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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
What makes a demo? Really?
Looking at all the talk about the EoD and it being the "best" demo to date on the c64 brings up a topic I was throwing around in my head for sometime now.
Before I start congratz BD for the great demo and the hard work that you guys put into it. A very good product indeed to date on the c64.
I admit I was pounding the keyboard/website every day to finally get my hands on this. Like a piece of smack ready to light it up. Admit it everyone, YOU was one of those guys to pound on CSDB's doors looking for it.
But as I watched the demo I noticed something, I remember some demos back HCL said something to the fact that he refuses to do any PC type effects on this system. (This was some years ago). Which me being an old geezer and love the c64 stylish demos was happy to hear this.
But as the years went on and times have changed so has the demos. As I look around now most demos are more PC stylish instead of the c64ish that most have come to know. I think this is why some people say that this demo isn't thee "best" on the c64.
Which I can agree because everyone has there own tastes when it comes to demos. So now when I look at demos, I guess we can say retro demos compared to the demos of today, can you really compare them? And say well that is better, and this one is better.
I know there is ALOT of geezers out there my age and older then me and I think they can relate to this? I don't believe most "newer?" guys can relate to it.
Anyway, my question is what really makes a demo? If I have vectors in my demo and the next guy has some interlaced rasters, is the vector demo better? Yes yes I know what you will say, well it comes down to how its presented?
Ok so does presentation beat out technique/technical or is it visa versa? Or is it combination? I seen alot of talk about NW2 and how it just didn't have that "graham" twist to it? Graham meaning? Vectors?
I'm not slashin on anyone or anybody, like I said this question is something I kicked around upstairs in my head for awhile and I think maybe now is a great time to ask it?
Anyone?
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
A demo can be many things, just look around!
Some focus on images, some on music, some on code effects, and some like EoD combines it all.
For me, a good demo, is entertainment.
I am not so impressed by codepron, but more by the feeling i get - which will make me reload it later, to go back in that feeling, and experience it again.
Just like a good book or movie. |
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Codey
Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 79 |
i think EoD, Pears for Pigs and amplifire are all amazing demos. to label any demo as "the best" is a matter of opinion, especially considering you have to judge it during the time it was released and the impact it had on the scene.
as far as a total package - presentation with a balance of outstanding code, music, gfx, transitions, etc., much more detail is put into today's demos. i love the idea of sitting back and watching a presentation without pressing space to advance each page now a days.
personally, i'm more impressed by demos that changed the landscape forever. from the technical discoveries like removing the borders, fld, fli to the effects that pushed the 64 to cycle time limits like the first dycps, plotters, plasmas, rotozoomers etc. iirc, alot of this stuff was done on the amiga platform before the pc anyway.
there's a place for everything. i'm just glad in 2008 we continue to have amazing pieces of work to admire on this 25+ years old machine. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
Give me a call when you have settled this question once and for all, in a zillion years or so, okay? ;) |
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The Phantom
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 360 |
I think what makes a demo...
Lack of hitting space, #1!!!
Presentation. The flow of the demo, how well the music and graphics go with the code.
Things that make you're eyes grow a couple sizes larger, or even a routine that you've never thought possible on the c64.
Sometimes, user interaction (joystick/keyboard controls) make it that much nicer.
To call a demo "the best" is simply based on that particular users experience when watching the demo.
EoD made me smile, wonder and feel amazed. It made me feel as if the c64 had no limits and anticipated the next routine .
It was an amazing experience, but there are still things I've seen 8 years ago, that I haven't seen anybody else do, which makes that demo, a demo. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
What matters to me is the wow-effect you get when seeing something that hasn't been done before, that you might even have thought was impossible. This can be a new effect, a new gfx style, or even a cool tune. EoD was perfect in every aspect according to my taste, but what really gave it the "can't be done" feeling was the pace of it, which felt like a storm of effects, that seemingly didn't need any time to load or init, and to me that seems pretty out of this world considering how slow the c64 and especially the 1541 is. The only thing I can think of that comes close has been some onefilers like Dawnfall, but this went on for 15 minutes, so that definitely felt funky fresh.
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cavey
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 68 |
To me, the thing that makes a demo is some demonstration of code/music/graphics, in multiple parts.
How everything is linked doesn't matter. My plain definition is just that: multi part demonstration of graphics, music and code.
Some do an excellent job with linking the stuff (most recent example EoD :P), some just have multi parts and use spacebar to load next part (metallic orgasm ftw!)
Seemlessly linked parts, isn't that what a 'trackmo' is? :P
anyways, I thought this question was about "what defines a demo" and not so much as "what defines the best demo" ?
