from Bones here... The Larch (esp. no.3) was impressive. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Zyruz: allow me to copy that statement into the CSDB entry for SoF ;) And allow me to reset my previous 'TP4' statement to 'TP3' (which also fits better with the image in my head, as I remember showing it to someone on that party)
As for The Larch 3: good demo, but why is it a milestone? |
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zyruz
Account closed
Posts: 33 |
TDJ, ofcourse.. ;)
about the Larch, well i think it has got everthing a decent demo needs.. good coding, good grafix and good music.. well okay, it can't compete with demos such as "Dutch Breeze" ..but for _me_ it is a milestone anyway.. *) .. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352 |
other than those already mentioned....
ESCOS by 1001Crew (first full open borders)
Think Twice by The Judges (first FLD)
Sign'o'times by Weird Science (by NOP aka Cycleburner, i think one of the first that had samples plus a decent effect - dycp here)
Microsleep and Bound2BeBestII by XAKK (incredible sideborder and samples stuff for its time, most underrated demogroup ever ;=P)
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 266 |
Bones... Definatetly worth mentioning.
/Frank |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: other than those already mentioned....
ESCOS by 1001Crew (first full open borders)
Think Twice by The Judges (first FLD)
Sign'o'times by Weird Science (by NOP aka Cycleburner, i think one of the first that had samples plus a decent effect - dycp here)
Microsleep and Bound2BeBestII by XAKK (incredible sideborder and samples stuff for its time, most underrated demogroup ever ;=P)
"Think Twice 3" was the first partial spluit
Xakk did some amazing stuff, i didn't see a lot of it until recently but "BTBB 2" is *brutal* stuff. i remember "Microsleep" well for the fullscreen part with the samples from "Barbarian" and the sideborder scrolls...
Speaking of which, "Contest Demo" by Finnish Gold was a bit of a milestone for that brutal corkscrew scroller (maybe not original but the best of it's kind in my book). Also, there was that cool fullscreen starfield in "Vertigo"'s intro.
Another milestone i've just remembered, "VSP&*IK+" by the Meanteam - the first VSP. |
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zyruz
Account closed
Posts: 33 |
talking about worlds-first as milestones.. what about "Kalle Kloakk" ? ..
first Mandelbrot
first FLI-Plasma
first Vertical Rasterbars
and perhaps the first real smooth and fast Vector on the c64 (?).. ;) |
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Black Belt Jones
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 57 |
dont hate me for this one peepl, im gonna pitch in with a demo called Breakthrough2 by Panic creations. Sure it was no killer, but i though the soundtrack was awesome. nice mood. it was a demo that sucked me into getting more demos. that
soiled legacy i also enjoyed,
not because of any revolutionary code but just the presentation, the atmosphere changes combined with the music. so when the end credits roll with a suitable track along with it, you get a nice feeling of completion.
sometimes i feel that the general mood and feeling of a demo does a LOT. Like when you finish watching an awesome movie. thats how you gotta feel. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
And once again we're back to personal favorites instead of milestones .. Take a look at the list by Groepaz, that one contains demo's that changed the scene .. Soiled Legacy did no such thing (yet).
Firsttime FLD: yes
More effects already done before: no
www.dictionary.com will tell you what a milestone is if you don't understand :) |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I remember when Gnu/The Ancient Temple (a local computer friend 10 years ago) and me received BTTB 2 we were so excited of the marvellous music, we had to tap it on cassette at once, and let one go by it. :)
Nice to see there others who a fans of Xakk, it's not only Xakk who are very underrated but also Knatter as musician.
Milestone (and I mean milestone): Road of Excess of Triangle for its xcellent use of hires gfx.
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
That's Design/Crazy was pretty innovating for its time! (1989)
You should check it out, it got some neat graphics/music/coding. |
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Black Belt Jones
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 57 |
I looked in dictionary.com it said:
Milestone: personal favourite. :-)
I apologise, i did word that post like theyre my favourites.
