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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Emulator Awareness Campaign - your help needed
Evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
I want your help and support for an idea I had when I saw the emufuxxor of Krill/Plush a year or so ago.
The Emulator Awareness campaign.
In a nutshell, it is a small program that you can link to any release (or allow it to load the main part) that will show a "nag screen" in emulators, explaining that the user is using an emulator and has to be aware of the experience he will get not being the real thing.
This can prevent a lot of wrong criticism and bug reports, and, at least in our book, is a more mature and efficient way to deal with the emulator phenomena than not caring about "emulamers".
Read about it here:
http://www.cupid.de/eac/
What I need from you now, is a list of problems that emulators have, what bad experience users get and that there is not a way around them for the developer.
This data will be used to fill the "where emulators fail" section on the site, which will be featured in the nag screen.
Thanks for your attention, flame away
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Chuck Austen is a terrible writer, first he killed Uncanny and now he's gonna kill New X-Men!
Well, you said "flame away", but you didn't say about what .. |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Threadjacking will be punished with bare bottom spanking at X.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Oops. In that case let me just add that I support your initiative and will probably use it in front of my future productions.
That better? :) |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
You just make some more productions, missing good FOCUS demos :-)
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Good idea. When i make another demo (in 2032 maybe) i'll probably use it. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
The most annoying Things while watching Demos with an Emulator:
Sound+Picture is not synchronized
Especially VICE has a soundbuffer, so that the soundfx
appear too late
There are interruptions, no smooth flow
For example, if the OS wants to swap some Cache,the demo flickers
Smooth scrolling is not possible
Thats mainly because of different framerates. On the C64, some games have such a smooth scrolling, that after switching off the c64, there is an optical illusion. Forget that on a PC!
Although there have been enormous advances, the colors are wrong.
There are also some more subtle Drawbacks:
The Floppy does not "click"
Most PCs have a Ventilator
It takes minutes to start a demo, compared with seconds on the real thing
Standard-Emuflame-Protection: I do like Emulators. I use them to code. BUT they are not perfect.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Good idea overall. Two things
1) Might be irritating to people who know exactly what they're doing, but don't have access to C64 at the moment, unless can be easily/quickly bypassed
2) Be prepared to improve the emu detection routine over time |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Cadaver: You are right, however it is pressing space once more, not much of a problem there. Otherwise we'd have to emulate a "cookie" by putting data on the disk (maybe in 18 00 tracks), but I'd rather not do that as some demos rightfully do that themselves :-)
The upgrading thing would be Krill's to do :-) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 896 |
okay :) It starts again.
I think adding nag-screens is childish. very much so. Emulators are very very very very useful. It saves a lot of time when I can use crosscompilers. Also I don't have to walk around carrying 100 disks whenever I got to my groupmates to work on a demo.
it's fast, easy and always there on my laptop.
that does not mean I don't like the real thing better...
short : don't add nag screens... If I like a production, I'll remove the nag screen if I have to (hurrah! cracking relives!!)
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Chuck Austen IS a terrible writer. Not only does he make Lorna a raving lunatic, but there is also the infamous 'threatening Iceman's head to piss on it'-scene, that will haunt me forever. And if he gets his hands on Morrison's superb Emma Frost....ouch!
What? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
The most annoying thing about emulators I think is that it just doesn't look like the real thing. On a real c64 it all blends together and looks both bigger and less blocky than on an emulator, where it's small and looks like Lego bricks.
It's like seeing a real sunset compared to a picture of a sunset. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
@Werner: that means they'll have to code a nagscreen-protection so you won't be able to remove it? :)
@Dane: I'll stop reading New X-Men in serial anyway, and wait until the trades to decide. I'd rather spend my money on Morrison's new DC stuff.
What? |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Quote: okay :) It starts again.
I think adding nag-screens is childish. very much so. Emulators are very very very very useful. It saves a lot of time when I can use crosscompilers. Also I don't have to walk around carrying 100 disks whenever I got to my groupmates to work on a demo.
it's fast, easy and always there on my laptop.
that does not mean I don't like the real thing better...
short : don't add nag screens... If I like a production, I'll remove the nag screen if I have to (hurrah! cracking relives!!)
Reading is a hard thing to do it seems.
Noone forces you to add the nag screen, you can do it if you want to make people aware of what they see in emulators is not the real thing. You can also remove the nag screen in a demo you like, we don't give a fuck.