Oh, yeah, what makes the demo too is the content. Some person who is proud to show of his musical skills, or graphical skills, or coding skills.
Under that definition a slideshow is a demo as well. A demonstration of the graphician's work, and his skill. Proud enough to release it to the world.
So, hmmz, makes sense? :P |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
there's also some sort of not-so-relative way of defining it...: everything audiovisual and moving that is released in the demoscene that is not intro/music/graphics?
so anything not released in the demoscene is not a demo. not jeff minter's early stuff (psychedelia, horses, taurus, etc), not tubular bells, 8bitpeoples data flyers, sperma-soft, chantal goret, PD-stuff, some compunet stuff, etc. or any music video, performance, or art-piece that has been programmed and runs in real-time.
...
what do u think? |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
"realtime generated audiovisual art". that's what I tell non-sceners when they ask what a demo is. it might not be a perfect description, but it does come close. if they are still intrested in it after I tell them that, then I explain it a bit more in detail.
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: Give me a call when you have settled this question once and for all, in a zillion years or so, okay? ;)
Well it was more of a question, not a question to gain a solution, just to see what people think about the question itself as with me.
And from the responses people see demos in all different shapes and forms. Some like "slideshows" others "presentation" or "wow effect".
I myself like all, there was a good point that rambones brought up about it being like a good book. Everyone has there favor old type book that they read some years back and always remembers it.
The "wow effect" is a big plus for me also, I don't think there is any feeling like sitting there with your mouth open and saying WTF??? OMG!!!! FUUUUUUUUUCK!!! And that and more came out my mouth for EoD, but it also came out my mouth for NW2, Amplifire and ofcourse some others.
I think the "wow effect" is something that keeps you coming back to watch the demo over and over. When I say "wow effect" to me it doesn't have to be something new, its something that is presented "differently".
Dawnfall's rasters at the end, before the doom maze. Now that to me (on top of the other stuff ofcourse) a wow effect for me, not because it was something technical but because it was so neatly done.
I guess this is what I am talking about when I asked the question about "What makes a demo". Give me some examples of what makes a demo for YOU? Cruzer has I understand what/where you are coming from.... Anyone else?
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quote: What matters to me is the wow-effect you get when seeing something that hasn't been done before, that you might even have thought was impossible. This can be a new effect, a new gfx style, or even a cool tune. EoD was perfect in every aspect according to my taste, but what really gave it the "can't be done" feeling was the pace of it, which felt like a storm of effects, that seemingly didn't need any time to load or init, and to me that seems pretty out of this world considering how slow the c64 and especially the 1541 is. The only thing I can think of that comes close has been some onefilers like Dawnfall, but this went on for 15 minutes, so that definitely felt funky fresh.
I second that! It's the pace!!! The beast begins with nice pictures, kewl sound then some simple 2 lines "proudly presents"... And this is when the final gear is already reached! You fly through the demo and have no time to swallow what you get served. Those who have NOT seen it on the big screen might not understand/share this opinion?!
[Edit]
Just to be more precise: X2008 Democompo was teh megashow!
[/Edit] |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
this question cannot be answered. what makes a good music? a nice painting? a nicely designed web page? |
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cavey
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 68 |
Ofcourse, a good demo is one which gets Oswald's seal of approval.
Without that, it's nothing. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
EOT |
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VIC
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 73 |
Quote: this question cannot be answered. what makes a good music? a nice painting? a nicely designed web page?
Chuck Norris does all of those... |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: I second that! It's the pace!!! The beast begins with nice pictures, kewl sound then some simple 2 lines "proudly presents"... And this is when the final gear is already reached! You fly through the demo and have no time to swallow what you get served. Those who have NOT seen it on the big screen might not understand/share this opinion?!
[Edit]
Just to be more precise: X2008 Democompo was teh megashow!
[/Edit]
Ah yes, see I have not had the pleasure of seeing demos on the big screen (well my big 60in teley) with many people cheering and all. Thats just an experience in itself. Maybe one day I will get the plane over and see a X.
I do think that makes a huge difference due to the experience in itself.
@oswald: Hehe.. Lets simplify it for you then, so technical with you (meaning the question) I should have known I couldn't get away with this with you.
So lets say for you, what do YOU call a good demo?
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Again this is general question, I'm not asking what demo do you think can beat out this or that. I am asking what do you think makes a demo? (for YOU not for everyone)
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: Chuck Norris does all of those...
\0/
C H U C K!!!!!
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Spectator
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 35 |
Is there anything such as "pc effects"?