Dark Judge, theyre not on top of my personal favourites list, but I believe they were milestones in the PRESENTATION stakes. Sure there are many technically more worthy demos but these two flowed nicely along until the end. All music was timed and matched to each part to perfection. Some demos hang on one pic/fx for like 2 minutes. I just wanted to say that FX arent all that should make a milestone. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
BBJ, I know a milestone can be a personal favourite too, but if you check the first post in the thread, it's clear that that's not what Eyeth was interested in. If people want to give a list of their personal faves, I suggest they open a new topic :)
And no matter what you say, there's no way in hell anybody can believe Breakthrough 2 'revitalized the demo industry' :) |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
hmm, i actually liked breakthrough2 when it came out. its things like that makes you wonder what kind of person you really are. too bad that the demos by panic only got worse and worse after that.
can we really call the demos by panoramic designs or seal of focalor milestones? they werent that well spread(atleast i didnt see anything by pd before 98) and they dont seem to have had much impact on other demos. sure alot of people like them and feel that they had a revitalizing effect on people personally, but not on the demoscene as a whole. what had impact was different technical tricks and mathematical effects. |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
sorry to question your swapping contacts, Hollowman, but Panoramic demos were always well spread. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Panoramic Designs demos have a lot of subtle but well thought out ideas. Some of them are hard to recongnise on first look. Not only technically are their demos briliant. They also go very deep under ones skin. Even the simplest effect like shivering scrolltext in the beginning of That's the wave it is, is something which was never used in C64 demo before, or was it ;-)). The last part, the Wave, has so touching music.
Or that scroller chasing scroller in last part of Mentallic (was it mentallic? I'm not sure) it was shock when I first saw it Technically brilliant and also emotionally very strong. And I'm sure I could go on like this for few more minutes/hours?
roman
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
rOuGh, you are probably right. but i never had many contacts, my small demo collection was built by going through peoples diskboxes and leeching from the local boards. the closest i came to pd was 'we love olav/fhi'. but i remember a photo of some PD guys in one of the swedish computer magazines
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: rOuGh, you are probably right. but i never had many contacts, my small demo collection was built by going through peoples diskboxes and leeching from the local boards. the closest i came to pd was 'we love olav/fhi'. but i remember a photo of some PD guys in one of the swedish computer magazines
Roman, couldn't agree with you more. PD were one of the few crews who could really stir up emotions with their productions. Parapsykolog *scared* me for god's sake, even most so called thrillers and horror-movies fail to do that.
To me reaching such an 'analog' level with a digital product, that's a milestone right there :)
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Vengeance
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 22 |
That demo from Modern Arts (MDA) with the sample in it was awesome for its time.But Thats design/Crazy was great. I also really liked demos like Heinikien 2 /Deathsector. And
Promethues unbound/ Flash Inc.
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
From the top of my head..
1001 crew - Border Scroll
-first border-scroller with text on
The Judges - Think Twice
-first FLD
Mr. Cursor - Double Density
-First VSP and LineCrunch
Blackmail - So-Phisticated 3
-first FLI
Reflex - Mathematica
-groundbraking math for its time, really changed math-oriented demos.
Oxyron - Oneder
-Amazing whats crammed in those 50k
Crest - Krestology
-set a new level for technical & graphical excellence
I'm sure there are more i cant remember right now.. too tired :)
Raven/64ever |
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Optic
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 28 |
I would like to add the productions from
Digitize Design Group (DDG)..
Weren't they the first to do digi-stuff on c64 intros/demos?
the year was 1987 or 1988 if i remember right.. |
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6R6
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 245 |
I have a demo from 1988 from Broadcasting Systems something,
that one could be the first irq-load demo. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I have a demo from 1988 from Broadcasting Systems something,
that one could be the first irq-load demo.
Could that be Digital Broadcasting System (DBS)? I remember ABS 3001 was a member of that group, and he made a great demo together with Zen of Sphinx. Don't remember the name anymore, just that it was one of those demos which made me real depressed because I could never reach such a high level. |
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6R6
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 245 |
Quote: Could that be Digital Broadcasting System (DBS)? I remember ABS 3001 was a member of that group, and he made a great demo together with Zen of Sphinx. Don't remember the name anymore, just that it was one of those demos which made me real depressed because I could never reach such a high level.
Yes, I think thats the name of the group.
Digital Broadcasting System. |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
Quote: Could that be Digital Broadcasting System (DBS)? I remember ABS 3001 was a member of that group, and he made a great demo together with Zen of Sphinx. Don't remember the name anymore, just that it was one of those demos which made me real depressed because I could never reach such a high level.