What you fail to see is that this is an idea to _promote_ emulators, and stop all those "emulators suck" zionists.
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
if you put the effort of creating such crap into some new demo project then it would help a lot more.
fuck it, if I like to watch a demo in emulator, hey then I do it and I dont really care for childish crap like emufaxxor or whatever that crap was named.
I guess most of us are old enough to know that nothing beats the real thing anyways but emulation is not a crime!
It is totally nonsense to waste energy on stuff that none cares about. if you dont like your stuff emulated on pc then just dont produce anything...
this shittalk over and over again sucks donkey dick.
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
And in the time you used posting about that here, you could have produced 20 new demos aswell. Don't try to tell me how to waste my time, the emufuxxor code is there, the web site took me 30 minutes and that is all the work we need. Using this _could_ shut up all the people complaining about emulators and refuse to do stuff for it, therefor your outburst is totally useless.
Noone forces you to use it, it is a nice to have. And I rather spend half an hour on an idea like that than make another logo for a release that "will soon come" and never arrives.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Well, I'd recommend something simple and general like "You are running on an emulator. Video/audio experience may not correspond to a real C64, and there may be execution bugs. Please consider running this production on a real C64 before forming an opinion."
If specific downsides of emulators are listed, it can turn into a disinformation contest, and may be funny later as emulators improve in some respects, or some downsides are simply nonexistent. For example, CCS64 on DOS can have smooth scrolling and doesn't have noticeable audio delay.
Btw. are bad reviews/comments/flames of demos because of emulator bugs an actual, real, and serious problem? |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Full ACK cadaver, no need to go into details, this is what the page is for.
And this one will stay pretty generic aswell. Much in the vein of "known problems are:"
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
Yes? Still waiting... :) |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Intensity WTFAYBOA?
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
In earnest, i don't dislike the idea about linking that kind of a message to a c64-production. Especially when it comes to SID-Emulation which is not perfect yet on an emu. I wouldn't like it when people rate my music on an emu while it is the real c64 and a new SID model that will play my tunes with 100% quality (Have I said quality? Uh...)
But...
1. Could the creator of an emulator learn how to avoid those linked messages and built in an option named "Avoid Nag Screens"?
2. Don't we trust in C64-Emulation on a PC or are we just too unpatient that we want to introduce nag screens, since Emulators WILL be able to emulate the c64 in all ways 100% one day (it will take a long time, maybe some years, but I believe that they *will* reach it to emulate a c64 for 100% in the next future) ?
Just some points to think about.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
The nag screens will disappear when the emulator behaviour difference, that the fuxxor routine uses for detection, is eliminated. Depending on the routine and encryption used, bypassing it by a "cheat" as you suggest can be hard..
Btw. another question, if the nagrequester acts as a loader, will the program to be loaded be heavily encrypted? People will perhaps reverse-engineer this, just for the challenge if not otherwise.
Urgh.. I hope Rich doesn't get into the defuxxoring business (possibly with a fakelabel), if this becomes popular :)
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Emulators are very useful tools.
TDJ - Yeah, I somtimes wish I'd go for trades instead. Bit too lazy to end my subscriptions, I suppose. However, having said that, my hopes are up for the Reload-event supposed to take place after Morrison's run ends. If it results in CC bringing back Betsy in XXM it can't be all bad!
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
I've got Power64 on Mac. I haven't had any problems with smooth scrolling... it even leaves a trail on the screen. I have noticed that the sound and video aren't exactly synchronized. And as for the actual image on screen... that's more the fault of higher-quality monitors than it is an emulator. If you've got a video card that supports RCA-out, hook it up to a TV and run the demo there. THAT will look nice again.
I'm not sure how I feel about having a nag screen, though. If you're going to do one, maybe have it detail the best way to view the demo ON the emulator. For instance:
"You're using an emulator. To get the best experience, turn SID filters OFF, run in PAL mode at exact CPU cycle with full 1541 emulator ON."
Nothing irks me more when I get halfway through a demo and it starts using some IRQ loader that totally baffles the emulator, and forces me to restart. Ergh.