The PC is just a platform which ppl use to compile on. If the PC would be non existent and the c64 would still be the only platform most ppl would be compiling similar stuff as they now do on pc (with their abilities being the limiting factor).
Just cause it's new doesn't mean it's infected. Things evolve.
To me a killer demo is any production which expresses new views, which then highly influence the ideas of others.
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
A good demo for me is a demo that makes me feel something that in some way has a positive impact on my life. |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: Is there anything such as "pc effects"?
The PC is just a platform which ppl use to compile on. If the PC would be non existent and the c64 would still be the only platform most ppl would be compiling similar stuff as they now do on pc (with their abilities being the limiting factor).
Just cause it's new doesn't mean it's infected. Things evolve.
To me a killer demo is any production which expresses new views, which then highly influence the ideas of others.
Well for me I didn't have an amiga (actually got a 1000 later tho) and got a PC first. Which at the time some demos from people like future crew was making demos on there. So when I refer to stuff as being "pc effects" thats due to what I said above.
I'm not sure as to which effects came out first on which platform. But I do know, do to the limited hardware on the PC most stuff was vector based. No real raster/blitter support during that time. Unlike the amiga with all its nice hardware support.
So that is why I say "pc effects", amiga had them also but they also had c64ish effects also. Someone had a topic going about "no new raster effects" or something to that nature. Which if it's not a raster effect what would you call it?
PC effect? Amiga effect? Effect?
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
a raster effect is any effect that uses $d011/$d012?
I dunno, maybe I'm being to general now...
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
If you mean: What makes a good demo, some words spring to mind:
Balance
Design (a theme holding everything together can be difficult)
Originality
Style (ask TDJ/Focus, hell tell you all about that ;)
Size (2 disk sides being ideal - and allows for the Turn Disk pt.)
Hitting uncharted technical limits (for the extra wow factor)
Mix all 5 and that pretty much generates the ultimate demo.
everyone has there own tastes - This is one area no demo can guarantee success.
For me the ultimate demo would contain 1x each effect known on the C64 (and possibly none seen before). These effects would be perfectly executed, contain jaw dropping graphics, equally impressive audio, and transist between one another. No part would repeat. As well as effects, other parts to include would include: Greetings , Turn Disk, Intro, The End, and an animation of some sort (everyone has there own tastes).
All in all, quite a tall order, an impossible order.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
On this I can be very brief (yeah, as if): to me a good demo is one that stirs up emotions, of any kind. Euphoria for example, which is something Edge of Disgrace apparently managed to do last week at the X, but fear & sadness are much more interesting to me, negative or not. That's one of the reasons why I hold Brief Bursts of Happiness so dear. And all those other things mentioned here before (coding, graphics, design, even concept) are just the building blocks needed to evoke these emotions.
Pull the strings of my heart baby, and you get my vote ;)
Edit: a demo that makes me think can do the trick for me as well from time to time. Best is the combination between these two, which I guess is the reason I am such a big fan of Hollowman. |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Quote:Is there anything such as "pc effects"?
When he said PC effects the first thing that came in my mind was newschool 2d bitmap manipulation effects like filters, fire effect, radial blur, bump mapping, water effects, swirl plasmas, etc. It's what is usually harder to do on C64 without making it ugly, use chunky blocks and can't be faked with VIC tricks (except if someone prooves me wrong :) and generally they are not C64 specific. This is why HCL didn't want to code such effects I think. His style is in oldschool/midschool (amiga) era. I think 3d dots, zoomers, plasmas and rotozoomers, flat polygons are first done well on the Amiga. But the above mentioned newschool effects (oh and those envmapped torii ;) where first done on the PC I think and then copied on AGA machines. That's why the are called PC effects. |
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daison
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 90 |
I think innovation is the keyword for good demos. Either it's innovative on a technical level, content - or presentational level.
So to see a new record breaking routine, or a just a new way of telling a story, it's all innovative and makes the existance of the product worthwile.
Personally, I dig the tech stuff the best though.
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: Quote:Is there anything such as "pc effects"?
When he said PC effects the first thing that came in my mind was newschool 2d bitmap manipulation effects like filters, fire effect, radial blur, bump mapping, water effects, swirl plasmas, etc. It's what is usually harder to do on C64 without making it ugly, use chunky blocks and can't be faked with VIC tricks (except if someone prooves me wrong :) and generally they are not C64 specific. This is why HCL didn't want to code such effects I think. His style is in oldschool/midschool (amiga) era. I think 3d dots, zoomers, plasmas and rotozoomers, flat polygons are first done well on the Amiga. But the above mentioned newschool effects (oh and those envmapped torii ;) where first done on the PC I think and then copied on AGA machines. That's why the are called PC effects.