...and it was in DBS he (ABS3001) invented the "deathcolors-routine", very cool indeed! :-)
/icon |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello, again.
I'm in the process of setting up a voting chart. So far, I've come up with five demos for the Milestone chart:
Dawnfall
Dutch Breeze
Krestology
Mathematica
Seal of Focalor
It would be nice to add five more names so I can nicely round it off for the chart. Any suggestions would be very much welcome.
Thanks,
-Todd Elliott |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
red storm/triad
coma light 12/oxyron
that's design/crazy
courtesy of sovjet/wrath designs
fressepissen/metalvotze
and there's sure atleast one more demo from crest and a demo from horizon who would fit in that list, but they have released so many great(revolutionary) demos so check em out.
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Besides the ones allready mentioned I think the following productions could be classified as milestones for the c64 demoscene, allthough not all are demos or even c64 productions.
Crackers Revenge/Sodan (1985) - A game, but the intro features the first ever opening of borders. The birth of VIC manipulation?
TechTech/Sodan+Magician42, Amiga demo (1987) - The first multi part demo ever (atleast that's what Sodan claims) and one of the first demos I ever saw. For me this demo represents the birth of the demoscene. Also features the first techtech'er ever.
Lots of other Amiga and PC demos could be mentioned too, since most non-c64-hardware-specific fx like filled vector, plasma, rotzoomers, texture mapping, etc, was invented on these systems.
The Last Tracktor 3/Horizon or Visuality 3/Visual Reality (1992) Came out about the same time, dunno which one was first. Anyway, these were the first demos to implement the flood filling technique known from the Amiga on the C64. And this meant filled vector at a decent speed for the first time. Quite an achevement, since the amiga uses the hardware (the blitter chip) to do the filling trick, while it has to be implemented in software on the c64. And furthermore the c64 hasn't got several bitplanes like the amiga but has to rely on the multicolor mode.
Parts/Oxyron (1995) - The invention of the zoomer/wobbler effect, which is one of the most impressive c64 fx ever imho.
Slideshows like Krestology and Dutch Breeze are pretty kewl too, but doesn't really count as milestones in my book. [Ducks and runs for cover] :) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@cruzer:
last traktor 3 was released in june 92 and visualty 3 in december 92/beginning of 93... you forgot of a far more important demo:
elysion by origo. that demo was released in april 92 and is to my knowledge the first c64 demo implementing the floodfiller tech, and also the first true "trackmo" on c64. |
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Genius
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 25 |
I think that Dutch Breeze certainly is the most famous and discussed demo in the Golden Age of C64 and also reference material for all newer demos.
That's Design from Crazy was also an impressive and remarkable demo which even got attention on German television back then!
As a graphician I think design is much more important in a demo than groundbreaking code. After Dutch Breeze design became much more important than coding horizontal and vertical line-crunching-open-border-D.Y.C.P.F.L.I.V.S.P.-plasma-filled-vecor-raster-scrol lbars(!!??!)
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
@Graham:
I actually meant Visiality 2, which was released in summer 1992.
But you're right, Elysion/Origo had totally slipped out of my mind for some reason. That's gotta be the 1st floodfiller on c64, and the 1st trackmo aswell. Dunno why I was under the impression that Mitch/Visual Reality was the inventer of c64 floodfilling. I also thought Digital Madness/Brutal was the 1st trackmo. Well, guess you learn something new every day. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote: Could that be Digital Broadcasting System (DBS)? I remember ABS 3001 was a member of that group, and he made a great demo together with Zen of Sphinx. Don't remember the name anymore, just that it was one of those demos which made me real depressed because I could never reach such a high level.
TDJ: Could that demo be Hell House? It has an irq loader and was pretty cool for its time:
Hell House |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: TDJ: Could that demo be Hell House? It has an irq loader and was pretty cool for its time:
Hell House
It is and it was. Quite recentely I checked a lot of dutch demos from that era and bumped into quite a few products by ABS. Hell House is by far his best, really outstanding. Unfortunately he concentrated on dycp's only later on when he was in Sphinx ..
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
about "trackmos".
Horzion released the demo Xpertelligence in 1989. Just one file so no loading, still it has the same flow as the later trackmos.
Also Red Storm/Triad was one of the earlier trackmos released the summer of 1992, though the files are unhidden.