AJ
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
i wouldnt even spend 30 minutes on such a pointless idea
i'd like to get my hands on some of grant morrison's
older stuff, like st swithins day and new adventures
of hitler.
but atleast theres been a new print of stray toasters
by bill sienkiewicz |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
@Dane: I've gone from 30 to 3 subscriptions (New X-Men, Planetary, Powers) within a year. New X-Men & Powers are both almost done for me, Planetary will also end within the year I guess. I kinda miss going to my lcs every week but the joy of reading a story in one go makes up for it. Plus all those tpb's look really cool on the shelf :) I'm thinking about starting to collect some other stuff though of which I'm not sure it will be traded (Wanted, Demo).
@Hollowman: Grant rocks, he is my fave writer. I've got the complete Invisibles collection in trades, his Animal Man in trades, all issues of the Filth and I even got his Doom Patrol & Flex Mentallo stuff, bought it on E-bay a few years ago :) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Check out Zenith. Probably one of the best. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Morrisons "St.Swithins Day" is a really great one. Love the neat style of the inking, and the idea of scaring Margaret Thatcher is just great. "Neurotic Boy Outsider". :-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I heard many good things about Zenith but I've never seen any issues or tpb's of it yet. Same for St.Swithin's day and his other older stuff :(
Btw, check out this thread about Morrison: http://www.millarworld.biz/index.php?showtopic=20698
I used to be on Barbelith.com, they had some real good discussions there, but a while ago they closed all the lurker accounts .. and a lurker I was.
Say, is anybody interested in my Invisibles rap? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quote: The nag screens will disappear when the emulator behaviour difference, that the fuxxor routine uses for detection, is eliminated. Depending on the routine and encryption used, bypassing it by a "cheat" as you suggest can be hard..
Btw. another question, if the nagrequester acts as a loader, will the program to be loaded be heavily encrypted? People will perhaps reverse-engineer this, just for the challenge if not otherwise.
Urgh.. I hope Rich doesn't get into the defuxxoring business (possibly with a fakelabel), if this becomes popular :)
The check routines used are actually quite hard to come by. According to Graham who started working on a really really sophisticated emulator, to emulate the things some of those check routines test (i.e., sprite display bugs in extreme sprite positions, register update each cycle instead of each line, etc.) would slow down the emulators massively.
yet, there will be the time when pc's are fast enough to run such an emulator.
at that point, it might be hard to find things that are not perfectly emulated. still, reaching this point will take years, imho. but then, when the hardware emulation is that sophisticated, all demo effects should work on that emulator. together with the already implemented pal emulation, the experience will be close enough to the real thing to prevent us from inaccurate demo reviews, imho.
but things like bad display timing emulation and inaccurate sound synchronicity due to the non-real time environment and the pc monitor's refresh rate not being exactly the one of a c64, resulting in dropped or double frames here and there, will always remain. yet, these are problems common to pc demos, someone regularly watching demos on the pc won't even recognize that. real 50 fps effects without frame drops and with synchronous sound is a thing only a real c64 nerd pays attention to, and such a person does most likely possess a real c64 and knows the difference.
as for encryption, i won't use that feature again. a nag screen is something different than blocking an emulator, it's easy to press space. and removing such a screen that is just plainly linked in front of a program would be rather ridiculous than challenging, in contrast to removing the emu protection emu-fuxx0r imposed on a program.
fenek/arise succeeded in coding an automatic un-fuxx0r, which is quite an impressive thing to do. but then, having a look at the source code of that, i once more realised that you only have to find that one single weak point of the protection chain and break it there. very similar to cracking a copy protection or hacking into a network computer =) trying to code a protection hard to overcome, you'll always only end up with playing cat and mouse with the crackers while you could rather code stunning demos. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Instead of wasting valuable effect-coding time on emu-detectors, how about just writing a message in a scroller or something, explaining that IF you run it on an emulator, you're missing out because of this and that. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Hey, you probably honed emu-detection to science :) so I definitely believe you but this phrase arouses my curiousity "register update each cycle instead of each line" .. aren't CCS64 and VICE supposed to be doing that already if they claim to be "cycle exact"? Or hmm.. do they still emulate the chips in "chunks" of several cycles by kludging the mid-line chip reads/writes somehow? (not directed to Krill in particular, anyone can answer) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
By registers I think VIC-registers is what's meant (not a/x/y/etc.) For instance $d016-splitting doesn't seem to work on any emulators.