Ah yes! This is what a mean about PC effects. Don't get me wrong I don't look down on these effects at all, I just refer to them as PC effects because they didn't start out on this system.
I mean it STILL takes great coding skills to get this stuff working at a good frame rate. I'm pretty sure if someone said to people back in 1984 that they would be able to do realtime filled full screen vectors, people would have laughed. I think the closest thing back then was the cheats used in games like Chronus Rift, Rescue On Fractulos.
Maybe it's my imagination but I see more and more PC type effects then VIC effects. I mean grant it we get some here and there but not many. Design seems to out weigh technique now? You would think in this age with emulators and so much other stuff that people would be bleeding the VIC? Maybe it hit the top?
But anyway design is great, technique is great and music/presentation all makes the demo. But can you honestly say that a 1 file demo could beat a DEM or EoD? Is it possible? I mean I seen some great one-filers from Oxyron, Crest, Camelot. But can you compare the 2? One-files to Multi-loads? Is it a fair to even look at them the same way?
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
They're different kinds of demo, which you don't compare like that, just like 4k is a category on its own. :)
The supreme discipline is still the (2-sider) demo, though :D |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I think knoeki found nice words.
realtime audiovisual art
Still it lacks major things.
I dont think it has to be art (NO, Im not discussing "art" here), you could replace it by "show off".
And to ME it does not have to be audiovisual in a sense.
Take i.e. the first vertical rastersplits. They looked lame but were cool for their CODE not their effect.
I value if something LOOKS nice but also if it is DONE nice.
Hell I still have a decimal-flag-demo on my todo-list :)
I would also qualify static effects for a demo(part).
So something is a demo when someone calls it that.
It like a "thought" *g*
Sidenote (personal) EoD put some new limits to certain effects (maybe some of them hard to beat) but it only (lucky us) covered certain areas as the new DYCP record or Sounddemons new sample routine at X made quite obvious. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
come back in 5-10 years.. if you have a fond memory of it.. that says it.. same with any creative form, music , art etc.
yes there's the obvious music / graphics but the underlying code that makes it. Bit like a very nice super car, you see the shell of it, but the engine is as important.
I don't believe there IS a best demo, in the sense of there is more to come. That isn't being disrespectful to booze, crest , Xenon and the LOADS of others, their work is great.
I'm sure people who are responsible for such great productions, the multitude of others have a mutual respect for their rivals and are always trying to out do each other. I witnessed this a bit at x95, when reflex who won (with radio napalm) was looking at TMR's code for a part he made.
If it pushes things even more, that's a good thing. so yep I'm sure there are more great things to come. |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Very great points we have in this thread, and looking back on the whole scene who would have ever thought it would have got to this point with the types of demos and graphics we see nowadays.
Imagine someone coming to you in the late 80's saying filled vectors REALTIME would be possible? Or plasmas, or the advanced graphics formats that we have today??
I just really can't wait to see what else is coming down the line. More vic trick? Or have we squeezed what we can out of it?
I can't wait to see. Respect to ALL who keep this train running!!
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quote:More vic trick? Or have we squeezed what we can out of it? I actually just invented a new VIC trick a few days ago. Or at least a new effect done with the VIC that hasn't been done before. Whether it REALLY is a new VIC trick is always debatable. But anyway, I think I can say that I'm pretty sure we haven't seen everything the VIC can do yet. Especially when it comes to combining pure hardware tricks with software effects.
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: Quote:More vic trick? Or have we squeezed what we can out of it? I actually just invented a new VIC trick a few days ago. Or at least a new effect done with the VIC that hasn't been done before. Whether it REALLY is a new VIC trick is always debatable. But anyway, I think I can say that I'm pretty sure we haven't seen everything the VIC can do yet. Especially when it comes to combining pure hardware tricks with software effects.
See between you, xbow, graham, hcl, krill and a bunch of others. You guys keep pushing the hardware/software limits. Is there a limit, and who would have thought 8 years ago or so people was saying the scene was dead...
Go figure!
And I am pretty sure you have PLENTY of tricks on your disks!
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The Hobbit
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 7 |
My take has always been if you got nice effects, but whats onthe screen looks like crap, then whats the use.
I thik whats really impressive if you take someone who knows nothing about the c64 or demos and look at a demo and have them say, "wow, that looks pretty cool." Thats makes a demo to me. Showing people a demostration of what the c64 can do.
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