Digital Madness/Brutal was released in september/october 92? I remember Tjost/Jam was quite disappointed since they had used shade bobs, which our uppcomming demo also included. If I'm not completly wrong that demo was the first to use shade bobs? |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello.
I've come up with ten such demos for the Milestone Demo Voting Chart. They are:
Dawnfall
Dutch Breeze
Elysion
ESCOS
Krestology
Mathematica
One-Der
Seal of Focalor
So-phisticated III
Think Twice
Before this voting chart appears on CSDb, I hope I don't have to change my mind. I know there'll be some flak as to why a particular demo wasn't included or why this one was included, etc. I hope these ten demos are pretty representative of how such demos can advance the demo scene, and wield influence on future demo releases.
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
I'm sure Dwangi will be disappointed that Fressepissen wasn't included. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
aka DuschenBumsen. Amazing how they tweak the VIC! |
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
Eyeth, do you also write something about the worst demo in c64 history?
.: Intensity :. |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Quote: Eyeth, do you also write something about the worst demo in c64 history?
.: Intensity :.
Hello.
Not really. Not only is it negative, I feel it just isn't constructive and 'newsworthy'. However, I do know of a couple of demos that were widespread and vastly overrated. The TRAP demo, a.k.a. 'Gladiator' demo is one such example. Fruit of the Doom demo is an another glaring example and is the leading (downloads) demo at C64.CH.
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott |
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
Oh, I see!
But for the case that you are interested in the worst demos in the c64 history, please memorize the group "Metalvotze". Everything else is self-explanatory! ;)
.: Intensity :. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Hello.
Not really. Not only is it negative, I feel it just isn't constructive and 'newsworthy'. However, I do know of a couple of demos that were widespread and vastly overrated. The TRAP demo, a.k.a. 'Gladiator' demo is one such example. Fruit of the Doom demo is an another glaring example and is the leading (downloads) demo at C64.CH.
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott
The TRAP demo is a true classic. |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello.
Thanks to Perff and the NoName crew, I have set up a milestone voting chart. It's at:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/milestonedemo
Any questions, comments, etc., please post here or send me a private message.
Please participate in the voting. Let's try to get an overall consensus as to what truly is a milestone demo for the C64 demo scene.
Enjoy!
-Todd Elliott |
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Oxidy
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 80 |
Is that really all milestone demo contributions you could come up with?? 10 demos, of which many are from the mid-nineties, out of thousands of released demos. Well, ok. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
And no Panoramic demo. Oh well. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Including Mathematica, Krestology and Oneder into the voting chart is quite strange.
As far as Milestone demo of all times is concerned I don't think it can be seriously found this way. Demos can be technical milestones (many), other are design milestones (many), art milestones (A quoi ca sert? ;), personal milestones, musical milestones, emotional milestones, party compo milestones.. whatever milestones. I really don't think having for example Think Twice as milestone would be satisfying. If we really want to find milestones it should be set year by year, maybe even month by month with complete reasons given for each selected demo. Picking up one demo out from historical contexts and putting it on piedestal? Some of us will have to explain a lot of things to their children... ;-)
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
Maybe would be better with no selection, you could vote on which demo you want.
btw will those votes be transparant? :) |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
i'd give my vote for a qui ca sert? since it's
a demo that could be interesting to a person
who hasnt spent most of his life in this
little narrowminded world called demoscene,
being indoctrinated with what the limitations
of c64 are, and what a cool demo is supposed
to look like. i believe it has qualities that
could be appreciated outside this ghetto,
and therefor its a milestone
and the lack of panoramic demos doesnt make this
any better.
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
compiling a list of milestone demos with their respective milestone, that would be far more interesting for c64 history. |
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Oxidy
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 80 |
If we REALLY need to vote for THE ONE AND ONLY milestone demo, then go with Dwangi's suggestion. Let everyone vote for what they think is milestones, preferably with a comment. Then it's just up to Eyeth to compile the results.
But, better still, go with Shake's suggestion.
How can you measure design milestones vs code milestones and say one is more important than the other. You can't, therefor the whole concept of finding THE milestone demo is quite stupid. Compile a list, and leave it at that.
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello.