Another thing is that updating of gfx-data during a rasterline is inaccurate. This can be seen in my old vertical raster routine from "Produkthandler Kom Her"/Camelot, where each bar has a bug on the top. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
cruzer: well yes, chip registers, of course. not only vic, also cia and sid registers, afaik. and well, i did not intend to find emu-check routines in the first place, they just came naturally when i saw that some of my code just didn't run as expected in the emulators. most noticable where update bugs with kefrens bars and other stuff using mid-line updates (use an emu to have a look at the vandalism news 34 intro i made some time ago, some areas that ought to be black aren't and thus, display garbage, iirc). and yes, current emulators do perform a heavy load of tricks to speed up the emulation for the expense of accuracy. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
tdj, in sweden zenith was published in the magazine magnum,
but i believe there was another episode later on which
didnt appear there. another swedish magazine called inferno
included stuff such as grant morrison's doom patrol, alan moore's swamp thing, sandman,hellblazer and shade the changing man. ofcourse a magazine with such content only survived for like 10 issues or something.
kill your boyfriend by morrison was not weird enough,but felt quite fresh anyway and along with arkham asylum it is
one of the few albums by him i have been able to find in the shops around here. until the invisibles, which i
for economical reasons havent really started checking out yet |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Hollowman, TDJ and others:
My GIVE-A-FUCK-O-METER about your graphic novel discussion here is below zero, same as yours about the topic at hand. Could you please have the courtesy to take that discussion somewhere else? Thank you.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Hollowman, TDJ and others:
My GIVE-A-FUCK-O-METER about your graphic novel discussion here is below zero, same as yours about the topic at hand. Could you please have the courtesy to take that discussion somewhere else? Thank you.
But .. but .. I want you to spank me .. isn't that obvious?
Snif .. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Erm, wouldn't it be the easiest way to simply ask the VICE team or Per Hakan Sundell to implement such a nag screen into the emulators? ;-))) |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Steppe, that is a bad idea, as it'll make developing on an emulator a nightmare. Furthermore, it will be cracked :-)
The idea of the EAC is that the developer has the choice to tell his audience that there will be issues he can't control.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
EAC should also provide extensive emulator-info. Reccomended versions and tips how to optimise setup for the best accuracy of emulation and such things.
Nag screen should contain link to the EAC site.
roman |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
creamd, that it will.
The info should come from you guys, hence I asked here :-)
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
I'm into the idea! But how about automating the process, and keeping it simple and standardized... black screen, small, modest white letters telling us "Emu (not the bird hahaha) detected, this demo will not be like the real thing" (okay, maybe not *exactly* this text). It stays on there for about 2-3 seconds, and then the demo begins. If the real thing is detected, no preliminary screen. It's that simple.
*raving mode on*
If everyone does this, it'll be as if all c64 movies are starting with the famous, standardized TFX intro (except that ours is so much cooler and shorter). After a while, you don't even see it anymore, yet - it's there, and then we can all point and laugh at reviewers using the emoo and giving the wrong impression of a demo, going "h4H, n00B! r33D tah d3m00!!11". Or we're normal people and we don't, but at least we know we can do it if we want to. It's a peace of mind I wouldn't immediately say no to.
On an apparently related note: classic X-Men rule! (except for Jubilee, but noone likes her anyway) Gimme Wolverine, 'Gambite', Rogue and Mystique already OooYAarGh!
*crazy mode off. Well, for a little while* |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
*told you - it's only for a little while!*
Well, if the EAC results in the creation of a Demo Cracking Scene, sign me up! Just think how cool it would be to see your demo, cracked +X! That'd mean a really neat cracktro in front of your demo -which might be interpreted as a nag screen in itself, but this aside- and then a black screen where you get to select things such as these:
* EAC nag screen OFF (Y/N):
* lamest part of demo (you know which one) OFF (Y/N):
* Space to switch between parts OFF (Y/N):
* Secret parts play during demo (Y/N):
* Unlimited BOBs OFF (Y/N):
* Goldrush scrolltexts ON (Y/N):
* (if ON) Add Goldrush scrolltexts in every part (Y/N):
* Skip to end part (Y/N):
And of course, all this in a tight IFFL-linked, one-side package. I mean, how cool is that? ;)
*insane mode OFF (Y/N): Yes*
Back to drawing stuff... |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
You still havent considered the following..
I havent seen a 100% correct emu-detection routine to
date, and I tried them all.
They sure detect the Emu, but also some C64's (and especially some 128's) as an Emu & even sometimes crash
the machine.
@Krill: as long as PC remains PC, it will never fully
emulate the C64 100%, regardless of HW power, imho.
Besides the Emu disadvantages listed by others, the main
thing for me is kinda irrelevant for this idea.
To put is simply, it completely lacks the C64 FEEL.
When using an Emu, I dont feel like I'm doing anything
C64 related & thats kinda the point, isnt it?
@Vip: irc meeting tue/wed.. usual time & place :)
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1922 |
What a senseless discussion....
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote:
What a senseless discussion....
l8r
Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC
He should have allowed us to continue our comics-talk, it could have saved this thread. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Hmm.. I'd like to see some preview download of the program, even if there's no finished propaganda text yet. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
While coding such a pointless code, you can do one for those who produces their demos on an emulator, so people know why it might look odd on a real C-64. |
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Roger
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 2 |
Well Cupid, then what about quitting the whole Emu scene then? Fanatics like you simply overlook the fact, that you try to establish your idea of the "real C64 world" in an forum, that is dedicated to Emulator stuff etc. 98% of the actual C64 development and progress uses the PC. Maybe you should also cut your internet access aswell.
I think I should try something different: a nag screen for all "real 1337 sceners" out there that even try to ruin the last breathe of the C64.
So please Cupid, stop using 21th century technique for your agitation. Use pen and paper stuff. That would be real cool and only "100% C64 style". This kind of hyprocrisis leads to the well-knwon term: L A M E (R)! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352 |
did you even understand what was cupids original idea dumbnut? pfft |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Quote: While coding such a pointless code, you can do one for those who produces their demos on an emulator, so people know why it might look odd on a real C-64.
Guys... Making a screen informing emu-users that stuff won't look as good as on a real C64, surely won't hurt emu-users. It will only inform them that what they do is wrong, and that they should be punished. Eeh... I mean, it'll only inform them that the demos won't (most likely) look as good as they're supposed to. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: did you even understand what was cupids original idea dumbnut? pfft
Yeah he is dumbnut. (1st post and starting with flame...) |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
Are there really that many people who are dumb enough to not realize that a demo will look different on an emulator that there needs to be a warning screen? Cripes! |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Quote: Are there really that many people who are dumb enough to not realize that a demo will look different on an emulator that there needs to be a warning screen? Cripes!
Yes there are, as you probably also know yourself. Maybe they know it, but normally doesn't think about it.
(dunno if it's a matter of being dumb - f.e. some of the people who have been away from the c64 in centuries may not remember 100% how the C64 looks like (etc))
Again: What can it possibly hurt? Maybe it was the use of the word "nag-screen" that provocated some of the emu-only users. But a simple "press space"-screen surely shouldn't upset anyone. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
btw: coding something for c64 on pc is definatley different than watching a c64 demo. i still don't like the sid-music with that fake-sidchip-sound. an info screen isn't that bad...most of my friends don't know anything about those old machines such like atari, zx speccy or commodore but they see the stuff and they do like thos old games.
giana sisters rules (mario bros is bad bad!) ;-) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
I have this crazy idea for an emulator *extra option* - I dont know if it possible but the idea is to have a 144 colour mode (why you ask?) what I was thinking was, the emulator could calculate a single 144 colour image from two 16 colour images and still display the usual number of images per second. So images like IFLI`s would look really nice :) |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
>Yes there are, as you probably also know yourself. Maybe >they know it, but normally doesn't think about it.
I suppose I just can't understand being so disrespectful to the author as to judge their work based solely on viewing it on an emulator.
>Again: What can it possibly hurt? Maybe it was the use of >the word "nag-screen" that provocated some of the emu-only >users. But a simple "press space"-screen surely shouldn't >upset anyone.
My thoughts exactly. Isn't it the perogative of the author to put whatever they want in their demos? |
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V-12
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 206 |
heya Cupid! Well you have good idea but also this is an problem for real C64 users. I have added +60k into my C64 and when I was watching great demo called Insomnia, the screen showed me that I use emulator (!). Also old Emufux00r doesn't work properly (especially with c128d but on my C64 it showed from time to time red screen). So your project would be very clever. Also I think that this is possible to use some disc read errors checkers :) Star Commander at this time doesn't trasfer bugs from the 5'25 disc :) Greetings! |