This is the kind of flak I was expecting and it is welcomed. :) I know I will never be able to compile a list that will include noteworthy releases and geninue milestones. I can only try to pick ten demos to make a nice rounded list and can only hope for the best.
Maybe, in my hubris, in finally awarding a milestone demo winner out of this voting chart, there will be the lively discussion (flamefest, even) that follows when the results are announced. I can live with that.
Just remember that all I want to do is to write an article about one demo that is a true milestone and then write about other noteworthy releases. This voting chart will help me a lot, and lend some sense of validation and credibility.
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Quote: Maybe would be better with no selection, you could vote on which demo you want.
btw will those votes be transparant? :)
Hello, Dwangi-
The votes would be transparent to the voting authority (me). :) I mainly did this as I wanted to ensure that there were no voting irregularities, i.e., mysterious handles voting for a certain demo entry.
I would be hesistant to release the transparent votes onto the CSDb forum, and I'm leaning towards against such a release. That said, there's a chance that the voting results will be released for all to see.
-Todd Elliott |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 266 |
What about the Double Density demo by Mr. Cursor with that diagonal graphic scroller.
And some Panoramic Design demos are missing, too ;-)
/Frank |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
People have asked me why i choosed fressepissen/metalvotze as i milestone demo.
Well, in the last screen they use a very special gfx-format. The undocument ECP-mode (extended colour palette)-mode. It was meant that you could use this mode by setting bit 0 in $d032, and then you could use colours of a palette of 32 real colours. But actually failed to implement this mode correct.
Metalvotze did som trix to use this "undocement" register and with that they can get some of the "undocument colours"
You can f.e see a totally new yellow colour.
I dont know exactly how MV did this but afaik this one takes a lot of rastertime, even so much RT that they couldn't play any music and AFAIK this do not work well on NTSC-machines and on emulators you can't see the "new" colours.
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
That Fressenpissen demo with new undocumented colors sounds like a joke demo to me. Disclaimer: I haven't seen it. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
I bet that it is just fabulation. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
It's just interlace with two multicolor pictures alternating each frame. Nothing special and very easy to implement |
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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Hello.
Thanks goes to all sixty voters who participated! I appreciate you taking the time to consider the Milestone demo topic and for your votes.
The voting ended last October 31st, 2003. Here are the voting results:
Demo # 1st # 2nd # 3rd
Dawnfall 3 12 10
Dutch Breeze 16 9 7
Elysion 7 2 3
Escos 5 3 5
Krestology 100% 8 11 9
Mathematica 7 5 9
One-Der 3 6 6
Seal of Focalor 2 5 3
So-phisticated III 3 3 4
Think Twice 6 4 3
I have come up with a point system for the demo chart: Three points are awarded for a first place vote, two points are awarded for a second place vote and one point is awarded for a third place vote. That way, demos that receive votes are guaranteed points and the demo that has the most points would be considered the #1 milestone demo.
According to my calculations, it would be:
1) Dutch Breeze - 73 points
2) Krestology - 55 points
3) Dawnfall - 43 points
With 60 votes, this has been 99% unscientific, however, it has been a worthwhile and entertaining endeavor. Now, the hard part comes, writing an article about this. :)
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
If you were to show those 3 demos to people who have never seen a C64 demo, they would be stunned to see what the machine could do. And with a quick (mental) calculation, Mathematica/Reflex finished 4th - another milestone with its "hard" code. |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
The funny part is, I'd show the demos to outsiders in *exactly* that order to demonstrate how c64 demos evolved post-1991:
part 1 - combo of strong design/graphics/music: Dutch Breeze
part 2 - Dutch Breeze gone IFLI: Krestology
part 3 - Extremely cool effects and immortal music: Dawnfall
part 4 - The current trackmo standard: Mathematica
(although personally, I'd show Nine or Unsound Minds 2 at this point. And I'd probably throw in Red Storm too, since it's THE concept demo on c64, unequalled to this point) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: If you were to show those 3 demos to people who have never seen a C64 demo, they would be stunned to see what the machine could do. And with a quick (mental) calculation, Mathematica/Reflex finished 4th - another milestone with its "hard" code.
No they wouldn't, because most people do not realize that all those nifty graphic tricks are so special. I've shown several demos to non-sceners, and most of them were more impressed by non-technical productions than those with "hard" code.
Sceners need to learn to think "out of the box", so to speak :) |
